Welfare Reform Bill
Lord Touhig Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Thomas of Winchester
My Lords, I strongly support this amendment and perhaps I might read it out, because it is a long time since we first started talking about it. It would insert:
“including a requirement for the decision maker to collect evidence from the claimant’s own health care professionals as a part of the decision making process”.
There is a strong suspicion that this is not always done. The only thing that I would quibble with in that amendment is that not only does the decision-maker have to collect evidence, it has to be taken into account when the decision-making process is gone into.
My question for my noble friend is about a sentence that I found in one of the documents we were given—I cannot now remember which one it is. It says:
“Decision Makers will change erroneous decisions rather than send them to a Tribunal”.
The next sentence says:
“If a claimant’s points at issue are not resolved, they can still appeal to the HM Courts & Tribunals Service”.
I had to go to a tribunal having had my papers re-examined, presumably by a decision- maker. What will change about the process now with PIP? I am not quite sure, reading between the lines, what the two sentences that I have read out mean. Are things going to change from now, or not?
Lord Touhig
My Lords, I have already spoken in this debate but I ask the Committee’s indulgence to make one other brief comment. The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, has tabled Amendment 86ZAA in this group. Yesterday, she was mortified when she realised that she has a commitment today which it is impossible to break and she cannot be here. I know that she has apologised to the Minister. She has asked me to extend that apology to the whole Committee and asked that I make one brief comment on her behalf. If she had been here, she would have said that if a person has a clearly diagnosed and irreversible condition, they should not be required to have continuing assessments as it causes them concern and adds unnecessary cost to the system. I think that point has been made by other noble Lords in the debate, but the noble Baroness was really keen to get that point on the record and, again, she apologises for not being here today.
The Lord Bishop of Blackburn
My Lords, I speak broadly in favour of this group of amendments, which address the fact that the assessment of individuals for eligibility for PIP is a complex and very stressful process both for those being assessed and for assessors, unless the assessors are appropriately trained and supported. That is a vital point that we must take on board: that the assessors must be well trained and well supported.
I remain concerned about the tests that the assessed are being put through, the activities and the scoring. I am not one of those bishops who have not come up through the ranks, as it were; I have spent most of my ministry in parishes. From a long ministry in parishes—I still visit the elderly regularly—I have seen parishioners able one day to prepare and cook a meal, and to be able to do virtually everything for themselves. Then I have gone in the next day or the next week and they can do very little unaided. These tests can be no more than a snapshot and we must again take that on board.
All along I have believed that there will be a real need for the most careful monitoring: the assessment cannot be made on a tick-box basis. That, I am afraid, is how it looks to many of us at the moment. It is essential that the tests and assessments are made by those who are adequately trained and qualified and have the perception to see that someone’s performance the next day will perhaps produce a different score.
Baroness Wilkins
My Lords, at the risk of replaying the record, this is an important amendment because it would go a long way to protect the Government from facing the same sort of vilification that they have received from their introduction of the work capacity assessment for employment and support allowance. Much more importantly, it would protect disabled people from facing the anxiety, illness and ill health they have experienced while undergoing the headlong rush to reassess the 1.5 million claimants for incapacity benefit. That reassessment has gone ahead despite the fact that the Government know that the assessment criteria are seriously flawed.
As the Minister of State at the DWP, Mr Chris Grayling, said in the other place on 24 October:
“We have received suggested descriptors for mental, cognitive and intellectual function from Professor Harrington’s working group. Given that they represent a substantial departure from how the current assessment works, we are considering what impact they will have and will come forward with proposals soon”.
That is fine. He went on:
“The challenge facing us is that the recommendations will involve a complete change of the work capability assessment, not simply for mental health issues, but for physical issues, and is therefore a multi-year project”.—[Official Report, Commons, 24/10/11; col. 8]
Let us not make the same mistake again. Or rather, please let the Government not make the same mistake again.
I was going to quote from the lady I mentioned in an earlier debate, a GP who attended a recruitment evening for Atos assessments, and who wrote in the BMJ this year. The figures that she was quoted about what a doctor could earn from the assessment process were, I found, quite shocking.
Sessional doctors work a minimum four sessions a week, and are paid per item: £51.37 for non-domiciliary disability living allowance examinations, for example. The application forms for sessional doctors state :
“10 DLA domiciliary visits cases per week would earn £40, 211.60 per annum”.
I ask the Minister—and I apologise if he has already given this answer to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie—what is the Government’s estimate of the cost of re-examining the thousands of people whose conditions will not change, or will only worsen? And can he remind us how often he is expecting them to be reassessed ?
Lord Touhig
My Lords, like many noble Lords I am a great fan of pre-legislative scrutiny, because I think it improves the quality of the legislation we pass. I also have great faith in this Committee system, because we go through a Bill line by line in order to improve it, amend it, and make good law as a result. I certainly support this amendment, because a trial period does make sense.
I look across at my good colleague the noble Baroness, Lady Browning. She and I sat on the Public Accounts Committee in the other place. Time and again we considered reports from the National Audit Office which showed that some great government scheme, some great initiative, had gone billions of pounds over budget, or gone over time. Inevitably we found that these things had not been trialled beforehand, to see if key elements of the proposals would work effectively.
Some unfortunate Permanent Secretary would be brought before the Public Accounts Committee, and like modern-day Draculas, we drew a lot of blood in our interrogations. Inevitably, this Permanent Secretary was not responsible for what the department had got wrong, anyway; it was the previous incumbent, but that is by the by. We were seeking to learn lessons, but inevitably it was like closing the door after the horse had bolted. If only more care had been taken, or things had been trialled and piloted beforehand, then things would not have gone wrong in the way that they did.
