Lord Sassoon
“Calculation of working tax credit
(1) Step 5 in regulation 7(3) of the 2002 Regulations has effect in relation to awards of working tax credit for the whole or part of the relevant year as if from the beginning of the day on 6 April 2011 the percentage to be applied under step 5 in finding the amount of the reduction were 41% (instead of 39%).
(2) Anything done by the Commissioners before the coming into force of this section in relation to awards of working tax credit for the whole or part of the relevant year is to be treated as having been duly done, if it would have been duly done but for being done on the basis that from the beginning of the day on 6 April 2011 the percentage to be applied under step 5 was 41%.
(3) In this section—
“the 2002 Regulations” means the Tax Credits (Income Thresholds and Determination of Rates) Regulations 2002 (S.I. 2002/2008);
“the Commissioners” means the Commissioners for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs;
“the relevant year” means the year beginning with 6 April 2011.”
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, the purpose of the government amendments in this group is to correct an omission in secondary legislation which was made to implement changes to the working tax credit withdrawal rate announced as part of the June 2010 Budget. I apologise for the fact that these amendments are required.
Any award of working tax credit or child tax credit is reduced or withdrawn by a prescribed rate for every pound of income that a claimant has above a specified threshold. One of the changes announced in my right honourable friend the Chancellor’s June 2010 Budget in relation to tax credits was to amend the withdrawal rate for both child tax credit and working tax credit. The intention for the tax year 2011-12 was that the withdrawal rate would be set at 41 per cent, so that for every pound of income above the threshold, the amount of tax credits payable would be reduced by 41p. HMRC accordingly amended the tax credits IT system and since 6 April 2011 has implemented the increase in the withdrawal rates for both working tax credits and child tax credits and thus has applied a withdrawal rate of 41 per cent in relation to both tax credits for 2011-12 awards. Although the secondary legislation was amended correctly for the child tax credit withdrawal rate, unfortunately the working tax credit withdrawal rate was not. This new clause will correct the technical omission and will ensure that the withdrawal rate for working tax credit from 6 April 2011 is 41 per cent and not 39 per cent.
Let me be very clear for the record. HMRC is paying claimants the right amount of money as announced in the June 2010 Budget. It is applying the 41 per withdrawal rate and has been since 6 April 2011. In practical terms, the implementation of this correction will not impact tax credit claimants as it simply aligns the legislation with the announced and currently effective practice. I beg to move.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
Does that mean that as a result we have been paying people less than they were entitled to by law and are retrospectively correcting that?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, claimants are being paid what they expected to be paid based on the announcement made by my right honourable friend the Chancellor in the June 2010 Budget. If the legislation goes uncorrected, HMRC will be paying at a rate that is not covered by the law, so it is necessary to amend the legislation to bring into alignment the law and what claimants expected to receive and are receiving.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
So I think the answer to my question is yes. In other words, between April and December, HMRC has been withdrawing money at a taper that was not legitimised by legislation?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, there are a lot of things where HMRC starts in practice, and the law, whether primary or secondary legislation, comes afterwards. If the law does not come in, adjustments will subsequently have to be made. The result of doing this now is that there will be no adjustments and people will have been paid what it was intended they be paid.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, I will not say that the noble Lord is wriggling—I am looking for a more courteous word—but it is something like that. He keeps saying, “If we didn’t do this, it would get worse”. That is quite right. However, will he not confirm that between April and December he has withdrawn money at a rate not approved, legitimised, permitted or allowed by legislation?
Lord Sassoon
As the law stands, HMRC is giving people less money than the law says that it should.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, perhaps the Minister could answer another question. It might be a bit pedantic, but in a litigious world things can happen. Can he assure us that the Government are not liable to be sued in the courts for behaving outwith the law?
Lord Sassoon
I do not believe that there is any question of the Government being sued. The matter is clearly regrettable. The error was not spotted by anybody either inside or outside HMRC until August, when a technician in HMRC spotted it. It was not spotted by any of the numerous parties who no doubt crawled over this technical area, and it is now being corrected at the earliest practical time. Therefore, there is no question of the Government being sued by anybody—but it is important that we correct the technical error.
Lord Wigley
I thank the Minister for that answer, but I will pursue one point. He made the point that nobody spotted this—including, by implication, opposition Members. Nevertheless, it is not opposition Members who are running HMRC. Has any disciplinary action been implemented over this mistake?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, if the technician who spotted it was not part of the original drafting, he or she is to be congratulated. I was not making a point about the Opposition; I was merely pointing out that this is a highly technical area that escaped everybody's notice for a considerable amount of time. What is going on now is that HMRC has introduced new procedures to make sure that the checking process that it will go through for these things in future will mean that there will be a significantly reduced chance of anything like this slipping through again.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that people who had an entitlement under the law as it stood will be paid fully in accordance with the law as it stood, and that there is no question of a clawback coming through retrospective legislation?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
It is worse than that. Money has been taken from people. The thrust of the noble Lord’s argument suggests that it should be repaid until it has been appropriately legitimised.
