Health and Care Bill

Lord Sentamu Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 4th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I have been in this House for 22 years and I have been asking for this for at least 20 of them. It really is time that the Government got on with it. At the time, I was told that most wine comes from abroad and we cannot legislate for what is put on the labels, but it cannot be impossible to put information on the shelf labels or online. If people do not know what they are putting inside their bodies, they cannot moderate it.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I support this amendment. I will tell a true story of a teetotal preacher who harangued his congregation that nobody should be drinking because it is dangerous, damages our health and damages everything else. “Alcohol should be banned,” he said, “and the best thing to do is go and drown it in the river.” Unwittingly, he then said, “Our final hymn is ‘Shall We Gather at the River?’ The beautiful, the beautiful river.” He did not see the contradiction in what he said. This amendment is full of clarity, clarifying areas that need to be put fairly clearly. The obligation that it puts on the Secretary of State and, incidentally, all of us is very clear. Because of the real danger in what overdrinking does to a lot of people, I say: no, we shall not gather at that river, that beautiful, beautiful river.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble and right reverend Lord, who reminds us of our obligations to assist with alcohol-related ill health. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for putting these amendments before your Lordships’ House today. The first is a probing amendment about the need to report on the consultation on alcohol labelling. It is absolutely right to raise this: consumers have a right to know what is in their drinks, to make informed choices about what and how much they drink. Currently there are no legal requirements for alcohol products to include health warnings, drinking guidelines, calorie information or even ingredients. Research by the Alcohol Health Alliance found that over 70% of products did not include the low-risk drinking guidelines, and only 7% displayed full nutritional information including calories. I certainly add my voice to welcoming the forthcoming consultation on alcohol calorie labelling. When can we expect to see this, and what is the reason for the amount of time that it has taken to bring it forward?

Amendment 296 requires the Secretary of State to make a five-yearly statement on the cost efficacy of alcohol services. As we know, rigorous impact evaluation is absolutely key to good policy-making and improving the lives of those who use alcohol services. At present, the Government cannot say that they are meeting their responsibility to tackle alcohol harm with the requisite financial commitment and in the right places. Perhaps the Minister will tell your Lordships’ House what evaluation measures are already in place.

Of course, the background to all this is that, since 2012, there have been real-terms funding cuts to alcohol services of over £100 million. Pre pandemic, only one in five dependent drinkers was believed to be in treatment, leaving a shocking four out of five without help. The pandemic has only worsened the situation. I hope that the Minister will agree that there is a need to do better to ensure that we know how policies and services help or hinder the treatment of problem drinking, in order that efforts and resources can be targeted to where they work best.

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for her work as chair of the Commission on Alcohol Harm. I thank her for this opportunity to set out the current state of play on the Government’s alcohol policy. I am the first to acknowledge the seriousness of the harms caused by the consumption of alcohol, which she pointed out.

Effective alcohol labelling is an important part of the Government’s overall work on reducing alcohol harm. I am pleased to tell the noble Baroness that the legal powers available to the Government are already sufficient to enable us to consult and report on alcohol labelling. The kind of power proposed in her probing amendment is highly prescriptive, and, from a purely practical point of view, would not allow for sufficient flexibility in the consultation process, which could make the process less effective.

As she knows, as part of the Government’s Tackling Obesity strategy, published in July 2020, the Government committed to consult on whether mandatory calorie labelling should be introduced on all pre-packed alcohol as well as alcoholic drinks sold in the out-of-home sector. I repeat that commitment today, and, as part of our public consultation, we will also seek views on whether provision of the UK Chief Medical Officers’ Low Risk Drinking Guidelines, which includes a warning on drinking during pregnancy, should be mandatory or continue on a voluntary basis. The noble Baroness, Lady Merron, asked when we might expect that consultation to be forthcoming. I am afraid I can say no more than “in due course” at this stage, which I realise is not wholly enlightening, but it is as far as I can go at the moment.

Turning to Amendment 296, which proposes additional reporting and government statements, we do not think a new reporting requirement is necessary. The Office for Health Improvement and Disparities already publishes annual data on estimated numbers of alcohol-dependent adults within local authorities in England. Health commissioners can use this data to estimate local need and appropriately plan their alcohol treatment services. Outcomes for local authority-funded alcohol treatment services are already published at local and national level via the national drug treatment monitoring system. The Office for Health Improvement and Disparities also provides a number of data tools to enable local areas to compare their performance against other areas and nationally, including the public health outcomes framework, local alcohol profiles for England and the spend and outcomes tool.

