Michael Gove
Main Page: Michael Gove (Conservative - Surrey Heath)Department Debates - View all Michael Gove's debates with the Department for Education
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Andy Burnham
I noticed that when my hon. Friend made that impassioned contribution coalition Members laughed, because they have no understanding of what happened to communities such as his and mine in the 1990s, when the coal industry social welfare organisation tried to protect some of those facilities. Some are still there, but not all of them. Coalition Members have no understanding of the role of sport and how hard communities in former mining areas have fought to keep their sports provision.
There was a developing consensus, which was repeated just before the recent general election. A write-up of a Radio 5 Live debate appears on the Youth Sports Trust website and it says that, on school sport partnerships, Hugh Robertson said it would be wrong to dismantle “13 years of work” and, instead, “the party would build on” them. But that broad consensus has now been broken by the Secretary of State. School sport partnerships have joined a growing list of things that the Conservative party said it would protect in opposition, but has scrapped in government.
Let me make one thing clear: Labour Members would have understood if the Government had decided to reduce funding to school sport partnerships and the Youth Sport Trust, as long as they kept the basic school sport partnership infrastructure in place. What we are struggling with is having to accept the Secretary of State’s decision to remove 100% of their funding and demolish an entire infrastructure and proven delivery system that is improving children’s lives here and now. I cannot understand why he has done that.
The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove)
The right hon. Gentleman said that he would be happy to reduce central funding for the Youth Sport Trust and the curriculum and support for sport. Will he tell the House by how much?
Andy Burnham
The right hon. Gentleman was not listening. I said that I would have accepted a reduction in funding to school sport partnerships. [Hon. Members: “How much?”] I said on the media a couple of weeks ago that I would have accepted a reduction proportionate to the reductions made around Government. It is for him to say how much would keep the school sport partnership system in place. [Hon. Members: “How much?”] How much are hon. Members offering?
Michael Gove
Proportionate? Is that proportion a half, a third, 75% or 60%? Until we have clarity from the right hon. Gentleman, all we will have is an empty offer.
Andy Burnham
I will accept a package that keeps the basic infrastructure in place and keeps school sports co-ordinators in their jobs. I have said that I will accept a reduction, but it is the Secretary of State’s job to put forward a package that does just that.
What the Secretary of State has done is a senseless act of vandalism defying all logic, leaving people speechless. The Australian sports commissioner has asked how this country could dismantle a “world-leading” school sport system. The chief executive of the Canadian Olympic committee has taken the unusual step of writing to the Secretary of State to ask how, months away from a home Olympics, we can have this wholesale change in sports policy. We have called this debate because we want the Government to listen, to change course and to protect a basic school sports structure before it breaks down.
Andy Burnham
I want to make some progress.
I have mentioned the names of those who are lining up against the Government. They are not people who want to score points; they are fighting for something in which they passionately believe. Until now, the Government have dug in and patronised people with bogus statistics, but this is now turning into a real test for them. Are they prepared to listen and to change course?
Today, I am setting four clear objectives for the debate. The first is to probe the background to this decision. The second is to test the figures that the Government have used and to find out whether they stand by them. The third is to obtain clarity on what has happened to school sport funding. Fourthly, and most importantly, I want to make the Secretary of State a genuine offer that will help us to re-establish the consensus on school sports as we head towards a home Olympics.
Let me start with the decision-making process. We admire the erudition that the Secretary of State brings to our proceedings. Mr Lansley never quoted Dryden to me, and I really admired that about the Secretary of State for Education, but let me extend his cultural references today. How about Defoe? I know that he is thinking “Daniel”, but I want to know what he thinks about—
Andy Burnham
Thank you very much. I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has been revising over the weekend. What does he think about the work that Spurs and other clubs do with schools? We never hear him talk about sport; let us hear him talk about it. And what does he think about Strauss? Is he thinking “Johann”? I think he was, actually, but I want to tempt him to talk about Andrew today, and about the excellent Chance to Shine initiative. I want to know that he knows about these things, and that he values them.
I also want to know what sport means to the right hon. Gentleman. Last week, he goaded me about my drama career at school. I have looked up his school sports career. It did not take long. One article on him mentions it:
“In 1979, he won a scholarship to Robert Gordon’s school in Aberdeen, where he spent the next seven years excelling in every subject, except sport.”