If the Government take this amendment on board, it has the potential to save millions of pounds. If the Bill does not take account of this, then somewhere down the track the NAO will come in, in two or three years, and find that there has been some great failure, or some great cost. The Public Accounts Committee will have to investigate, and the Department for Work and Pensions will be held up again as having failed to pilot or introduce a scheme in a good or effective way, as it promised it would. The amendment makes a lot of sense, and I hope the Minister will see that.
Baroness Browning
My Lords, this is the first opportunity I have had to contribute to the Committee. I declare my interest both as the named carer of an adult with autism and as, I believe, somebody who will need to attend the assessment meeting with him. I am that other person, so I am more than personally interested in this legislation.
My friend the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, made a good point about getting good value for money and making sure a system works. However, there is another point about trialling it with new applicants. I remain cautious about the ability of a lot of people newly recruited for the purpose to carry out what will be really quite difficult balances of judgment across a wide section of people, particularly those with learning disabilities, mental health conditions and autistic spectrum disorders, some of whom will have two or all three of the conditions.
I refer the Minister to my personal experience over many years: I am very proud to have raised the very first debate on Asperger’s syndrome in the House of Commons many years ago. When it came to getting contracts signed for people to get people into paid employment, one of the contract requirements was that the various agencies and commercial companies had a full understanding of this range of really quite difficult disabilities. All too often that training and preparation was based on reading up and taking a bit of advice. It never, ever, made the mark.
To give an example, in the case of people on the autistic spectrum it is well known—if I am to generalise and as has been said quite rightly they are individuals who will all display individual characteristics—that their lack of imagination and inability to express and understand non-factual things, as opposed to in some cases a quite high level of ability in understanding factual information, very often leads one to read in manuals and books about autism that if you converse with somebody on the spectrum it is best not to deal in generalities but to deal with specific questions that require specific answers. Some of the contracts that have been issued in the past to get people with autism into work have led the people assessing their aptitude for employment to carry out conversations that frankly beggar belief. I have had some personal experience of this. The questioning would be very much along the line not of, “How are you?”—that is a difficult question to answer—but “Do you live in your own home?”, “How many chairs do you have in your sitting room?” and “What size is your television screen?”. There was a mistaken belief that this was a normal conversation that somebody on the autistic spectrum would feel comfortable with. In one example the person being questioned was actually very intelligent and felt straightaway that they were being patronised, as any of us in this Room would have done.
Therefore, a lead-in period is needed to assess not just the value for money and the way in which this new system is working but also to allow for time, which is really needed, to make sure that the people carrying out these assessments have a working knowledge of some of the more complex conditions and a much better understanding to be able to make their judgment.
I hope the Minister will listen carefully to the points that are being made to allow a lead-in time for new applicants so that we can get this right.
Welfare Reform Bill
Lord Touhig Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Sassoon
It is certainly the case that if the law were not brought into line with what the Chancellor intended, at some point HMRC would have to make adjustments to the incorrect clawbacks that were calculated. We can discuss this for as long as we want. The fact is that there was a clear policy announcement. It should have gone through in the original statutory instrument—I think it was 2011/1035—and a claimant can at any stage ask for an appeal and ask to have their payments recalculated. However, clearly it would be pointless to do so if they expect that the amendment we are now debating will be agreed and will get the position back to where it ought to have been all along.
Lord Touhig
My Lords, I am not clear on this. Are the Government saying that people who had money taken from them that should not have been taken are not going to have it given back to them? The Government have acted outside the law. People have been disadvantaged. Is it the Government’s intention to give back to these people the money that they were entitled to, as the law specifies?
Lord Sassoon
The technical position is that what is paid during the year is only an interim award. Of course, HMRC seeks to pay all entitlements on a correct basis. However, the final calculation is done at the end of the tax year. Therefore, at the moment HMRC is quite properly paying what it believes will be the position once we get the legislation lined up with the original policy intention.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, as I understand it that is not the position. The position for all taxpayers and claimants has to be finally calculated at the end of the year—and in many circumstances it can be done only then—because all sorts of circumstances may have changed. The issue is to get the legislation right in respect of this tax year. HMRC has calculated everything to date on the basis that there will be no further adjustments required at the end of the tax year once we get the legislation back into alignment with what was originally intended.
I appreciate the intention of noble Lords opposite to make hay out of this. It was a technical error in a statutory instrument that should not have happened. The amendment we are considering today is not to change anything midway through the year but to change the law with effect from 6 April 2011. There is going to be no unfairness and everything will be in line with exactly what my right honourable friend the Chancellor announced in the first place.
Lord Touhig
Make hay, my Lords? Some of the poorest people in this country have been denied the support they are entitled to. Is it true at 3.40 on a Monday afternoon we have a government Minister coming to Parliament and saying they are going to be denied the money that Parliament says they should have? Is that the case? Let us have a straight yes or no. Will these people get the money the law says they should have if we agree this amendment today?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, nobody is being misled because the Chancellor of the Exchequer made the position extremely clear in his original Budget Statement. People have had their calculations made on the basis of the Statement by the Chancellor. What we are doing today is part of the process of getting the law into alignment with that to make absolutely sure that people are paid precisely what was announced in the June 2010 Budget.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, perhaps I may intervene briefly in view of the fact that I arrived at exactly the moment the noble Lord, Lord Low, was making kindly references to me in his speech, although he will probably not have recognised it until a bit later. I was told subsequently by the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, that she has also referred to me in reasonably friendly terms and I am duly grateful for that and also for what I understand were friendly references made towards the back end of last week by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, and possibly also again by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister.
