Oral Answers to Questions

Neil Carmichael Excerpts
Monday 7th December 2015

(8 years, 11 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Shailesh Vara Portrait Mr Vara
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It is always helpful if, when Front Benchers say things at the Dispatch Box, they are accurate. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has visited food banks. As far as sanctions are concerned, may I just tell the hon. Lady that the Oakley review said that 71% of people found sanctions helpful in encouraging them to find jobs?

Neil Carmichael Portrait Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
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5. What steps he is taking to encourage people on low pay to progress through training.

Shailesh Vara Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Shailesh Vara)
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For the first time, universal credit will support claimants in work to earn more. Work coaches will provide tailored support to claimants on low wages to improve their pay. To help to develop our package of support for people in work, we are implementing a comprehensive test and learn strategy to understand better the impact that labour market policies can have on helping people on low incomes to get jobs in which they earn more.

Neil Carmichael Portrait Neil Carmichael
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Does the Minister agree that having a high-skill, high-pay economy is exactly the way to drive up productivity and, crucially, social mobility, which is the key thing underpinning the Government’s strategy?

Shailesh Vara Portrait Mr Vara
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I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. The latest figures show that the employment rate for young people who have left full-time education is above the UK average and is at its highest level for a decade at 74.3%.

Oral Answers to Questions

Neil Carmichael Excerpts
Monday 2nd November 2015

(9 years ago)

Commons Chamber
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Iain Duncan Smith Portrait Mr Duncan Smith
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The hon. Lady should remember exactly how the money was spent. If she looks back, she will find that in the run-up to the 2005 general election, the then Chancellor raised the spending on tax credits, strangely, by 71%. After that the rate stayed pretty flat, but before the 2010 election it was suddenly raised again by nearly 23%. I simply say to the hon. Lady that if she does the maths, she might wonder why Labour lost the 2010 election.

Neil Carmichael Portrait Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
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T4. Will the introduction of universal credit, and all the associated data that that entails, enable the Government and the Department to help young people on low incomes to find new opportunities to progress into higher-paid jobs?

Iain Duncan Smith Portrait Mr Duncan Smith
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Yes. What happens now when someone on jobseeker’s allowance gets a job is that they disappear and nobody sees them. Under universal credit they will stay with their adviser, who will help them with any subsidiary training, help them to find extra hours if they want them, and help them to sort out any problems at work. That is a remarkable change, and it will give us the opportunity really to help people to progress in work.

Amendment of the Law

Neil Carmichael Excerpts
Monday 23rd March 2015

(9 years, 8 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Neil Carmichael Portrait Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
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It is a great pleasure to participate in this debate. This is a good Budget not only because it is fiscally neutral, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) has said, but because it underlines the fact that the long-term economic plan is producing solid results. It has been endorsed by none other than President Obama, who has pointed out that the UK and US economies are the only two that are really growing, so we must be doing something right. It has also been endorsed by the OECD, which has noted the solid performance of our strategy and suggests that we should not turn away from it. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has also pointed out that living costs are now becoming more favourable. That is the overall background.

The plan is good for another set of reasons. First, it is making sure that getting a job is a good thing, which is what we want to see. I inherited 1,488 unemployed people in my constituency, but we have got the figure down to 551. That is fantastic and exactly the direction of travel we should be taking. It is part of the strategy we have pursued, and that was underlined in last week’s Budget.

We need more savings and we need to turn the economy into a saving economy rather than one of debt. The actions taken to encourage not only pensioners to save, but young people to save for mortgages, are absolutely fabulous. Our course is absolutely right and we can only conclude that we have cause to celebrate.

The Budget is also about rebalancing the economy and creating a real economy that actually makes and sells things. We need infrastructure not only to enable our manufacturers and engineers to operate, but to promote and save the environment. That is why I was really pleased that the Chancellor recognised the need for more investment in my constituency to defend our land and houses against flooding. That is appropriate because it is both a real economy activity and worth while.