On funding, local authorities are currently required to report on their spend on alcohol services annually to the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities. Through the “why invest?” online guidance, the Office for Health Improvement and Disparities already produces data and information on the return on investment for alcohol and drug treatment. The guidance includes cost savings data on treatment interventions in primary and secondary care and on specialist and young people’s treatment services. There is a strong programme under way to address alcohol-related health harms and their impact on life chances, and to reduce the associated inequalities which the noble Baroness emphasised, including an ambitious programme to establish specialist alcohol care teams in hospitals and to support children of alcohol-dependent parents.

Throughout the Covid-19 outbreak, drug and alcohol treatment providers continued to support and treat people misusing drugs and alcohol. OHID supports local authorities in this work by providing advice, guidance and data. OHID is developing comprehensive UK guidelines for the clinical management of harmful drinking and alcohol dependence. These aim to develop a clear consensus on good practice and to improve the quality of service provision. The work is expected to be completed later this year.

Finally, we are currently developing a new commissioning standard for drug and alcohol treatment which aims to increase the transparency and accountability of local authorities on how funding is spent. It will include requirements to commission services—

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

I am sorry to disturb the Minister in mid-flow. He described this amendment as prescriptive. Seat belts became prescriptive, and most people now wear their seatbelt. There was no question of an in-between. Smoking was another, and the effect has been to improve our public life. Without clarity—and we still will not have options—how will the Government achieve what wearing seatbelts and not smoking have achieved in terms of health? Alcohol needs to have similar treatment.

[Earl Howe (Con)]

The noble and right reverend Lord makes an extremely cogent set of points. I criticised Amendment 259 only on the grounds that it was overprescriptive. Surely, what we want in any consultation is a broad enough question to put to the public and those who have expertise in this area. If we make it too narrow—I said “overprescriptive” rather than “prescriptive”—we are in danger of introducing a lack of flexibility. That was my only point there.

I was just mentioning the development of a new commissioning standard. It will include requirements to commission services to meet a wide range of individual needs, and services will be monitored against these. I hope that information provides the noble Baroness and the Committee with a useful update on where we are with this important agenda and will enable her to feel reasonably comfortable in withdrawing her amendment.

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[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Well, I certainly was going to make my remarks brief, and I am sorry that I was detained for one minute. I just want to give my wholehearted support to these amendments. There is no more despicable trade than the trade in human organs and no more despicable practices than those that are going on in China at the moment, simultaneously with the opening of the shameful Games. I very much hope that my noble friend, who so politely interrupted me, will be able to give us a very supportive statement when he comes to wind up this debate.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I also stand to support Amendments 265 and 282. I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Hunt, Lord Ribeiro and Lord Alton, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Northover and Lady Finlay.

I declare an interest as, quite a number of years ago now, I was one of those who signed up to say that, at the moment of death, all my organs will be left to the National Health Service for any scientific work that may be required. I carry a card, but it says that my organs should be kept in this country and not exported anywhere else, because I have no trust that they would not be used for purposes for which they were not intended.

When I was doing philosophy in Cambridge, Professor Williams posed a question. He said “Surprising things happen—that they are no longer surprising. Comment.” Noble Lords who have done philosophy will know how complicated that question is.

In Uganda, Idi Amin was known for the people that he feared most. He would cut off their heads, put them in the fridge, and put their organs in another fridge. People did not believe this, and he was overthrown. His treating of the human body like something you simply dispose of was horrific. No wonder a lot of people died under that terrible Government of his when he was in power. What we are being asked is: should the standards in this country also be somehow given over to other countries so that they can learn? But we too have got to be very careful that our standards are as high as the tissue Act says.

We live in a world that is so perilous at times, and where some people may disappear and you never see them. In Uganda, quite a number of leading people disappeared and, up to today, we do not know where they went. The thing is, they would be put in drums of acid and their bodies would be dissolved. Surprising things happen—that they are no longer surprising. May we be so vigilant. These two amendments do the job, so I hope that the Minister when he responds will have heard the urgency in the speeches, but, most of all, in the amendments themselves.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, can I say how much I agree with my noble friend Lord Hunt, the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and the noble Lords, Lord Ribeiro and Lord Alton? They know I have been with them on this journey throughout. I probably would go a bit further than my noble friend Lord Hunt’s Amendment 265, because I believe that this country should follow the example of France and ban the exhibition of plasticised cadavers and human body parts.