Lord Sassoon
It is certainly the case that if the law were not brought into line with what the Chancellor intended, at some point HMRC would have to make adjustments to the incorrect clawbacks that were calculated. We can discuss this for as long as we want. The fact is that there was a clear policy announcement. It should have gone through in the original statutory instrument—I think it was 2011/1035—and a claimant can at any stage ask for an appeal and ask to have their payments recalculated. However, clearly it would be pointless to do so if they expect that the amendment we are now debating will be agreed and will get the position back to where it ought to have been all along.
Lord Touhig
My Lords, I am not clear on this. Are the Government saying that people who had money taken from them that should not have been taken are not going to have it given back to them? The Government have acted outside the law. People have been disadvantaged. Is it the Government’s intention to give back to these people the money that they were entitled to, as the law specifies?
Lord Sassoon
The technical position is that what is paid during the year is only an interim award. Of course, HMRC seeks to pay all entitlements on a correct basis. However, the final calculation is done at the end of the tax year. Therefore, at the moment HMRC is quite properly paying what it believes will be the position once we get the legislation lined up with the original policy intention.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, if the tax system changes half way through the year, we do not say that it is retrospectively applied to the previous six months and rely on an end-of-year adjustment, which is what the noble Lord seems to be doing. He has illegally underpaid people for something like nine months. The fact that tax credits are done at the end of the year and as an adjustment is neither here nor there. For that period he has illegally underpaid and he cannot retrospectively go back and claim money from them which he was not entitled to do.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, as I understand it that is not the position. The position for all taxpayers and claimants has to be finally calculated at the end of the year—and in many circumstances it can be done only then—because all sorts of circumstances may have changed. The issue is to get the legislation right in respect of this tax year. HMRC has calculated everything to date on the basis that there will be no further adjustments required at the end of the tax year once we get the legislation back into alignment with what was originally intended.
I appreciate the intention of noble Lords opposite to make hay out of this. It was a technical error in a statutory instrument that should not have happened. The amendment we are considering today is not to change anything midway through the year but to change the law with effect from 6 April 2011. There is going to be no unfairness and everything will be in line with exactly what my right honourable friend the Chancellor announced in the first place.
Lord Touhig
Make hay, my Lords? Some of the poorest people in this country have been denied the support they are entitled to. Is it true at 3.40 on a Monday afternoon we have a government Minister coming to Parliament and saying they are going to be denied the money that Parliament says they should have? Is that the case? Let us have a straight yes or no. Will these people get the money the law says they should have if we agree this amendment today?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, nobody is being misled because the Chancellor of the Exchequer made the position extremely clear in his original Budget Statement. People have had their calculations made on the basis of the Statement by the Chancellor. What we are doing today is part of the process of getting the law into alignment with that to make absolutely sure that people are paid precisely what was announced in the June 2010 Budget.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I was going to start by welcoming the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, to our Committee deliberations, which I now do a little belatedly. It seems to me that the proposition we are hearing today is that you collect the tax you want and then you align the legislation with it in due course. Does the Minister differentiate in his analysis between those who still have a claim that is continuing and those whose claim might have ceased during the course of the year for one reason or another?
I want to ask one or two further questions. In terms of the increase in the tax credit withdrawal rate, has any assessment been made of the impact of that on work incentives? Can the Minister also say something about the distributional impact of that reduction? It may seem just a small adjustment from 39 per cent to 41 per cent but the Red Book for the period shows that the impact in the first year would be £645 million increasing to more than £700 million throughout the rest of the CSR period. These are not small sums of money we are dealing with here in this rather retrospective manner.
In terms of the impact of those sums, the budget line sits on the same page as an item we are just about to discuss in relation to the disability living allowance. On the same line are the savings the Government are planning to make to a reform of the gateway which is something like double the savings they are making from these changes to the tax credits. Can the Minister perhaps just say something about that juxtaposition and the relative position of the two adjustments?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
He is of course speaking for the whole Government.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I always speak for the whole Government, of course. The first point is to re-emphasise that we are talking about an adjustment that will apply, as was always intended, from the beginning of this tax year—6 April 2011—so the issues of what happens to people whose circumstances change during the middle of the year are not relevant. The policy was announced as taking effect for the tax year 2011-12, which is precisely what the amendments are intended to achieve.
There is nothing magic about the amount of money and the juxtaposition. I know that June 2010 seems a while ago now but this was the emergency Budget in which we needed to do a number of things, not least set out a very clear plan to deal with the inherited deficit.
Lord Sassoon
It is important that we are reminded of that. This change to the withdrawal rate was one of a significant number of changes that the Treasury and my right honourable friend the Chancellor had to make to start to get the books back into balance—the start of a five-year process to get us back into balance. That is where the change comes from, and it is part of a wider reform thrust, which is the subject of a lot of the wider debate in this Committee. It was part of the overall approach to dealing with the deficit in a fair and targeted way. The noble Lord asks about the distributional impact. Of course, with the June 2010 Budget it was the first time that the Government put into the documents a complete distributional impact of the tax changes. It would be wrong to pick out the distributional impact of an individual measure like this. For the first time the Budget document gave the overall distributional impact, of which this withdrawal is just one element. It should be considered alongside other changes in personal allowance, which will boost work incentives. Again, it would be wrong to take this in isolation but it is important to remember that this was part of a complex construct.