Training and education is another big area. I have been campaigning for some time for a university technical college in my constituency and we are going to get one on the site of the old Berkeley power station. This Government are committed to training, because it makes it possible for people to get jobs that last and that are highly skilled and worth while. That is exactly what the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions said earlier: 80% of all new jobs are full time and 80% are highly skilled. That is what we want to see, and that is what I am seeing in my constituency. The situation has been buttressed by the performance of our economy and strengthened by the Budget.

I have also been campaigning for action to make it easier for road hauliers to recruit and train drivers. The Chancellor has helpfully responded by signalling in the Budget that that is exactly what is going to happen.

Not only have I successfully campaigned for a university technical college in my constituency; I have also been at pains to make sure that manufacturing and engineering are put under the spotlight and that schools and colleges work with business to make it a reality. We have to continue to attract investment, so what has the Chancellor done? He has made it easier and more attractive for businesses from afar to come to my constituency. That is absolutely brilliant, because we need high-tech modern businesses with plans to invest and the ability to translate research and development into products and services that people want.

I salute the overall approach the Chancellor has been at pains to take over the past five years. The real problem is that we inherited an economy that was swamped by debt, which does nothing for investors, hard-working families, the unemployed or people who need proper care. The challenge was, “Where is the money going to come from and what are we going to do to solve the problem of debt?” The Government have done something about that.

Angus Brendan MacNeil Portrait Mr MacNeil
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Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Neil Carmichael Portrait Neil Carmichael
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I am not going to give way, because a lot of Members want to speak and it would be unfair to do so.

We have to make sure that we deal with our debt. We are on the right course.

The point I want to leave Members with is that it is essential that we continue to make our economy work for families, pensioners and people who need assistance, because that is how we will generate the capacity to pay for all the things we need. That is why the growth rate of 2.6% is very welcome: it is sustainable and reliable and we should embed it. The long-term economic plan should be saluted and cheered at every opportunity.

Compulsory Jobs Guarantee

Neil Carmichael Excerpts
Wednesday 11th February 2015

(9 years, 9 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Neil Carmichael Portrait Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
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It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound), not least because of his vivid imagination, which was on full display during his speech.

I want to celebrate the fact that 30.8 million people are at work in this country, because that is a huge achievement of this Government. We should put to bed the nonsense that there are loads of inappropriate part-time contracts when people want to work full time. In my constituency, more than 80% of jobs are full time, and those jobs have got quality and will lead to a fulfilled life. I am immensely proud of that.

The plan that Labour has attempted to roll out today is uncosted—that is obvious—and unfinanced. We have already revealed that the so-called bank bonus tax has been spent so often that it will go round in circles and become like butter out of lions going round and round and round—it just won’t work. One problem with the motion is the way that it traps people into the wrong job and gives them the wrong signals for their future career. I am worried about that.

What are we doing? One important thing is that this Government have an industrial strategy and need a supply pipeline of skills in sectors such as engineering and construction. One would think there were two worlds: one in the Labour party, which is worrying about people wanting to get jobs, and one in the construction sector—as represented by the Institution of Civil Engineers, for example—which is worried about where people will come from to fill the positions. We must address that angle and ensure that our work force are equipped with skills, motivated by the opportunities that we provide, and ready and willing to think about a career early in life. Forcing people down a particular track, as in the Labour party’s scheme, is not the way to do that.

Let us salute what we have already done and continue with it. We have shown an outstanding approach towards the aerospace and automotive industries by demonstrating that there is a future and an investment pathway, and that investment needs people to be part of a successful outcome—that is certainly the case in my constituency and a good point to make.

There are also our reforms of education. I am hopeful that we will encourage more and more people to take up science, technology, engineering and maths at school, but we have already made progress and effectively turned things around from a situation in which schools and further education colleges were producing students without the right qualifications for the jobs available in the outside world. There has been an improvement in that regard, and we should celebrate that and continue with it.

In my constituency I am proud of the fact that the number of young people claiming jobseeker’s allowance has more than halved since 2010. I also celebrate the fact that unemployment is now down to approximately 541—that is great for the Valleys and Vale, and a tribute to this Government’s persistence with their long-term economic plan. I have played my part too, including by setting up a festival of manufacturing and engineering. We must get young people engaged in that sector, which is big in my area and critical to this country’s long-term future.

