Police and Crime Commissioners

Mark Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 25th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr David]

That is absolutely correct, Mr Speaker. My right hon. Friend is not known for unusual practices in any shape or form. I think that he was about to make a fair point, however. It is strange that the Minister who is to respond to the debate is not from the Home Office, when it is the Home Office that has responsibility for the matter under consideration. Instead, we have a Minister from the Cabinet Office. Perhaps he will explain the reason for this when he responds to the debate.

The Minister—although he is from the Cabinet Office—will be aware that genuine concern has been expressed by Members in this House and the other place that the Government do not intend to have a publicly funded mailing or booklet distributed locally, giving details of the candidates standing in the elections for police and crime commissioners. Like the Electoral Commission, I believe that the Government have failed to recognise the importance of such material.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

The Government’s assertion is that there will be a central website on which all our constituents can readily access information about the candidates. Has the hon. Gentleman examined the difficulties that that could pose, certainly for my constituents in Ceredigion and across the Dyfed-Powys area who have no internet provision?

[Mr David]

The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point, and I agree with him completely. In the last Government, I was, among other things, the deputy Minister with responsibility for digital inclusion. I know only too well that some 7 million adults in England—excluding London—and Wales do not have internet access and have not used the internet at all in the past 12 months. Sadly, those people will not have the same access to information as those individuals who have digital computer access. The hon. Gentleman is correct to say that it is people in rural areas and the elderly who will be disadvantaged, as they will not have the same access to the kind of information that I believe they should have.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman who secured the debate spoke for just over half the time available, so let me address at least some of his questions before taking interventions from other Members.

Our view is that top-down control, with chief constables looking upwards to the Home Office, did not work particularly well, so we want locally democratically accountable figures setting policy. However, operational matters will, of course, remain the responsibility of the chief constable. There will be police and crime panels to ensure that there is scrutiny and transparency.

The hon. Gentleman made a number of points about the elections themselves and I shall deal with some of them in turn. As I said, I am pleased that so many Members of this House and the other place are stepping forward and that we are seeing candidates from across the country. I think we will have a good slate of experienced people. To pick up on the point made by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), I believe that a number of people who have had experience in the criminal justice system, some of whom are former police officers but others of whom have been involved in that system, have put their names forward. So I think that the public will be offered a good range of candidates—people with practical experience and people with policy-making experience. Like the hon. Member for Caerphilly, I trust the public to be able to sort out the qualities that they want in police and crime commissioners and to make the right decisions in November.

The Government agree that it is important that candidates get their message out. To pick up on the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams), candidates obviously have a responsibility to do that themselves. Of course it is not the case that candidates can spend a limitless amount of money; there will be limits on expenditure, which will be broadly proportionate to those for other types of election. So candidates will be able to spend some money, but they will not be able to spend limitless sums. We thought carefully about how we could assist candidates in doing that, and provisions will be made in the draft legislation to enable candidates, as the hon. Member for Caerphilly said, to publish information on the centrally funded website.

In addition, if the public are not able to use the website, they will be able to call a freephone number and request, on demand, printed information to be sent to them directly. We recognise that this is a novel approach, but we think that that blend of online and on-demand information will be very helpful. The website and the print-on-demand phone number will be printed on polling cards sent out in advance of the election.

[Mr Mark Williams]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I will adopt the same stricture as I did in respect of Labour Members. Let me deal with the points that the hon. Member for Caerphilly raised, as it is his debate, and if we have time, I will be happy to take further interventions.

Polling cards will contain this information, so it will be widely distributed to voters. The Electoral Commission, with which we are working closely, will include that contact and access information in its own literature—indeed, this will be in the booklet that it is distributing to households, which will provide some information about the elections and the supplementary vote system.