Lord Boswell of Aynho
My Lords, will my noble friend reflect, in conjunction with our noble friend his colleague, that in a sense—I have enjoyed watching the passing scene on this matter—he has been rescued by the fact that the concept of income tax is a tax from year to year and has a defined period in which adjustments can be made? But I understand that under the universal credit, the payment period will be somewhat different and the ability to use that kind of argument, if there were a miscalculation of the taper rate in the future, would not be available? That is perhaps the moral that Ministers and officials will need to take into account in avoiding any slip-ups in the future.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Before the Minister responds to that, perhaps I may add to the list of questions. A moment ago he said that these were fair and targeted proposals, but can he expand on that proposition for us? The increase in the taper rate that affects some people runs to the tune of £780 million and the disability living allowance changes to the gateway amount to a withdrawal amounts to £1.4 billion from disabled people. How does he deal with that juxtaposition? How does he evaluate it? What is the basis for saying that those are fair and targeted? The Minister said it is always right to remind us about the inherited deficit. Perhaps I could say that it is always right to remind Members opposite that a financial crisis has hit every economy around the world—certainly all the major economies; when the last Government left office, the economy was growing and unemployment was going down.
Lord Sassoon
Perhaps it is worth saying that in future HM Treasury will be making a prospective provision for subsequent years by making new uprating regulations in time for the tax year 2012-13. So, just to be clear, this subsection will operate from the day it comes into force, but relates to this year; something different will happen next year. We will have the regulations in good time. I do not want to prolong things by discussing accidents that might have happened under the previous Government. I am sure there is a long list of things that went wrong; we know that there are significant things that have gone wrong in the administration of tax over the years. As for the distributional point, the critical thing is that with the entire package of tax decisions we took last year— and again it was repeated in the Budget document this year—we look at the effects of the measures quintile by quintile. The critical test here is that we have made sure that when all the measures and decisions taken by this Government are taken together, those who can afford to pay most pay most. So again—
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Does the Minister reject the IFS analysis that the tax and benefit changes that this Government have introduced will lead to an increase in both absolute poverty and relative poverty—both in children and in adults?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I think we are going much further than this individual measure. This measure is part of a much wider construct, which is not the subject of the amendment today. The amendment today is merely to get the position in line with what the IFS, the OBR and all other commentators believe to be the position
Without prolonging the point about the IFS, the IFS absolutely confirms the point I was just making: it is the richest in our society who will be paying the most as a result of the measures that we have taken, both in the budgets and in the spending review.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I think we have pressed the Minister enough on this. We ought to let him go, but I do wish that he will return for some further deliberations before we finish this Committee stage.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)
My Lords, the noble Baroness is seeking to replace the name “personal independence payment” with “disability living costs allowance”. We have also had my noble friend’s suggestion that we replace it with “personal disability costs payment”. I am very grateful for all the contributions on this genuinely important issue. Before dealing with the noble Baroness’s amendment, I should like to take the opportunity to talk about why we are reforming the disability living allowance and the Government’s policy intentions that underpin the personal independence payment. We believe that now is the right time to replace DLA by creating an affordable and sustainable system to support those disabled people who experience the greatest barriers to living full, active and independent lives. DLA has failed to keep pace with the changing approach to disability in society. It lacks consistency in the way it supports disabled people with similar needs, and we know from feedback received from claimants and their representatives that the application process is unduly complex.
Personal independence payment will be different from its predecessor. It will be a more dynamic, objectively assessed and transparent benefit based upon people’s daily living and/or mobility needs. It will consider the impact an individual’s impairment or health condition has on their daily life. It will take account of changes in individual circumstances and in the impact of underlying disabilities. It will reflect the wider changes in society that have taken place since 1992, when DLA was introduced, such as social attitudes, advances in aids and adaptations, and equality legislation. We will prioritise support on those individuals who face the greatest day-to-day challenges and who are therefore likely to experience higher costs.
The changes we are making through the introduction of personal independence payment will ensure that the benefit remains sustainable for the future. Currently, 3.2 million people receive DLA. This is an increase of around 30 per cent in the past eight years and it is important to note that for the DLA caseload overall only around one-third of that 30 per cent growth can be attributed to demographic factors. Personal independence payment will not be linked to an individual’s impairment, but will instead focus on the ability of an individual to carry out a range of activities necessary for everyday life and the extra costs arising because of their impairment. It will be payable to people who are in work as well as to those who are out of work.
I turn to the noble Baroness’s amendment, the name “personal independence payment” is intended to communicate the purpose of a benefit that continues to make a contribution to the extra costs that some disabled people face to help them to lead full, active and independent lives. I can reassure the noble Baroness that we have not yet incurred artwork costs for personal independence payment, nor, I need to confess, did we invest heavily in private sector consultants to come up with options for the change of name. I guess one can be excoriated and congratulated on both those facts.
