Public Health: Night-time Working

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Thursday 6th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I start by thanking the noble Baroness for the article that she sent a link to, which addressed some of the issues around her Question. The sleep review is looking at all these issues. As she rightly says, there are some links between fatigue and certain ailments and diseases. On some of them, the academics are still challenging each other, but that is all part of the review.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, a wide body of research has revealed that a number of health conditions are related to night-shift working. In the Netherlands, breast cancer is now recognised as an industrial disease for female night-shift workers. What policies are the Government undertaking to deal with this body of research that points to health for night-shift workers being unequal?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The Government commissioned a review of sleep and health from the former Public Health England for 2020-21. That reported just before Christmas and is now being considered by Ministers and other officials. We are hoping that the Office for Health Improvement and Disparities will publish the findings in 2022. The review looked at a number of different things, including trends over time, optimal levels of sleep, links between mental and physical health, the economic impact and factors that hinder interventions to promote sleep. As the noble Lord rightly says, there is research out there about how workers can experience gastrointestinal disturbance and sleeping disorders and the possible association with breast cancer, cardiovascular disease and diabetes. All that will come out in the review, I hope.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Self-Isolation) (England) (Amendment) (No. 6) Regulations 2021

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Wednesday 15th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bilimoria (CB)]

My Lords, with plan B, while we have measures to keep the economy open, we have messages that have ended up closing much of it. There is fear and there are confusing messages, including the advice to work from home—just look at trains, buses and restaurants, which have seen a collapse in demand. We have to consider how necessary all this is, with a major South African study of 78,000 omicron cases showing that symptoms are significantly less severe than with the delta variant and that the vaccines still afford protection. There are many fewer hospitalisations and admissions to ICUs.

As president of the CBI, in July we produced a document called Living with the Virus. We are now updating it to Living with the Variants, in which we say that, if we follow these steps, there should be no necessity for a plan B or a plan C. First, there should be forward guidance to support businesses and organisations to adapt. We should prioritise mass testing over mass isolation or working from home. We should utilise all Covid-secure tools available to build employee and customer confidence. We must maximise our world-leading vaccine programme, of which we are all so proud—hats off to Kate Bingham and what she did. We should also use our antiviral programme as much as possible. We should prioritise border control so that we keep our country and economy open and, if there are restrictions, government support must move in lock-step with them.

If we follow these steps, there should be no need for a plan B or plan C. I am very proud that I was one of the first people in this country to call in August last year for lateral flow tests to be widely available. I am so glad that the Government eventually listened; they are very effective, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, said. Will the Minister confirm that the supply of lateral flow tests will be there and that they will be freely available—at the moment they are not even available—to businesses and the public until at least March next year, if not longer, as necessary?

Will he also confirm that the Government will put effort and urgency into the approval of antivirals? The best example I have is the Pfizer antiviral—tablets given for five days—which has shown in trials that it reduces hospitalisations and deaths by 89%. Can the MHRA approve drugs such as that as soon as possible? Can they be widely available, so that every GP has them and anyone, if they test positive and has symptoms, can take these tablets, which will lead to an 89% reduction in hospitalisations and deaths? That in itself could be “game over” for this wretched virus.

Can he also confirm that we will do everything possible to make sure that schools, colleges and universities are never shut again? Use daily lateral flow tests; do not have a bubble system or a million children isolating. It is completely unnecessary. The Oxford trial that took place between April and June last year proved that using lateral flow tests is the way forward, so that staff and students do not miss a single day of school. Can the Minister please assure us of that? Our children and parents have suffered so much. We should not let our children suffer any more.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, first of all, you will have heard me coughing—but I have done PCR and lateral flow tests and it is a chest infection. But I have found that coughing quite a bit is a way to get a seat on a train at the moment.

