English Votes for English Laws and North Wales

Nicholas Dakin Excerpts

Wednesday 1st July 2015 Westminster Hall

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) on obtaining the debate. The debate has been attended by 23 Members, which shows the interest in Parliament, although it is odd that no Plaid Cymru Members attended. However, the nationalist position was put well by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart).

The devolution genie is well and truly out of the bottle, which is probably a good thing, as it allows people to make decisions closer to their place of impact. However, here in the United Kingdom devolution is permissive, asymmetric and uneven. There is an understandable need to devolve more powers and responsibility to the English regions, but the thorny question is how to do that in a balanced, proper way. We have separate Assemblies in Wales, Northern Ireland and London, with a Parliament in Scotland, but nothing in England between the UK Government and local authorities. The space is now being filled with a rush to devolve powers to city regions such as Greater Manchester, which raises significant questions about accountability and generates a debate about the value and purpose of the United Kingdom, what powers it is appropriate to keep at which level, and what powers should be devolved and to whom. Those are difficult questions with uncertain answers.

Into that quagmire the Prime Minister went on the morning after the Scottish people spoke so clearly and strongly in favour of remaining in the United Kingdom, when he chose to proclaim boldly on the steps of Downing Street the notion of English votes for English laws. It was neither the time nor the place for him to behave as the leader of a political party rather than as the United Kingdom’s Prime Minister. Mischief making and political posturing are not the way to determine how our nation should proceed on this difficult question. It is far too important for that. The challenge demands statesmanship, careful thought and inclusive action.

We are sometimes obsessed with borders, but the reality, as today’s debate demonstrates, is that real people do not live contained and constrained by borders. As my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) perceptively observed, in reality the border does not exist. Real life is complicated and messy. In 2012, the McKay commission was quite properly given the task of considering how the House of Commons might deal with legislation that affected only part of the United Kingdom, following the devolution of certain legislative powers to the Scottish Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly and the National Assembly for Wales. In the report of March 2013, McKay concluded that the

“use of a specially-constituted public bill committee with an English or English-and-Welsh party balance is the minimum needed as an effective means of allowing the voice from England (or England-and-Wales) to be heard; it would retain the opportunity at report stage for amendments to be made to a bill to implement compromises between the committee’s amendments and the Government’s view, or even— though we would expect rarely—overriding in the House what was done in committee”.

Done in the right way, that has the potential to be a sensible reform, which would strengthen English and Welsh voices without creating two classes of MP. It must now be properly and fully considered.

We must not inadvertently undermine the union of nations that is the United Kingdom by pushing forward hasty proposals drawn up in secret or pursuing partisan positions. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire is right when he says that that needs the utmost scrutiny. My hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn is also right when he warns of the danger that English votes for English laws will be a sticking plaster that causes more problems, and when he calls for a UK convention on constitutional rights.

[Albert Owen]

One of the best examples of the anomalies in the proposal was transport in London. Is that an England-only or a London-only issue? It is not just a question of the three nations outside England; questions arise within England.

[Nic Dakin]

My hon. Friend is right, and further devolution across England raises more such questions. That is why the issue is complicated and messy, needing time to get it right, rather than a rush to something that will make things much worse.

Hon. Members have raised important questions, which should be properly considered. We need to ensure that the voices of residents of North Wales continue to be heard through their elected representatives. Wales is a small country, but it is well integrated within England, as we have heard. It has received more powers in the 16 years since the Welsh Assembly was created: it now has primary law-making powers, and it is getting financial powers in the form of control over stamp duty, landfill taxes and business rates. The Government, as the former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones), reminded us, will introduce a Wales Bill later this year which will devolve further powers to Wales in the areas of energy, transport and the environment. We welcome that.

It is right that we recognise the need to reflect the devolution settlement in the way that Westminster works, but we must also take into account the integrated nature of the economy and society in North Wales. Many hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), made it clear how closely interrelated the economies are.