Before announcing our plans for personal independence payment, we conducted a series of focus group sessions in which we were able to discuss the name of the new benefit. People felt that the word “disability”, although broadly understood and accepted as an umbrella term, was generally seen as relating to physical disability and was a more difficult term for mental health conditions. As noble Lords know, one of the big changes in personal independence payment is the swing in favour of people with mental health conditions. “Living” was felt simply to imply existing or surviving, and ‘allowance’ was deemed to be old-fashioned and paternalistic, as my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale suggested. It was because of these negative connotations that we decided, as part of the reform of DLA, to rename the benefit. Clearly, people will continue to have mixed views on the name “personal independence payment”, but it has found favour in many quarters. Through the DLA reform consultation, we received some positive comments on the new name for the benefit. I will quote one correspondent—if I do not, I suspect that no one else in the Committee will—who stated:
“I love the new name”,
and added that it seemed,
“more dignified than being given an ‘allowance’ for being disabled”.
We have always been clear that we will have greater regard for the social model when reforming DLA. The name “personal independence payment” reflects that intent rather than focusing on medical model terminology.
It is clear that noble Lords have differing views on the name of the benefit. I emphasise that our view is that “personal independence payment” reflects the principles and intention of the benefit. However, having heard the debate today, I am happy to take back noble Lords’ views, which were put very powerfully, to the Minister for Disabled People. I will ask her to consider how we might seek further feedback from disabled people on the proposed name. On that basis, I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
In responding to the debate, on a couple of occasions the Minister used the formulation “greatest barriers”, which carried the implication that people who face lesser barriers will fall outside the help of the new benefit. Could he be more specific about who is likely to fall into that category?
Lord Freud
My Lords, as the noble Lord knows, we have published the criteria and weightings but have not yet gone into any further definition of how the system might work in terms of thresholds. I will aim to bring some more definition around that by Report.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
Could the noble Lord bring back not just definitions but examples? He talked about a “dynamic” version. I do not understand that, except that “dynamic” is a sexy word. Perhaps he could describe how the situation of somebody who is currently on middle-rate DLA would change under PIP.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin
My Lords, I listened very carefully to the debate. Will the noble Lord respond to what I thought was the very important point about sending out a message? Many noble Lords talked about the name sending out a message, and the fact that the change should be understood in the right way. Disabled people are very fearful about the changes that are taking place. There is concern that removing the word “disability” from the title of the benefit might make it more comfortable for the Government for whatever reasons to abolish it in the future. That sentiment has been voiced in this debate. Will the Minister come back on the point?
Lord Freud
My Lords, the point is wrong in the following sense. What we are trying to do with funds that are inevitably limited is to make sure that we focus them on areas of real need and on where they should be focused. That is something that most people would agree with and it is the intention of the benefit. It is meant to be a more efficient way of getting money to the right people. So I do not agree at all with that concern. Some people express concern at the words we have used. As I have sought to describe, we have tried to get feedback and customer insight, and we have tried to get rid of some of the old medical stereotypes to move towards the social model. That is what we are trying to do with the name that we have suggested.
Baroness Wilkins
To follow up on that, perhaps I may press the Minister on press reports. Is his department, or are Ministers, ready to undertake some counteracting of what is going on in the press? On a previous day in Committee, he said that we do not control the press. Of course, the department does not control the press but there is a strong suspicion that stories such as the one that appeared last Friday in the Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph with the same words may have been leaked from the department to the right-wing press. If Ministers cannot control the press, it would ease the fears of disabled people immensely if they could come up with some very positive comments for the radio and television media where they have some control to counteract the appalling image that is being put across about disabled people.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I am very sympathetic to that point. The trouble is that when I and my colleagues—and, I am sure, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and the opposite side of the Chamber when it was in power—try to make positive stories, it is terribly hard to get any coverage at all. That is the trouble. The press is very hard to use in this way. I could use some emollient language here. I am genuinely concerned at the difficulties that we have as a department in getting a balanced view. Journalists tend to write unbalanced stories. I am conscious of and very concerned about that. I take it and I will try to get some counterspin, if you like, working. I think you are absolutely right that we are in danger of seeing the position of disabled people undermined by the media coverage and it behoves us to try to get that rebalanced. I accept the commission, if that is what it is, and will try to do something about it.
The Countess of Mar
Perhaps the Minister can put out some publicity about the very few people who claim this benefit fraudulently—it is less than 1 per cent, I believe.
Lord Freud
My Lords, the real trouble with the benefit is that it has been so loosely applied that it is impossible to take it fraudulently. I exaggerate slightly to make the point but that is the reason. The last time it was looked at in detail—I think it was 2004-05; I am plucking figures slightly from memory—I think there were overpayments of around £630 million and underpayments of around £250 million or £270 million. I am ahead of my team. It was around that figure. It was not because people were being fraudulent, it was just because it was no longer the right rate and you could not tell whether it had not been the right rate the day before or the day after. Fraud is not the issue with the DLA. The issue is the looseness of its application.