If we tantalise young people with the prospect of designing, making or innovating something, or serving a firm or whatever, their eyes light up because they know that there is an enticing opportunity for them and something worth working for that will deliver them a fulfilling lifestyle. That is what I have done, and I shall continue with that.

There is, however, another side to the coin—infrastructure. I am keen and eager to improve infrastructure in my area, which is why I keep emphasising different projects, such as the bridge from Sharpness to the constituency of the Minister for Disabled People, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper). I do that because I like him, but also because I know that such projects require more and more skilled people, and that is the way to give them opportunities and positions for the future.

School Governors (Appointment)

Neil Carmichael Excerpts
Tuesday 28th October 2014

(10 years ago)

Commons Chamber
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Neil Carmichael Portrait Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
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I beg to move,

That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require that school governors be appointed on the basis of experience relevant to the role; and for connected purposes.

I would first like to thank all the school governors across the land, because the role they play in ensuring that our schools are well managed, well led and well planned is enormous. The tribute I pay to them is heartfelt. They also contribute massively to local communities, and that, too, needs to be recognised.

Our schools are going through a changing landscape. There are more schools with increasing autonomy than ever before, and that direction of travel is continuing. That is quite right, because there is support across this House for academy status, and other schools are beginning to benefit from more autonomy. The structures behind those schools are changing as well, with the introduction of the regional commissioners, the changing role of local authorities and, indeed, the emerging debate on academy chains, and that means that governors and governance are becoming increasingly important. Another driver has been the role of Ofsted in focusing on the importance of leadership and governance as part of the inspection process by making the latter category one of the four that will determine whether a school is graded in the way it wants to be.

Already in Westminster we have seen a large number of actions under the auspices of those who want improved governance across the piece. The Education Committee—I see that its Chair, my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart), is in his place—has conducted an inquiry into school governance and made a number of recommendations to which the Government have, quite properly, responded. I established the all-party parliamentary group on education governance and leadership almost as soon as I arrived here, with the purpose of talking about school governors and ensuring that their role is properly understood and develops in line with education policy, and that we recruit good governors.

Another thing that has happened is the Inspiring Governors initiative whereby various organisations have formed an alliance, including the Department for Education, the CBI, employment and education bodies, and a whole range of others. They have come together to make sure that we can promote governance to people who may not necessarily have thought of being a governor before. I am running through this activity to demonstrate that there is a lot of thought behind what I am proposing in this Bill—thought that is underpinned by substantial work. Other bodies that are key for our governors include the National Governors Association, the Wellcome Trust, the School Governors’ One-Stop Shop, and Wild Search. They have all contributed to the wider debate about the role of governors.

So where do we need to be? First, we want school governing bodies to be flexible. We want them to be able to decide how they are constructed, how they develop their plans, and how they interface effectively with their schools. The need for more autonomy for school governing bodies is recognised and required. Strong accountability of head teachers matters. A governing body needs to be able and willing to take on a head teacher who is not delivering—that is absolutely critical. We do not want weak governing bodies; we want strong and supportive governing bodies that are nevertheless capable of making a harsh decision if it ever becomes necessary. Nobody wants to do that without forethought, but the governing body needs to be capable of backing up the decision if necessary.

We need to make sure that strategic thinking takes place in schools. Governing bodies have to set the scene, the ethos and the direction of travel in making sure that the head teacher and everybody else is aware of the process. It is also important to engage with the wider community. No school can survive successfully without proper engagement in the community, and the governing body is part of that process. An effective governing body is the type of structure with good communication skills that can make the difference in this whole field.

We also want better links with employers. We must cultivate circumstances in which schools are talking to businesses much more readily and frequently about the requirements that businesses have. If we are going to start measuring the performance of schools by the destinations of their pupils, we need to be clear that schools bear some responsibility in making sure that their pupils know where they can go and where they should go, and are equipped to get there.