In 2019, we had an OQ on this, which many noble Lords here today took part in. I said at that time that there is an

“ethical issue at play here”

and that it seemed that the businesses that had

“the exhibitions which use plasticised cadavers and foetuses for supposedly educational purposes could use modern materials and production to create the same exhibits. That begs the question: why use cadavers and human body parts at all? If the answer is that people want to see such things and will pay to do so, I remind noble Lords that people used to flock … to see public executions until 1868.”

It is an ethical issue. I am afraid that the noble Baroness answering that debate at the time said that

“the ethical position is not one for government.”—[Official Report, 27/2/21; cols. 228-29.]

Well, I would say that this debate shows that the ethical position is absolutely one for government.

Health and Care Bill

Lord Sentamu Excerpts

Lords Hansard _ Part 1 & Report stage
Wednesday 16th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hollins (CB)]

My Lords, I do not understand why it is a conscience vote if it is not about the substance or the subject but somehow about parliamentary process. That does not seem to me to be a matter of conscience.

The point is that people want better care at the end of their life. The amendment to this Bill from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, is a game-changer. I wonder how many noble Lords understand that something has changed during the passage of this Bill. For the very first time, people will now be eligible and able to have palliative and hospice care at the end of their lives commissioned by the NHS. It is the responsibility of all integrated care boards to commission proper, good palliative care so that the poor care and poor deaths that people in this House are afraid of will be a thing of the past.

This is the wrong time to talk about introducing lethal drugs as a last resort. We should be looking forward with optimism and hope about how things have changed. This is also relevant to my noble friend Lady Meacher’s Bill. Noble Lords have questioned the motives of Peers who have tried to amend that Bill. It needed to be amended and scrutinised. My amendments were all about palliative care—this was before the game-changer of universal palliative care—being available before people are offered the only option of lethal drugs. If lethal drugs are the answer, why was this not an amendment to introduce lethal drugs to enable people to be assisted in their own suicide? Palliative care will reduce the supposed demand for physician-assisted suicide.

I think the statistics have been misrepresented. Only 10 US states have legalised physician-assisted suicide, despite the supposed success in Oregon. Maybe they have recognised that palliative care decreases rather than increases when lethal drugs are available. Some 200 attempts to introduce physician-assisted suicide in the United States have been defeated.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I do not want to detain the House long. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, told us that this is not to open the debate in favour of or against assisted dying but, as the debate has gone on, there has been an opening up of that debate. We have to look very carefully at what was given to us by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, on the constitutional question. This amendment is not saying that the Government must find time to debate this matter but instructing the Secretary of State.

This is a revising Chamber. It is made up of unelected people telling the Government in the elected place that they must produce a Bill and it must be given time. That is my worry. My views on assisted dying are very clear. I will debate it whenever the issue comes back again, but the issue for me now is to avoid what was happening towards the end of Theresa May’s Government, when the Back-Benchers were trying to take control of government business. That led us into a mess.

I am not against speaking in favour of any Government of any colour, because I have never been a member of any party, but I want to observe how the liberalisation of homosexuality actually happened. Michael Ramsey, as Archbishop of Canterbury, began a debate in your Lordships’ House because of what had happened to Turing and many other people. He just thought: is it natural justice that consenting adults should actually be prosecuted and have to go through horrendous treatment, some of them facing horrendous stuff? The debate happened here and what was the result? It was the Wolfenden report. That recommended that this should be debated and a Minister of the Government, and Mr Jenkins on behalf of the Labour Party, joined in the debate and what happened? The law was passed. Where did it start? It started in the elected Chamber.

I have a real concern that we, as a revising Chamber, are not even considering a Bill that has actually come from the Government but instructing the Secretary of State to produce a Bill within a year of this coming into being and saying that it must be debated. Does this respect our position and why we are here? This is not revising legislation, at which all your Lordships do a fantastic job. Without your Lordships, the Bills in this country would be horrendous. However, let us not overreach ourselves and think that we can instruct the Secretary of State to bring this in. Who is the Secretary of State in this case? is it the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care?

May I please ask that we get another amendment or another Statement to give the House a Private Member’s Bill that needs to be given sufficient time to be debated properly? Also, other people told your Lordships that on 21 September 2015, there was full a debate in the other place.