If you wonder why I have not been here it is not just because I am so busy but because I was frightened off by the phalanx of female Peers that fell on me the last time I was here for some entirely innocent remark. It has taken me a long while—believe it if you will—to regain my self-confidence. However, I am here and since I have not heard all the debate I am not going to attempt to comment in detail. Also, it would look a bit odd for me to defend the name or the precise detail of it or anything else that I and the late Nick Scott—who played a seminal part in all this and should be remembered in this context—put in place 22 years or so ago.
It is important to recognise from what has been said, even while I have been here, that it has captured the support of disabled people as a phrase, a concept and a purpose, and it would be a huge shame if—I gather that the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, has used this phrase—we landed up throwing the baby out with the bathwater and losing some of what was gained with DLA, even if it is obviously right that at this stage, 20-plus years on, it should be reviewed and refreshed.
All my instinctive sympathy says that if this nomenclature is what disabled people themselves would like, are comfortable with and feel reflects their needs, I cannot see why we should die in a ditch to change it. That is my position, and I will leave it there with the Minister. I am looking forward to his usual—what was the word used about the noble Earl, Lord Howe, in the papers yesterday: silky?—silky and constructive reply.
Lord Touhig
What’s in a name? I come from south-east Wales where these things are important. We all call the Department for Work and Pensions the DWP, but in my part of Wales “dwp” is a word; it means “stupid”. It seems to me that if we are creating a new benefit, it ought to have some relation to the people it is supposed to support.
I am president of a group at home called Access. It campaigns on behalf of people with disabilities. Our members are middle-aged and militant. If they see cars parked on pavements, they stick stickers on them saying, “Pavements are for people. Shift it”, and they go back to check whether the cars have been moved. When the town centre was being redesigned, they persuaded two council officials to sit in wheelchairs and said, “You try to get into town and see the problems”. I talked to some members recently about this because they were asking about the new benefit and what a personal independence payment is. One, who I have known for many years, said to me, “I am not independent. I am wheelchair-bound and dependent on my husband, my family and my friends. Surely the benefit ought to reflect the fact that it is support for me as a disabled person”. So I have every sympathy with those who have tabled this amendment. It is important that the name reflects the people that it is to support and aid. It is quite reasonable to propose that “disability” should be in the name of this new benefit.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester
My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with this amendment. I shall get my interest out of the way at the outset of this Committee stage as I, too, receive DLA. I shall be very brief. It is almost as though the Government want to airbrush the word “disability” out of the picture. I cannot think why, except that they want to signal a change of approach. It is this very fact that is making disabled people so worried that they may not qualify for the new benefit. Can my noble friend say why the words “personal independence payments” were used and whether it is too late to change things? This is not something I would die in a ditch over because there are so many other things in the Bill that may be in that category, but not having the word “disability” in the name is a terrible mistake, so I support this amendment.
Lord Touhig
My Lords, I begin by following the very proper example of the noble Lord, Lord Low, and apologise to the Committee for not participating in its debates until day 13. I have attended a number of sessions and amendments are down in my name and other colleagues’ names and have been down for some time but other commitments in the House have prevented me being here. I do not show any disrespect to the hard work this Committee has done because of that.
The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, in her Amendment 86ZZZUA makes a very important point. She is seeking to amend Clause 78 entitled, “Ability to carry out daily living activities or mobility activities”. It makes commonsense for anyone doing that also to seek to collect evidence from the claimant’s own medical healthcare professionals. I hope the Government will certainly see that.
The noble Lord, Lord Addington, very ably put the case for his Amendment 86ZZA which I and others have supported. It expresses concern about people who will carry out assessments having the right and proper qualifications. In making legislation we must learn the lessons of what we have done before and the noble Lord, Lord Addington, referred to it. My party when in government in 2008 introduced the work capability assessment as part of the employment and support allowance. It has been flawed. It has been shown that—the noble Lord just has made this point— 40 per cent of those who appeal against decisions have had their appeal upheld. Clearly there is a problem. It is important to have proper qualified people to carry out assessments. Indeed, Professor Harrington, in his report, recommended that there be mental, intellectual and cognitive champions in each medical assessment centre to support professionals in assessing those with such disabilities. Again, that makes sense.
I shall give two brief anecdotes to the Committee, if I may, from my time in the other place. On one occasion a family came to see me. They had been on holiday and their daughter, a young woman, was staying with an aunt in the same street a couple of houses away. She went home one morning to collect the post only to find a man sitting in a car outside the house. He got out saying that he was Dr So-and-So who had come to assess whether she was still entitled to benefits. The young woman protested; she knew nothing about it. He insisted on coming into the House to carry out an assessment of her, resulting in her benefit being stopped. This young woman was in a wheelchair and had been disabled from birth. The point I am making is that sometimes there is such a casual approach even under the present system to these assessments that I am worried that if we do not have properly qualified people, we will not get proper and fair results in future assessments.
In the other case, a woman came to see me whose benefit had been stopped. I listened to her arguments, read the papers, and so on. I thought this was unjust and took up her case. After about two months I was getting nowhere. I wrote back and forth and eventually asked for all the documents that the assessor completed when the assessment to remove her benefit was done. At the top of the first page on the right-hand side, the assessor had written “Wore a fish badge, probably a Christian”. I am not saying that that had any impact on the assessment but what was going through that chap’s mind when he carried out the assessment? Indeed, when I went back to the department they were so concerned that they did not want any bad publicity and the benefit was restored. My point is that sometimes the casual way in which those assessments are done is detrimental. We must ensure that people have proper assessments.
The purpose of Amendments 86ZA and 86ZB in my name, that of my noble friend Lady Healy of Primrose Hill, my noble colleague and fellow countryman, the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, are to ensure that claimants are not put through a face-to-face assessment where it is possible to determine the question of a claimant’s entitlement to a benefit on the basis of available, medical and social assessment evidence. That approach will not only save a great deal of money but would avoid placing undue stress on claimants with a disability or a significant illness.