Getting the right people is an important mission. We need to enable employees of businesses to perform on governing bodies if they agree to do so. As the Department for Education has acknowledged, that may require an amendment to the Employment Rights Act 1996, and I would certainly want this Bill to incorporate that. We need to raise the profile of governors so that they can be recognised properly. I include national honours in that, but also civic responsibilities, civic duties and civic recognition.

Strong chairs of governors are absolutely essential and it is worth considering selecting as chair somebody who was not previously on the governing body. We need to choose the best people, not wait for them to come through the pipeline. We need an accelerated process to enable them to get where they need to be. That needs to be debated.

We also need to have a rapid response to failing schools. The Government are taking action, but some local authorities are not necessarily doing so as fast as they should be. The introduction of an interim executive board has often yielded good results and turned schools around, but there is no use in waiting for things to get so bad that turning them around is such a big job. We should be acting swiftly. Governing bodies have a role to play by recognising when they have themselves lost control and need some outside help.

I want to suggest some further steps to pave the way. We need pools of tested and proven governors who are able to address certain situations. The regional commissioners may well want to consider that suggestion as their role develops during the course of the current reforms. It is important that we have governors to choose from, rather than have to search for somebody who will do the job reluctantly. That is essential for good governance in all areas, certainly in schools.

We need to think about the transparency of decision making. The more people understand what governors do and the more they see the responsibility they have and how it can make a difference, the better. Transparency of school governing bodies is important.

A further next step for school governing bodies to take is on the need to be more corporate in how they conduct their affairs. We have already seen that pattern emerge and develop in the further education sector, so I think we should see more of it in the school sector, because it will encourage the sorts of skills, characteristics and processes I have already discussed.

In short, this Bill would make it easier, more attractive and rewarding to be a school governor, because we want the right people with the right skills, enthusiasm and motives to make sure not only that learning is a school’s top priority, but that its other characteristics can be encouraged and developed.

Finally, we are enormously thankful to those governors who currently serve, but we need to move to the next stage, which is a new shape for education, with more autonomy and responsibility. That will, of course, be a greater challenge for governing bodies, and that is why we need governors of the calibre I have described.

Question put and agreed to.

Ordered,

That Neil Carmichael, Alistair Burt, Mr Graham Stuart, Richard Graham, Mr Robert Syms, Sir Alan Beith, Fiona Bruce, Matthew Hancock, Chris Skidmore, Jeremy Lefroy and Robert Jenrick present the Bill.

Neil Carmichael accordingly presented the Bill.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 23 January 2015 (Bill 109).

John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
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We will have to delete the name of Mr Hancock, because he now occupies the illustrious post of Minister of State.

Neil Carmichael Portrait Neil Carmichael
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You are absolutely right, Mr Speaker, and I don’t know why he is on this list, because he shouldn’t be.

Affordable Homes Bill

Neil Carmichael Excerpts
Friday 5th September 2014

(10 years, 2 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Tim Farron Portrait Tim Farron
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Absolutely; it was truly shameful. Governments would have to try really hard—as the previous one did—to build fewer social rented properties than Baroness Thatcher. That is quite an achievement, and one they should be thoroughly ashamed of. The current Government have not built enough social rented houses. They are, however, the first Government in over 30 years to have seen any net rise in the number of social rented properties at all.

Neil Carmichael Portrait Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
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The key issue in this whole question is the supply of social housing. Does my hon. Friend therefore agree that the real issue here is the Localism Act 2011, neighbourhood planning, the need to encourage local authorities to build the right kind of houses in the right places, and that social housing is obviously the priority?

Tim Farron Portrait Tim Farron
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Absolutely. The reality is homes need to be built from a variety of different sources. If we believe all the statistics—and I am convinced by the evidence put forward by Shelter, the National Housing Federation and others—that show we need something in the region of 300,000 new homes a year, the bulk of which need to be affordable, and if we realise that at the height of the property boom in the 1990s the private sector was building fewer than 200,000 a year, we realise that this is not just about allowing the market to provide that supply. That is absolutely part of the answer, but we need to allow housing associations and local authorities, as well as private developers, off the leash. We need to allow, for example, housing associations to borrow against the full value of their stock, so they have got access to proper equity, to give them the freedom to make use of all the Government finance initiatives, not just the ones covering existing schemes. If we do not do that, we will continue to have generation after generation that cannot afford to buy their own home.