[A noble Lord]

A long time ago.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

Noble Lords might say that it was a long time ago, but it was debated. It is not as if this has never been debated properly. It went through all the processes and unfortunately the Bill was lost. Is this another example of once something is lost, you bring it back again and again? I do not want to be like a particular German Chancellor who lost an election and said, “This is really wrong, we must change the people.” Friends, we are a revising Chamber. We need a bit of humility about our position, and should not think that we can instruct the Secretary of State to bring in a particular Bill because time has been lost.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)]

My Lords, I detect a sense that the House would like to hear from the Front Benches, but I know that all noble Lords have a right to speak and that the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, is very keen to say something. I am sure she will understand that the House wants to hear the Front Benches and that, if my noble friend wants to bring this to a vote, we should get on with it.

Health and Care Bill

Lord Sentamu Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Report stage
Wednesday 16th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, the House will want to move on quickly, so I will not make the speech that I intended to make on this issue, but I would very much like to endorse what the noble Baronesses, Lady Fraser and Lady Stowell, the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, and my noble friend said in their earlier speeches. I know Connie Yates and Chris Gard, who are the parents of Charlie Gard, who died in 2017 of mitochondrial DNA depletion syndrome. Indeed, I have entertained them here in the House, arranged meetings for them and travelled with them. I entirely agree with what my noble friend is trying to do. This will make mediation work; it will create a proper balance and equality of arms. No parents should have to face litigation in these often tragic and troubling circumstances, so this is a good amendment and I hope the Minister will feel he can accept it.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I was patron of Martin House in York, which is one of the amazing hospices that care for children and their parents. I was invited by the parents of a nine year-old, who was having a very difficult and trying time, to talk to clinicians, because they did not think that they were being heard. As we talked, it became clear that that was not true: the clinicians were on the side of the parents, but their language was not helpful. We had this amazing conversation, and as a result the needs of the child and the aspirations of both the parents and the clinicians matched, and we were able to get very careful care. What the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, is trying to do is recognise that in most cases parents have good desires, and clinicians probably know more than they are willing to say but hold back because of the sheer pain and difficulty that they see on the faces of everybody, and another voice can help in these situations.

--- Later in debate ---

Can the Minister tell the House of any contract that the Government have agreed that has had that result? Has this alternative, which the Government pray in aid, been deployed by them to such an effect that it has significantly bitten into the unbelievably unjustifiable inequity in the share of vaccines around the world?

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I was not going to speak, but I am driven to respond to what I have just heard. I first declare an interest as chair of Christian Aid, which works in some 29 countries, most of which have experienced what I call vaccine inequality. We constantly get letters urging us to try to help.

As far as the British Government are concerned, in relation to some of those countries, the money and the way that they have tried to help—which must be acknowledged—certainly with AstraZeneca, there has been a far greater equity coming out. When we had the Kent variant, the Government were very quick to share that information with everybody else. What I think the amendment is asking is that, when the World Health Organization declares a health emergency, if we have information we should make it available immediately.

Secondly, on the question of equity, we have just had a big Commonwealth service in Westminster Abbey and there are particular people—noble Lords may not believe it—who come from those 54 countries of the Commonwealth who still look to the United Kingdom as giving them not only language but the ability to understand the sheer pressure of inequality. I would have thought that this particular amendment would help us to answer some of our supporters out there in the global south by saying that we are very serious, given some of the help that has been provided—though it has not gone far enough; the antivirals and all those drugs have not been given equitably. I therefore ask the Minister to realise that the issue is not whether we have or have not done enough; it is that, if there is a global health emergency—locally and internationally—the Secretary of State is in a better position sometimes to speak and to help those who are struggling and finding it difficult.

Nkrumah said that Ghana would not be free until the rest of Africa was independent, and I believe the same is true now. I have had my double vaccine and my booster, but I am not fully vaccinated until the rest of the world is vaccinated.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Kamall) (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate for the passion they have shown. I think we are all concerned by vaccine inequity—as noble Lords have rightly said, we are getting our third or fourth vaccines while some people have not had their first yet—but we also have to be clear how we get to this stage. It is easy to say, “We spent this much money on public research and that led to the vaccines”, but it is not as simple as that. It may have led to the research but that does not lead to the production of millions of vaccines that can be distributed worldwide. There is a clear difference between pure research and turning that into actual vaccines and, once they are produced, getting them into people’s arms. You can certainly deliver them to countries but they do not always reach the arms. We have heard stories of vaccines being thrown away because of a lack of distribution in particular countries.