There was also a lovely quote from Mrs Gove, his mum:
“When he had finished all his school work, he would more or less revert to reading his encyclopaedia”.
[Hon. Members: “Aah!”] It is a lovely image, but it worried me. Did he ever use the encyclopaedia as a goalpost, or anything like that? Stumps? Anyway, that worried me a little. It also made me wonder—so inexplicable is his decision on this matter—whether this whole thing might be Gove’s revenge. I get the distinct impression that he harbours some unpleasant memories of his own sporting experiences at school, and that he is lashing out at the school sport system, now that he has the chance to do so. I hope that that is not the case, however.
I have an invitation for the right hon. Gentleman. Let us get our tracksuits and our trainers on—I will lend him some if he has not got any—and go to see the school sport co-ordinators in my constituency. The Children’s Minister can come, too. If the Secretary of State comes with me to meet the school sport co-ordinators in Wigan, and if he looks them in the eye and calls them a centralised bureaucracy, we shall see what is left of him afterwards.
I also want the Secretary of State to explain a mystery to me. Week after week, he addresses Members on both sides of the House with unfailing courtesy, but that courtesy seems to have deserted him in dealing with this row. Sue Campbell—Baroness Campbell of Loughborough —is a world authority on school sport. She has given a lifetime of energy and passion to the subject. Surely someone of such stature, with decades of service, should have earned at least a hearing. Will the Secretary of State explain why he refused the many requests from Lady Campbell and the Youth Sport Trust for him to discuss funding before the spending review? It really is not good enough. Why did the Secretary of State wait until the day of the spending review to send Lady Campbell a curt and dismissive letter dispensing with the services of the Youth Sport Trust? Why did a man who is so polite and courteous act in such a way?
That brings me to my second purpose today: to challenge the bogus claims that the Secretary of State and other Ministers are making. We have heard an incredible abuse of statistics as they have thrashed around trying to find an argument. Let us set the record straight on three claims. This is claim one. The Government have said that school sport partnerships are ineffective because in the
“last year the proportion of 11 to 15-year-olds playing sport went down.”—[Official Report, 24 November 2010; Vol. 519, c. 259.]
The Government’s source for that is the “Taking Part” survey, which asks people in all age groups whether they have engaged in sport in the last seven days and in the last four weeks.
It is true that on the seven-day test the percentage of 11-to-15-year-olds engaging in active sport dropped from 88.8% to—wait for it—88%. That is a statistically negligible fall in a figure that has shot up since school sport partnerships were established. What the Government do not cite, however, is the four-week figure in the same survey. The percentage of 11-to-15-year-olds engaging in sport in the last four weeks rose from 96% to 96.7%, and, according to statisticians, that is the more important figure. It is estimated that in 2002 only 25% of young people engaged in two or more hours of competitive sport each week, whereas more than 90% do so now.
Let us now consider the survey that deals only with school sport, rather than the “Taking Part” survey. In each year group represented by 11 to 15-year-olds, the percentage engaging in at least three hours of sport each week has risen. In year 7, the rise was 59% this year, compared to 53% last year. In year 8, it was 54% compared to 50% last year. In year 9, it was 49% compared to 44% last year. In year 10, it was 45% compared to 42% last year. On the Government’s first claim, it is “case dismissed”.
The second claim is that there is not enough competitive sport, and that only one in five young people are playing it regularly against other schools. That is the claim that needles me most. I bow to no one in my support for competitive sport, having played it all my life.
The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove)
I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) for making his case with characteristic passion, reflecting the years of experience that he has devoted to ensuring that sport plays a proper part in the life of the nation as both Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport and a special adviser before that. No one could doubt his passion or commitment. Indeed, they animated every word that he spoke. I recognise that in calling for this Opposition day debate he is doing more than just making a political point. He speaks from the heart, and I appreciate the fervour with which he makes his case. I know—I share the feelings of my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Bob Russell)—that when, occasionally, that passion takes a rawer edge, it comes from an individual who cares deeply about the sporting infrastructure in this country. For that reason, I make no criticism of the manner in which the right hon. Gentleman made his case.