The hon. Member for Caerphilly raised the issue of internet access. Although 77% or so of the population can use the internet, we recognise that there are people who cannot; my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) referred to people who live in his constituency in this regard. That is why we have the combination of online and print-on-demand information. I am pleased to tell the hon. Member for Caerphilly, as I anticipated that he would ask about this, that the information will be available in both English and Welsh. Candidates will be able to submit their information to go on the website in either language, and we will make sure that the website content and the printed copies are available in both languages. We will of course make sure that the information is available in a range of accessible formats for those voters who have some form of disability, to make sure that we maximise the opportunities for people to see the information.

Let me deal with why we have chosen that option rather than completely free mailings paid for by the taxpayer. We did consider funding mailings of the type used for UK parliamentary and European elections. We are minded to conclude—this is our preferred option on the website, rather than our final position—that at a time when budgets are tight, it is difficult to justify those mailings for PCC elections. There are also some logistical difficulties involved in producing a candidates booklet, such as those used for mayoral elections. The difficulties are partly to do with the size of the PCC areas and having to produce the 41 booklets simultaneously; this would be very difficult to co-ordinate across the country. We think that the approach we have adopted is a proportionate one that will give people access to the information. We will, of course, look at the experience in practice; we will look very carefully at what happens. I am sure that hon. Members in this House will not be backward in coming forward about any issues, and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be sure to tell us of issues in his area in Wales. We will look at this carefully but we are confident that we have adopted a sensible approach; we have worked closely with stakeholders and we think it will be successful.

As I mentioned, the Electoral Commission will be working on some public awareness information. This is in its plan, so it is in the money that it has bid for and had approved by the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission and by the House. This is something that has been in the Electoral Commission’s programme, so I am confident that it will be effective.

The hon. Member for Caerphilly also asked about the conduct rules. The elections, as he said, will take place in every police force area in England and Wales outside London, although it is worth saying that the first time that people will be able to vote for the directly elected person who will control policing will be in the London mayoral election, now that the Mayor has that responsibility. The detail for the other elections will be in the secondary legislation that we intend to lay before the House shortly. I can confirm that “shortly” means by 15 May, so that legislation will be laid before the House six months before the elections.

We have, of course, worked closely with the Electoral Commission, the Association of Electoral Administrators, returning officers, the Local Government Association, the Welsh Government, the Wales Office and the Association of Police Authorities, among others, to check that the legislation is in good order and that it will work in practice. Preparations have started. The police area returning officers will be administering the elections across the police force areas, a number of meetings have taken place and the preparations are in good order.

The hon. Gentleman asked one or two other questions and I have dealt with his question about the language. He raised some concerns about the website and I can make it very clear that the Government have ensured that they will have no role at all in the content on the website, which will be dealt with by the police area returning officers. The Government’s role is to set up the function and ensure that the information is posted; we will not have any editorial control at all, as is appropriate.

[Mr Harper]

I can confirm that the legislation will be drafted—I am sure this will be tested when it is debated in the House—to ensure that it is clear that there will be no opportunity for the Government to have any role in deciding the content of the information. That would clearly not be appropriate.

Let me come to the final point about victim support services, which were mentioned by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies). It has been proposed—the consultation by the Ministry of Justice finished just a few days ago—to move from a national to a local model. The Government’s view, on which we consulted in our consultation document, is that rather than Whitehall attempting to pick those services and fund them across the country, the police and crime commissioners, who will be accountable to local people, will do a better job of making those judgments. I have read through the Ministry of Justice consultation document in full, as a local victim support organisation wrote to me in my capacity as a constituency MP and I wanted to ensure, having worked with Victim Support in the past, that I was confident about what would happen. I have been through the consultation document and I think the proposal is a good one that will mean more money gets spent, rather than less, and that decisions will be taken more locally. That makes sense, rather than trying to have a one-size-fits-all policy. The Ministry of Justice will consider the responses to the consultation very closely to see whether it needs to alter its policy in any way.

I think that I have answered all of the points raised by the hon. Member for Caerphilly, so, as we have one or two moments, do any of my colleagues who jumped up to intervene earlier want to do so before I sit down?

[Mr Mark Williams]

I thank my hon. Friend for what he said about the Welsh language, which is very important in large parts of Wales. What costings were made to examine combining the Electoral Commission’s booklet with an insertion from candidates?