I understand that the Government have estimated the cost of implementing the changes to DLA, including the new assessment regime, in the region of about £675 million. They plan to reassess all current recipients of DLA as part of the move to PIP and PIP claimants will also be reassessed regularly. The National Autistic Society has raised specific concerns about the introduction of face-to-face assessments for the new benefit, particularly given the experience of the work capability assessment to which I have already referred. When the educational support allowance was first introduced in 2008 the National Autistic Society followed a group with autism through the work capability assessment process and identified that the medical assessment was a particular barrier to fully assessing need. Many people reported that the Atos doctors undertaking the assessment did not have a full understanding of people with autism. I share the NAS belief that face-to-face assessments are not necessarily an appropriate way to assess the needs of people with autism because of the nature of their condition and associated difficulties that many have with communication.
Last Wednesday I was in Nottingham attending the annual meeting of the National Autistic Society. The question of replacing DLA with PIP and the worry about face-to-face assessments were on the minds of a lot of people there. I spoke to people about the problems this would cause for their autistic sons and daughters. If anyone needs to understand what autism is, I would start with four words: autism is for life. It is as simple as that. I repeat, autism is for life. One of the founders of the National Autistic Society, Lorna Wing, said, “When you have seen one person with autism, you have seen one person with autism”. That is important to understand because the autism spectrum is such that no two cases are the same.
Welfare Reform Bill
Lord Touhig Excerpts(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Touhig
My Lords, I will focus my remarks on Part 4 of the Bill, which will bring in a new benefit called the personal independence payment to replace disability living allowance. In particular, I will consider the impact of the changes on people with autism.
Disability living allowance is a key benefit for many people with autism, designed to meet the additional costs of their disability. The National Autistic Society has said that reform of disability living allowance could offer an opportunity to ensure that the needs of people with autism, who are some of the most vulnerable in our society, are better understood in the allocation of benefit. It has welcomed the increased focus on participation, communication and the ability to plan and make a journey, all outlined in the consultation documents on the reform as well as in the draft regulations. However, the National Autistic Society, along with other disability organisations, has serious concerns that the objective of a 20 per cent cut in projected spend on the award seems to be the main driver for change. If this is the case, a significant number of adults with a disability will lose out.
Our fear is compounded by the Government’s stated intention to focus benefit on those with greatest need, which is yet to be defined, and with the proposed introduction of a new assessment process, including face-to-face interviews. Like many noble Lords, I share the National Autistic Society’s concerns about the introduction of face-to-face assessment for the new benefit, particularly given the experience of the work capability assessment. The National Autistic Society followed a group of people with autism through the work capability assessment process and found that the medical assessment was a particular barrier to having needs fully and properly assessed. Face-to-face assessments for people with autism are problematic and can be extremely stressful.
Autism is a lifelong developmental disability that affects the way a person communicates with and relates to another person. Areas of difficulty include an inability to understand the nuances of language, facial expressions or tone of voice, and a propensity to take everything literally. In light of this, an interview with a stranger asking questions that you may not understand or be able to answer accurately due to the language barrier is hardly the best method of assessment. But the many different types of communication barrier also mean that an assessor untrained in autism may not pick up on the difficulties faced by the person with autism or Asperger’s syndrome. For example, if an individual on the autism spectrum has known about their interview for weeks, they may spend those weeks practising what to say in order to come across well in a way that will perhaps not truly reflect their actual communication struggles. They may come across as not having any noticeable communication difficulties and therefore be wrongly assessed.
People with autism also often lack insight into their condition and may not have a good understanding of what areas of their daily life they need help with. They could also fail to mention real areas of difficulty because they do not comprehend their importance or because they are eager to please. However, an assessor with no knowledge of autism is very unlikely to understand this. An effective diagnostic assessment of someone’s communication skills would often need to be carried out over a period of several hours, across different days and in different environments. A half-hour session with a stranger is far too blunt a tool to make a proper and fair assessment.
There are particular concerns, as other noble Lords have already mentioned, about who will carry out these assessments and what training their staff will have with autism. How we can be assured that the staff who will carry out the assessment will have adequate training in autism? Autism is particularly poorly understood among health professionals in this country. Indeed, research by the National Audit Office in 2009 found that 80 per cent of general practitioners did not feel that they had enough knowledge and training in autism. Can the Minister explain what the Government intend to do to ensure that adequate and specialist training for assessors is in place so that adults with autism can have their needs comprehensively and fairly assessed?
Organisations representing people with disabilities have been encouraged by government pledges in Written Answers and in response to the disability living allowance consultation that they understand that face-to-face assessments are not suitable for everyone. Indeed, the Minister stated in Lords Questions on 10 March this year that where it is not “realistic, helpful or appropriate”, the Government would not insist that applicants for personal independence payment be seen face to face. Could the Minister clarify what this means and commit to putting safeguards in the Bill to ensure that individuals for whom it is inappropriate are not put through face-to-face assessments unnecessarily?
As well as the limited timeframe, other factors make it difficult for proper scrutiny of the Bill to take place. The draft regulations provide no indications of the points that would be awarded for each of the criteria. Essentially, Parliament is being asked to scrutinise clauses for the personal independence payment on the basis of regulations that make it far from clear who will qualify for the benefit in 2013. That makes it extremely difficult to estimate what the impact on people with disabilities will be.
I therefore have two further questions for the Minister. Will he commit the Government to introducing biennial reviews of the implementation of the benefit to ensure appropriate scrutiny of the operation of the benefits in place? Will he also commit to ensuring that all regulations relating to the personal independence payment will be subject to affirmative resolutions so that this House and the other place can be given the opportunity to scrutinise the regulations?