I have not prepared a speech, because I wanted to listen to the debate and see what happened. The most powerful speech so far has been that of the noble Lord, Lord Fowler. Let us be clear: political philosophy is not a tool that you use to deal with a health crisis. You have to listen to public health advice and the people who collectively advise the Government on that public health advice. There will of course be outliers—that is the nature of science—but SAGE is the body which brings scientists together to have those discussions and come to the best collective view on what is in the best interests of keeping people safe. This is not a political discussion about freedom or trying to say that you are the purest freedom fighter of all. I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, that political jibes about other parties’ philosophies are not what is required to bring about a safe and stable approach to keeping this country safe.

The clear issue in this is about test, trace and isolate. Those are the three pillars of public health policy, which will not end infection but will mitigate transmission by taking out as many chains of transmission as possible while people are infectious. The concept is as simple as that, but it is difficult in practice—and that is what government policy should be about.

This virus has shown itself to be complex. It mutates, which means that, at times, emergency legislation will be required—and because of this variant, emergency legislation is required. The Minister will know that I have been sceptical about some of the statutory instruments and whether they are an abuse of parliamentary procedure—I think some of them have been. However, these regulations are required in an emergency. We are talking about 2 million people potentially being affected by the end of next week, and it only takes a small proportion of those to be hospitalised to cause great damage to the NHS. The backlogs and the pressures on cancer treatment are because the health service cannot cope—not just with coronavirus but with the effects of the everyday procedures it needs to carry out.

I declare an interest: I am a non-executive director of Chesterfield Royal Hospital NHS Foundation Trust. It would be interesting to know whether those who have talked about the pressures on the health service have actually been to talk to the staff who are dealing with this, who are psychologically, as well as physically, drained. They are drained from the wave of difficulty that they have had to deal with, not just with coronavirus but the pressures of having to deal with people with ongoing problems and acute procedures. This wave is coming and it will mean that, yet again, more people will end up in intensive care and more people will die.

What can we do to try to minimise that? We test, we trace and we isolate. I have heard arguments that this is about the economy or public health, but it is not that binary; they affect each other. If you have 5 million to 6 million people infected, it affects the economy and it affects the NHS’s ability to cope with this. We have to go back to what the experts are saying and to these regulations: test, trace and isolate.

There are a couple of issues that I want to raise with the Minister, because I am a bit perplexed. I have no view that he is deliberately trying not to introduce test, trace and isolate procedures, but some of the things are contradictory and do not lead up to that approach.

The issue of self-isolation is about taking out chains of transmission, so that people are not circulating when they are most infected. But on the reduction of self-isolation and the use of lateral flow tests, paragraph 7.6 of the Explanatory Memorandum states:

“Close contacts of positive cases will be advised (but not required by the regulations as amended) to take daily tests for up to 7 days”.


That means that people are not required to test and to isolate, and there will be no tracing. What is the effect of that? I ask the Minister why it is not mandatory to test and upload those results, so test, trace and isolate can kick in. It seems to be a fundamental flaw in these regulations that people who have been in contact with somebody with Covid, and in particular with this most virulent strain, are told not to isolate and also not to test. If the key to public health is to test, trace and isolate, and we are taking out isolation and testing, how do we trace, particularly as we are told that the R rate could potentially be 3—so every person who is infected could infect another three people? This is a fundamental flaw, so will the Government look at this as a matter of urgency? It is vital.

I continue on some of the issues raised by my noble friend Lady Walmsley about the effectiveness of Covid certification. This is a chocolate teapot approach; it is not going to work. The reason for that has been laid out. If I have not had the booster, I may still have my certification and will be able to show it—but it could have been 10 or 11 months since I was vaccinated if this continues until March. That will mean I am 40% protected going into a large venue where I may actually infect people. The way to do this is a lateral flow test at the point of entry. That would not be 100% effective—nothing is in this type of pandemic—but it would be a damn sight more effective than relying on certification that is out of date, does not require a third dose and actually means that you are putting more people at risk of getting and spreading this than you would be if there was a lateral flow test on entry. Again, I urge the Government to look at this.