[Mr Harper]

We did consider that and we discussed it with the Electoral Commission, which is, of course, producing one booklet to be distributed to every household across England and Wales. The difficulty is that if a booklet is going to be produced with the candidate information, 41 different versions will have to be produced. Logistically and for cost reasons, that is quite complicated. It is not quite as straightforward as my hon. Friend put it.

I hope that I have dealt with colleagues’ concerns and I am pleased that the debate was so well attended. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Caerphilly for raising points in the way that he did.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Letwin]

I hope the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends will help me to do so, because distinguished members of his party totally back the big society, including the former Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member for South Shields (David Miliband), who tells him and his colleagues:

“We should be for the Big Society.”

I therefore hope the hon. Gentleman will join me in putting across the idea that we should welcome the giving back of power to communities and individuals to change their own lives for the better.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

One of the ways the big society will succeed is through the dissemination of successful projects, for which the big society awards were intended to be one of the vehicles. What progress has been made with the awards?

[Mr Letwin]

I am happy to be able to tell my hon. Friend that the big society awards are alive and well and happening, with successive tranches of people coming in to get them. The Prime Minister is hugely devoted to this. It is important to recognise what communities and community groups are doing the length and breadth of the land.

Individual Voter Registration

Mark Williams Excerpts

Monday 16th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

I welcome this debate, and the consensual approach that has been taken by those on both Front Benches. That approach was not taken by the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane), who is no longer in his place, but I pay tribute to him for speaking with great passion on these matters. He genuinely cares about them, and he has an encyclopaedic knowledge of just about all the 1,900 electoral districts in Wales. He is attempting to set up an all-party group on this subject, which I think will attract widespread support in the House.

I hope that the debate will encourage the Government to take all the necessary measures to ensure that we have a register that is as complete as possible, that leaves us less open to fraud, and that, critically, enfranchises those who have not had ownership of their vote in recent years. I know that that is the Government’s intention, but we are all mindful of the recent report from the Electoral Commission, which showed that at least 6 million people who were eligible were not registered in December 2010. That figure could grow significantly if this matter is not handled with care.

We have heard concerns expressed over the potential for fraud. There is consensus over individual electoral registration, and it is important to reiterate that IER is not about a choice between integrity and completeness; if it is done in the correct way, it can be a means of achieving both. During the consultation on IER last year, my noble Friend Lord Tyler and I—on behalf of the Liberal Democrat Back-Bench committee on these matters—reiterated our party’s support for individual electoral registration, but we also highlighted our concerns over implementation, and we continue to do so. In particular, we believe that the legal requirement to register should remain.

I was pleased to hear last autumn that the Government will be looking again at the opt-out suggestion, and that the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) has reiterated that intention. I hope that the Government will continue in that vein and reflect on the legal requirement to register. I commend to the House the debate in the House of Lords that my noble Friend Lord Rennard conducted last Thursday, in which he observed that one of the main strengths of the existing registration system was that it was based on a legal requirement to register. That is also the view of electoral registration officers.

Prosecutions under the current offence are of course minimal; there were only 144 in the past year. The hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) mentioned the civic duty to register, and I would suggest that that is strengthened by phrases being included on the registration form. The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd also mentioned this, giving an example of people being told that they had to register every year by law, and being informed of the penalties for not doing so. I am not suggesting that we should extend the £1,000 penalty, but having a fixed-term penalty is a suggestion worth reflecting on. Without it, we run the risk of thousands of people not bothering to register. Whether those on the list choose to exercise the franchise is quite another matter and not what we are discussing today. I do not believe that there is a consensus on removing the legal requirement. The Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform—I see in his place its Chairman, the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen)—made that point very strongly.

The Government could be described as making—I hesitate to say this—a liberal argument for removing any sense of compulsion, but I feel that this duty is more of a burden to the state and the local authorities that have to chase the data than to any individual. There is little feeling now that compulsory registration is a burden for householders. I do not believe it would be a burden for individuals, but what we risk doing is undermining an important civic duty that, critically, will have knock-on implications in areas where we rely on electoral registration data, such as for jury service, as the newly elected hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra) was the first to point out. Jury service was not even considered as part of the Government’s impact assessment.

