Covid-19 Update

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Thursday 12th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I am not sure that I entirely understood the question. In terms of the private beds that we intended to use, that capacity was extremely valuable as a fallback during the first wave, but I am pleased to say that it was not needed. There is some testing in the private sector, but we are not leaning on that at the moment. The testing that is done by the Government is through test and trace, and we are committed to using as much of that capacity as is needed.

[Lord Scriven (LD) [V]]

The Statement says nothing about antibody testing. On 6 October, the noble Lord announced the £75 million single-source purchase of antibody test kits from Abingdon Health. Official correspondence, dated 1 October, reveals that the department had a report by Public Health England that shows that those antibody tests were not accurate enough for their intended use and that the department would delay publication of the report until after the Government announced that they had purchased them. Why was that, Minister?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

If the noble Lord would not mind, could he repeat the question, because I could not hear the words, I am afraid?

[Lord Scriven (LD) [V]]

The Statement says nothing about antibody testing. On 6 October, the noble Lord announced the £75 million single-source purchase of antibody test kits from Abingdon Health. Official correspondence, dated 1 October, reveals that the department had a report by Public Health England that shows that those antibody tests were not accurate enough for their intended use and that the department would delay publication of the report until after the Government had announced that they had been purchased. Why was that, Minister?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I am afraid I am not familiar with the report to which the noble Lord refers. I am glad to undertake to write with an answer to that question.

Covid-19: Vaccine

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Wednesday 11th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

We are working extremely closely with the Northern Ireland Administration to ensure deployment of the vaccine; as I said earlier, this will be done on a four-nations approach. The Oxford vaccine is going through the final stages of phase 3. We are very much looking forward to hearing how it is going but I am afraid to say that I do not have a precise date for when that will be.

[Lord Scriven (LD) [V]]

My Lords, what specific arrangements have the Government put in place at our borders to ensure that the vaccine can pass speedily, without hindrance, from Belgium after 31 December?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, we have extremely detailed and thorough arrangements for our borders on 31 December. No problems are envisaged with regard to the vaccine.

Covid-19: Contracts and Mass Testing Programme

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Wednesday 4th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right that transparency is key. I take those principles extremely seriously, and that is why we are publishing the contracts. I encourage anyone who is interested in looking at them to look at my Twitter feed, where I published a link to the Contracts Finder service yesterday. I reassure her that, although some connections were made through networks, absolutely every contract had exactly the same technical assurance, exactly the same contract negotiation and exactly the same procurement scrutiny. Those were done by civil servants, and value for money for the taxpayer and the people was guaranteed by that process.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister seems to say that there is nothing to see here, whereas some of us think that there is a whiff of uncertainty and of some things being not quite right. Therefore, will he agree to appoint an independent forensic auditor to carry out an independent report that can be published publicly to show exactly what has happened with PPE procurement?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I do not want to give the impression that absolutely everything is perfect. Those were desperate days and we had to do extraordinary things to protect our healthcare staff. I remind noble Lords that other countries were flying in their representatives with bags of cash on private jets in order to seal contracts and some of our supplies were literally taken from under our noses on the runway at Hong Kong airport. They were extremely difficult times and I do not pretend for a moment that everything was absolutely perfect, but I reassure noble Lords that the right procedures were put in place by officials, and I reassure the noble Lord that these figures are currently being validated with the National Audit Office.

Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Restrictions) (England) (No. 4) Regulations 2020

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Wednesday 4th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, in September 500 people were in hospital with Covid-related symptoms. Today, as we speak, the figure is nearly 11,000. If the Government had taken the advice of SAGE at the beginning of September, the number would clearly have been lower.

The effect on the NHS of having 11,000 Covid patients is not just a crisis in critical care for Covid patients; it is a crisis for anybody who has a life-threatening condition. Beds are filling up and, if this rate continues, people with life-threatening conditions will not be able to get the life-saving treatment they need in the NHS. That is why we need to act. I have some sympathy with some of the amendments that have been tabled but, because of that one fact, I cannot support them today. It is beholden on us to act, not just because of those with Covid but because of those who will have strokes, heart attacks and other life-threatening conditions now that we have got to this stage. I blame the Government for getting to this stage by not acting faster, but that one statistic alone makes me feel that we have to act.

We then have four weeks in which the Government have to put in place a national system for sorting out test, trace and isolate. On testing, it is not just a case of putting another two or three noughts on the number of tests carried out; it is about getting to the right people at the right time and getting the test back speedily. That is absolutely vital. The Government need to make sure that they stop talking just about quantity and start talking about quality as well.

Tracing is a national disgrace and is causing the virus to spread faster. We need to localise the tracing system, with local knowledge and shoe-leather epidemiology. We need people who know the streets, back doors and ginnels, and who know where to get to and how to speak to people. The Government need to localise by working with industry, academia and local government. It has to be about not just money but expertise, getting the data in a way that local areas require. That is absolutely vital.

