Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Williams Excerpts

Thursday 9th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

I thank the hon. Lady for her comments about those who have worked so hard, and that situation was reflected across the country. As she rightly says, this is a devolved issue, and the Welsh Secretary and representatives of the Welsh Government have obviously been involved in our numerous Cobra meetings. I will be happy to pass on her comments, but I suggest that she takes up the matter directly with the Welsh Government and the Welsh Secretary.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

The Secretary of State will be aware of the extensive damage along the west Wales coastline, particularly in Ceredigion in the Aberystwyth and Borth areas. Flooding is a devolved matter, as he says, but is the prospect of a bid to the European Union solidarity fund, specifically set up for the restoration of defences and infrastructure, a feature of the discussions that he has had and will have with colleagues in Cardiff and the Secretary of State for Wales?

[Mr Paterson]

My hon. Friend makes a good suggestion, which is well worth the Welsh Government and the Welsh Secretary taking up. We are happy to help liaise with him, but ultimately we have to respect devolution, and if it is an issue of money for Wales, it is down to the Welsh Government to negotiate it.

Upland Sheep Farmers

Mark Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd April 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) for securing this timely and important debate. It is also good to have so many colleagues present, expressing their concerns about the communities in their areas. We have heard from Members representing at least three of the nations of the United Kingdom. We have heard from the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) and the hon. Members for Arfon (Hywel Williams), for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) and for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) from Wales. From Northern Ireland, we have heard from the hon. Members for South Antrim (Dr McCrea), for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for South Down (Ms Ritchie). From England, we have heard from the hon. Members for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman), for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) and for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney).

They all expressed the point of view of their constituents: a sense of horror at what has happened and a sense of the need to do everything we can to support a very vulnerable group of people and a vulnerable industry, because the last few weeks have been a disaster for many farmers in England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland. To experience such severe spring snowfall is almost unprecedented. We have never seen 10-ft drifts this late in the year. The point that the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire was making, and others were reflecting, is that it hit some of our most economically vulnerable farmers at their busiest time, with the lambing season in full swing. No wonder there are people who are experiencing genuine trauma as a consequence.

As the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire said, in the past few days the weather has improved, but when I visited Cumbria recently I saw a lot of snow still lying in the affected areas. Until that clears, which may take a considerable time in the highest areas, we will not be able to quantify the damage fully, but we know that in some individual cases it will be enormous.

I should stress that this problem is very geographically limited. There are some farms next to each other, one of which has been devastated and the next hardly touched. It is remarkable that some farms were very deeply affected and others were not. But for those that are affected there will be, as we already know, many thousands of dead sheep and lambs. As the hon. Member for Arfon said, although he said it in Welsh and I shall not attempt to do the same, a lot of those will be hefted sheep. They have been bred for generations on some of the roughest, highest, most isolated parts of the fells and uplands, and the loss of those animals only adds to the weight of the blow. As the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire told the House, he has had first-hand experience of the emotional trauma and the financial pain caused by losses on that scale.

I visited the north-west of England 10 days ago, to see the damage for myself. It was deeply shocking to see the effect on individual farmers. There is a real sense of devastation and there are people with massive worries about the future.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

That position was compounded by another point that my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) made, about the burial arrangements and whether the EU burial regulations are robust enough to deal with those very exceptional circumstances. What is the Minister’s view on that?

[Mr Heath]

I will return to that, if I may, in just a moment.

I met farmers who have lived their entire lives in the uplands. These are not soft people. These are not weak people. These are some of the strongest, hardest men and women that you would care to meet in this country. They were feeling quite clearly devastated by the position they now find themselves in. As the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) knows, I was in Northern Ireland a few days ago as well, just talking to people about their experiences there—not my responsibility, as he will appreciate, in terms of the devolved settlement—and I heard exactly the same stories; exactly the same pain was being felt.

Horsemeat

Mark Williams Excerpts

Thursday 14th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Heath]

What I said, and have repeatedly said, is that there is no evidence of material that is harmful to human health having been put on sale in this country. That is still the case, and I am very glad that that is the case. We are testing for bute. That is the prime responsibility of the Food Standards Agency. It worries me sometimes that people seem to think that food safety is a secondary issue. It is not. It is the prime responsibility.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

Can my hon. Friend confirm whether the FSA has been able to contact all the businesses and retailers on the customer lists of the two raided properties, one of which is in my constituency?