The key point, I feel, is that the worst possible time to remove the legal requirement is when we are changing the system we use. Individual electoral registration can be adopted without removing a legal requirement to register; indeed, it can be enhanced. In that spirit, I agree with the Select Committee’s recommendation of making it an offence to fail to complete the voter registration form, which could then be reviewed at the end of five years.

The second area of potential contention is the annual canvass—a canvass that will, if anything, be even more important in 2014. We must ensure that the changes to the system of registration are communicated and that, as usual, as many people are added to the register as possible. I would like to hear more from the Minister about what he means by the amended canvass. He has talked about putting in place a new system under which every voter will be contacted, but there is something special about the full household canvass. In particular, how will the Minister get to those hard-to-reach groups? He has indicated a willingness to look further at the issue of the 2014 canvass, but I want to reiterate how important this is for those hard-to-reach groups. It is important for them to have the ability not just to vote, but, as we have heard, to access credit. One of the first items checked by credit references companies is whether someone is on the electoral register.

I have mentioned and commended the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd who has on many occasions highlighted the example of one ward in my constituency. This ward combines the huge challenge—the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), like me, a former student of Aberystwyth university will understand this—of comprising a large student community, a huge number of houses in multiple occupancy and areas that are designated “deprived”. [Interruption.] I apologise, as my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) is another who will know this for the same reason. IER will fail those constituents if they are not given the chance—indeed, the incentive—to register.

Without reopening the whole issue of the redrawing of constituency boundaries, with which my colleagues with Welsh constituencies are coming to terms, I have to say that the spectre of the system of voter registration—not a move in the population or a decline in the population determining the size of a constituency—remains a big concern. Our Back-Bench committee also has concerns about ending the transitional stage in 2015. Clearly, given the importance of a complete register to the 2015 boundary review, it would also make sense for the transitional phase to encompass both that review and elections to the devolved Administrations and local authorities in 2016.

I think there is a growing consensus on those concerns, but I commend the Government for their work on data-matching pilots and I am encouraged by what we have heard about the experience of Northern Ireland in respect of schools. We need to use the enrolment process in universities to sign up students. The Government are undertaking a welter of other schemes, involving the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency and the Passport Office. I believe that the Government are in listening mode. They have listened to date and have taken heed of many of the concerns we have raised. I hope that that will continue. We will support the Government tonight, but on the basis that the listening approach will continue.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 14th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Maude]

As I said, we are actively engaged with the European Commission in supporting the good work that it is undertaking to streamline procurement processes, but we need to ensure—and I hope that the hon. Lady will do this—that the Administration in Northern Ireland do not overimplement the directives because we are finding that central Government and the wider public sector in Great Britain tend to do that.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

Notwithstanding what the Minister said about the economies of scale, the Federation of Small Businesses has reported an increased tendency for public sector contracts to be aggregated into much larger ones, thereby penalising smaller businesses. What has the Minister got to say to those small businesses?

[Mr Maude]

There is a whole range of procurement opportunities that are particularly suitable for smaller businesses. Even when we aggregate, that does not exclude small businesses. For example, we have just let the contracts for travel for the whole of Government and one of the successful two bidders is a very small business, which, as a result of winning that contract, will become a much bigger one.

Industrial Action

Mark Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Maude]

I do understand the concerns of public sector staff and I want to commend the 75% to 80% of public sector workers who have gone to work today as normal. No one had to go on strike. Discussions are continuing and, as I said, making progress on a daily basis. The hon. Gentleman mentions pensions for Members of Parliament. We are public sector workers. We have a very generous pension scheme. It needs to be reformed and I hope it will be.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

I declare an interest as a paid-up member of the NASUWT who is not supportive of the action taken today. The critical thing is the timing. Can the Minister reiterate and continue to reiterate the fact that negotiations went on yesterday, will go on tomorrow and, tragically, would have happened today had it not been for the action that has been taken?