[Mr David Jones]

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston, because he identified a democratic deficit where English Members are concerned. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Wales Bill offers a good opportunity to address those problems?

[Nic Dakin]

The Wales Bill represents an opportunity to explore those issues. I did not hear my hon. Friend say what the right hon. Gentleman did; I heard something quite different.

Economically the border with Wales is porous. Some 90% of the Welsh population—2.7 million people—live within 50 miles of the border on the Welsh side, and a further 13.7 million live within 50 miles of it on the English side. In aggregate, 30% of the population of Wales and England, or more than 16 million people, live within 50 miles of the border between the two countries. It is estimated that 100,000 people travel between Wales and England for work, and just over half of that criss-cross border traffic is accounted for by people commuting in and out of North Wales. The A55 trunk road, which runs across North Wales connecting Holyhead with Chester, is crucial for business and residents.

Some people argue for Wales to take powers over income tax, but the Welsh Government already have the power to hold a referendum on whether and when to take those powers and the current Welsh Government do not see that as a priority. They argue that that the more pressing issue of fair funding is the priority that must be resolved sooner rather than later. There is a danger that if income tax were to be included in EVEL and it was handled in a cack-handed way, thousands of workers who cross the border to work could find that their elected MP had a limited say over the income tax they would pay. That would be against their democratic rights.

Many people from North Wales use health services over the border in England. We have heard about the personal experience of the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (James Davies) in that respect. About 21,000 English patients are registered with Welsh or Welsh-registered GPs. Approximately 15,000 Welsh residents are registered with English or English-registered GPs. That means that about 6,000 patients flow into Welsh primary care from England. In addition, approximately 50,000 Welsh residents travelled to non-Welsh providers for treatment, including emergency and elective patients. That far outweighs the number of non-Welsh patients admitted to Welsh hospitals; typically it is Welsh patients using specialist services at large hospitals in England, as we have heard in the debate.

Some 138 million journeys take place each year on roads and trains across the border—an average of 2.6 million journeys each week. The UK Department for Transport specifies and funds three of the four rail franchises that provide cross-border rail services between England and Wales, with the Welsh Government largely responsible for the fourth—the Wales and borders franchise. That franchise provides cross-border rail services to Manchester, Shrewsbury, Birmingham and Crewe, in addition to all rail services wholly within Wales, and is controlled by the Welsh Government. The UK Government have stated that Wales will benefit from HS2 because of additional capacity and reduced journey times on the west coast main line. Because of that it was considered a UK-wide project and no Barnett consequential was given to Wales.

All the areas I have outlined—the economy, health and transport—are examples of how defining an English policy area is not straightforward. That means that careful thought must be given to any proposals to restrict the voting rights of Welsh MPs. In any future arrangement, North Wales MPs need a full voice on matters affecting their people. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) perceptively said, everyone needs to be an equal Member in this House. I hope that the Deputy Leader of the House will unequivocally answer the question of what an English law is.

Use of the Chamber (Youth Parliament)

Nicholas Dakin Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

The hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) is completely right to say that the quality of Youth Parliament debates in this Chamber continues to be exemplary. The hon. Member for South Antrim (Danny Kinahan) was also right to mention the inspiration given to the young people of the Youth Parliament by allowing them to come into this Chamber and debate.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I want to commend the member of the Youth Parliament for my constituency, Aaron Addidle, who attends Regent House school and has all the qualities of a potential MP or Member of the Legislative Assembly. He shows that today’s youth are interested. Sometimes people deride them, but today’s youth in my constituency have great qualities.

[Nic Dakin]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to commend that young person, and there are many similar young people up and down the land. School councils meet daily, weekly and monthly for debates and conversations. Indeed, I recently met the school councils of Lincoln Gardens and St Augustine Webster primary schools in my constituency. They are typical examples of what is going on.

The Deputy Leader of the House made a good point when she drew attention to the way in which issues have been raised for debate in the Youth Parliament. There have been regional meetings of young people across the country to discuss a variety of issues, and those issues have eventually been brought here. It is right and proper that the debates happen here as the pinnacle of all those activities, and that is why I am happy to support the motion.