For the sake of public finances in the medium and long term, for the sake of the integrity of the new benefit, but—most especially and in particular—for the sake of many people on the autism spectrum for whom DLA is their only lifeline, I ask the Minister to seriously and comprehensively review both the process and the assessment criteria for the new personal independence payment and ensure that, when introduced, it will be fit for purpose.
Autism: Personal Independence Payments
Lord Touhig Excerpts(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Touhig
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what impact the assessment criteria for personal independence payments are anticipated to have on the number of people with autism who will claim the allowance, compared with the number of those who claim disability living allowance.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)
My Lords, it is too early to identify what the impact of the personal independence payment will be, as we are still developing the new assessment criteria. We are determined that the personal independence payment will be fairer than the disability living allowance, taking better account of the impact of mental, cognitive and intellectual impairments. The inclusion of activities around communication, planning and following a journey will help assess the impact of autistic spectrum disorders on individuals’ lives.
Lord Touhig
I thank the Minister for his very helpful reply. Is he aware that the way in which the draft assessment criteria for the new personal independence payments are framed, coupled with the 20 per cent cut in spending and a focus on those with the greatest personal care needs, could mean that many people with autism will lose the lifeline currently provided by the existing disability living allowance? Will the Minister say how the Government will ensure that this vulnerable group of people will continue to get the much needed financial support required to give them a good quality of life?
Lord Freud
My Lords, first, I must reinforce the point which I know I have made in the Chamber before; when people talk about cuts, they mean cuts on projections. The actual payments are essentially being held flat in real terms. We have looked at the initial assessments and are currently revising them in the light of our experience and after speaking to many groups, including the National Autistic Society, in order to refine the assessment. We will publish that and our findings in the next couple of months.
Autism: Disability Living Allowance
Lord Touhig Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Freud
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for bringing up this really important matter. As I say, we are designing the personal independence payment now. One of the things that we want to get absolutely right is how we look after the most vulnerable. The default position is that we would like to see people face to face, but where that is not realistic, helpful or appropriate we will not be doing so. We will also encourage people, autistic people as well as others, to bring a carer, a family member or a professional with them so that we get the best evidence-based result that we possibly can.
Lord Touhig
My Lords, the Government’s decision to scrap the mobility award for people in residential care will certainly adversely affect those with autism. There is now to be a review, although I share the view of the National Autistic Society that the original decision was wrong and no review is necessary. However, we are where we are, so can the Minister tell the House what the terms of reference for the review will be?
Lord Freud
My Lords, there is no review. We are reviewing the position of the mobility allowance in the context of an overall look at the personal independence payment. As I have told the House in the past, we are committed to making sure that people in residential care homes maintain mobility.
Social Fund Maternity Grant Amendment Regulations 2011
Lord Touhig Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Touhig
To move to resolve that this House regrets that Her Majesty’s Government have laid before Parliament the Social Fund Maternity Grant Amendment Regulations 2011 (SI 2011/100) at unnecessary speed and without providing more information on the impact on new mothers and children in low-income families; and notes with concern that the regulations will remove funds from some of the poorest families during the crucial early months of a child’s life.
Relevant document: 20th Report from the Merits Committee.
Lord Touhig
My Lords, my noble friend Lady Sherlock secured this debate and I pay tribute to her for doing so. However, it is with great regret that she has had to withdraw, and she has asked me to speak in her place. I agreed to do so willingly, but alas I fear that I will not execute the task as well as she would have done. I should also declare an interest as president of HomeStart in my former constituency of Islwyn.
The two poorest groups in our society are those at the extreme end of the age range—pensioners and young children—and the change the Government are making to the Social Fund Maternity Grant is an outright attack on young children born into some of the poorest families in Britain. Put simply, at present women receiving certain means-tested benefits can get a grant of £500 to help with the costs of a new baby. The Government intend to abolish this payment for the second and subsequent children. A woman who gives birth to a new baby will lose the grant if she already has another child aged under 16 in the household.
The Government are planning £9 billion of cuts in the tax and benefits system, and some £4 billion of those are going to come from child support. I believe that this shows that the Government are out of touch. They assume that parents need only to spend the grant to acquire a pram, a pushchair, a cot, baby clothes and all that is needed for a newborn child just once in a lifetime. I suppose they imagine that all these things can be stored away as the first child grows out of them in case another child follows, and they assume that this storage can go on for 16 years.
This is an attack on some 150,000 of the poorest families in Britain. The Government are taking this step without proper consultation and against the advice of well-known family support groups such as Gingerbread and the Social Security Advisory Committee. Yes, even the advice of the Social Security Advisory Committee, the independent body which provides impartial advice to the Government on these matters, is being ignored. The advisory committee has described the proposals to restrict the maternity grant as lacking a “coherently argued rationale” and has stated that they appear to run counter to Government policy to abolish child poverty by 2020.
The department responsible, the Department for Work and Pensions, has stated that:
“This change will undoubtedly cause hardship for some cases. However this will not impact on the child poverty figures”,
due to the fact that maternity grants are one-off lump-sum payments which do nothing to increase annual income. The department is known across Whitehall as DWP, which is also a word in Welsh—“dwp” means stupid and daft in the head. Anyone who actually believes that this measure will not impact on child poverty is not taking the issue seriously at all. Indeed, Gingerbread has said:
“The DWP fails to recognise the significant and negative impact that this measure will have on the ability of poor and low-income families to buy essential baby equipment. Single parents are more likely than couple families to be poor: 52% of children in single parent families grow up poor. If a single parent has just separated from a partner, they are likely to have experienced a drop in income. If they are pregnant, or later become pregnant and cannot claim the [grant] because they already have a child under 16, many will struggle to buy items such as a pushchair, cot and car seat. If they have fled domestic violence and have no belongings for themselves or their other child, this situation is [made even worse]. The impact is likely to be particularly great where there is more than a two-year gap between children”.