I also think that it is appropriate to acknowledge that across the House there are individuals who are committed to ensuring that we support the place of sport not just in our schools but in the life of our nation. Distinguished former sports Ministers on the Opposition Benches and individuals on the Government Benches, although they might disagree about the delivery mechanism, share something of the passion exhibited by the right hon. Gentleman in his speech.
In responding to the right hon. Gentleman’s strong case, I want to try to lower the temperature and to analyse the situation that we have inherited. Of course, we must consider the facts and the statistics against the backdrop of the difficult economic position that the Government inherited. [Interruption.] I know that Opposition Members would like to put that part of the debate to one side, but for those of us in government it is impossible to consider the decisions that have to be taken in schools across the country without being aware of the dire financial position that the Government inherited.
Michael Gove
I shall come to some of those interventions in a second.
Every option that is proposed by the Opposition, whatever the passion or fervour behind it, has to have a price tag. In the middle of his speech, the right hon. Gentleman acknowledged that the current delivery mechanism might not be as efficient as it could be and that there might be room for reduction. He said specifically that he would accept a cut or a proportionate reduction that would retain the infrastructure, so he acknowledges that it is perfectly possible to reduce spending and retain the infrastructure, but when I asked him how much of a cut and what would retain the infrastructure he was curiously silent. I would be very interested to hear from any of the Opposition Members who care so much about this—I do not doubt their passion—what level of cut they would contemplate and what they would consider to be a robust infrastructure to be kept in place. We have not had an answer on that.
Andy Burnham
If the right hon. Gentleman is prepared seriously to discuss retaining school sport partnerships, I will sit down with him and discuss at what level they could be kept in place and funded. The Opposition would support him if he put forward a figure that would keep them in place. If that is the offer he is making, I will sit down with him tonight to discuss it.
Michael Gove
I am always very grateful to sit down with the right hon. Gentleman, but he called this debate now. It is a debate of his timing, not mine, and he said in his opening remarks that he would be prepared to accept a cut. Now he has had an opportunity to state what that would be, but we do not know; there is silence on this issue.
Michael Gove
As the right hon. Gentleman cannot answer the question, perhaps one of his hon. Friends might.
Clive Efford
The Secretary of State has referred to the £162 million figure both in his letter to Sue Campbell about the cut in school sport partnerships and on the departmental website. What proportion of that money is to be transferred? He says that the policy has been brought about as a result of the economic situation, so exactly how much of that £162 million is he cutting?
Michael Gove
At the moment, we are looking to see exactly how much we can devote to sport, music, science, languages and all those specific areas of curriculum support that are outside the school budget. We have increased overall school funding by £3.6 billion.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State bear in mind the adverse effect that his policy will have on a number of schools? I have received a letter from the head of a sports college in my constituency in which fine academic and sporting work is done. The head is very concerned about what the impact will be—starting next year. What is the Secretary of State going to do to reassure people like her? She is dedicated to teaching and is rightly worried about how her school will be affected.
Michael Gove
The hon. Gentleman makes his point very well. I am sensitive to the fact that teachers and head teachers across the country are entering difficult times in respect not just of sport funding but of overall funding. The economic situation was not of the making of Government Members, but we are doing everything we can to help schools through this difficult time. One thing we are doing is removing ring-fencing. If he was referring to a specialist sports college, that will mean money that was hitherto ring-fenced as part of its specialist status now going directly to that head teacher, who I am sure is doing an excellent job. If she has, as I am sure she has, his confidence and mine, that money will be spent in a wise fashion.
Michael Gove
I am keen to make progress, but I shall be happy to give way to a number of hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House in due course. [Interruption.] I am even happier to give way to hon. Ladies and right hon. Ladies on both sides of the House.
We know that £2.4 billion was spent by the last Government on delivering their sport strategy. Our contention is that although much good work was done, that money was not spent as effectively and efficiently as it should have been. In the letter I wrote to Baroness Campbell, which the right hon. Member for Leigh referred to as “curt”, even though it was four and a half pages of prose, I outlined my gratitude to her for the work she had done. Earlier, the hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) suggested from a sedentary position that I should have met Baroness Campbell. I had the opportunity of meeting her—indeed, of having dinner with her—before I became Secretary of State. I also had the opportunity of talking to John Beckwith, one of the supporters of the Youth Sport Trust, and with the Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), I had the opportunity of assessing the work of the trust. My hon. Friend had the opportunity of meeting Baroness Campbell on three occasions before we made our decision in the comprehensive spending review.