The Countess of Mar
The press go to town on people who are living in nice bungalows in Spain on their DLA. Yet, the very fact that it is loose is not the fault of the people who have been claiming the benefit but those who are administering it.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I cannot agree more. It has not been properly delivered. It has not been a proper gateway. It needs a new benefit and that is what we are trying to introduce.
Let me just get those figures correctly for you— it is £600 million overpayment and £190 million underpayment. I, like the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, am as concerned about the underpayment as the overpayment.
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton
My Lords, I thank the Minister and all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. In fact, I am quite overwhelmed—I did not expect such enthusiasm for this first amendment, although it is a very important one. I have to say again that this is not about a name; it is about intent. I believed, and I stand by it, the noble Lord, Lord Newton—who is now in this Room—when he said back in 1990 that the DLA was better assistance with the extra cost of being disabled. The DLA helps deliver that cost. I think it applied then and I am sorry it applies now. There is intent and it is important to get this name right.
I am so pleased that so many noble Lords have given their personal experiences and examples of the use of the DLA and that other noble Lords have talked about their experience of understanding the needs of other disabled people who may not be in this Room, such as people with hidden impairments and mental health conditions. Yes, we must reform the DLA so it meets the extra costs of all disabled people in this country not just those with physical impairments.
I do not know what focus groups the Minister was at when the name was discussed but it certainly was not with the disabled people that I have been talking to over the last couple of months. I do not want to boast, but I know rather a lot of disabled people. I have been working alongside disabled people for 30 years and I am tapped in to some of the biggest organisations for disabled people in this country which have a long history and authority in this area. So I trump the noble Lord when it comes to knowing what disabled people think about this amendment and its intent.
I am of course pleased that we might think of looking at the name again and I am thrilled that the Minister will be going back to the Minister for Disabled People in another place to discuss this. But I have to say that I rather like the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, of the “personal disability costs payment”. I am not crazy about the word “allowance” either, so I am happy to discard it and go with what disabled people feel comfortable with. Let us remember that it is what disabled people are most comfortable with that is most important. They have suffered from the most awful six months of media vitriol on disability allowance, and I know that for most of the people who use it, it is not about them. I feel really depressed when I open the Daily Mail in my mother’s house—I want to make that point—and I have to say that I feel a bit got at. But if I feel a bit depressed, think of what it is doing to hundreds of other disabled people.
I am glad that we have kicked off with a debate about the name because it has got all of us in the Room really focused on the issue, but having heard the debate, for now I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Newton of Braintree
I can understand that; that is where the noble Baroness is more up to date than I am. The Minister must be the most up to date of all.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I apologise that the information about the second draft criteria was not available earlier and I apologise for ruining a lot of weekends. What is the reason? We had a large volume of feedback to our informal consultation and we have made a significant amount of changes. It took some time—rather longer than we hoped—to work through it all. It is crucial that we get this right. One of the reasons—as noble Lords have pointed out already—is that there is a lot of sensitivity around this. If we put things out that are not right, we will create concerns where we should not. Misleading impressions here are very dangerous.
As I said, we aim to have the thresholds available for the Report stage of our consideration of this—not before the whole of the Report stage, but in good time for when we reach these matters at Report.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords—if the noble Lord will allow me to intervene again—I am sorry, but that really will not do. Too much depends on how you align the two rates of disability allowance; the passporting of carer’s allowance will depend on it; and, in turn whole issues such as couple conditionality, in-work payments and the like will depend on that. We cannot deal with earlier sections of the Bill if we do not know what the implications of this are. It will not do to leave this until Report. We have to have it before we start the Report stage.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I regret to say that I am not in a position to say that we will have the implications for carers ready for Report as well as the threshold information, which is another roll-on. We will be discussing the carer’s element in a later amendment, so I shall deal with that more fully then. I am looking at the timings of the information that I have. There is a large amount of co-production going on in the development of PIP, where we are talking to disabled people and disabled groups. That is what is taking the time to get to where we need to get to.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
This is obviously more a matter for the usual channels. Having just asked that discussions should happen with representatives of disabled people, the other way of meeting the major problem is by delaying Report and not starting it before Christmas. There are two reasons for that. The first is that we do not have the information and the second is the difficulty of trying to get disabled groups to give us the feedback that we need over Christmas when many offices close down. We will not be as informed as I know the Minister would want us to be. The possibility is that we should not start Report. I know that this is well beyond the Minister’s decision, but there are two ways of cracking it.
Lord Freud
My Lords, the proposition is that we need to have this locked down ahead of the rest of the Bill. Regrettably, we are not expecting to have the passporting elements of this ready for the time we consider it. I will go into some detail. The timing issue is that there would be no gain, if that is the real concern, in pulling this information earlier and hurrying the consideration process artificially.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I think that it would be very helpful if immediately following today’s sitting we have an update on what is and is not going to be ready because there are serious issues about consideration. Rather than prolong the process today, if the Minister would undertake to do that, it would be helpful.
