English Votes for English Laws and North Wales

David Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 1st July 2015 Westminster Hall

[Albert Owen]

I appreciate that intervention from a fellow islander. I was in Jersey yesterday, watching the Island games and cheering Isle of Wight on. The hon. Gentleman makes a serious point. We need a proper convention to consider these issues, because some of the arguments have not been dealt with in great detail in this House. The knee-jerk reaction of having English laws and English votes is not the answer; it is a sticking plaster and it will cause more problems than it will create solutions.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

Is the hon. Gentleman acknowledging that the devolution settlement established in 1999—the creature of the Labour party, of course—is grievously flawed?

[Albert Owen]

The call for devolution in the ’70s was so strong that there had to be a reaction to it from the UK Parliament. I mentioned in my opening remarks that there should have been a more balanced version, with more English devolution, at the time it was introduced. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman would have supported that, because he is now a pragmatist and in favour of the current constitutional settlement.

[Mr Jones]

Yes, but did not the people of the north-east reject devolution to the English regions when it was put to them?

[Albert Owen]

Obviously, that happened. If it had been done at the same time as the London Mayor, and perhaps at the same time as another region, perhaps others would have clamoured for it later. I accept that that was an error. However, the right hon. Gentleman’s party, which opposed devolution at that time, has now wholly embraced it, so the Labour party has done his party a favour, moving it forward in many ways. The right hon. Gentleman, a pragmatic Secretary of State who wanted more devolution for Wales and for the rest of the UK, is evidence of that. I welcome the fact that many Conservative Members of Parliament have taken this journey, but I want the direction of the journey to be clear in future.

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[Albert Owen]

The hon. Lady was a North Wales Member of the Assembly. My criticism is not just about the institution or the Government in Cardiff Bay. North Wales Assembly Members should be making a stronger case for North Wales. That is what I am doing today, as a North Wales MP. I will argue, when I have a chance to develop my argument without interventions, that there needs to be representation from North Wales MPs in this debate.

The debate has gone a bit sterile post-Scottish referendum, partly because of the Prime Minister’s reaction on the morning after the referendum result, which I very much welcomed. Instead of being statesmanlike and trying to strengthen the Union after the referendum result, he chose to talk about one part of the UK: England. The Union is not strengthened by isolating and talking about one part of it. Unionism must be about the whole UK. That is why I am arguing for North Wales MPs having a strong voice and being equal in this UK Parliament. We are all elected under the same franchise and we should be allowed to debate and vote on the same rules and regulations that are before this House, and there should be no exemption. No Parliament will succeed if it has two tiers of representative. We all have the same mandate and we are here to represent our constituents and the UK, but we will not be able to do that if we go down the avenue proposed by the Conservatives. That is the gist of my argument. I will put some detail on it in the next seven or eight minutes, after which I will sit down and allow other hon. Members to contribute.

Devolution has to be more than just a theory: it has to be practical and real because it concerns services, such as health and transport, which are often provided east-west in the UK. Most decisions on transport that affect Wales are made here in the Department for Transport. The debacle over the west coast main line affects not just my constituents, but the whole of North Wales and the whole of England. It is an interconnector and a corridor between Ireland and London, going through North Wales. It would be crazy for North Wales MPs not to have a say or not to be able to question the Secretary of State when big decisions go wrong, such as when millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money is squandered by errors in the franchise process. That affects my constituency and services to my constituents. I travel on that train every week, and I know the composition of its passengers: they are from North-West Wales, other parts of North Wales and England. We need to have a voice in this House when we debate such issues, so that we can express our views and vote on big decisions that affect our constituents.

[Mr David Jones]

I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is being very kind in giving way. While I agree with the thrust of his argument, is he not choosing a rather bad example, because railway services are not a devolved issue?

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[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

It is a huge pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. I commend the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) on securing an important and timely debate. It is timely, of course, because we are considering a lot of constitutional legislation, including the Scotland Bill, which continues in Committee today, and the proposed procedural changes to the rules of the House.