One of the questions that was in my mind was whether we were ensuring that enough was spent on the front line under the current structure. The right hon. Gentleman said that he would support the investment required to retain the infrastructure, but he did not specify what it was. Let me share with the House some of the details of the infrastructure. At present, we have 450 partnership development managers and 225 competition managers. On top of that, there are senior competition managers and on top of that, 11 regional development managers, and on top of that three national development managers. They work alongside the county sport partnerships and the national governing bodies of each sport. How many of those posts are essential to the delivery of an effective school sport offer?
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State recognise that the people he has just mentioned save schools time and money? What would he say to Kealey Sherwood, the director of sport at St Luke’s school in my constituency, about the £300,000 cut to my local partnership? She said:
“We are devastated. There is a real danger that at an exciting time for sport in Britain, all will be destroyed.”
What does the Secretary of State say to her?
Michael Gove
I am grateful to Kealey Sherwood for the commitment she shows. I am also grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the work he did when he was Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, but I have a question, which most people would consider fair-minded. If Opposition Members would like to maintain the infrastructure entirely intact, how much are they prepared to take from other budgets to do that, or if they agree with the right hon. Member for Leigh that a cut is possible to maintain the infrastructure, what level of cut would it be? Which of the posts is dispensable?
Michael Gove
I am happy to give way to the hon. Gentleman, who is a former sports Minister.
Mr Sutcliffe
The Secretary of State talked about the national governing bodies. The infrastructure is the school sport partnerships working with the national governing bodies to deliver their whole sport plans. If he is serious about finding a way through, has he had any discussion with his hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr Foster) about why that infrastructure is so important? Has he had any discussions with his hon. Friend about the way forward?
Michael Gove
I am fortunate enough to have had a number of discussions with my hon. Friend the Member for Bath, and one of the points that he has made to me is that although many people working in the network and the infrastructure are doing a fantastic job, which I happily acknowledge—I am glad to have the opportunity this debate affords me to stress that—it is also the case that the quality of delivery can be variable. It is important that we audit how the infrastructure is performing, and that we ensure that money is spent proportionately.
Michael Gove
I shall give way to the hon. Members for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) and for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith), but then I want to make some progress.
Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
Is the Secretary of State not in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater? In my school sport partnership in North Stoke, we have transformed participation in sport. He asked how much our shadow Secretary of State wished to cut the budget by, but it is not a question of how much—it is a question of keeping the infrastructure. Can we for once use Parliament as a means of finding a solution to how we get sport in schools and in our communities? Will the Secretary of State continue his contribution in that spirit?
Michael Gove
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for the fair point she makes. I chose to begin my remarks by making it clear that I wished to operate constructively. I should like to ask some questions to ensure that we have a proper informed debate about the successes, and about the areas where the current strategy may not have been delivering the value for money we wanted.
Angela Smith
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the comments of a teacher from Silkstone primary school in my constituency who said that staff at his school had benefited from the excellent training courses presented by their SSP? He continued:
“Staff development has allowed colleagues to learn many new skills…This has been central to our ability to develop the whole child and focus on enjoyment and excellence.”
Will the Secretary of State reconsider the comments that he has just made and admit that the partnerships work very well in schools, not just on sport, but on many facets?
Michael Gove
I have enormous respect for the hon. Lady and the way that she makes her point. As I stressed earlier, and as her intervention gives me the opportunity to underline, there are many parts of the country where those who are working in school sports partnerships are doing a great job, but my task as Secretary of State is to analyse the current infrastructure and ensure that we are getting the maximum value for money, where good practice exists to support it, and where practice is less than optimal to try to find a way through to ensure that we have better value for money.
Michael Gove
I am happy to give way to the right hon. Gentleman. We are still waiting for the answer to the question what is a proportionate reduction.