The sharing of knowledge has played and will continue to play an important role in the rapid scale-up of Covid vaccine production. The UK Government are very committed to addressing vaccine equity on every front. As the son of people who came from outside the EU—not white, privileged Europe—I believe very strongly in global Britain.

The experience of the pandemic has shown that it is voluntary collaboration that has made real, positive impacts on vaccine delivery. The scale-up of vaccine production at record pace has been driven by more than 300 voluntary partnerships. This unprecedented collaboration around the world has meant that global Covid vaccine production now stands at nearly 1.5 billion doses per month. Voluntary partnerships such as AstraZeneca and the Serum Institute of India, and Pfizer-BioNTech and Biovac in South Africa, show what is possible if you work together.

The intellectual property framework has been crucial in facilitating this knowledge sharing. Indeed, the legal certainty it produces cannot be overstated. It gives innovators the confidence to form partnerships and continue investing in the innovative health products and technologies that have contributed so positively to our global pandemic response. The intellectual property framework similarly supports the production and dissemination of vaccines and other products across the world.

Yes, 97% of the investment in research is public funding, but research is not vaccines. There needs to be a whole chain from that pure research to scaling up and distribution, and universities cannot do that. Waiving intellectual property rights would dismantle the very framework that has facilitated this collaboration. It would undermine not only the knowledge sharing that has helped to develop and produce Covid-19 vaccines at the pace and scale now seen but the framework needed to support the development of new vaccines and treatments, should these be needed in future.

It should also be noted that the least-developed countries are exempt from implementing the Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights—or TRIPS—Agreement, meaning that they already have a de facto TRIPS waiver. In addition, the TRIPS Agreement already provides flexibilities to enable countries to achieve their public health objectives, and we fully support the right of these countries to use these where needed—but you have to build the capacity. Low and middle-income countries can access medicines in times of emergency through flexibilities that allow them to manufacture or import without the consent of the patent holder.

For these reasons, the UK does not consider intellectual property rights a barrier to supplying and improving access to Covid-19 goods. The noble Lord, Lord Russell, can put another £10 in the Christmas bag. Instead, we shall continue to be a visible champion of those elements of the intellectual property framework that support effective knowledge sharing.

The noble Baroness will be aware that we have contributed vaccines through the COVAX scheme—a partnership of the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations, Gavi, the Vaccine Alliance, UNICEF and the World Health Organization—but we know that is not enough. As noble Lords have rightly said, we have to learn from what we have done during this pandemic. One part of my ministerial portfolio that I am very proud of is international relations and health diplomacy. A constant theme in my G20 and G7 Health Ministers’ meetings is how we tackle these vaccine inequities and learn the lessons that many noble Lords have rightly raised.

Last week, the British Government hosted the Global Pandemic Preparedness Summit to learn those lessons: to make sure that we brought together all our experiences as countries, learned from those and asked what we could do next time. I was very privileged to host a working lunch with several overseas Health Ministers, as well as Dr Richard Hatchett, CEO of CEPI; Dr Seth Berkley, the Gavi CEO; and Dr Tedros, the director-general of the World Health Organization, sitting next to me. One of the issues that came up in our discussions was, rather than developing and less-developed countries relying on donations via COVAX, how we ensure that, first, there is more local and regional manufacturing of vaccines through public-private partnerships and, secondly, that vaccines get into people’s arms as quickly as possible once they are manufactured or are imported into a country. We need to avoid those situations where vaccines were wasted because they were not stored or transported properly, or where there was difficulty distributing them once inside a country.

With international partners, we are looking at a whole range of issues and new technologies, such as new distribution methods. Some noble Lords may well have read about drones being used to deliver vaccines to certain remote areas. Before using these drones, it is all very well having all these vaccines in the capital, but how do you get them into people’s arms? We have to look at that area. Intellectual property rights are irrelevant here. The fact is that the vaccines are there but you have to get them into people’s arms. We have to train more vaccinators and we need better transport.

We agree that the vaccine supply must be matched by the capacity of health systems to deliver them, and we have been working to strengthen health systems around the world. Our recently launched health systems strengthening position paper sets out this Government’s determination to do more to build overall capacity, from policy through to delivery.

But there are other issues. Just as there are the vaccine-hesitant in this country, there are many vaccine-hesitant people in other countries. Our African vaccine confidence campaign is working with experts in countries such as Botswana, Ghana and Uganda to reinforce communities’ trust and build demand from the ground up. Once again, you can get the vaccines there but you have to get them into people’s arms. We have also been working to minimise constraints on supply chains, such as tariffs. This has been demonstrated by our sponsorship and promotion of the trade and health initiative as well as the unilateral measures we have taken, including tariff suspensions.