[Mr Heath]

The FSA is examining the paperwork from those companies at the moment. I understand that some of it is a little difficult to interpret. I cannot give my hon. Friend a categorical assurance, because some of the meat present appears to have been unlabelled and therefore its destination is unknown. The FSA and the police are certainly taking every action they can, but at the moment they are examining the paperwork.

Common Agricultural Policy Reform

Mark Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 12th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Roger Williams]

I agree. The direct payment protects the farmer from various things, including volatile commodity prices and poor and problematic weather conditions, which have a huge effect on profitability. Without the direct payment, many farmers would not be able to continue in business.

I, along with organisations such as the Country Land and Business Association, fear that modulation of this kind could undermine the ability of UK farmers to compete. I note the findings of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee “Greening the CAP” report. It stated:

“The competitiveness of UK farmers will be reduced if they are exposed to higher modulation rates than their European counterparts. We therefore recommend that Defra does not set modulation rates higher than other Member States that receive similar single farm payment rates.”

In terms of rural development, or pillar two, the UK receives the lowest per hectare allocation of funds because of the rebate the Government receive from Europe. A further reduction could turn farmers away from all the good they are doing in developing wildlife under the existing pillar two. The Government must make sure that as much positive management for wildlife as possible continues as we approach the 2020 deadline for improvements in biodiversity. Pillar two has delivered real improvements for the environment; the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds receives £5 million from the CAP, for instance.

For a number of agricultural sectors, direct payments make up the majority of farm income, yet under EU rules farmers cannot receive payments for undertaking environmental work. They can be paid compensation only for the losses and costs incurred as a result of that environmental work. I believe there should be a system that genuinely rewards farmers for undertaking environmental work, and I am sure the Minister agrees. A deal must be done under the Irish presidency, thereby allowing for a period of transition in which farmers can make informed business decisions before the policy takes effect.

The British and European public have great expectations for CAP reform. They expect farmers across Europe to provide quality food and increase food security, and to increase exports within the EU and further afield. They also require our farmers to be sustainable and to deliver public goods such as biodiversity, landscaping, water purity and granting greater access to farmland. These two goals can be achieved only if agriculture is profitable and successful. Farmers cannot, however, be expected to commit their lives to such a role within the sector without receiving sufficient support and investment. It is therefore essential to have a single farm payment that is set at a level that allows farmers to remain profitable and deal with the challenges they face.

Recently, the single farm payment accounted for 80% of the total profitability of English agriculture, and in this financial year it will probably account for even more. The profitability of English agriculture is therefore clearly closely linked to the income from the single farm payment.

The challenges facing farmers vary widely. Globally, prices for commodities remain volatile, and the dairy industry has seen some of the lowest prices for milk in recent times. High input costs such as for fuel, fertiliser, feed and chemicals are hitting farmers across all sectors, too. We also face increasingly inconsistent weather, which has resulted in the lowest wheat yields since the 1980s, while dairy farmers have had to keep cattle indoors and revert to winter feeding early, all at extra cost. These effects are felt globally as well as here in the UK; the United States has experienced its worst drought in 56 years, for instance, leading to poor yields and crop abandonment in some areas.

I also want to make the case for extra support for hill farmers. They find it difficult to compete with people farming more advantageous areas. The CAP does not give specific support for hill farming.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. The point about hill farmers leads me back to one of his original questions about the voice of regional government and national Government in the final regulations. Is he satisfied that the voice of Wales—in particular Welsh hill farmers—is being acknowledged in those negotiations and discussions?

[Roger Williams]

My hon. Friend points to a significant problem and I am not convinced at the moment that the future of hill farmers in Wales, England and the other devolved nations is secure. Will the Minister say what negotiations are taking place on behalf of the hill farming community? I do not seek to maintain the absolute level for CAP expenditure and it is far more important that British farmers are treated fairly and equitably. We operate in a single market in Europe and whatever settlement is finally reached, the terms and conditions applied to our farmers—whether the transfer to pillar two or the greening rules—must not put us at a disadvantage with our major competitors.