Oral Answers to Questions

Nicholas Dakin Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Dr Coffey]

Hon. Members had the opportunity to vote in the previous Parliament, and I suspect that my hon. Friend and I were in the same Lobby at the time. The Procedure Committee revisited the situation, and could do so again if Members made representations to it, but I repeat that the Government have no plans to change the sitting hours of the House.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

I welcome the hon. Lady to her post; I am sure she will perform extremely well, as she has in other posts. The Procedure Committee considered this matter in the previous Parliament, but does she agree that it would be opportune for the Committee to pick it up again when it is reconstituted, so that current Members can comment on the sitting hours of the House?

[Dr Coffey]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his welcome, and I congratulate him on, and welcome him to, his new position too. It is not for the Government to determine the business of the Procedure Committee; it is up to the Members selected to serve on the Committee to do that.

Procedure of the House

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Thursday 26th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

I am surprised that we are having this debate at this time, and I think that it does us no good.

The Chair of the Procedure Committee, the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), spoke with great eloquence about the fact that the Committee had not been treated seriously in relation to this matter. The Leader of the House himself said that the motion could have been presented to the House in 2011, four years ago. In 2013, an exchange of information between the Procedure Committee and the then Leader of the House established that if it were to be presented, it should be presented on a Monday, a Tuesday or a Wednesday. In 2015, the Leader of the House approached us and we had a convivial discussion about what should happen. We went away from that meeting with the understanding that the Leader of the House was working with the Chair of the Procedure Committee to ensure that no such motion would be moved other than at an appropriate time. I would say, Mr Speaker, that the last gasp of this Parliament is not an appropriate time to make a decision of this sort, and I hope that Members of Parliament recognise that.

Petitions and e-petitions

Nicholas Dakin Excerpts

Tuesday 24th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

I rise briefly to commend the comments of the Chair of the Procedure Committee—while he is thanking everybody else perhaps we might thank him for his stewardship of that Committee. I also apologise for joining the debate slightly late as I was in a Statutory Instrument Committee.

In this work the modern world intercepts with our traditions, and the Chair of the Procedure Committee has spelt out clearly why the proposals in the report are the right way to take the issue forward in a way that recognises public interest. There has been a lot of public enthusiasm for e-petitions, as I saw during my involvement with a petition that was created by a constituent and aimed to push the issue of pancreatic cancer up the agenda. E-petitions are a good tool for interacting with the public in an engaging way, but they must be managed properly in how they intercept with this place. The Chair of the Procedure Committee is to be congratulated on setting out a sensible way forward that I hope the House will take advantage of.

Business of the House

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Thursday 12th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

Given the impending end of the Parliament, there might not be time for such a debate, but my right hon. Friend raises an important point. The Government appreciate the importance that the biopharmaceutical industry attaches to the maintenance of inspection facilities for animal products at Heathrow airport. I understand that discussions are taking place between various interested parties, and the Government will follow developments closely and provide any advice needed to assist the possible development of other animal product inspection centres at the airport. I will also ensure that my colleagues at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs are aware of his remarks.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

Yesterday at Prime Minister’s questions, in answer to a question about the learning tax on sixth-form colleges, the Prime Minister appeared to say he would take the matter away and have a look at it. May we have a statement on fair funding for 16 to 18-year-olds, whatever institution they are in?

[Mr Hague]

I cannot add so quickly to what the Prime Minister said at Prime Minister’s questions, but the hon. Gentleman continues to raise the issue assiduously, and I will certainly remind my colleagues in the Department for Education that he has raised it again.

Business of the House

Nicholas Dakin Excerpts

Thursday 5th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

Once again, my hon. Friend brings the House good news from Kettering—and, as I said last week, I suspect that it may continue for some time, because he never fails to do so.