Andy Burnham
The right hon. Gentleman is giving a lot of encouraging signs that he is prepared to look at the system and make it more efficient. I am not arguing that it is perfect. Of course it could probably be made more efficient, but can we make some genuine progress? Will he sit down with me and discuss how we can keep in place enough people on the ground to provide a decent enough sporting offer to children? I will accept the reduction in the funding if he will agree to sit down and talk about the current structure, rather than creating a whole new and different structure that will not deliver for children.
Michael Gove
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that offer and I am always happy to work in a consensual way, but I should like to lay out some facts which will, I hope, allow the House to have an informed debate. I will take the opportunity, of course, to talk to him, formally or informally, at any point on any aspect of policy, but it is important that we appreciate that he has acknowledged that a proportionate reduction is appropriate. He has not yet come forward with what that proportionate reduction would be. Let us go on to examine the scope for reduction.
Michael Gove
I should like to make a little progress. I know that the right hon. Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge) and the hon. Member for Eltham (Clive Efford) are keen to intervene, but a number of my colleagues on the Government Benches have not had a chance yet, so it would be only fair and sporting if I were to give them a chance as well.
Charlie Elphicke
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the key issue is not whether we have one organisation or another, but to raise the number of hours a week of sport played by children in their schools? Will he consider encouraging that more through the national curriculum?
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend makes a good point. For me, the most important thing is outputs, not inputs.
Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)
There seems to be a consensus that the quality across the country is variable. My right hon. Friend made the point that an audit was needed to look at what works and what does not work so well. The previous Government spent £2.4 billion on that. Will my right hon. Friend tell us whether he inherited any audit of how that money has worked?
Michael Gove
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. It is important that we look at the existing infrastructure and what it has delivered. Many of the people who are doing the job of partnership development manager are utterly committed to improving the sporting offer for young people, but I worry that the structure within which they work does not allow them to do what is best.
Much of the job description of a partnership development manager depends on full-time strategic management, developing an ongoing self-review document, advocating the priorities of the partnership within wider strategic frameworks, establishing robust data-tracking and monitoring systems, and promoting the benefits and successes of the partnership. There is inadequate space in the job description for doing what the right hon. Member for Leigh did so well—making the case for improved participation in sport with fervour and passion. [Interruption.] He says, “Let’s change it.” I agree. We are changing it. He had the opportunity when he was in power; he did not do so. Now he is happy to do so. I am happy to see this movement. The Opposition are happy to acknowledge that we can reduce the amount that is being spent, and happy to acknowledge that there has been too much bureaucracy for partnership development managers. I am delighted to acknowledge that.
The same applies to the role of competition managers. It is vital that we encourage more school competition, but one of the problems is that there is another layer of bureaucracy. What is the role of a competition manager? It is a full-time position responsible for modernising the competition landscape. One has to work strategically with the partnership development manager, manage and co-ordinate the monitoring and evaluation of projects and fulfil local and national data collection requirements. Again, all those take away from the central task of promoting sport with fervour and passion.
The data requirements—
Michael Gove
I am sharing some facts with the House.
The data requirements for school sport partnerships are exemplified in the school sport partnership self-review tool. We all know how onerous tick-box exercises can be, and that exercise has 115 boxes to tick. Every moment spent looking at the self-review tool is a moment that could be spent coaching, inspiring and acting to ensure that more children take part in sport, but unfortunately there is too much bureaucracy.
Michael Gove
In a second.
In the same way, we acknowledge that the Youth Sport Trust—Baroness Campbell, Steve Grainger and their team—has done a lot of good work, but one question I ask about their organisation is: did the way in which the previous Government managed it necessarily make the most of its talents? With the Youth Sport Trust, we have to ask: was it encouraged sufficiently to find outside sources of funding? Only 15% or so of its funding came from private or independent sources; 85% of it came from the state, and that cannot be an entirely healthy position for any charity. Indeed, large sums were committed to administration; £340,000 was spent on communications, and £400,000 was given to one private sector company to manage the school sport partnerships outside the trust. Was that the best use of money?
Michael Gove
I am very happy to make way for the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford). I do not know whether any of those are aspects of bureaucracy that he would be willing to defend.