[Mr Maude]

My hon. Friend is completely right on that. His own union will be in discussions with the education employers tomorrow. There is disruption caused by today’s action, but despite that there were discussions yesterday with civil service unions and there will be discussions tomorrow and on Friday with health unions. This process is still going ahead, which is why it is so hard to defend the action being taken today. I am just sorry that the Labour party cannot bring itself—does not have the guts—to say it is wrong.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

Community Service Volunteers is a great organisation and it had a spectacularly successful day. The answer lies in trying to reduce some of the barriers, such as the red tape that I mentioned, that stop people getting involved. It is also important to try to inspire people to step up and get more involved. That is why we believe that programmes such as Community Organisers and Community First, which are about bringing communities together to identify what they want to change and inspiring them to work together to make that change happen, can be a very powerful intervention.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

The Minister will be aware that this is national trustees week. Will he address two particular concerns of that campaign? The first is that the number of young people being attracted to become trustees is very small indeed, and the other is the fact that more than half of charities have at least one vacancy on their board of trustees.

[Mr Hurd]

The hon. Gentleman raises an extremely important point. We all know the value and importance of the work of trustees and the ability of a really good set of trustees to transform the capability of a charity or voluntary organisation. It is important that the Government will announce some steps to promote wider awareness of the opportunity to take part in being a trustee.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

I think that the hon. Gentleman will find that the Work programme, which this Government brought in, has introduced a level of tailored support for young people and others seeking work. The most important thing for people in the position of those he mentions is to regain work as quickly as possible.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

The Minister will be aware of the excellent work on youth training undertaken by Ceredigion Training in my constituency, which equips young people with the skills they need to gain work. Does he therefore share my concern that the Welsh Assembly Government have cut the work-based learning grant to Ceredigion Training, which means fewer apprenticeships and fewer opportunities for young people to get back into work?

[Mr Jones]

As my hon. Friend points out, the issue of economic development is firmly in the hands of the Welsh Assembly Government, as indeed is training. That is entirely a matter for them, but I am bound to say that, given the current economic backdrop, I was surprised that the economic development budget was cut last week.

Public Bodies Bill [Lords]

Mark Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 12th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to speak on a Bill that is a great improvement on the version originally presented in the House of Lords, although I do not think that the Minister quite conceded that.

Schedule 7, perhaps the most contentious part of the Bill, has gone, and there is much more restriction of Executive power. The Bill has been amended to require a statutory duty to consult on orders, the simple affirmative procedure has been replaced by an enhanced affirmative process whereby representations can be made to the Minister, and the Minister may re-lay an amended order if necessary. All bodies mentioned in the schedules are now subject to a five-year sunset clause, which means that authority to amend them is confined to the current Parliament and future Governments must either renew the legislation or pass their own. Notwithstanding the inevitable criticisms, this is not the same Bill that the House of Lords Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee said

“would grant to Ministers unacceptable discretion to rewrite the statute book, with inadequate parliamentary scrutiny of, and control over, the process.”

[Paul Flynn]

Does my hon. Friend recall the Welsh proverb “Mae allwedd arian yn agor pob clo”, which can be translated as “The key of money opens every lock”? It is both a suitable motto for the Murdoch empire and a warning that the money going to the BBC might be used to take over S4C.

[Mr Williams]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that quotation. I concur with the sentiment behind it, and I will say something about S4C in a moment. I also associate myself with the spirited defence of the channel presented by the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones).

The Bill still gives rise to concern on a number of grounds. We might expect that from a Bill that abolishes and reforms a significant number of public bodies, all of which will have their defenders—I shall defend two Welsh organisations later in my speech—but it is worth reflecting on the Government’s reasons for proceeding with it. Under Governments of all parties there has been a huge increase in the number of public bodies in the past 30 or 40 years, and the present Government face the need to reduce the deficit. I was relieved to hear the word “accountability” from my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office as frequently as I did.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Williams]

I have only four and a half minutes, but I will give way.