Politicians, frankly, have been too spineless over the last two generations to build the homes that our people, particularly our younger people, need. This situation is not their fault: our younger people are working just as hard, if not harder, than they ever did before. However, they cannot afford a home, including in the rented sector very often, because of our collective failure to deliver the homes they deserve.

The top end of that renting generation is now well into their 40s. The notion that this is a non-voting, non-interested demographic has gone. Politicians have often been too spineless because of the demographic of people. Those who are comfortable are older, more settled and they were, by definition, more likely to vote. Those who are not in that position were by definition less likely to vote. That is changing, and that generation is crying out for people who will step up to the plate and argue their case. Britain’s future depends on being able to house our young people—all our people—in an affordable and decent way.

I commend the Bill of my right hon. Friend, or rather my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives to this House. [Interruption.] Indeed, and he would deserve it. I commend my hon. Friend’s proposals on the improvements to the spare room subsidy and his recommendations for tackling the critical lack of affordable housing in this country. I think of my constituency up in the lakes and the dales in south Cumbria where the average house price is 11 times higher than the average wage. We are losing a quarter of our young people, who move out of the area and never come back because they cannot afford to put down roots. My area is very like my hon. Friend’s and many other colleagues’ here today: how important it is that we make sure our communities remain multigenerational and we keep our talent and do not force our young people into another generation of poverty and housing need.

Housing supply is the issue, and it will not be tackled unless we allow housing associations to build the houses they can and they desperately want to, and unless we invest in garden cities, and unless we tackle—my right hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) referred to this—the critical lack of housing and building skills and labour necessary to build those houses. The Government’s apprenticeship programme is an important step in the right direction, but without the skills, we will not be able to build the houses.

What I want us to see in politics is the ambition that Government can change things. In the face of a critical crisis such as the housing crisis and the lack of supply, it should not be a case of washing our hands and letting the market deliver, or praying that it might; it should be about rolling up our sleeves and making sure it does. My hon. Friend’s Bill is an important step in that direction.

Job Insecurity

Neil Carmichael Excerpts
Wednesday 5th February 2014

(10 years, 9 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Chuka Umunna Portrait Mr Umunna
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My hon. Friend is right. Almost 1 million young people are still out of work and that is why we have said that we will introduce a compulsory job guarantee to ensure that young people who have been out of work for more than a year have a job.

Neil Carmichael Portrait Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
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I am grateful for the opportunity to point out that in the past quarter manufacturing grew by 0.9% and in my constituency that translates into meaningful jobs. I took the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to Stroud last week to underline the value of apprenticeships at Delphi and so forth. Across my constituency overall employment in manufacturing has continued to rise and overall unemployment has continued to fall. Does the shadow Secretary of State recognise that that is a powerful statement of good government translating into economic success?

Chuka Umunna Portrait Mr Umunna
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I think that I have had this discussion with the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) elsewhere. Some will say, as the hon. Gentleman suggests, in the context of falling unemployment, that the main thing is that people should have a job and that, unemployment having risen for much of this Parliament, they should be grateful to have a job at all. Of course we would all prefer to see our constituents in work rather than out of it, but we have to be more ambitious for the people we represent. We want them to achieve their dreams and aspirations. We want them not only to have a job, but to have decent work that pays a wage they can live on and offers a decent level of security. For the Opposition, any old job will not do, because we believe that we must do better for the people we represent, and for the people we hope to represent after the next general election—those in the constituencies of current Government Members.