Isolating is about giving people financial security so that they do not have to worry about feeding their children or paying their mortgage or rent. It should be seen as a national and civic duty which the Government support, without more sticks or penalties. Taiwan has shown how this can be done: with Covid teams which go in and support people, not just financially but with psychological help. There is help with childcare and food, and by checking on people’s health.

So, through gritted teeth, I will support these regulations. We, the public, will do our bit. We will stay at home, protect the NHS and save lives, but over the next four weeks the Government have to do their bit—sorting out the test, trace and isolate system.

Blood Safety and Quality (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Monday 2nd November 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

I too thank the Minister for presenting the statutory instruments. I will speak in particular to the blood safety and quality regulations. These are clearly very important and, as we get closer to the date by which a deal was meant to have been arrived at and there is not one, they become even more important, particularly given the shelf life of blood.

I will follow on from what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said. Standards in Northern Ireland are linked to the EU and will continue to be linked to the EU under the agreement. For Great Britain, divergence can take place. I note that the Minister said it was a floor and not a ceiling, but sometimes the floor can fall in, even with small changes—for example, on the storage of blood. So how will the Government ensure that divergence does not mean that standards will change before they come before Parliament and are passed into law, which could mean that the supply of blood becomes slower than is operationally required?

I note that 6.5% of plasma is imported from the EU to the UK. Can the Minister confirm what arrangements have been made to ensure that that plasma will continue to be available to those in GB—and speedily? If we go to a no-deal arrangement, what arrangements are there and what discussions have been had with the EU with regard to our position on getting this supply of plasma? Will it change if we are a third country? I seek exactly the same assurances on the supply of blood for patients with rare diseases who require imported blood and blood components. What arrangements have been made to ensure that the supply and standards remain the same over a period of time?

If the EU brings in new technical updates, what processes for Great Britain will be in place and how will they be linked to future EU standards? What proactive work will take place, or will we have to reactively change if the EU changes its standards and is seen to diverge?

It is clear that the arrangements on this seem certain—but only if the GB Government decide not to diverge at any point. I want assurances in particular on that, but also with regard to supply. In the House of Commons debate at the time of the 2019 regulations, the Under-Secretary of State at the Department of Health and Social Care stated very clearly that the fast-tracking of shipments at ports and alternative routes were being prepared. Have those now been prepared and, if they have, what arrangements are in place for the fast-tracking of shipments at ports and alternative routes for the supply of blood into the UK, Northern Ireland and GB?

Covid-19: Intensive Care Treatment

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Thursday 29th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the implementation of the long-term plan is under way, despite Covid. We have put the care of the elderly—and, in fact, all those who are vulnerable and in need of social care, half of whom are under 60—at the centre of our efforts. Returning to the point of the question and the article, I remind noble Lords that two-thirds of our Covid in-patients were over 65. Each got the support and treatment that they deserved and needed, and that will remain our commitment during any second wave.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, in April NHS England issued the Reference Guide for Emergency Medicine. Non-conveyance guidelines for ambulance services stated that any care home resident should not be taken to hospital until it was discussed with a clinical advisor. Why, therefore, was a resident in a care home not given equal treatment of access to hospital as an equivalent person outside the care home setting, and has that instruction been withdrawn?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I do not know whether that specific instruction has been withdrawn; I will be glad to write to the noble Lord on that. I reassure him that, during an epidemic of a highly contagious disease, a hospital might not be the safest place for someone who is ill in a care home; nor would it necessarily be the safest place for someone who has gone to their GP and is sitting in the GP’s surgery. It is therefore absolutely essential that clinical risk management and advice is sought before referral to a hospital. There is no prejudice or unfairness here: it is simply good clinical practice.

Covid-19: Test Results

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Tuesday 27th October 2020 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Scriven]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what immediate changes they are making to improve the speed of test results for COVID-19.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)]

My Lords, in the last two months we have responded to the rising demand for tests, the rising infection rates, the need to protect the front line in health and social care, the need for clinical trials for vaccine-to-medicines, outbreak control and surveillance by doubling the number of tests to 360,000. This has impacted turnaround times, which is regrettable, but we are focused on increasing capacity to raise efficiency, investing in the logistical backbone and encouraging users to the weekends, which will bring turnaround times down to the objective of next-day results.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, this morning I spoke to Allan Wilson, the president of the Institute of Biomedical Science, which represents 20,000 professional lab staff. He wrote to the department in early April to offer his free advice on how to improve the system and get a speedy testing system. Seven months later, the department responded with a letter advising him to go to the government portal for public contracts. Will the Minister now agree to meet the person who probably has the most experience of labs up and down the country? Why are the Government shunning Mr Wilson of the Institute of Biomedical Science in favour of paying £700,000 a day to management consultants?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I am distressed to hear the anecdote that the noble Lord has just shared with us. We embrace the support and help of anyone who steps forward, particularly someone such as Mr Wilson, who clearly has an enormous amount of expertise. I would be delighted if he would write to me personally and I would be very prepared to meet him. I would also like give massive thanks to all those from all the relevant logistical, pathology, military and medical sciences who have formed an organisation practically the size of Tesco, which is what the national diagnostic system now looks like. It is only with the support of British industry, universities and business that we have been able to build this up and we are enormously grateful for that support.