[Robert Flello]

I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He talks of accountability. The bereavement and support charity INQUEST says that the Government’s proposals to

“dismantle the office of the Chief Coroner”

will

“add yet another layer…to the…fragmented structure where lines of accountability are opaque and clear leadership is absent.”

The charity believes that accountability will be reduced if responsibility is given to the Ministry of Justice.

[Mr Williams]

I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was present when my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) mentioned the office of the chief coroner. I refer him to my right hon. Friend’s remarks.

I think we should remind ourselves of the consensus that exists. It is clear that setting about getting rid of a number of public bodies created by primary legislation raises significant challenges, and that the only way of making that achievable was to create a streamlined model. However, it is undoubtedly true that the Bill as originally presented was over-zealous. It was entirely unacceptable that the remaining bodies listed in schedule 7 could be added to other schedules by order. That is now rightly not the case, and the Bill is more suitable for the purpose for which it was intended.

I welcome the addition of clause 10, which creates a need to consult the person or office holder to which the proposal relates as well as persons

“representative of interests substantially affected by the proposal”.

That, I believe, needs to be reinforced.

In my constituency in the west of Wales, 60% of residents speak Welsh as a first language. S4C and plurality in Welsh language broadcasting is vital, and concerns remain about the model currently proposed and the impact that it would have on, in particular, S4C's governance and independence. I do not start from a “no change” position. At a time when other broadcasting bodies face significant cuts, S4C cannot—and, for that matter, does not—expect to be treated differently from other broadcasters. It has shown a willingness to discuss a new model with the DCMS and the BBC, but fundamental differences remain between the BBC and S4C.

The two basic concerns relate to long-term funding and guarantees of funding after 2015, which has been partly addressed—I will qualify that later—by yesterday's written statement, and to S4C’s remaining independent. Yesterday's written statement confirmed that an amendment would be introduced that would put in statute the level of funding for S4C that is required for it to meet its statutory remit as a Welsh language broadcaster. I await the text of the amendment, because it must pave the way for a formula set by the Government and not the BBC, providing parity with other broadcasting organisations.

It is also vital for S4C to remain financially and operationally independent, and not to be run by the BBC. The DCMS has made clear that it expects S4C to be independent, and has given a number of undertakings to guarantee that. It would be helpful if the Department also made abundantly clear that the BBC must not have its personnel in S4C's management team, and that S4C must remain in charge. Discussions are taking place to find a suitable model, but it is hard not to conclude that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has put all its eggs in one basket in an attempt to meet the time frame for this Bill, instead of addressing fundamentally the challenges of supporting S4C in an age when digital services have led to an increasingly fragmented market and at a time of reduced public expenditure. This looks rushed, and it would surely be better to carry out a full review of how S4C should be constituted, with the aim of finding a long-term solution, whether that be a model of full funding from Westminster, a partnership model along the lines proposed currently, albeit with a stronger guarantee of independence, or even a channel funded by the Welsh Government in the event of broadcasting being devolved.

All four party leaders in Wales wrote to the Culture Secretary in support of such a review. The Select Committee on Welsh Affairs report on S4C stated that this haste was “regrettable”, and the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport said that it found it

“extraordinary that the Government and the BBC, which is fiercely protective of its own independence, should find it acceptable to agree a change in the funding and governance arrangements for another statutorily independent broadcaster, S4C, without the latter having any involvement, say or even knowledge of the deal until it has been done.”

It strikes me that this is the respect agenda in reverse.

It is of great concern that very little consideration seems to have been given to an holistic way forward. On a matter as important as Welsh language broadcasting, that is obviously not good enough, and I would welcome it if the Minister provided an assessment of the current situation regarding negotiations over the future of S4C, and say whether the Government would consider removing the provisions relating to S4C until all the possible alternatives have been pursued. In the other place, a great deal of concern was expressed about Channel 4’s inclusion in the Public Bodies Bill and the uncertainty that created. Channel 4 has now been removed from it, and I believe S4C should also be removed.