English farmers have already undergone substantial and radical reform through the full decoupling of direct support payments, the cutting of farm payments at national level, and the progressive move towards an area-based payments system. The combination of those policy decisions, all taken at national level by previous DEFRA Ministers, means that this year a dairy farmer in the Netherlands will receive a payment that is 91% higher than that received by an English dairy farmer. The reform should seek to narrow the gap in support levels compared with our competitors, and it certainly should not make it any worse.

I thank the Minister for listening and appreciate the size of the challenge faced by him and his ministerial team.

Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [Lords]

Mark Williams Excerpts

Monday 19th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Jo Swinson]

The hon. Gentleman expresses an understandable desire to make sure that the role of adjudicator can be up and running as soon as possible. We all share that desire. I am sure, however, that he would not want the publication of the guidance to be rushed. Although I would be happy if the adjudicator, once in place, decides that the full six months is not needed and the guidance can be published earlier, it would not be wise to force a faster timetable if that was not felt to be possible.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

My hon. Friend mentioned recommendations on possible changes that the adjudicator could make to the code’s remit. Will she say a little more about the extent of those changes because, as she will be aware, many primary producers across the country are really anxious?

[Jo Swinson]

It is not envisaged that such changes would necessarily be wide-ranging, because the role of adjudicator is based on the original Competition Commission reports and the findings of detriment to consumers resulting from excessive risks and costs being passed on to suppliers. If there are related issues that the groceries code adjudicator feels warrant a slight change to the code, he or she can make that recommendation, but that is the remit for what such changes would be. I hope that is helpful to my hon. Friend.

To add to a point raised earlier, there will be no restrictions on who can complain to the adjudicator, and the complainant’s identity will be kept in strict confidence. That means the adjudicator can receive information from any source, including direct and indirect suppliers, famers, whistleblowers within large retailers, and trade associations representing their members. That change was very much welcomed in the other place because it is important, and there is a genuine concern about a climate of fear among some suppliers. The change that has been made deals with that concern.

If the adjudicator, as a result of the evidence they have been provided with, has reasonable grounds to suspect that the code has been breached, they will be able to start an investigation and gather more information from relevant retailers and others. If the investigation finds that a retailer has broken the code, the adjudicator will have tough sanctions, for example the so-called “name and shame” powers to require retailers to publish information about a breach in the trade or national press. We think that those sanctions are powerful enough to uphold the code. However, if that proves not to be the case, the Bill allows the Secretary of State to grant the adjudicator a power to impose financial penalties as well.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

It is a privilege to follow the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie). Like her, I represent a rural constituency, and I can testify to the great passion that many people there, including those in the Farmers Union of Wales and the National Farmers Union, attach to this issue. I can think of no meeting that I have held in the past 12 years or so as I have fought elections in Ceredigion at which the issues of an ombudsman, an adjudicator and the overwhelming power of the supermarkets have not arisen.

There has been consensus in the House today. We have resisted some of the partisan points made in the earlier stage of the debate. Reference was made to a quote from the noble Lord Grantchester in the other place about the fingerprints of the previous Labour Government being all over the Bill. The fingerprints of this Government are all over it as well, in the form of those of the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), the Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) and, critically, my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George), who has done so much work on this subject. Also, my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) put a huge amount of effort into his private Member’s Bill, to which I was privileged to be a co-signatory, towards the end of the previous Labour Government.

We are where we are, and we need to be clear about what the Bill will achieve—which I think will be commendable —as well as what I hope that it should achieve. I share the concerns that have been raised here today and by the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee and the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee. Before I address those concerns, however, I want to add another test, which I shall call the Ceredigion test. The test asks how the Bill will impact on the large number of small family farms across my constituency in west Wales. The truth is that, as the Bill stands, it might not have as robust an impact as it should, but I am sure that we will have an opportunity to table amendments to it as it continues its passage.