Finally, on the wearing of face coverings, lots of studies can be quoted but most come down to this fact: the argument is not about whether they are effective, apart from certain outliers that have not been peer-reviewed, but the extent to which they actually reduce transmission. In this case, where we are talking about numbers doubling every two days and up to 1 million or 2 million people being infected a week, it is important to do everything possible to minimise transmission, as part of a systematic approach. That is why face coverings are important.

Just as important as wearing them is who will enforce the wearing of them. It is unfair to leave it solely to private enterprise to deal with, so what is the enforcement regime? My noble friend Lady Walmsley referred to our noble friend Lady Pinnock and, similarly, I came down on an East Midlands train on Monday. I had to ask six people to put on their face coverings. One was quite verbally violent towards me. I was not doing it to be difficult; I was trying to protect people in that carriage. The evidence is that we wear masks not to protect ourselves but to try to stop the spread of a disease that could kill somebody—and I do not know who it will kill. Who is going to enforce? So I will not be voting for the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, on face coverings.

I might vote for the noble Lord’s amendment on certification simply because, for me, it is not a political issue but a practical one about whether certificates will work, because I think lateral flow tests will. Generally, I want this debate not to be about who is the purest of all in upholding a political philosophy. I want it to be about listening to SAGE and the collective view of scientists, and about doing everything possible to follow the public health view of test, trace and isolate, and trying to keep as many people as safe as possible and reducing the risk of death and serious illness to people in this country.

Covid-19: PCR and Lateral Flow Test Providers

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Monday 13th December 2021 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Scriven]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what due diligence they carry out on companies listed on GOV.UK, that offer travel PCR and lateral flow tests for COVID-19.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Kamall) (Con)]

The private sector has stepped up extremely rapidly, and most of the tens of thousands of travellers have had an excellent and professional service. However, we do not tolerate any providers taking advantage of customers. All providers in the PCR international travel market are required to meet robust minimum standards, and we remove those we identify as having fallen short of them. Since we launched the travel service, we have removed over 100 providers.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, for many people that is just not their lived experience. The approved supply list for the two-day PCR test on GOV.UK is fundamentally flawed. Many thousands of people either do not receive the test results within the two-day timeline or at all. Despite many people reporting these companies to NHS Test and Trace, they remain on the list as of today, making tens of thousands of pounds while undermining the public health effort. What will the Minister do to ensure that this kind of procedure stops?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

It is important to distinguish between PCR tests if you are contacted by NHS Test and Trace and PCR tests for travel purposes. If you are contacted by test and trace, you are sent a PCR test for free. But when it comes to travel, the view is that the traveller should bear that cost rather than the taxpayer. After I saw this Question, I went on to one of these websites and tested it out for myself. As the noble Lord says, the price quoted is often not the first price. I have had a conversation with those that provide it, and they are looking at a number of different solutions.

Medical Schools: Training Places

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Monday 13th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The Government follow strict ethical guidelines on international recruitment, in line with WHO guidance, which says we should not be taking nurses and doctors from countries and depriving their health services. But where countries have a surplus—a number of developing countries around the world actually train more people than they have a use for in the local system—they see it as a valuable source of income.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, it is not just a question of the total number of doctors but the number in certain specialisms where there is already a dearth of professionals. What are the Government doing to ensure that, as more doctors come on, they are particularly geared to specialisms where there is already a dire dearth of doctors?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

When it comes to workforce plans, particularly in local areas where there is understaffing, we are very much focused on specialisms that are understaffed.

Covid-19 Update

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Wednesday 8th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I attended a meeting this afternoon with leading epidemiologists, showing the data and separating the omicron variant, the delta variant and the original coronavirus. They have the data, and one of the reasons we have made this announcement is because we are able to distinguish between them. We are constantly reviewing the data for the original coronavirus and the variants but, if the noble Lord has any more scientific or medical questions, he should let me know or attend the briefing with Jenny Harries on Friday.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, the Statement says that the Government are looking to introduce daily tests for contacts instead of self-isolation. I have a couple of questions. My noble friend Lady Brinton asked what the false negative rate is for lateral flow tests at the moment. Secondly, what will be the legal obligation for a person to take this test and then to upload the result so that people know that contacts are taking the lateral flow test?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I am not quite sure about the latest data, because clearly more people have been taking them, but accuracy was in the very high 90s. However, I will commit to write to the noble Lord. On his second question, I will make sure that we get that information out as quickly as possible.