Members on the Government Benches have spoken about Citizens Advice and the new functions it would assume from Consumer Focus. Again, in Wales this issue is particularly pressing because the current structure of Citizens Advice does not lend itself to Welsh governance. There is a separate structure in Scotland, which allows for Scottish matters to be looked at differently, but that is not the case in Wales, where policy work is led from London. Consumer Focus Wales wants an amendment led by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to give Assembly Ministers the power to determine the structure they want—a power not to acquire new powers, but to determine a Welsh structure.

I have focused on the concerns that still exist, but I do not want that to detract from what is a necessary measure. The Bill represents a step forward, but there are considerable—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Time is up.

House of Lords Reform

Mark Williams Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

It is a great privilege to have the opportunity to speak in favour of the long overdue reform of the second Chamber. I welcome the publication of the draft Bill and the appointment of the Joint Committee. I am sure that its members, given their background, will do an excellent job of scrutinising the proposed legislation.

Although the draft Bill may not be the direct product of the joint discussions that have taken place so far, it reflects broad areas of agreement. I hope that, more importantly, there will be an opportunity for thorough pre-legislative scrutiny, to which hon. Members of all parties will contribute in order to make it successful. It is a privilege to follow the right hon. Member for South Shields (David Miliband), who reminded us that progressive forces operate on both sides of the Chamber.

As the draft Bill makes clear, those of us who are reformists do not want the new second Chamber to compete with this House, but to retain its role as a revising Chamber. However, it is important—and a fundamental principle for many of us—that Members of that House have legitimacy through an election. That is only way in which they can have legitimacy.

Perhaps the House of Lords has become marginally more legitimate with the abolition of the hereditary principle. The right hon. Gentleman rightly alluded to the fact that that was an evolutionary process. Attempts were made to remove all the hereditary peers in one go, but that could not be achieved and 92 remained.

Liberal Democrats passionately believe in a 100% elected Chamber, but we appreciate the opportunity for evolutionary change: 80%, with 20% appointed, must not be squandered—it is a huge step in the right direction. However, we must emphasise that this House retains primacy. As well as Members being elected for the single 15-year terms, we will have a different electoral system, which will ensure that power remains in this place.

[Mel Stride]

My hon. Friend makes the important point, as several others have done, that we must not upset the balance of power between the other place and us. Does he agree with the comments that Lord Ashdown made last Tuesday? He said:

“The fact that we do not have democratic legitimacy undermines our capacity to act as a check and balance on the excessive power of the Executive backed by an excessive majority in the House of Commons.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 21 June 2011; Vol. 728, c. 1190.]

[Mr Williams]

I do not understand what the hon. Gentleman means. I have great sympathy with my noble Friend’s comments.

The Government’s critics have mentioned a lack of pre-legislative scrutiny of other Bills, but that is precisely why we have set up the Joint Committee, which is about to undertake such work, and why it is important to have a robust House of Lords, which will continue its function in scrutinising legislation. As someone who worked in the other place many years ago, I understand the sort of detailed scrutiny that was undertaken.

The expertise in the other place has been mentioned. I must say that that debate is 20 years out of date. When I was there 20 years ago, I had the privilege of sharing an office with a former lecturer at the London School of Economics, a former chairman of the Independent Broadcasting Authority, a former chairman of the National Coal Board and a former Minister for the arts. The composition of that House is very different now. It is dominated by people who have served in this place. Without being rude to those people, they spend a short time on the red Benches and go native.

[Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the expertise of the other place is a myth, because in fact there are many elected experts in this House? Experts have nothing to be afraid of in standing for election to this House. They could gain legitimacy to add to their expertise.

[Mr Mark Williams]

I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution, with which I of course agree. I simply observe that the points made about expertise in the other place are largely historical ones.

When the House of Lords operates well, it can make significant improvements to legislation, as we have seen recently in the passage of the Public Bodies Bill. I would hazard a guess that that will be vastly improved when it comes here shortly. That scrutiny role is vital, which is why we need to be clear on the role and responsibilities of a reformed second Chamber. My hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) mentioned the codification of those roles in a written constitution, but as my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister said, that is not the direction in which we are going.