We have heard today about toothless dogs sitting on ministerial ledges waiting to be dusted down if necessary. We have heard about tigers with a proliferation of gums but no teeth. The hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) talked about kicking supermarkets where it hurts. An important theme in today’s debate has been the power to impose fines. We have also heard about a lengthy list of signatories to a letter from the interest groups that have urged the Government to think again about fines. They include the Farmers Union of Wales, the National Farmers Union, ActionAid UK, the British Independent Fruit Growers Association, the Campaign to Protect Rural England, the Church of England, the Country Land and Business Association, the Federation of Small Businesses, the Forum of Private Business, the Tenant Farmers Association, Unite the union, the World Society for the Protection of Animals, the Worldwide Fund for Nature and the National Federation of Women’s Institutes. We ignore the Women’s Institute at our peril, as others have found out in the past.

So long has been the gestation period of the legislation that expectations are running very high indeed. As the Bill stands, however, fines could be enforced only if an order by the Secretary of State under schedule 3 was in force. The Government have stated that such an order could be made, if it were deemed necessary, and that the power to fine could be enacted in six months. It must be said in the Government’s defence that that represents an advance, which was the result of deliberations in the House of Lords. That was a step in the right direction, and I hope that we can have further such discussions during the Bill’s passage through the House of Commons. On Second Reading in another place, we heard complaints that the proposed process was too cumbersome and laborious. I agreed with that at the time, and I would hazard a guess that six months will still prove lengthy and cumbersome, given the enormity of the complaints that are sometimes made against our supermarkets.

The Government have argued that naming and shaming is disincentive enough for retailers, and that having the ability to fine from the outset could create hostility in the industry. I agree that naming and shaming can influence consumers on where to buy. Had the Minister of State’s predecessor—my right hon. Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Sir James Paice)—not brokered a deal in the dairy sector, an elaborate and effective campaign against certain supermarkets would have been launched. We must be realistic about how far this can go, however, and I question whether naming and shaming is disincentive enough in comparison with having the capacity to levy those fines from the outset.

I know the Minister is aware of these concerns—as will be his colleagues in BIS after this debate. At the very least, I would like to hear a response from the Minister to the question posed by the Chair of the DEFRA Committee about the circumstances in which an order in the Bill should or should not apply.

I wish to raise some points about the accessibility of the adjudicator to everyone in the industry. Two weeks ago, the Welsh Affairs Committee, of which the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) and I are members, visited my constituency and took evidence on the status of the dairy farming industry in Wales. We took evidence from the Farmers Union of Wales and the National Farmers Union, as well as from the Welsh Assembly’s Rural Affairs Minister, Mr Alun Davies. There was a consensus from all groups that the adjudicator must be accessible to everyone throughout the chain. As the FUW argued, the adjudicator should not be just about the relationship between two parties—the 10 supermarkets and their suppliers—because in a Welsh context, the majority of farmers operate on a much smaller scale and are not in direct supply contracts with those 10 supermarkets.

The argument is that the adjudicator must be able to intervene throughout the entire chain. It needs to be easy to lodge a complaint, but this is not helped by the fact that the supply chain is not transparent, so it would be unreasonable for a producer to be able to lodge a claim that requires a lot of evidentiary support. The adjudicator needs to be accessible for all producers, including the small family farms in rural Wales. This is impeded, of course, by a code that is laudable but by nature defines the relationship between 10 large supermarkets and their suppliers.

Does the Minister accept that there is a case for the powers of the adjudicator to be extended to cover all powerful companies—big and small—within the supply chains or at least that the adjudicator can be charged with gathering evidence relating to any abuses? I concur with what the NFU said in its briefing, suggesting that the adjudicator should be able to recommend changes to the code, which is the foundation of what we are discussing today. Is the adjudicator able to recommend changes to the code? I also ask the Minister to clarify the extent of the changes that could be recommended. If the plight of primary producers continues to be problematic, the adjudicator may be the best person to make a request to extend the code and possibly extend its remit to others in the supply chain, should they receive complaints of this nature.

I have two final points. First, I welcome what the Government have said about the anonymity of complainants. This has been a prevailing theme through all these deliberations over the last few years—the constraint that the fear factor has placed on a number of potential complainants.

Secondly, to raise a point touched on by my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives, what resources will be available to the adjudicator? Will he be able to look at issues arising since the origins of the code, which are immense, and will sufficient resources be available for him to do so?

The Food and Drink Federation has said that

“abuses of retail power by retailers damage suppliers’ confidence, and their ability to invest and innovate”.