Covid-19 Update

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Wednesday 10th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

There clearly are concerns. These were expressed in the stakeholder engagement that occurred with both the social care sector and other sectors that will need to bring this in from March next year—we are bringing it in now but with a grace period until next March. A lot of this engagement and consultation discussed how we can support staff who are unwilling to be vaccinated as well as understanding their concerns and whether employers see these as legitimate.

Thinking back to the beginning of the crisis, one of the reasons this was called for in care homes as quickly as possible was the data from the early part of the pandemic, when there were a disproportionate number of deaths in care homes. A number of people, including patient groups and families of patients, were quite adamant that if their relatives were in a care home, they wanted to make sure that they were being looked after by staff who had been vaccinated.

There is another vaccine that is a condition of deployment, that for hepatitis B. I have asked medical staff whether they are concerned about this and a number have said no, because they are already compelled to have the vaccine for hepatitis B. That is a condition of deployment and staff see this vaccine as just as essential. That assuaged some of the concerns I had over compulsion. These are difficult, unprecedented times. We would not ordinarily want to go with compulsion, but the health of the nation is at risk and many people want to feel much more reassured that they, or their family members who are receiving care, are looked after by people who have been vaccinated.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

Evidence-based policy is really important on this. Statistics from the Nuffield Trust show that, with the mitigations that healthcare and hospitals are putting in place, hospital-acquired Covid rates have been coming down since the middle of the year, while rates in the community have been rising. The reason for that is that the mitigation includes face-covering measures which, as the NHS Chief Nursing Officer, Ruth May, said in July,

“will remain in place across healthcare settings so that the most vulnerable people can continue to safely attend hospital”.

If that is the case, why was the Prime Minister not wearing a face covering when in a hospital this week?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question and other noble Lords for their questions. I am not the Prime Minister’s keeper; it is as simple as that. We all decide for ourselves. I wear a mask whenever I can and when I talk to different people, I make sure that we are seen to be wearing masks. I thank noble Lords across the House who are leading by example by wearing a mask.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

In consultation with the social care sector and the wider NHS, including trusts, discussions have looked at the impact and what would happen, but also how to make the message more positive, how to encourage staff to take up vaccines and how to listen to their concerns. In some cases, employers have said that they do not feel that staff have given a legitimate reason for not taking up the vaccine, but they are also under pressure from patients’ families to make sure that they employ care staff who have been vaccinated. They are trying all the different areas of persuasion, including targeted campaigns and one-to-one conversations in some cases, to encourage them as much as possible. At the end of the day, even before the introduction of vaccinations as a condition of deployment, many care homes were already trying to push their staff to take vaccinations because they are concerned about their patients.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

As we have time, the Minister has just said from the Dispatch Box that the Prime Minister was following the rules of the trust he visited. That trust says on its website that you must

“wear a face covering when you enter the hospital until you leave”,

and adds:

“You must ensure that you wear your covering or mask throughout your visit and you must not remove your face covering/mask or kiss your loved one.”


By not wearing a mask, in either a clinical or non-clinical area, how was the Prime Minister carrying out the policy of that trust to try to save vulnerable people from being contaminated with Covid-19?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

Whenever I have visited hospitals during the lockdowns or restrictions, we have sought advice from the staff around us. We have asked what measures are appropriate and whether we should keep face coverings on at all times. There have been times when they have said that, in particular areas, you can take your mask off. I was not at the visit yesterday, as I am sure the noble Lord will acknowledge—in fact, I was here answering questions—so I cannot go into detail. However, having visited hospitals myself, I am aware that you go in wearing a mask by default, but there are times when staff say, “In this area, you can take it off”.