Lord Freud
Perhaps I could undertake to do that ahead of Wednesday’s sitting and go through what we are expecting to have when.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
If the Minister were able to say, for example, that carer’s allowance will be attached to both rates, whatever they may turn out to be in terms of eligibility, some of our concerns would be removed. If he cannot say even that, I think half of Chapter 1, nearly all of Chapter 2 and quite a fair amount of Chapter 3 are affected by the passporting decision for carers.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I will give a full report on Wednesday, but I have already indicated where I am pretty sure we are. We are looking at passporting in a much wider way. We are having the SSAC report in January with its recommendations. There will undoubtedly be a lot of work around that. It would indeed be foolish to look at one aspect of passporting without taking the whole of passporting together. As noble Lords know, this is a framework Bill. There will be plenty of time to consider all these elements as we go through the regulations when we will be doing things in the fullest possible way. I imagine noble Lords in this Room will be taking a very full interest in all these aspects. Let me leave it that I will come back with the timetable at our next sitting.
These amendments seek to broaden the scope of PIP—I do not know whether my noble friend’s formulation of the personal disability costs payment has found favour, but I will stick with PIP, like the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, for the purposes of this—by introducing an additional tier to the daily living component. When we consulted on the overall framework to personal independence payment, we stated our intention to move to a structure that has two components paid at two rates. We decided on this structure for three key reasons: to simplify the overall structure by reducing possible award outcomes from 11 to eight; to make it easier to understand and administer; and to ensure that it reflects the range of individual needs and provides appropriate levels of support.
We also made it clear that the overall design of personal independence payment is intended to ensure that the benefit is fairer, more transparent and focused on the individuals who are least able to live independently. It also provides an affordable and sustainable platform of provision for the future.
In responding to our consultations, most organisations said that they supported the move to broader definitions for both components as they were a better reflection of the real experience of disabled people’s daily lives. Our view, therefore, is that a daily living component paid at one of two rates will enable us to better reflect the impact of impairment on an individual’s ability to participate. I appreciate the concerns of the noble Baroness that people will receive lower levels or no support under our reforms and that her amendments are intended to prevent that. However, that fails to deal with one of our fundamental aims, which is to give more consideration to whom we prioritise for support.
The Government have been clear here. We intend to protect those who are most in need and will prioritise support for individuals whose impairment has most impact on their ability to participate. That aim, and the way in which we intend to deliver it through the new assessment criteria, may necessarily result in shifts in provision. Some people will receive more support under our proposals; some the same; and some less. This is not an exercise in simply making arbitrary cuts to existing provision; it is about refocusing benefit provision so that it reflects disability impairments and barriers to participation in the 21st century.
Lord Wigley
The Minister mentioned a shift in provision. Did he look at the responsibility falling on other people? I am thinking particularly of it falling on social service departments of local authorities.
Lord Freud
My Lords, clearly an enormous amount of work has been done on this within both government and consumer organisations. When we refine the criteria—which is the process that we are going through—we look at all those aspects to ensure that we focus the money on where it will have most effect in supporting people to live independent lives.
On the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, on how we will assess people, the version of criteria that we published on Friday looked at a range of key, everyday activities. The main question is to look at what support an individual needs. It is much more holistic than the test described by my noble friend Lord Newton of how to boil a kettle. Our testing results through the summer demonstrated that our approach is both reliable and valid. On the question raised on the cost of getting evidence from GPs, we are discussing PIP plans with the Department of Health but have not yet made any estimate of the specific costs of obtaining evidence from GPs. However, evidence gathering will be a critical part of PIP and we recognise that disabled people will want to present information from a wide range of sources, not just GPs. We will ensure that they are able to do this.
Let me pick up the point made by the noble Baroness on the 652,000 so-called losers. That assumes that all the people currently receiving the lowest rate of DLA care would receive nothing under the PIP. We have not yet completed the detailed assessment of the impact of our changes on the current DLA caseload, and will do that on Report. It is likely that we will see significant movement in the new benefit. I suspect that some people will receive more support because of the improved assessment; some will receive broadly the same; some will receive less; and some will leave benefit altogether. The most important thing is that these results should accurately reflect the level of need of the individuals concerned so that the money will go where it is most needed. From what we have seen so far, the draft assessment is working to achieve this.
In the proposed criteria we have demonstrated that we have not simply removed the lowest rate of DLA. The concepts of needing assistance and how individuals prepare food, as described by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, are very much part of the criteria. We are aiming to ensure that passports to provisions elsewhere, such as vehicle excise duty exemption and the blue badge scheme, continue. Where necessary, we are working with other government departments and the devolved Administrations to ensure that the new PIP arrangements match closely their arrangements to ensure continued support for disabled people. It is our intention that the personal independence payment will provide part of the gateway for receipt of carer’s allowance in the way that DLA currently does. I have dealt with the timing issue.