Despite what some Opposition Members have said, the Parliament Act makes clear the primacy of this House. However, we need to make it clear to the public, who may not be as engaged in the debate as some of us would wish, that we expect senators or Lords, or whatever the Joint Committee decides to call them, to have a very different role.

Doubtless there will be questions about the size of a second Chamber. In this climate, the Government are absolutely right to have a streamlined House with committed Members. In the 2009-10 Session, only 281 out of 792 peers attended more than 75% of sittings; 85 attended less than 10%; and 46 did not attend at all. We need to ensure that the membership of the House is large enough for it to function adequately, and so that it can provide members for all its Committees and ensure healthy debate. I am not sure whether the agreed number will be 300, but that problem needs to be addressed by the Joint Committee. Importantly, the draft Bill alludes to the statutory appointments commission and independent 10-year terms for commissioners.

There is a risk of competing mandates, which should be avoided. My experience of Welsh devolution and the National Assembly for Wales is that there is no problem of legislatures and those who make laws knowing about their responsibilities. However, 12 years on, public confusion on the role of MPs and AMs remains. Perhaps that will wane in time.

[Thomas Docherty]

The hon. Gentleman cites devolution. I am sure he accepts that in Scotland there has been constant mission creep by MSPs on to Westminster territory, leaving aside the Scotland Act 1998. What guarantees can he give us that this House will not experience such mission creep by the other place?

[Mr Williams]

I can give the hon. Gentleman no guarantees, but that is one concern that the Joint Committee will address. I accept that risk, and it needs to be addressed. There needs to be specific reference to the four or six senators elected in Wales in the first tranche not undertaking constituency duties, and not competing with MPs or AMs to get on to the front page of local newspapers. Again, that points to the importance, as the Deputy Prime Minister said, of having different electoral systems and different term lengths to suit the different roles. Those guarantees will come from that legislation.

Although Members of the second Chamber ought not to have a constituency role, it is important to elect representatives from the regions and nations of this country and to provide a guaranteed presence, to end the bias towards London and the south-east. We have had some notable peers from Wales—the list is endless—and many still function there, but critically, they have had to rely on the patronage of the Prime Minister.

This is an historic opportunity to give legitimacy to the second Chamber and to remove the power of patronage. I accept that I have not had a huge number of e-mails or letters on this subject, but as the right hon. Member for South Shields said, that is not a reason to ignore the reform proposals.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Williams]

I will not, because time is very short.

During today’s debate, the proposals—[Interruption.] I anticipated being called to speak somewhat later—[Interruption.] I was about to say that the proposals have been characterised as a Bill. I would certainly lay that charge at noble Lords in another place. This is not a Bill but a draft Bill. There is much work to do, but it gives us the basis to develop a legitimate second Chamber which can undertake that scrutiny role. I was surprised that the Leader of the Opposition in another place described the proposals as a bad Bill. I sincerely hope that after the Joint Committee has finished, it will not be a bad Bill. She will have the opportunity to label it a bad Bill when the Committee’s work is done.

The draft Bill represents a huge step forward, and I hope that progressives on both sides of the House play their part in developing reform. I hope that we are not subjected to a Michael Foot-Enoch Powell 1968 holy alliance that stops otherwise sensible reform.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I have never before heard an hon. Member complain about me calling them early, but there is a first time for everything.

House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill)

Mark Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As I said earlier, I think that the Parliament Acts are very clear on that point.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

Does my right hon. Friend see these proposals as a means of empowering the voices of the devolved nations and the English regions? Manifestly, that will be achieved by electing people, rather than hand-picking appointees, in order to achieve balance across the country as a whole.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Clearly, a proportional electoral system, whichever one is finally settled on, would be reflective of opinion across the whole of the United Kingdom, so people across the United Kingdom can look forward to this as providing a greater reflection of opinions the length and breadth of the land.