I agree with most of the thrust of the hon. Gentleman’s argument. That said, the issue of fairness must also be considered. It cannot be fair that a Member of Parliament for a part of the country in which powers are totally devolved should have a vote—possibly a determinative vote—on matters that do not affect either that Member or their constituents. I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), who illustrated the cross-border problems quite nicely. He neatly demonstrated the frustration of English Members that they often have no voice in any democratic assembly on issues concerning them and their constituents. That cannot be right.

The problem is that the devolution settlement imposed in 1999 is frankly not fit for purpose. It does not work; it is a lash-up and it needs to be revisited. The hon. Member for Ynys Môn talked about a constitutional convention, but the fact that he had to do so shows that he also recognises that what was put in place by the Blair Government back in 1999 is not fit for purpose and ill serves the people of both England and Wales.

[Albert Owen]

I will be brief, as I have already spoken at some length. As Secretary of State for Wales, the right hon. Gentleman’s answer to the problem was more devolution. He just added to the devolution settlement. We need a constitutional convention so that we can pause to consider and reflect on the matter at a UK level.

[Mr Jones]

I certainly believed in more devolution of taxing powers and was a firm advocate of that. The hon. Gentleman makes a different point, which I will focus on in the time remaining.

What we have in North Wales, as the hon. Gentleman rightly says, is a wholly different state of affairs from that which prevails in South Wales. The Welsh devolution settlement was put in place by South Wales politicians who did not really understand North Wales, did not understand that North Wales is part of the north-west economic region, did not understand the need of North Wales patients to access medical treatment in the north-west of England and did not understand the historical and cultural ties that bind the people of the north-west of England and North Wales.

I will support the procedural changes to the rules of the House provided that they fully reflect the interests of the people of North Wales and their representatives. I will join the hon. Member for Ynys Môn in pressing for that when the matter is considered by the House. More importantly, the Wales Bill to be introduced later in this Parliament presents an opportunity to address the whole issue of devolution and to sort out the problems that were identified by the hon. Members for Ellesmere Port and Neston and for Ynys Môn. We should take the opportunity to try to improve a devolution settlement that is unfit for purpose.

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[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

I entered the Chamber this morning equal to every other Member attending the debate. I have been a Member of Parliament for 23 years, during which time I have been equal to other Members. That includes the time when the right hon. Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) was Secretary of State for Wales, even though the Government of which he was part had no mandate from elected Members of Parliament in Wales, and, likewise, the time when Lord Hunt was Secretary of State for Wales. I have been an MP at times when we had Labour Secretaries of State for Wales, and when the right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) was Secretary of State for Wales.

Wales has a 170-mile border, and 50% of the population of Wales live within 25 miles of it. That means that my constituents access services, employment and a range of other things in England as well as Wales. It is important to recognise that, and to look at the key challenges mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen). We need to examine how we develop a constitutional settlement that reflects the needs and the real challenges of people who represent seats in England, but feel that they have no say on matters in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

A number of my constituents work for the fire service in Merseyside, Cheshire or Shropshire. I have key transport links in Crewe; the Halton curve provides a key link between Liverpool and services in North Wales, but it is in England. My hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) mentioned the line to Bidston from Wrexham, which goes through north Wales and is a key issue on both sides of the border. Arriva Trains Wales is devolved, but Virgin Trains provides a service that is not devolved.

There are health services in my constituency that are serviced by providers in England. Specialist services are at Clatterbridge, the Christie and the Royal Liverpool, because of the nature of our region. A third of my constituents were born in England—many at the Countess of Chester hospital, but some, like me, were born elsewhere in England. That even includes people who have played football for England, although they resided all their lives in Wales; they qualify for England because they were born in a hospital in England.