This has led to a reduction in choice and availability, and it increases costs for consumers.

This Bill is designed to protect suppliers from unfair breaches of contract, but as we have heard, it does not address all the issues of fair pricing to farmers and producers. In the context of the dairy industry, we look to the voluntary code to help us in that respect. Sometimes, as I have found in going to agricultural meetings across my constituency, this has been characterised as the panacea or great solution to all the problems and challenges that the farming industry faces. Somebody—in government or, implicitly, there is a responsibility on all of us—has to talk earnestly and honestly to constituents and remind them that this is not the only way in which we are going to assist and support a vibrant agricultural sector. The Bill is one important part of the process, but it will not achieve everything. It is a critical step towards fair treatment for all producers and it has the potential to do much more. In Welsh there is the phrase “Chwarae Teg”, which means “fair play”. That is what I believe this Bill is out to achieve. With further consideration and further amendment, too, I hope it can achieve that.

department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

Mark Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

I return to an issue that colleagues raised a little earlier: the dairy sector, its critical importance to the economy, and the crisis that it faces. Last week, there was a gathering of 2,500 milk producers in central London; 300 of them were Welsh dairy farmers. There is understandably enormous strength of feeling on the part of the farming industry, following the latest round of cuts. We have heard from other hon. Members, and it is not an overstatement to say that the price cuts threaten the very future of many of the family farms that we represent, not just in Wales but across the United Kingdom as a whole. Indeed, the shortfall from that round of cuts will cost the Welsh dairy industry alone an estimated £80 million per annum—a huge sum of money that will put many dairy farmers out of business. The right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) discussed the hit that businesses would suffer—£40,000, £50,000, or £60,000—and that would drive many struggling family farms out of business.

Although the price cuts have been set by milk processing companies, there are things that Government can do to assist our dairy farmers. The Government have commendably introduced the Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill, which is going through the other place, and I share the farming industry’s eagerness to put that law in place as quickly as possible. I am relieved that, after so long, legislation is coming our way, as it will restore some confidence in the industry and enable consumers to make real choices between the practices of different supermarkets, allowing them to choose which ones they shop from. It will provide, I hope, an adjudicator with real teeth, but it will not guarantee farm incomes.

[Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)]

Asda has said today that it will put its prices up by 3p for direct sales for farmers, but in 2010, it dropped the price of milk for four pints from £1.50 to £1. Does my hon. Friend agree that that brought about the drop in milk prices across the piece?

[Mr Williams]

My hon. Friend graphically illustrates the inconsistent role of some supermarkets. Along with the groceries code adjudicator, we need to look at how we can bring about fair contracts, to which everyone who has spoken has alluded, to stop the exploitation—an emotive word, yes, but that is the perception on the farms that I represent, as well as that of the National Farmers Union and the Farmers Union of Wales. The contracts that farmers are required to enter are simply unfair, as they are required to give 12 months’ notice or more to pull out of them whereas, as we have heard, processors can change the price they pay for milk at a few days’ notice, or quite literally overnight.

The Government are right to move towards a voluntary code. Like other Members, I look forward to an update from the Minister but I hope that if necessary, the Government will proceed with regulation. As Lord Plumb said in another place, rule books without referees generally have limitations. We all agree in the House that farmers deserve to receive the production cost for their milk, but Robert Wiseman Dairies has announced that from 1 August it will pay 24.73p per litre for milk. Arla Foods milk price will fall to 25p a litre, and the First Milk price to 24.35p a litre—5p less than the cost of production. Any situation in which farmers have to accept less than the cost of production is unsustainable. I commend Waitrose, Sainsbury’s, Tesco, and Marks and Spencer on the positive work that they have undertaken, but we need to ensure that those agreements are made across the board, from retailers to processors, with all major buyers of milk and dairy products agreeing to commit to a sustainable purchasing strategy.

[Helen Goodman]

Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that there is a problem with milk imports from countries with lower animal welfare standards and costs, and that those imports are not labelled in the UK?

[Mr Williams]

The hon. Lady served in the previous Parliament when, to be fair, the issue of labelling rose to prominence. It is critical, because it enables consumers to make informed decisions.