Gingerbread also points out that the,
“DWP mistakenly assumes that [the grant] will have been claimed for the first child”,
But the organisation’s helpline suggests that large numbers of people do not claim the grant for their child through ignorance or the complexity of the tax and benefits system.
The Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee of your Lordships' House said that the Government’s target of 24 January for the coming into force of the instrument in order for the change to take effect in April of this year,
“has severely curtailed both the time available for consultation and for Parliamentary scrutiny”.
Furthermore, the SSAC was able to consult for only nine days on this proposal—a dismally short period. Alas, this is becoming typical of the Government, who seem to view consultation and scrutiny as optional, rather than viewing them as mechanisms which can improve government proposals and mitigate their worst, ill-thought-out effects.
As the Merits Committee noted, no impact assessment has been provided to Parliament. Little information has been given on the costs of alternative policy options and the department had not explained why the option chosen was preferred. Again, this looks like policy made on the hoof for short-term political, rather than long-term welfare, considerations.
The Social Security Advisory Committee suggested that the way in which Government have alighted on some decisions as part of this policy change lacks reasoned explanation. The committee pointed to the way in which the Government had arrived at the exceptions to the new rules, and why the option to restrict to payments who are the only children under 16 in a family was chosen above the other options presented to them. The proposal is that if there is a child in the family under the age of 16, there is no entitlement to the maternity grant. The SSAC believes that,
“this is an unreasonably high threshold and should be set at a much lower age, possibly as low as five”.
This point is reiterated by the Merits Committee, which noted:
“The rationale for limiting eligibility to households where there is no child under 16 is not explained. While it is reasonable to expect some recycling of baby equipment among siblings, the SSAC points out that it seems unrealistic to think that parents of a fifteen year old would retain baby goods that long”.
My wife and I have four children, and there was a five-year gap between the birth of our third and fourth children. I can tell your Lordships that when the fourth child arrived we had to go out and buy a whole new lot of equipment.
The advisory committee states that,
“the changes to the rules for Sure Start Maternity Grants are based on an assumption that the payments are made on the basis of meeting additional expenses incurred by the purchase of new items regarded as necessary for a baby, and that they fail to recognise ongoing or recurrent costs such as the need for the mother to eat healthily or for the home to be kept sufficiently warm”.
This would suggest that this policy, like so many that the Government have put forward, has not been properly thought through.
One respondent to the advisory committee noted that,
“each pregnancy and preparation for a baby costs an average of £1,600, and that this estimate does not simply include the ‘hardware’ required but also additional heating and travel costs for hospital visits: so there are considerable costs that cannot be met by ‘recycling’ goods from a previous pregnancy”.
The Government have not properly considered what costs incurred for children apply to every child and cannot be mitigated by hand-downs. As a result, their proposal to restrict maternity grants to the first child looks increasingly muddled and will produce significant hardships for families across the country.
There will be an intervening period of eight to 12 months between the introduction of the new rules for maternity grants and the introduction of mitigating measures to extend Social Fund budgeting loans to include maternity items. The Social Security Advisory Committee said that,
“this would mean that many people will be left without any alternative means for meeting the additional expenditure incurred by a second or subsequent baby beyond going without or having to resort to high cost lenders”.
One of the most worrying aspects of the proposals is the lack of a safety net for those who lose their grant. While a loan facility will eventually be available, the changes are not being put in place at the same time. The mitigation measures will not come into effect until at least eight months after the cuts to maternity grants have been implemented.
The committee said that it was particularly concerned about this, stating:
“It would be a difficult enough step for someone who would have been entitled to an SSMG of £500, to go to having to apply for a budgeting loan for the required items. But it is an entirely different matter if there is no provision to be made at all within the benefits system and they were expected to borrow commercially instead. People eligible for an SSMG would be unlikely to have access to low-cost credit – indeed many would need to borrow at APRs in excess of 100 or even 200%”.
The advisory committee urged the Government to look at halving their budget for this grant and to look at the impact of other changes; for example, to housing benefit, health in pregnancy grant and tax credits. It said that no such evaluation of the rationale had been presented to them. Respondents to the advisory committee pointed out that the cuts in the maternity grant will cause hardships for families which may translate into additional costs for other bodies such as local authority social services departments and the NHS. The SSAC therefore concluded that a more tempered level of saving may be achieved than other outcomes would yield.
The committee also observed that the low-income families eligible to apply for the grant are those most likely to have been in temporary accommodation or in homes with cramped conditions, which would make it unlikely that they would have had places for long-term, regular storage of baby equipment. Anyone with a new child knows how much stuff children can generate as they grow up and grow out of their baby clothing and equipment. People living in cramped conditions simply cannot keep such things just in case they have more children. The policy ignores conditions in low-income families and the realities of their situations, quite possibly because too many in the Government have no experience of, or any concern about, people living in such conditions. Most concerning, it risks exposing children born into low-income families to poverty from the moment they are born. That simply cannot be right for the fourth-richest country on the planet. It is not morally right either.
Rather than listening to the SSAC, the body which is supposed to advise the Government on these issues, the Government have instead pushed ahead blindly and said that they have no plans even to review the policy. It is typical of the arrogance that this Government now display that they never seem to listen to reasoned arguments or objections from any outside source, but rather they assume that they are right and that everyone else is wrong.
The Merits Committee concluded:
“This instrument seems to have been inadequately planned and explained”.