Covid-19 Vaccinations

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Monday 8th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

I really find this offensive; I am trying to make a point. I am about to get to my question. Many Members of the Lords do this, but I find that specific Members are always prevented from speaking out. I want to finish my point, which is to say that the health inequalities remain a deep scar among many communities and many sections of the community, where the constant bombardment of information has long since died. Will the Minister agree that we need to continue to mandate masks and ensure that there are meaningful—

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

Question!

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

I have asked a question.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, will the Minister agree that incredibly important environmental safeguards continue to be required to prevent children catching Covid and to empower parents with sufficient information so that they can make informed choices?

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

Outrageous.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

I hope you say that at other times.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

I do; you went on for two minutes.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question, I think. To be fair, she has made a number of points, especially about disparities and inequalities. It is quite sad that there is low uptake of the vaccine in a number of communities. I know that the noble Baroness has done a lot of good work in the past in Tower Hamlets and other areas with minority communities.

The most important way we can tackle this issue is to encourage people to be vaccinated. We want to roll out the booster as quickly as possible and, sadly, too many people have still not taken their first and second vaccines yet. I know that noble Lords across the House have many contacts in many communities, so it is important, please, to come to me with suggestions and ideas. I have spoken to a number of noble Lords across the House about how to tackle this and how best to reach people who are hesitant and who may not trust authority, and encourage them to take the vaccine. I thank the noble Baroness for her question.

Public Health Grant to Local Authorities

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd November 2021 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Scriven]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government by what percentage the public health grant to local authorities has (1) increased, or (2) decreased, since 2016.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, in begging leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, I declare my interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Kamall) (Con)]

Since 2016, the local authority public health grant has decreased by 2% in cash terms, but we increased the grant in 2020-21, and in 2021-22, and it now stands at over £3.3 billion. We are maintaining the grant in real terms over the next three years to enable local authorities to deliver preventive and front-line health services which will improve the health and well-being of their communities.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, even with the recent cash increases, the public health grant has been cut in money terms since 2016 by £1 billion, curtailing services such as smoking cessation, healthy families, and sexual health clinics. If the Government really are committed to preventing poor health, why did the Chancellor not restore in the Budget the £1 billion to improve public heath, rather than prioritising giving banks a £4 billion tax break?

Health Incentives Scheme

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Thursday 28th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for answering questions on the Statement, which was first made on Friday, before the Government began press releasing new—and some not so new—spending commitments, and eventually published their full Budget yesterday. I must admit to having been somewhat bemused when I read this Statement. It felt like being taken on something of a gentle canter around the issues. To put it mildly, it is more than unusual to see the announcement of an app and wrist-worn devices making the grade for the substance of a parliamentary Statement presented to both Houses.

I make this point because it is important to say that, on any measure, the Government have decimated the budgets necessary to tackle the underlying causes of poor health and the inequalities that arise from and contribute to its incidence and effects. As we know, poor health has many costs—social, economic and personal—and I regret that the Statement is a fig leaf for inaction. Although the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State have acknowledged that stark health disparities exist, the Government repeatedly fail to face the target, let alone hit it.

The pandemic has highlighted just how important it is to have a healthy and resilient nation. Preventing and treating disease is vital for reducing further unnecessary deaths from disease and lessening the burden on the NHS as it contends with the enormous backlog in healthcare caused by the pandemic. However, the Budget presented contradictions, as funding will be mostly focused on a curative rather than preventive approach, which would have prevented obesity and non-communicable diseases happening in the first place. Public health experts and practitioners alike agree that investment in the prevention of disease could make the single biggest difference to the nation’s resilience and health, so can the Minister explain the reason for this omission from the Budget? Does he agree that failure to invest in public health will harm the Government’s levelling-up agenda?

Specifically, we were disappointed not to see any further public health funding in the Budget to allow local authorities to deliver key prevention services, such as smoking cessation and weight management. It is well documented that locally provided public health services are highly effective and cost effective. Can the Minister tell your Lordships’ House why this was ignored?