Mr Raynsford
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way, because I will tell him of 70 simple facts that illustrate the effectiveness of the scheme—and of the competition manager in my constituency who wrote to me about this matter. The 70 are the 70 primary schools in Greenwich, every single one of which takes part in an annual sportathon that gives thousands of children an opportunity to participate on a site that will become an Olympic site in 2012. What is wrong with that? Will the right hon. Gentleman now recognise that he has made a terrible mistake and must now negotiate with the Opposition to reach a solution?
Michael Gove
The right hon. Gentleman once again reflects with passion the interests of his constituency, and as ever he brings to our debate an understanding of its landscape, but the thing I have to say—[Interruption.] There is a sedentary intervention from the Opposition Chief Whip, the right hon. Member for Doncaster Central (Ms Winterton). If she wants to make a point, I shall be delighted to hear one, but in the meantime I shall reply to the right hon. Gentleman.
Nothing in our proposals means that any primary school would lose out on an opportunity to take part in competitive sport. Everything that we are about relates to ensuring that the money that we spend in schools and on school sport is spent more effectively.
Michael Gove
I have been generous in giving way, and I should like to give way to some of the gentlemen and ladies on my own side who are anxious to make a point.
Paul Maynard
We have heard a lot from the Opposition about infrastructure, and my right hon. Friend has told us a lot about bureaucracy, which I think is what they mean by infrastructure. Will he give me his view on the extra bureaucracy required for disabled children to access sport? Under the current structure, their schools face much greater hurdles than many others.
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. As we know, he is utterly committed to ensuring appropriate provision for children who are living with disabilities, and I want to ensure that we get the spirit of both the Olympic and the Paralympic games into our schools. A lot of good work is going on, and I want to ensure that the money that we spend in future is targeted, in particular, at schools which often have a large number of children who are living with disabilities.
Michael Gove
I am just answering my hon. Friend’s point.
I want to ensure that those schools get the support that they need.
Michael Gove
I am very happy to give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael).
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
Does the Secretary of State agree that my children are much the same as others, in that they do not cry out for more infrastructure and bureaucracy when they talk about sport? What they really benefit from is local people giving them leadership and encouragement, which they get—but not through infrastructure and bureaucracy.
Michael Gove
It is important that we ensure that the very many Back Benchers who have not yet intervened but want to contribute have a chance to do so, and I should like to make some progress. With respect to the hon. Lady, there may be room for some interventions later.
I have talked about the nature of the bureaucracy. It is also important to talk about the nature of what has been delivered. It is important to recognise that, yes, there have been improvements, but they must be put into this context: £2.4 billion spent, and what have we seen for it? The right hon. Member for Leigh chided me in saying that in his view there had been an abuse of statistics. Well, the motion refers, I think, to 22% of children taking part in sports in 2002 and 90% doing so now. I have to point out to him that that is an abuse of statistics. The 22% figure was an estimate by Ofsted; 90% is a figure from a genuine survey. The first survey of involvement in school sports, in 2003-04, showed that more than 60% were already taking part. Yes, that is an improvement—I am happy to acknowledge it—but what we have seen is a manipulation of statistics for political purposes. I am happy to forgive the right hon. Gentleman, but let us be clear that he was not comparing like with like.
Bob Russell
I am disappointed that the Secretary of State is now going down the route that I was trying to avoid. On Friday afternoon, I met Zoe Ford of Colchester academy, who is in charge of co-ordinating seven primary schools, and she told me that this project has been a great success. Forget the figures—will he come to Colchester and meet this young lady, who can prove to him how successful this has been?
Michael Gove
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who makes a very good point. I am always disappointed when I go down a path that he does not approve of, and I appreciate the importance of my visiting Colchester, as have previous Secretaries of State. I again take the opportunity to underline that in some areas of the country many of those involved in the delivery of school sports are doing a fantastic job. Given everything that he says, I suspect that Colchester is one of them.
It is important to recognise that, as the right hon. Member for Leigh acknowledged, the picture is not perfect—far from it. Looking at the figures on the sports where participation has fallen and the number of schools offering particular sports, it is an unarguable fact that after the commitment of £2.4 billion, the numbers of people taking part in gymnastics, rounders and netball have fallen, and the number of schools offering hockey and rugby union has fallen. For the benefit of the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), I have to say that the number of schools offering swimming has not changed—it was 84% in 2003-04, before £2.4 billion was spent, and it is 84% now. There has been no increase in participation in a significant number of sports.