Oral Answers to Questions

Neil Carmichael Excerpts
Monday 13th January 2014

(10 years, 10 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Esther McVey Portrait Esther McVey
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I will indeed. I was planning to give my hon. Friend some information for those young people in Kettering. There is a growth hub, Brackley job club, Christ Church work club, the graduate boost work club, Kettering library work club and a whole host of extra support. Across the country, we have put £1 billion in the Youth Contract to help young people get into work.

Neil Carmichael Portrait Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
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T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

Iain Duncan Smith Portrait The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
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I welcome industry figures that suggest that business hiring intentions are at their highest for two and a half years and that even more UK businesses are reporting that they intend to recruit in 2014. Those positive signs are backed up by the latest labour market statistics that show that more people are in private sector employment than ever before—up by more than 1.6 million since the general election.

Neil Carmichael Portrait Neil Carmichael
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With the popularity of the Post Office in mind, does the Minister agree that the value of the Post Office card account is immense, benefiting some 2.9 million people? Will he think about extending it?

Steve Webb Portrait The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
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I indeed agree with my hon. Friend that the Post Office card account has played an important part in supporting the post office network and enabling pensioners and benefit recipients to receive their money at a local post office. All of the options under consideration conclude that access to pensions and benefits via the post office will continue beyond March 2015.

Food Banks

Neil Carmichael Excerpts
Wednesday 18th December 2013

(10 years, 11 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Neil Carmichael Portrait Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
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It is a great pleasure to speak in this debate on an important subject. I pay tribute to my Stroud food bank, which is an excellent example of exactly what should be delivered for those who are desperately in need. It is a fantastic organisation that demonstrates precisely what we need to do. It is operating in difficult circumstances and has moved from premises with a difficult landlord in London road to some elsewhere, with a new landlord. It will launch itself yet again as an exemplar of what is needed.

We need to ensure that people have the opportunity to have a fulfilled life, which comes through work and by contributing themselves.

Albert Owen Portrait Albert Owen
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The hon. Gentleman represents a region that contains many rural areas. Will he join me in paying tribute to the special work done by the independent trusts that help to run food banks? Food and fuel poverty are a lot higher in rural areas, which makes their job even more difficult.

--- Later in debate ---
Neil Carmichael Portrait Neil Carmichael
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Absolutely. Fuel poverty is an issue, and I fully accept that, but I think the greatest issue is the need for people to recognise that there are opportunities in the work force—opportunities to seek employment and opportunities to fulfil their lives. That is where we need to go.

Lilian Greenwood Portrait Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
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Of course, finding a job should be the way out of poverty. Is that not why it is so shocking that the majority of working-age people living below the poverty line are now in working households and that two thirds of all children living in poverty are living in working families? What should the hon. Gentleman’s Government be doing about that?

Neil Carmichael Portrait Neil Carmichael
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The Government are ensuring that more people are in work and we have discovered today just how that policy is working. The opportunity we must give all people, including young people, is the ability to engage in a working life.

Sarah Newton Portrait Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
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My hon. Friend is very generous in giving way. Is there not quite a lot that we can do as MPs? My volunteer team works alongside the food bank volunteer team to ensure that food bank clients get all the help that is available to get them and their families out of poverty and to improve their lives.

Neil Carmichael Portrait Neil Carmichael
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My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. It is about a holistic approach to helping people. I recognise that certain individuals get into situations in which they need emergency help, and I am grateful to Stroud’s food bank for providing it, but I also think that it is important to ensure that they are pointed in the right direction so that they make decisions that benefit them and their families overall, because that is what matters to them. That is the key issue.

I will finish with this observation: it is critical that we recognise the economic value of supporting people into work.

Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill

Neil Carmichael Excerpts
Monday 21st January 2013

(11 years, 10 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Neil Carmichael Portrait Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
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I listened carefully to the right hon. Gentleman’s observation, but note that about 3,800 people in my constituency who are in work have been lifted out of tax altogether. Does he not believe that that is a step in the right direction?

Stephen Timms Portrait Stephen Timms
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Those people will lose council tax benefit, and if they are paying rent, they will lose housing benefit. Citizens Advice is right that the effect of the change in the threshold on people in low-income work is very low indeed.