In conclusion, let me assure the noble Baroness that our proposals to move to a two-tier daily living component is not about reducing support or cutting costs. It is a principled move that will help us deliver a benefit that will focus on those least able to participate. It will do that in a way that will make it fairer, clearer for everyone to understand, simpler to administer, and affordable and sustainable into the future. The Government have spent a considerable time developing and consulting on the provisions that the noble Baroness wishes to amend. Our view is that they are the right way to progress our aims. I therefore cannot support the amendment and I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw it.
Baroness Hollins
My Lords, the second draft of the assessment regulations is very interesting but it does not help in the consideration of what we are talking about. It does not tell us the threshold, so we cannot assess how many points you would need in order to reach a level of having a limited ability to carry out daily living activities and so on. Will the Minister explain how we could use these to judge what he has just been talking about?
Lord Freud
My Lords, let me start with the numbers. Large numbers are being thrown around about what is meant to be a 20 per cent cut. In practice, it is a cut from a projection because the benefit was rising very steeply, so measures were taken to get it under control. The whole caseload in 2009-10 was running at £3.1 million and now £3.2 million. In 2015-16 our projection is for it to run at more or less £3.1 million—£3.059 million. In terms of money, this is cash money. We are looking at a figure of £11.5 billion rising to £13.7 billion in 2015-16—and that is cash, not real. That was the projection we inherited and it is from that that we are cutting £1.3 billion. So from £13.6 billion we will take £1.3 billion, which will leave £12.3 billion.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
I am very interested in this point and it is exactly what I want to press the Minister on. Earlier he said that this was irrespective of—net of, if you like—demographic changes. Is he still saying that that is true for these figures? Certainly, all my assumptions based on his impact analysis and all the rest of it, and from what most of us know about this, are that people are getting their DLA and carrying it through into older age, and there is increased eligibility for attendance allowance by virtue of people living longer. So what one really wants to know is where he thinks the extra cost is coming from and whether, rather like pension costs, it reflects what is happening demographically and does not show any “looseness” in the financial gateways to the benefit.
Lord Freud
My Lords, as I said earlier, the history of this is that only 30 per cent of the gain that we have seen in recent years has been due to demographics. The rest has been the result of a drive in demand. I do not think that there was any assumption of a huge change in expectation in the projection. I am sure that once she has gone through Hansard, the noble Baroness will work it out.
I shall take the question on transitional protection put by my noble friend Lord Newton that I failed to answer. He had to ask it again, and I apologise for that. We do not have any plans to introduce such protection for people who currently receive DLA and may not be entitled to PIP. While I accept that they may have been entitled to it for some time, it would be strange to continue to pay a benefit to people who no longer met the entitlement criteria. So there is no difference between this and the similar 2004-05 exercise where 12 per cent of people were found no longer to be entitled.
I turn now to the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, on the difficulty of working out what the assessments we published on Friday mean. That was an exercise in showing the weightings and how the criteria might work to prioritise relative need. We know that there are strong views on these relative weightings. That is why we have published them: so that we can now discuss and fine-tune them to the extent that we need to. As I said, we will be able to move on this when we come to these clauses on Report, having done the exercise and worked out what it means in terms of entitlement thresholds.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
Will the Minister explain whether the department, having done that, will put everyone on a list depending on the number of points they have and then say, “Right, we have a fixed amount of money so we will adjust the levels accordingly”? Or will the divisions be based on a real assessment of people and will the Government then find the money come what may if people meet the thresholds?
The Minister did not answer my earlier question about the assumptions the DWP must already have made about the number of people who are likely to lose out. He said some will gain, some will stay the same and some will get less. After all the modelling that the department has done, there must be an assumption about this. It may need changing in the light of the thresholds, but it would be useful for it to be shared.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I will pick up the point of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. I have no figures on how many people may or may not lose, mainly because we have not yet locked down the thresholds. However, I assure her that this is a bottom-up exercise based on assessing people's real needs. We are working at it that way round rather than working to a budget. That is what some of the testing we did over the summer was about.
The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, asked about the work we have done on some passported benefits. We had detailed discussions with colleagues in the Department for Transport about passporting disabled people to the blue badge scheme. We will include key outcomes from the discussions in the updated impact assessment that we will publish in time for Report.
Baroness Grey-Thompson
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions this afternoon. I took over the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, and I am responding as such. I absolutely understand the need to prioritise the money that is available, and the fact that choices have to be made. I understand that the Government want to support those most in need. I, too, want that. However, the people currently seen to be not in greatest need will become those in need because they will not be able to carry out the daily tasks that DLA enables them to do. We may be storing up trouble for later. I look forward to seeing the more detailed information that is required to understand what the new landscape may be; and I look forward to having many more weekends taken up with reading.
I agree wholeheartedly with the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, on the difficulty of assessments, and with those of the noble Lord, Lord Newton, on transition. The barriers are still significant to those who may not be considered so disabled in the wider context of disability.