My next-door neighbours are teachers in England. I have constituents who are police officers in Merseyside, Cheshire or Shropshire. The nearest airports to my constituency are Liverpool and Manchester. I have constituents who work at Vauxhall Ellesmere Port in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston, or in Chester at the banking and financial institutions there. Why is that important? When Vauxhall Ellesmere Port was under pressure and delegations went to the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills in England about support funding to keep jobs in the area, I was able to participate. Furthermore, farmers from the constituency of the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach) come to Mold market in my constituency. They come from England to sell their produce in North Wales. What matters in England matters to my constituents in Wales.

[Mr David Jones]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Hanson]

I only have a short time and I want to ask the key question: who decides what is a Welsh issue? Under the proposals, the Speaker is supposed to decide. What openness, transparency and representations will there be? How will the Speaker determine what is an English-only matter, particularly when the Government have said that they will extend the principle of English consent to financial matters? Who decides, and what does that mean for not only votes but key questions in the House of Commons? Will I be able to table parliamentary questions in the House of Commons as an equal Member? Will I be able to speak in Westminster Hall as an equal Member? Will I be able to ask for a meeting with the Minister of an English-only Department about matters to do with the fire service, the police, health, schools or employment in my area?

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[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) for securing this important debate.

I represent a border area, but in reality the border does not exist. As others have mentioned, many thousands of people from North Wales travel across it to go to work at Vauxhall in Ellesmere Port, and at many other employers in the north-west. Equally, many people from England travel the other way to work at Airbus, Toyota, Deeside industrial park and many other places. Our road and rail networks work east to west, but do not work particularly well north to south. The Mersey Dee Alliance has worked well to promote the region as economically important not only to North Wales but to the north-west of England.

I and many other MPs from North Wales rightfully think that we should have a view on what happens on both sides of the border, as it affects the people we represent, but clearly the Government, with their usual approach, are trying to find a short-term solution to a long-term problem and have come up with a bit of a dog’s breakfast.

[Mr David Jones]

The hon. Gentleman speaks of short-termism. Does he not agree that the devolution settlement was lashed up hastily by the Labour Government?

[Mark Tami]

I do not. The right hon. Gentleman is always blaming someone else. He and his party have been in government for some time now. Surely they should take some responsibility.

Time is short, so I will set out just one example: healthcare. People in Alyn and Deeside use healthcare on both sides of the border, as has been touched on. Our children’s hospital is the Alder Hey, our heart hospital is Broadgreen, and we use services at Gobowen, the Christie and Clatterbridge.

The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (James Davies) mentioned the Countess of Chester hospital. It may be in Chester, but it was built to serve the people of Chester and Deeside. The previous MP for Chester used to stand up in the Chamber and talk about thousands of people from north-east Wales flooding across the border to go to that hospital. It is their hospital; it was built to serve the people of both Chester and north-east Wales—in particular the people of Alyn and Deeside. There are representatives on its council of governors from Flintshire and Wrexham. They have their view, and rightfully so. If those Welsh patients did not use it and the hospital served only the catchment area of Chester, I question whether it would be viable. Many people in Alyn and Deeside are registered with doctors and dentists on the English side of the border and vice versa. We are a particular and very different region.

Where does this start and end? Are the Government saying that because policing and transport powers are devolved to the Mayor of London and the London Assembly, London MPs should not have a view on those issues—is that what we are saying? We are talking about giving powers to city regions—will the MPs from those areas not be allowed to have a view? The question that no one has answered, although lots of Members have asked it, is: what is an English-only law? The Government need to decide where they stand. Are they going to treat people equally, and do they actually believe in the United Kingdom?

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[Nic Dakin]

My hon. Friend is right, and further devolution across England raises more such questions. That is why the issue is complicated and messy, needing time to get it right, rather than a rush to something that will make things much worse.