We on these Benches have campaigned for many years against this Government’s short-sighted cuts to public health funding. A reduction in spending of a quarter in this area has led to growing obesity in our population, loss of smoking cessation services, a ticking time bomb of poor sexual health, and overburdened drugs and alcohol services. Of course, any savings made by those cuts has been hoovered up by the impact on the rest of the health service.

Obesity is at a crisis level in this country. Two-thirds of adults are above a healthy weight; half are obese. A new IPPR report says that multiple disadvantages were “conspiring” to drive down health outcomes and prevent life expectancy from growing across parts of England. Hundreds of thousands of children in England are growing up overweight or obese because of widening health disparities across the country. Their excess weight means that they will face a higher risk of serious conditions, such as type 2 diabetes, heart disease or cancer, later in life. The IPPR analysis found that as many as one in 12 cases could be avoided if health outcomes in the worst parts of England were improved to match the best. This does not make pretty reading.

We are of course not going to argue against measures that attempt to help the public improve their health, but like the obesity strategy that precedes it, the latest pilot announced in the Statement is tinkering around the edges. We need to acknowledge that tackling obesity is about tackling poverty. People in the poorest communities are twice as likely to be obese as those in the best off. This scheme is about encouraging people to make healthy choices, but the cost of living crisis will make that even harder for too many people. How is someone supposed to make healthy choices if they simply cannot afford to?

According to a report by Broken Plate, the poorest fifth of UK households would need to spend 40% of their disposable income on food to meet Eatwell Guide costs, as opposed to just 7% for the richest fifth. Therefore, if poverty limits someone’s food choices, their exercise choices and their time, can the Minister tell the House why this does not feature in the heart of the Government’s plan to tackle this scourge?

Whatever this pilot achieves, and whatever their obesity strategy achieves, it will be completely undermined by the £20 a week cut to universal credit, which, despite yesterday’s announcement, will push millions on to cheaper, less healthy alternatives. Can the Minister tell the House what will happen to the health of adults and our children? Will those who are invited to join this pilot come from the communities that will benefit most? They are the people who have suffered most from the cuts to public health. Will the Minister commit that this scheme and the obesity strategy will be followed by the restoration of moneys cut from the public health grant?

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, from these Benches I thank the Minister for coming to answer questions on the Statement. These Benches welcome anything, including innovation, that targets the poor health and loss of life years that obesity brings. However, this is really the emperor’s new clothes, because it has to be set in the wider context of the detriment of poor health, public health budgets and poverty. Public health budgets have been decimated, so that many issues connected to the determinants of health cannot be dealt with. Low pay has become the norm for so many in our country. School budgets for extra activities, such as physical activity, and timetabling have caused problems, and food and drinks industry standards also have to be addressed. Tackling obesity is about tackling the lack of opportunity and tackling poverty. Innovation with a wristband is like asking somebody to learn the Green Cross Code they have a motorway to get across. It is not going to be successful.

As a country, we have to start early: we have the second-largest child obesity problem in the whole of Europe. So what are the Government doing to ensure that daily sport as an activity is available in every state school, so that every child has some daily activity? What is the Government’s response to the report by the Association for Physical Education with regard to children’s health and, in particular, with regard to swimming?

Diet at home and in school is important. The Jamie Oliver Foundation Bite Back report basically found that healthy options in schools were more expensive. What are the Government doing to ensure that fresh, healthy food is available at an affordable price in every school in the country? How are the pilots being chosen? The correct areas are the areas of deprivation, because that is where the highest incidences of obesity are. What are the criteria? How are they being selected? How are areas being offered the chance to become part of the pilot? This must be seen as a healthy eating and exercise approach, and not a weight-loss problem. There are far too many citizens in our country who suffer with eating disorder issues. So what are the Government doing to ensure that it is this framework of healthy eating and healthy lifestyles, rather than being seen purely as weight loss?

With regard to the wristband and the data, who will have access to the data? Where will it be stored? What precisely will the data be used for? Will any private sector organisation have access to the data and its interpretation, and, if so, what conditions are in place to ensure that we do not have the problem that we had with DeepMind, where it was used for purposes over and above what was anticipated?