It wisely suggested that your Lordships,
“may wish to press the DWP for a better explanation of why the other options suggested were not pursued and what the anticipated impact on new mothers and children in low-income families will be”.
I hope that the Minister has some encouraging answers.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
My Lords, I support the Motion of Regret put so ably by my noble friend Lord Touhig. I shall speak very briefly and widen out the debate a little.
There has been a lot of discussion in your Lordships' House recently on early intervention. There have also been many reports recently, including one by Frank Field on child poverty and one by Graham Allen on early intervention. I thought and hoped that the Government would have understood the importance of spending now to save later.
During the recent debate on parenting of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, I was greatly impressed by a statement from the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. He cited the Graham Allen report on early intervention, which said that decades of expensive late intervention had failed. In his response, the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Hill, said:
“I hope that it is also fair to say that this Government, like the previous Government, recognise the importance of the early years in children's lives and development”.—[Official Report, 3/2/11; col. 1500.]
How true, but do the Government still recognise that?
This measure, cutting a grant to low-income families, may well contribute to both poverty and to poorer outcomes for children. It may not seem like much money, but it is to some people and some families generally. The loss of the money could affect the lives of not only the child or children—and some people have twins—but also affect the relationship between the parents. Stress can be created by poverty, and poverty affects relationships. It also affects maternal health, which is a key to good health and achievement in children.
Lord German
My Lords, I should like to take a rounded view of these regulations and put them in the context of the activity of the Government in terms of poverty. There are some issues which noble Lords on the Benches opposite have raised which require some answers from the Minister and I shall raise one or two myself.
First, it is important to recognise that these regulations have the effect of providing a level of savings within the DWP budget—that is undeniable—and that these types of decisions are never easy. At face value, of course, this could be simply seen as yet another cost-saving exercise, which is the thrust of the previous three speeches. However, it should also be looked at in the broader context. I shall examine both sides of the issue in my contribution to the debate.
I preface my remarks by posing a question to the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, the mover of this Motion of regret. I shall not correct him on his Welsh mutations; I shall explain to him afterwards—
Lord German
Yes, the “d” should be a “t”.
The question is about the level of savings that he and his party are looking for in the public finances and whether they are put back into good order within five years or, as I understand it from his party, within seven years. Perhaps he can tell me because I have been struggling to find the answer to the question. What is the level of interest on the loan that the country now has and the debt that we have to repay if it is to be spread over seven years rather than five, which I think was his party’s policy? At the moment we have to repay £120 million a day in interest for the next five years. If we went for the seven-year position, what savings would we need to look at from within the budgets of all the departments in the country? I still fail to understand that. As we all know, it is easy to stand up and say, “Do not cut this or that”, if in the end the summation does not add up to the figure—which I understand is the position of the Labour party at the moment.
However, I recognise that this is part of a package designed to save money and that, if the circumstances for the country were appropriate, we would not have wanted to do this. If the finances were strong, I doubt whether this would have appeared on the horizon. Fundamentally, the judgment here comes down to the question of whether this particular set of regulations fits within the whole scheme of reforms and changes to our work and benefits regime, in the context of the economy as we find it. You cannot see one particular benefit set in isolation without considering the rest. Right from the beginning when the universal benefit regime was talked about in your Lordships’ House, and through the discussion and questions about it here, I have always been attracted by one of its fundamental aims—a fundamental aim of the whole revision of the benefits structure from its current complex base to something much more straightforward and simple—which is to lift people out of poverty. The impact assessment produced by the Government showed figures which, frankly, would have made everybody around this Chamber smile.
The principal aim of the universal benefit Bill and the new work programme is to lift people out of poverty. That programme itself requires investment: it has a £4.5 billion price tag. Part of that has to be funded from within the savings that can be made from the department, and part is coming from new money that the Treasury has made available. In making this change in these regulations, are we ensuring overall that the poorest and most vulnerable are being supported while helping to lift large numbers of our people out of poverty? That is the fundamental question against which you set these regulations. If the answer to that is yes, then, clearly in the context of that whole regime, you have to move forward upon that basis.
There are some problems and concerns, and some of them have been raised already. I echo some of them and pose a new one in questions that I hope the Minister will answer at the end. First, we have this interim period between the universal benefit Bill passing through your Lordships’ House and its becoming an Act in our country. In that interim period, the current interest-free loans will no longer be available. There is a danger that the people who find themselves put in most difficulty by these regulations will turn to high-cost lenders. What comfort at all can the Minister offer for where these people might turn in that interim period so there will be no difficulties for them? It is a short, one-off period before the new loan arrangements for purchasing, say, a cart, buggy and all those matters are in place.
Secondly, as has already been alluded to, what happens when a second child is born in a family and there has been no claim for the first child? You can imagine the circumstances where that might happen. Someone who is in work, has appropriate leave and reasonable funding behind them, might decide that it is not worth the effort, hassle or for other reasons—it might be that parents provide some of this equipment—and do not apply for the grant. Then perhaps there is a period of no work and when it comes to the second child it is difficult to find that sort of money. What happens when this is the first application within the family but the application is for the second child? Again, I would value an answer from the Minister.
Lord Touhig
I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in what has been a very good short debate. I especially thank my noble friends Lady Massey, Lady Gale, Lord Liddle and Lady Hughes for their important contributions. I am very sorry that we were unable to convince the noble Lord, Lord Blackwell. I do not think that £4 billion of cuts in child support, hitting the poorest in our community, is defensible. The noble Lord, Lord German, might have taken issue with my use of the Welsh word “dwp”, but then of course he is not a man from the Gwent valleys. He seemed a little uncomfortable defending Tory cuts. I have only one word to say to him and his colleagues on the Liberal Benches, and that word is “Barnsley”.