Michael Gove
I will not give way at this stage.
As well as a fall in the number of schools offering these sports, the numbers taking part in competition have also been lower than we would expect. Just two in five people take part in competitive sport within a school—intra-school competition—and just one in five in competitive sport between schools.
Michael Gove
No—not at this stage. I was very generous in giving way earlier.
It is also important that we look at those figures more deeply in context. On schools where pupils regularly take part in intra-school competitions, in 1,280 secondary schools not a single pupil takes part in an intra-school competition. That equates to nearly one in three secondary schools where not a single intra-school competition takes place.
Michael Gove
No.
I know that there are challenges that we all face, but after the commitment of £2.4 billion we have not seen an improvement. Similarly, as to the proportion of pupils who regularly take part in inter-school competitions, in 710 schools not a single pupil takes part in such competitions. That situation is not defensible.
The right hon. Gentleman said that not everyone can be in the first 11, or the first 13 or 15, and that is true. However, some schools are exemplary. In 10 schools, 100% of pupils regularly take part in inter-school competitions, and in 320 they regularly take part in intra-school competitions. There are massive variations and disparities. I mention these figures simply to point out that a responsible Government would look, as we have, at the commitment of £2.4 billion and ask this: can we ensure that we have more schools where more students have an opportunity to take part in competition?
Michael Gove
I will not give way at this point.
If some schools can offer every student an opportunity to take part in intra-school and inter-school competitions, why cannot more do so?
Michael Gove
No, I shall not.
I believe that the time is right to consider a different approach. We should listen to some of the voices that are equally as committed to sport as the right hon. Gentleman. They include organisations such as Compass, which represents those who are involved in providing coaching support for schools. In a letter to me, it says that it is important that we cease
“to fund a costly central management and control system”,
and argues that
“the most sustainable model in primary schools is where coaches work alongside teaching staff...This will require no expenditure on centralised management and infrastructure.”
I have to take account of what it says.
In the same way, I listen to Greenhouse, a charity that has done a fantastic job in encouraging more children, particularly from areas of deprivation, to take part in sports. One of the trustees of Greenhouse, David Meller, says to me—[Laughter.] For the avoidance of doubt, I should stress that this is David Meller, the sponsor of Harefield academy, which I have had the opportunity to visit.
Michael Gove
Not the gentleman who forced down the price of Chelsea strips everywhere. That was not all he forced down, but I will put that to one side.
This is a serious point. David Meller says:
“The quality and effectiveness of”
the existing approach has
“varied from borough to borough”—
exactly my point—and that the
“structure is overly bureaucratic and not sufficiently focused on delivery.”
Let me mention someone else who has a valid point to make in this debate—the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey), who used to be Minister for Sport. I do not know whether the right hon. Member for Leigh has respect for the hon. Lady, but I certainly do. She says:
“It was always expected that, if School Sports Partnerships were a success, they would become embedded and the Youth Sport Trust would then withdraw. If schools and parents feel that their SSP has been valuable, I suspect that it—or at least many of its functions—will continue in some form. Where the contribution of the SSP has not proved valuable, new solutions will be sought. This is exactly how it should be: schools themselves taking more responsibility for school sport.”
Steve Kibble, an individual who delivers sport for a local authority in Devon, has written to me, as have several other teachers and head teachers. He points out that in his area, school sports partnerships
“have drawn down £1.4M per year”
and argues that
“if the money had gone direct to schools we would have had £4,110 per school per year to invest in PE”,
noting that instead some schools have had just £200.
Those are all powerful voices who care about sport just as much as the right hon. Gentleman, and who say that we can reform the way in which we deliver school sport.
Mr Gale
It is abundantly clear that some fairly murky bathwater has to be disposed of, and it is also plain that there is a baby that has to be cared for. As my right hon. Friend knows, I represent an area of the country with some of the highest social deprivation. Thanet primary schools have benefited significantly from sports festivals. Will he indicate very clearly whether such areas and school clusters will continue to have the money to hold sports festivals and, if they wish, to employ locally a sports co-ordinator to run them?