Finally, talking of the private sector, HeadUp Systems is noted in the Statement. This is a company that has a £30,000 turnover and made an £11,000 loss last year. So how, and on what criteria, was HeadUp Systems chosen? What role will it have? Which other private sector organisations were asked to provide the support that HeadUp Systems is doing? What Ministers or officials did members of HeadUp Systems approach or have access to? If there is a contract, what is its value and on what basis was it given to HeadUp Systems?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Kamall) (Con)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their questions. This is a good story in terms of how we tackle health in the modern day. The noble Baroness mentioned the IPPR. I am not sure how well the name “Tony Blair” goes down on the Benches opposite these days—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for those important questions, which are exactly those that I would have asked—and, in fact, did ask the briefing team when I was getting more details on this matter.

Of course, one of the most obvious things that we have to ask is: how do people game the system? Often, when one analyses a scheme, sometimes there are unintended consequences whereby people are able to game it. Someone asked me—I think and hope that it was in jest—“If I ate 75 cream cakes and blamed my metabolism, would I be able to get on to the scheme?” We have to make sure that our data is robust. The pilot will include robust anti-fraud measures in relation to users’ activity and access to incentives.

What is interesting about the scheme is that it is voluntary, but it will also make sure that the users input the data. There has been a lot of research around that, because it has seemed to be a potential weakness, if users were inputting the data, regarding whether they can game the system. We have been assured that measures have been put in place to avoid that sort of gaming but, once again, the evidence will tell. That is why the system is not national but is a pilot to test all these questions to the limit.

The noble Lord mentioned weight loss and obesity, which I shall come to. One of the things that we want to make clear is that the health incentives scheme is not a weight-loss programme; it is a programme for healthy living. It uses an innovative approach to rewards and incentives to help participants to adopt healthier behaviours for physical activity and diet. Of course, it will help those who are overweight. I have been on two diets in my life—no, really I have. What is interesting about this is that, when one looks at these issues, it is not just a question of consuming less but about burning off calories. That is why we want to encourage healthy living as opposed to purely tackling obesity. That is very important.

The other day, I met a young lady who was very slim. She said, “Why do you keep going on about obesity and type-2 diabetes? I am slim and I have type-2 diabetes”. So sometimes we have to make sure that we are clear about these connections.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

The Minister has been going for about two minutes now.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

Oh I see. I bow to the superior expertise in this House of the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, and I will sit down.

Health Care and Adult Social Care

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Wednesday 27th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises an important point but before I answer that specifically, I reassure her that I am a Liverpool fan, as well as an Enfield Town fan. It so happens that my middle name is Salah. I think that I can wear that name on the back of my shirt with pride. I assure noble Lords that I did not line that question up. One reason why the Office for Health Improvement and Disparities was set up in the first place was to look at disparities across a wide range of issues, not only in social care but in relation to gender inequalities, ethnic minority inequalities and some of the other inequalities and disparities between various areas. As the noble Baroness rightly says, sometimes one can find some of the poorest communities right next to the some of the wealthiest. We are hoping to address those issues through the work of the Office for Health Improvement and Disparities, by first identifying where disparities are and then addressing them.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, with more than 105,000 vacancies in social care, we have a bit of a crisis. Which job would the Minister advise a low-paid worker to take when offered one of these three full-time jobs, all advertised today: a delivery driver at £11 an hour, a supermarket shelf stacker at £10 an hour or a senior care assistant at £9.25 an hour?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I do not see myself as someone who is able to offer jobs advice or careers advice. But the points made by the noble Lord help to explain in many ways some of the pressures that care home providers are facing when recruiting in a competitive market. The Government have looked at funding and how we can work with care providers, particularly as many are in the private sector, as I said earlier. They are not directly controlled by the Government and we can therefore work with local authorities and care providers on how to make sure that they pay a competitive salary to attract care workers to work in the social care system, as opposed to some of the more competitive sectors that the noble Lord mentioned.