We have also provided support for the development of regional manufacturing capabilities. This includes technical support to develop business cases for the manufacture of vaccines in South Africa, Senegal and Morocco. We are working with the COVAX supply chain and manufacturing task force to champion other practical efforts to scale up capacity. We believe that we are doing lots of things with our global partners—with Gavi, CEPI and the World Health Organization.

To be honest, I am incredibly inspired by some of the work that I see going on. This is about building real capacity. It is about transferring knowledge and technology and making sure that we have that capacity. It is about making sure that we live up to global Britain, in which I firmly believe given my own family history—not from white Europe, but from a global perspective. I believe very strongly in that. I believe that waiving intellectual property rights will not help overcome these challenges. I may be passionate about this but I feel very strongly about it. I feel strongly about global Britain. I feel very strongly about my distant relatives who come from developed countries and about my own history, my own heritage. I feel much more strongly about this than noble Lords may well feel.

This is the right approach. I am hugely encouraged by this international co-operation and the potential of new technologies to help. I would be very happy to continue to engage with the noble Baroness. I think we probably share the same passion for making sure that this happens. Given that, I hope she will consider withdrawing her amendment.

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[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support Amendment 183. My background in this goes back to March 2020, in those difficult, scary, early days of the pandemic, when your Lordships’ House was operating on a skeleton crew. That led to me, as very new Peer, moving the amendment to the coronavirus regulations that would have allowed for telemedicine. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, who I note has signed this amendment, for supporting me through that process, because I had little idea about what I was doing in terms of your Lordships’ House. It is worth noting that we were doing that in part in acknowledgement that women would not otherwise have access to the necessary medical service of an abortion, but also because we knew that NHS resources were going to be enormously stretched. We are still in a situation where NHS resources are enormously stretched. Earlier we were talking about the Ukrainian refugees whom we will be welcoming here and the medical services that they will need.

Of course, we want to say that, in this area of medicine, we should be putting resources into all the NHS services that women need, but the evidence is overwhelming that telemedicine abortion is giving women a better service. I pick up the point made by the right reverend Prelate that there may be safeguarding concerns. There is evidence, particularly from MSI Reproductive Choices, reporting a major uplift in safeguarding disclosures, including from survivors of domestic and sexual abuse, with telemedicine.

On the medical side of this is a simple clear fact: since telemedicine has been introduced, complication rates from abortion have fallen by 20%. You do not have to listen to just me on this; permanent provision of abortion telemedicine is supported by eight royal colleges and medical societies, including the Royal College of General Practitioners, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, the Royal College of Midwives and the British Medical Association. I also point out that abortion telemedicine is going to continue in Wales and Scotland, based on the evidence. The arguments are simply overwhelming: this is the best option.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I was not going to speak on this, but I listened to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and that encouraged me to stand up and speak, together with other noble Lords who are a bit cautious about all of this. I was a vicar of an inner-city parish in which there were a lot of teenage pregnancies, and those who made them pregnant tried to force them to have abortions. The only person they felt they could tell was the vicar, not their parents, because their parents would hit the roof. Some of them would get corporal punishment as a result. I found myself in difficult, tricky situations, but I was fortunate, because in the congregation we had midwives and doctors. I simply said, “I listened to what you are saying to me, but I am not medically qualified to give any advice. We have experienced people who can give you that advice.” I was grateful that those midwives and doctors were able to accompany these teenage girls and help them come to a more sensible position.

I speak as somebody who is not against abortion, because the welfare of the mother and her rights need to be protected, but I am concerned about a measure that was brought in because of extreme circumstances. The Government were right, during the pandemic, to allow the kind of arrangement that was set up. But I am with the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, that we should not change overnight a tradition and circumstances that were accepted by the majority who see the right of abortion. We should not say that we will now go down this almost administrative route as the norm. Most people would be very concerned if we were going down a particular route.

I strongly believe, because of my experience of those teenage pregnancies in Tulse Hill, that the role of doctors, specialists in counselling and others is absolutely vital. You cannot do away with that because it is easier at the end of a telephone. You may not believe it, but young boys who had made girls pregnant would put pressure on them to have these abortions, for no reason other than that they wanted to move on to the next young girl. I still find that unacceptable.