Michael Gove
That is exactly our approach. Our approach is to ensure that the money is devolved—
Michael Gove
I shall not give way. Our approach is to ensure that the money is devolved entirely to local authorities. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Mr Gale), because he is not only a very effective constituency MP, but somebody who appreciates the importance of competition in school sport.
Michael Gove
No, I shall not give way.
It is critical that we recognise what a different approach might involve. It is important for those of us who care about delivering school sport in a better way to acknowledge that the way in which the curriculum is currently designed means that those who wish to deliver competitive sport often have to do so outside school hours. Is it worth thinking about how we can reform the curriculum to better support school sport? I think that it is.
It is also worth acknowledging that there are bureaucratic requirements for coaches who support particular school sports to be qualified at a specific level and in a specific way. Perhaps we could look at that bureaucracy and make better use of the volunteer army that is determined to encourage more children to take part in sport. There are rules governing everything from health and safety to who is qualified to drive a school minibus that restrict that volunteer army in committing to school sport. Is it appropriate that we look at all those rules and reform them? I think that it is. In all those areas, action could have been taken in the past 13 years, but it was not. I would like to see a different approach.
Michael Gove
I shall not give way.
We must acknowledge the reality regarding school playing fields. There cannot be effective school sport without school playing fields. A number of hon. Members have made the point that Labour has an at best ambiguous record on this matter. In 1997, the Labour party manifesto stated:
“A Labour government will take the lead in extending opportunities for participation in sports; and in identifying sporting excellence and supporting it.
School sports must be the foundation. We will bring the government’s policy of forcing schools to sell off playing fields to an end.”
That was an admirable aim. However, in January 2000, it was revealed that of 103 applications to sell playing fields, 101 had been approved.
Elsa Davies, director of the National Playing Fields Association, said that the previous Government did not even pay lip service to their election pledges:
“They have said one thing and done precisely the opposite. It is a very sad U-turn. These pieces of land are disappearing forever and they are part of our children’s heritage.”
In November 2000, the sell-offs had still not been stopped. Elsa Davies pointed out that 190 applications had come forward, and that only four had been refused. In February 2002, after more than 18 months in which £125 million had been due to be handed out to 12 partner organisations to support school playing fields, the Daily Mail and the BBC revealed that they had contacted all of those groups and found out that not a single one had opened new playing fields with the money. Kate Hoey, the then Minister for Sport said:
“Trying to stop the sale of playing fields was another uphill battle. No one wanted to admit”—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. The Secretary of State may not use the Member’s name. I think that he is referring to the hon. Member for Vauxhall.
Michael Gove
I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am quoting from The Daily Telegraph. The hon. Member for Vauxhall said:
“Trying to stop the sale of playing fields was another uphill battle. No one wanted to admit that this was still happening… But again this didn’t fit the picture that Downing Street wanted to portray. They had begun to believe their own spin”.
She continued:
“Ministers should admit that what they are really doing is allowing sales to go ahead to subsidise the Education Department’s rising costs. The truth is that, in town after town, green spaces are being concreted over and it can be seen by everybody.”
By April 2007, Labour had presided over the loss of 2,540 school and community playing sites. I recognise that there are pressures on Governments and on schools, and that flexibility is at the heart of the effective delivery of Government policy. However, it is appropriate for the Opposition to acknowledge that when we look back at the record of the past 13 years, although there are successes to be applauded, there are also lessons to be learned.
I recognise that many right hon. and hon. Members want to contribute to the debate and I hope that it will follow the pattern that I hope I have set. I hope that it will be respectful of the facts.
Michael Gove
I am afraid that I cannot give way.
I hope that the debate will be respectful of the facts. I hope that it will acknowledge that there are hon. Members in all parts of the House who are committed to the better delivery of school sport. I hope that it will take into account the points graciously made by the right hon. Member for Leigh, and recognise that there is scope for a reduction in funding and for the more efficient use of the infrastructure that we have inherited. If we proceed in that way, I am sure that we can all work together to ensure that school sports continue to be delivered to an ever-higher standard and that we will all be able to take pride in the achievements of our young people.