The Minister was right to offer an apology at the start, because there has been a failure in proper communication and consultation on this measure. However, I think that the most disadvantaged in our society need to know that some people are on their side. The great socialist, James Maxton, said that poverty is man-made and is therefore open to change. I think that one way to demonstrate that it is open to change is by testing the opinion of the House tonight.
Poverty
Lord Touhig Excerpts(13 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Touhig
My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow my noble friend Lord McFall. I welcome him to your Lordships’ House and congratulate him on his maiden speech. I extend my congratulations to my noble friends Lord Boateng and Lady Donaghy, and to the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, on their excellent contributions today. My noble friend Lord McFall and I have known each other for 20 years, and in that time I have come to hold him in very high regard indeed. We have seen from his contribution to this debate why he was such a successful chairman of the Treasury Select Committee in the other place. With great skill he held the Government to account while at the same time preserving the unity of his committee. He was relentless in conducting his inquiries into the banking crisis, and many a banker did not look forward to appearing before him when he sought to hold them to account, exposing their greed and ineptitude which brought the world economy to the brink of collapse. My noble friend served in the Whips’ Office for some time, and in the Northern Ireland Office. Many in the Province will remember him for his compassion and his cool head on the day of the Omagh bombing, when he was the only Minister in Northern Ireland.
Yet my noble friend has one shortcoming, and I hope he will forgive me for revealing it. It is that he and good timekeeping are not close companions; indeed, some would say they are total strangers. His extraordinary work rate, running from one engagement to another, is the reason for it. I well remember a few years ago arranging to meet him and other friends for dinner. We all arrived at the appointed restaurant at the appointed time and waited and waited and waited for my noble friend. Eventually, after half an hour of putting off an eager waiter who wanted to take our order, we surrendered our table to other diners who were very hungry indeed. My noble friend did not arrive for a further half an hour and we had to queue to get our table back. I regret to say that I am not sure that his timekeeping has greatly improved, but I have no doubt that we will welcome his further contributions in this House. As our debates are carefully timetabled, I am sure that that will do much to improve his timekeeping.
The two poorest and most disadvantaged groups in our society are at the extreme end of the age spectrum: children and pensioners. During the past 12 years, a Labour Government did much to redress this with the record increase in child benefit, family tax credits and the child trust fund, all aimed at helping families with young children. We also saw the introduction of pension credits, free bus travel free television licences, all improving the quality of life of pensioners. But these significant advances may now be reversed by what Paul Krugman has called “ideologically fixed deficit hawks”. Only on Monday, we saw this Conservative/Liberal Democrat Government begin their assault on child trust funds. We know that they will freeze child benefit and, with massive cuts in public services predicted, every family with children and every pensioner needs to be concerned about the future.
The Conservative/Liberal Democrat Budget of a few weeks ago heralds a major attack on public services which support the most disadvantaged in Britain—public services that we have built up over years and make us a civilised society. What this Government have forgotten is that public service is labour intensive. We cannot sack police officers and put CCTV cameras on every street corner and call it policing; we cannot sack teachers and sit every child in front of a computer screen and call it teaching; and we cannot sack social workers, give every pensioner a microwave and call it home care. I have no doubt that we on these Labour Benches will need to be vigilant in these coming months if we are to defend public services on which so many of our vulnerable citizens depend and which the two parties opposite seem determined to put to the sword.
I shall confine the rest of my remarks to the plight of disabled people in general and those with autism in particular. Research conducted by Leonard Cheshire Disability found that 30 per cent of disabled people live below the poverty line. That is one in three and a terrible indictment of Britain in the 21st century. The National Autistic Society says that the lack of support that people with autism receive means that they and their families experience extreme financial difficulties. Some people with autism are able to live independent and fulfilling lives with very little support, but we all know that others will need support throughout their lives. The vast majority of people with autism want to work, and we need to do more to help them to do that. But as a dear friend of mine, a now retired GP, Dr Dipak Ray, said to me only last week: “Suddenly, creating jobs is out; inflicting pain is in”. That seems to be the message that we have had from this Budget.
Only 15 per cent of adults with autism are in full employment. Some 66 per cent of adults with autism are not in any kind of employment. Almost 80 per cent of those are on incapacity benefit. Six out of 10 adults with autism survive only with family and parental financial support. Caring for a child with autism is a full-time job. According to the National Autistic Society, 68 per cent of carers it surveyed said that their caring responsibilities exceeded 70 hours a week. The same survey revealed that only 41 per cent of carers had jobs, while almost 70 per cent gave up work to carry out their caring responsibilities.
More than half of families with disabled children borrowed money from family and friends to pay for essentials. According to a recent Contact a Family survey, one in four families is going without heating in their homes, one in seven is going without food and nine out of 10 said that financial worries are having a severe impact on family life.
I believe that noble Lords on all sides of the House will find these circumstances unacceptable and will want to challenge any Government who plan to introduce cuts in public services for the disabled. Disabled people, especially those with autism and their families, will be forced into greater poverty and financial dependence on family and friends if we do not take steps to protect them.
The Prime Minister said recently that the third sector was really the first sector. He was right in that we esteem that sector, but I hope that his remarks were not code for plans to offload the responsibilities of the state on the voluntary sector. The voluntary sector in Britain makes a huge contribution to the quality of life of millions of our citizens. Many voluntary groups are hard pressed. With massive public spending cuts in the offing, this will cascade into the voluntary sector.
The government programme states that the main burden of the deficit reduction will be borne by reduced spending rather than increased taxes. It also states that people needing care deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. I hope that the Government recognise that, without funding for services for the disabled, there can be no respect and certainly no dignity.