I think of this in terms of sport—and specifically athletics, which I know well. If life as a disabled person is a race and the finish line is full integration into society where DLA is not required, disabled people are not at the start of the 100 metres but spread out at different points along the marathon course. Many disabled people are still in the warm-up area and a few were left on the bus. Of course, this should not stop our attempts to remove barriers, but we should be very careful about the choices that we make. I have concerns that we are simply pushing this issue into other areas and I look forward to continuing the discussion with the Minister, especially around the projection figures of the Department for Work and Pensions, of which I take a slightly different view. I will come back to this at a later stage. At the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, these amendments are about encompassing the social model in the Bill. We support them. I have come to this issue somewhat later than some noble Lords here such as the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, my noble friend Lady Wilkins and others. I found the Scope document, which has been referred to, particularly helpful not only because it laid out a route to a different process of assessment, but because it took the assessment and criteria in the DWP’s document and tried to point out in practical terms why they may not have encompassed these wider issues. I say to the Minister, as others have said, that this should not be a difficulty for the Government because they have on the record their commitment to the social model. It is in Hansard for 30 November 2010. I think it was the Minister, Maria Miller. It is clearly on the record and not a matter of dispute.
Indeed, the DLA consultation paper referred to the social model in the following terms:
“The social model of disability says that disability is created by barriers in society. These barriers generally fall into three categories: the environment—including inaccessible buildings and services…people’s attitudes—stereotyping, discrimination and prejudice…organisations—inflexible policies, practices and procedures”.
Of course, the model argues that these barriers can be changed or removed. We accept that dealing with these barriers is not just a matter for a DLA or PIP or whatever it is called, but the consequences of these barriers need to be taken into account in assessing entitlement. I ask the Minister how the approach to PIP is reflected in the social model of disability and how the Government would counter criticisms that their approach is still driven by the medical model which concentrated on the inability to undertake activities due to a physical, mental or cognitive impairment.
Paragraph 4.9 on page 29 of the explanatory notes to the second draft of the assessment criteria says,
“Furthermore, we remain concerned that taking greater account of issues such as housing, access to transport, informal support and utilities would make the assessment more subjective and lead to inconsistent outcomes for individuals. Many of these issues will be dependent on local circumstances and availability of services, meaning that results might differ depending on location across the country”.
Of course we understand the difficulty that taking account of a wider range of factors would involve an expanded and different process. However, any process that involves a points-based approach will have a degree of subjectivity to it.
The Minister will be aware of proposals from Scope, which other noble Lords have mentioned, that recommend the trial of a more extensive process that has co-operation with the claimant at its heart. I will not run through the detail except perhaps to comment on the last bit of the process as it sees it, which is the production of a local support plan to capture the evidence and information brought up over the course of the assessment process in order to help highlight where in the individual’s life the barriers and the needs tend to arise. This could help the claimant to identify particular areas in which PIP might provide valuable support in meeting disability costs, but would not take the form of an outcome-based agreement binding the individual to use their PIP for specific purposes. Do the Government have any plans to test this approach, together with input from disability groups? We acknowledge that a good deal of work, thought and engagement has gone into updating the assessment criteria, and this has also been recognised by the Disability Benefits Consortium, but inevitably questions arise about the rules of engagement going forward, what further consultation will be taking place, and particularly about why the Government are confident that the current proposals will take account of the full range of barriers and costs that disabled people face. I think that that is a particular bone of contention that may have been eased by the current document, but that has certainly not been fully answered. That is why it is important to have these issues in the Bill.
Lord Freud
My Lords, the noble Baroness is seeking to ensure that the assessment for PIP reflects the social model of disability, which would mean that assessors would not just consider the impact of impairment on an individual, but also the social, practical and environmental barriers they face. On the question raised on the support we have, I should say that we have the Assessment Development Group whose role is to advise on the detail of the new criteria we are developing, so the group is necessarily technical in nature. However, the members of the group have a wide range of experience in working with and supporting disabled people, including two representatives of disabled people and disability organisations. Several of the group members are disabled people. The group includes individuals from a range of professions including occupational therapists, psychiatrists, physiotherapists, expert social workers and GPs. We also have representatives from RADAR and Equality 2025. We know it is important to hear wider views, which is why we have been talking to disability organisations throughout the development of the assessment and why we will continue to do so.
The amendment reflects a commonly held view that the assessment we are developing is a medical assessment. I am pleased to have this opportunity to state that that is not the case. The assessment is not fully based on the medical model, with the impairment or health condition that the individual has or its severity determining the entitlement. Indeed, the type of condition or impairment an individual has is of limited relevance as this assessment focuses on the activities essential to daily living and on outcomes. By looking at holistic activities and participation outcomes, this assessment will better reflect the social model of disability than did previous assessments. I do accept that it is not a full social model assessment; it is not intended to be. However, neither is it a medical model. The reality is that it is somewhere in between. It is perhaps more of a bio-psycho-social model. That is not a term that I have coined; it was coined by Professor Gordon Waddle whose work in the field of health and disability we have discussed in this House before. It recognises that there are biological, psychological and social factors to disability, which we have tried to capture in the assessment.