Given the feelings in the farming community about the recent price cuts, compounded by difficult weather conditions and rising input costs on-farm, the Government need to make it clear to processors and supermarkets that their failure to deliver fair prices may lead to severe disruption to the supply chain with dire implications not just to farmers but ultimately to us as consumers.

It is always worth remembering that the losses in the dairy sector will have a huge—I do not use that word lightly—impact on the broader rural economy. Welsh Assembly Government statistics indicate that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) said, the number of dairy farms has reduced by 800 over the five years from 2006 to 2011. The number of dairy farmers in Wales alone halved in the past 13 years. This figure will rise if we do not take action over the current price slash and unfair contractual obligations, because they will mean many job losses across the industry among suppliers.

Next week the Welsh farming community, in its widest sense, will gather for the Royal Welsh show in Builth Wells in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams). We will see there the breadth of the farming community. The supermarkets, the farming unions and the Young Farmers will be there, as will the machinery contractors, the feedstuff merchants and the farming families from Wales and beyond. I make this prediction: whatever the weather, the sheer number of people there will illustrate how important the industry is to rural Wales. The stakes are high.

It is election time in Ceredigion, when we have hustings with the farming unions—the FUW and the NFU. Before elections, I am always asked this question: “Would you encourage a young farmer, the son of a farming family, to go into the industry and continue with the family farm to earn a living and contribute to the broader rural community?” With hand on heart, if things do not improve and we do not have action, I would hesitate about whether I could say yes to that question.

Rural Communities

Mark Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 17th April 2012 Westminster Hall

[Sheryll Murray]

We certainly do. I happened to travel to the midlands at the weekend and the price of fuel in South East Cornwall was 10p per litre higher than in Bristol. I wrote a letter to the Chancellor last night, outlining my constituents’ worries about fuel prices. I said that I appreciated the terrible economic situation that the previous Government had left us in, and I fully understand that there is little room for manoeuvre. However, the fuel situation is getting worse and causing many of my constituents great hardship.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

Has the hon. Lady reflected on the position of a lot of the smaller, independent, family-run filling stations? We are losing those stations by the hundreds every year, and in the process we often lose other valuable village facilities, such as a shop or post office, which are often incorporated in the business.

[Sheryll Murray]

The hon. Gentleman will accept that that is not a trend that has just begun under this Government. It started in the early 2000s, when we saw petrol stations in rural areas haemorrhage, which demonstrates that there was very little support for our rural communities under the last Government.

Public transport is weak in South East Cornwall; there are very few buses and there is little access to the railways. It is clear that the majority of the rural population drive, but it is also important to have some kind of alternative. Everyone has periods when they cannot drive, whether because of age, medical reasons or the car has broken down. Unlike in towns, where the local GP’s surgery can be a few hundred metres from someone’s home, in the country it can be a few miles away.

Similarly, in rural areas, train stations are often a great distance away from people’s homes and transport is needed to get to the station. So railways cannot be seen as a solution in their own right. However, we need to encourage people on to the railways and other forms of public transport. The train is often the best method for commuting to the cities, thus avoiding the congested roads that buses also travel along.

The March 2012 report, “Reforming our Railways: Putting the Customer First” said that the Government are allocating funding for additional capacity for people to commute to cities at peak times, including faster journey times, more frequent trains, more through-journeys, more reliable journeys and more cost-efficient journeys. I hope that the South West Trains franchise will make some of those improvements.

The lack of public transport and the increase in the price of fuel are major concerns for people in South East Cornwall. Wages in Cornwall are very low in relation to both the south-west as a whole and the rest of the country. In 2001, the average income per household in South East Cornwall was around £23,000. Since then, the figure has not changed significantly. Any increase in fuel prices is disproportionately felt in my constituency, as are increases to many other household bills. In my constituency, the average house price is around 10 times the average household income.

Transport is important in supporting our rural communities, and it has a knock-on effect on people’s standards of living. I am glad that the Government are committed to helping our rural poor. There are initiatives such as the Cott Yard community resource centre in St Neot in my constituency, where £330,000 was provided under the community and social enterprise, or CASE, initiative, which is a funding stream in Cornwall that was part of the rural development plan for England. That project is one such example of the Government helping rural areas. It provides rural workshops, a post office and a library run by volunteers, to deliver services in rural areas. Another such example is the fisheries local action group, or FLAG, initiative, whereby substantial funding is provided under the European fisheries fund. It has been enlarged to support coastal communities as a whole, extending out to one mile from the coast. I am really pleased that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has introduced those initiatives, and long may they continue and be built on.