During our next debate on the national health service, it will be important for Members to analyse the figures from Kettering and from other constituencies. In Kettering, there has indeed been an increase in the number of hospital doctors and nurses, and a large increase in the number of operations. Moreover, I note from the figures that I have here—because I was prepared for the good news from Kettering—that there has also been a huge increase in the number of diagnostic tests, and, at the same time, a tremendous decrease in the incidence of hospital infections. Indeed, the incidence of hospital infections throughout the country has virtually halved in the last four and a half years. That is exactly the sort of good news about the health service that people do not hear enough about.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

I recently met representatives of a Scunthorpe firm, Clugston Logistics, who briefed me about the increasing difficulty of recruiting drivers of heavy goods vehicles. The Road Haulage Association estimates that there could be a shortfall of as many as 40,000 if action is not taken. May we have a statement about how the Government are trying to address that very real need by ensuring that we have more UK-resident trained HGV drivers in the future?

[Mr Hague]

That is a legitimate question. Those who travel around the country nowadays will see a great many advertisements for HGV drivers, which reflects the demand. Questions to the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills will take place next week, and will provide an ideal opportunity for the hon. Gentleman to raise the matter directly with the Minister who is responsible for that area of policy.

Business of the House

Nicholas Dakin Excerpts

Thursday 8th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

We begin 2015 with ownership of Tata Steel UK’s long products division uncertain into the future. This is causing great anxiety in steel communities throughout the land. Is it not time that we had a debate in the Chamber about the future for UK steel?

[Mr Hague]

We have just had Department for Business, Innovation and Skills questions, where there were opportunities to raise that. We had an urgent question some weeks ago about the matter, and of course there are continuing concerns. The hon. Gentleman will be able to continue to raise the matter with BIS Ministers. There will also be opportunities to debate the economy in general over the coming months. There is a strongly improved outlook from the British Chambers of Commerce survey published only today. The hon. Gentleman will be able to find many opportunities to continue to pursue the subject, as he always does.

Devolution (Implications for England)

Nicholas Dakin Excerpts

Tuesday 16th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

The details of the Select Committee’s report, of course, are for my colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government, and those matters have also been debated in the House recently. I will certainly draw what the hon. Gentleman has said to the attention of ministerial colleagues. I also point out that part of what is happening with more localism in recent years is the introduction of neighbourhood plans. Over 1,200 parishes, with about 5 million people, have now adopted a neighbourhood plan. They have become a very important factor in planning decisions.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

The English people should be trusted to speak for England. Devolution in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and London was led by referendums, and the early ones were not in favour. Does the Leader of the House believe that Westminster knows best when it comes to the English regions?

[Mr Hague]

I think that many of the cities and regions know best, which is why we are giving them more powers and responsibilities. That is what we are seeing with the agreement with Manchester and the prospect of equivalent deals in many other parts of the country. We are trying to ensure that there is much more local decision making across the cities and regions of the country, in place of decision-making here.

Business of the House

Nicholas Dakin Excerpts

Thursday 4th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

Initially, when I saw the headline about the proportion of repeats, I thought it was talking about speeches by the shadow Chancellor, but it turned out to be about Christmas shows on the BBC. I am sure—I hope—that those in the BBC have been listening to what my hon. Friend says, so although I cannot offer a debate, and in any case a debate before Christmas would be unlikely to change the broadcasters’ Christmas schedules, I hope that they will be trying to give real quality to the public this Christmas season.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

Some 79% of dentists lack confidence in the General Dental Council and are concerned about its impact on dental services. This weekend 28 local dental committees will be meeting to consider a vote of confidence in the General Dental Council. May we have a statement or a debate about the effectiveness of the General Dental Council in relation to dentistry in the United Kingdom?

[Mr Hague]

I clearly cannot offer such a debate at present, although the hon. Gentleman is well aware of how to pursue such a debate, and he can raise the matter at Health questions. I do not want to be drawn into a controversy within the dental profession in any comment that I make now, but there clearly are some concerns and the hon. Gentleman will be able to pursue the matter in all the normal ways in the House.