Hon. Members have raised important questions, which should be properly considered. We need to ensure that the voices of residents of North Wales continue to be heard through their elected representatives. Wales is a small country, but it is well integrated within England, as we have heard. It has received more powers in the 16 years since the Welsh Assembly was created: it now has primary law-making powers, and it is getting financial powers in the form of control over stamp duty, landfill taxes and business rates. The Government, as the former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones), reminded us, will introduce a Wales Bill later this year which will devolve further powers to Wales in the areas of energy, transport and the environment. We welcome that.

It is right that we recognise the need to reflect the devolution settlement in the way that Westminster works, but we must also take into account the integrated nature of the economy and society in North Wales. Many hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), made it clear how closely interrelated the economies are.

[Mr David Jones]

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston, because he identified a democratic deficit where English Members are concerned. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Wales Bill offers a good opportunity to address those problems?

[Nic Dakin]

The Wales Bill represents an opportunity to explore those issues. I did not hear my hon. Friend say what the right hon. Gentleman did; I heard something quite different.

Economically the border with Wales is porous. Some 90% of the Welsh population—2.7 million people—live within 50 miles of the border on the Welsh side, and a further 13.7 million live within 50 miles of it on the English side. In aggregate, 30% of the population of Wales and England, or more than 16 million people, live within 50 miles of the border between the two countries. It is estimated that 100,000 people travel between Wales and England for work, and just over half of that criss-cross border traffic is accounted for by people commuting in and out of North Wales. The A55 trunk road, which runs across North Wales connecting Holyhead with Chester, is crucial for business and residents.

Some people argue for Wales to take powers over income tax, but the Welsh Government already have the power to hold a referendum on whether and when to take those powers and the current Welsh Government do not see that as a priority. They argue that that the more pressing issue of fair funding is the priority that must be resolved sooner rather than later. There is a danger that if income tax were to be included in EVEL and it was handled in a cack-handed way, thousands of workers who cross the border to work could find that their elected MP had a limited say over the income tax they would pay. That would be against their democratic rights.

Many people from North Wales use health services over the border in England. We have heard about the personal experience of the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (James Davies) in that respect. About 21,000 English patients are registered with Welsh or Welsh-registered GPs. Approximately 15,000 Welsh residents are registered with English or English-registered GPs. That means that about 6,000 patients flow into Welsh primary care from England. In addition, approximately 50,000 Welsh residents travelled to non-Welsh providers for treatment, including emergency and elective patients. That far outweighs the number of non-Welsh patients admitted to Welsh hospitals; typically it is Welsh patients using specialist services at large hospitals in England, as we have heard in the debate.

Some 138 million journeys take place each year on roads and trains across the border—an average of 2.6 million journeys each week. The UK Department for Transport specifies and funds three of the four rail franchises that provide cross-border rail services between England and Wales, with the Welsh Government largely responsible for the fourth—the Wales and borders franchise. That franchise provides cross-border rail services to Manchester, Shrewsbury, Birmingham and Crewe, in addition to all rail services wholly within Wales, and is controlled by the Welsh Government. The UK Government have stated that Wales will benefit from HS2 because of additional capacity and reduced journey times on the west coast main line. Because of that it was considered a UK-wide project and no Barnett consequential was given to Wales.

All the areas I have outlined—the economy, health and transport—are examples of how defining an English policy area is not straightforward. That means that careful thought must be given to any proposals to restrict the voting rights of Welsh MPs. In any future arrangement, North Wales MPs need a full voice on matters affecting their people. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) perceptively said, everyone needs to be an equal Member in this House. I hope that the Deputy Leader of the House will unequivocally answer the question of what an English law is.

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[Dr Coffey]

I will take an intervention from my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West.

[Mr David Jones]

The Minister speaks of an imbalance, and I fully understand that procedural changes are necessary at this moment. In the long term, would that imbalance not be better addressed by reviewing the Welsh devolution settlement, and would a good opportunity for that not be the Wales Bill?

[Dr Coffey]

My right hon. Friend will have the opportunity to make that point as and when the Wales Bill is debated. Given his former office, I am sure that he is already in discussions on that point.