We all accept the economic legacy left by Labour’s maxing out of our credit cards, and I hope that the two examples that I have just given will be built on, so that we have faster positive changes to help our constituents living in rural areas.

--- Later in debate ---

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

It is a great pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I congratulate the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) on securing the debate. I have fond memories of his constituency. Back in 1999, I stood in the first Assembly elections and managed to come fifth. The good people of his constituency were not ready for me then, but I enjoyed the experience and the fantastic countryside there.

The hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire has made the topic of this conversation deliberately wide, and Members have taken advantage of that. I want to mention one or two issues that perhaps have not been covered. First, I congratulate the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on its determined efforts to eradicate bovine TB in this country, which I know are appreciated by the farming people here. They do not bear comparison, however, with what is happening in Wales, where the farmers are almost despairing about what can be done to alleviate their problems.

I want to talk a little about financial services in rural areas. I have recently had the honour of introducing two debates in this Chamber on the closure of banks in rural areas, which is an important issue because rural communities want to attract not only tourists but businesses, and without banking facilities that can be difficult. I think that not just in rural areas or in Wales but more widely, the relationship between small businesses and banks has never been at a lower ebb.

[Mr Mark Williams]

Will my hon. Friend also reflect on the banks’ usual retort when asked about the diminishing number of branches, which is that online banking is a growing occurrence? In some parts of our constituencies that is not a reality because we have no broadband at all, let alone the superfast type.

[Roger Williams]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, and it is not only the absence of broadband. Sometimes, older people do not have the facility or the aptitude to take advantage of online banking, so we still need the face-to-face presence and advice that bank customers greatly value.

The issue also goes a little further. Today, I was sad to see that the number of complaints about banks made by small businesses to the Financial Ombudsman Service has gone up by 10% in the past year. It is only very small businesses that can use the ombudsman facility, so we have a number of such businesses being badly treated by their banks. For instance, not only are overdraft or loan requests turned down but the terms and conditions of such facilities are changed midway through. The Government once again need to sit down with the banks and say, “If we are all in this together and we are going for growth, you have to play your part.”

I think that the Government sometimes do not really understand the structure of business in this country. Whenever they trumpet support for business they talk about reducing corporation tax. That is much valued, but out of the nearly 4 million businesses in England only one third are incorporated, so the other two thirds will not benefit from the reduction in the tax, and the £100,000 reduction in capital allowances will particularly weigh on businesses that pay their tax through self-assessment—sole traders and partners.

On the role of independent filling stations, one operator in Sennybridge in my constituency has brought me evidence that the wholesale operation of the petrol supply chain is concentrated in a small number of hands, which could lead to difficulties with competition and access. He has sent information to the Office of Fair Trading, and I will send a copy to the Minister. This is a dangerous situation. Many of our independent filling stations have already closed, and if the process continues, a lot more could do so.

I am looking at the time, Mr Hood. The clock says that I have spoken for 11 minutes already, so I am not sure how much longer I have.

Public Bodies Bill [Lords]

Mark Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 25th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

I will be brief, but there are some important points that need to be made. First, I follow the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman in thanking the ministerial team who served on the Bill Committee. Being the mouthpiece for several other Government Departments was an onerous task, and they performed it very effectively.

The Bill has been on a long journey since its introduction in the other place. I hope there is still broad agreement on the original principles. When I was sitting in Committee, I continually reminded myself of the three yardsticks the Ministers had set: transparency, accountability and the economics of quangos. All the parties wish to reduce the number of quangos but, as many were created through primary legislation, it was necessary to adopt a streamlined approach that would allow Ministers to modify and abolish existing quangos. I think the Government now accept—grudgingly, at least—that the initial powers in the Bill as introduced in the other place were far too sweeping. That has changed, and we now have a much better Bill.

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) and my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) said, this is still a work in progress. The Ministers in Committee reminded us constantly that this was enabling legislation. As one of my friends who was concerned with S4C alone reminded me today, that is still unfinished business. We have had some welcome news today, but there is still going to be a public consultation, there are still various regulatory hurdles that the Cabinet Office will have to overcome, there will still be an order under the Bill and an operating agreement—at least I hope we will get this—will still need to be reached with the BBC. So there are still issues to be dealt with.

I welcome the fact that this Bill provides for an enhanced devolution process and, in particular, grants Welsh Ministers the power to create their own environmental body to take on the functions of the Environment Agency Wales, the Countryside Council for Wales and the Forestry Commission Wales. I regret, however, that the principle was not extended to consumer advocacy. I know that the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) was hoping to pursue that on Report if his amendment had been accepted—it was the amendment that I moved in Committee.

[Alun Michael]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that point. It is important that Ministers continue the discussions that have been taking place with the Ministers in the Welsh Assembly Government to ensure that the systems put in place for Wales are appropriate and properly resourced, and that this is not allowed to wither on the vine. I endorse the point that he is making about the importance of this matter.

[Mr Williams]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that comment. As he is aware, the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs is undertaking an inquiry on this matter and we will not allow it to wither on the vine. The requests of the Welsh Assembly Government must be responded to.

In not pursuing the amendment that some of us sought, we are missing an opportunity to ensure that Wales can have the best possible model to deal with consumer policy. The Bill will pass tonight, but in the coming weeks and months the Government will present the results of consultations on the consumer landscape and if they do decide that Wales should have the power on these matters, sadly they will have no suitable legislative vehicle to grant that.

I welcome the announcement on S4C, although I regret more that we did not have an opportunity to talk about S4C today. We had a prolonged debate in Committee on it but, like the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams), I would have welcomed the opportunity to push our amendment on providing financial stability for S4C. I welcome today’s announcement that the BBC will not have representatives on S4C’s management board, but S4C will still be reporting to the BBC under the terms of the operating agreement, once it is finalised, and will be reliant on the BBC for its funding. That decision did not need to be taken now in this Bill; it could have been taken in the forthcoming communications Bill, and concerns remain.

We heard the welcome announcement by the Government that there is now to be a duty on the Secretary of State to provide sufficient funds, although how closely involved the Secretary of State will be remains to be seen. I am firmly of the opinion that this must not just be a rubber stamp of whatever the BBC decides. Like the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), I feel that until the day when devolution is passed down to the Cynulliad as part of that settlement, the Secretary of State must be central to and engaged in the process.

We do now have a longer-term funding settlement. Again, it is welcome that S4C has a better long-term idea of its funding, albeit not at the level that some of us hoped for. But what we tried to achieve in Committee and hoped to achieve on Report were genuine stable funding criteria that will provide guidance and direction on what S4C requires. That is particularly important to the creative industries in Wales. I have concerns that tying S4C into the operation agreement that it will have––to which it has perhaps reluctantly agreed––means that it is difficult to see protections for its independence, particularly its operational independence.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Is it not the case that this morning’s agreement between S4C and the BBC has guaranteed a six-year funding stream for S4C? In the current economic climate, would not the majority of small businesses be very grateful for a six-year funding guarantee?

[Mr Williams]

I ask my hon. Friend to examine the justification given some 15 years ago by the Conservative Minister at the time for a stable, formula-based funding settlement for S4C. It was convincing in 1996 and I suggest that that is the direction the Government should have taken.

Nobody at S4C has ever doubted the need to make cuts to reduce costs but the Government need to recognise that the action they are taking is not tinkering around the edges or making a few savings but fundamentally changing the dynamic that makes S4C valued by fluent Welsh speakers and Welsh learners. It is a guarantee for the independence that is valued. This decision should not be taken lightly, but I have to say, without the history lessons that we considered at great length in Committee, that the decision was rushed and taken without due consideration.

I sincerely hope that the arrangements work well and that the assurances that have convinced my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) and others are realised but I fear that the S4C we knew has been changed for ever. As someone who represents a Welsh-speaking constituency, I testify to the importance of this issue. I do not regret for one moment the hours we spent talking about these issues on Second Reading and in Committee. Had we been given the chance, we would have spent some time on them on Report as well.