Covid-19: South Yorkshire

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Thursday 22nd October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, the last few days have been very unfortunate. Arrogance, spitefulness and divisiveness seem to be the characteristics of the Government’s approach to attempting to control the Covid infection these days. If I were being charitable, I might say that this is a product of panic and not actually knowing what to do next. If I were being less charitable, I would say that it is a characteristic of order by diktat, punishing and humiliating—or trying to—those who will not do as they are told when championing their communities. Thus, instead of dividing communities and bargaining with people’s jobs, there needs to be a one-nation approach to bring this country together, get control of the virus and protect the NHS. We have not seen that this week.

The Mayor of Greater Manchester said that he felt that the Government were

“playing poker with places and people’s lives through a pandemic”.

He asked what that is about. Is that the politics of the Prime Minister, Mr Cummings and the Cabinet?

To underline what we are facing, on Tuesday, the number of UK deaths rose by 241—the highest daily reported rise since the first wave of the pandemic. Noble Lords might remember the ridicule Patrick Vallance suffered when his chart suggested that an unchecked virus would lead to 200 deaths a day by mid-November; we are in mid-October and we are at 241. Similarly scary were Jonathan Van-Tam’s charts showing rising hospitalisation of the over-60s and the NHS medical director Stephen Powis saying that, on Wednesday, Liverpool hospitals will have as many Covid patients as they did at the height of the pandemic in April, and that Manchester hospitals will face the same record in two weeks’ time.

If I might be political about this, I remind the Minister that many of the new MPs from those seats on which the Government’s majority depends are learning the hard way what they signed up for: a great deal more than an oven-ready Brexit and quite the opposite of levelling up. They will have to go to their communities and justify: what the Government are doing and not doing; why children might not be properly fed over the winter months; why there will be a huge unemployment rate and businesses going to the wall; and, indeed, why the Covid infection rate is not responding to the sacrifices already being made in South Yorkshire, Manchester and other places in the north and the Midlands.

I will repeat some of the questions put in the Commons by my right honourable friend the leader of the Labour Party; perhaps I might get more coherent responses than he achieved. He asked,

“how does an area which goes into tier 3 restrictions get out of those restrictions? … If the infection rate, R, in a tier 3 area has not come below 1, will it be possible in any circumstances for that area to come out of tier 3”?—[Official Report, Commons, 21/10/20; col. 1053.]

If the criteria is not the R rate being under one, what is the criteria for moving from one tier to another? Millions of people need to know the answer to that question; millions of them are in tier 3 and millions are more likely to go into tier 3.

Last Friday, the Chief Scientific Officer said that tier 3 on its own would certainly not be enough to get the R rate below one but, on the same day, the Prime Minister said that there was only one chance of getting the infection rate down. So I repeat my right honourable friend’s question: which is it? Let us try to find some clarification on the confusion. There is still no clarity about how any local area gets out of tier 3 restrictions, nor any guarantees that communities will get the funding that they need to save jobs and businesses. I hope that they will but I am not sure that they will.

Sheffield went into tier 2 restrictions a week last Wednesday. Did Ministers make the wrong judgment a week ago or has new evidence that was not apparent then come to light, because it has now been put into tier 3? How many other areas in tier 2, such as those that neighbour South Yorkshire—including Bradford, my hometown, North East Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire —face the same fate as Sheffield? Can the Minister tell us how long South Yorkshire will be in this tier 3 lockdown? I repeat again: does the nationwide R number need to fall below one? What happens if Doncaster gets below one? Will it be able to leave lockdown?

Finally, I turn to shielding because it was suspended a few months ago, as noble Lords might recall. As we move into tier 3 and while all the science seems to suggest that the infection rate is creeping up the age groups, what will happen to shielding? Dr Stephen Griffin, associate professor in the School of Medicine at the University of Leeds, said:

“Critically, I am aghast that shielding remains paused. Whilst it saddens me to see that this is once again our only recourse to protect those most vulnerable to COVID, they must be enabled both socially and financially to protect themselves once more. Whatever transpires as a result of policy, it must be accompanied by a return to the commitments made earlier this year. Most importantly, testing”


has to work properly. His comments came after the Deputy Chief Medical Officer, Jonathan Van-Tam, expressed his concern for the rate of change in infections among the over-60s across the nation.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as a resident of Sheffield and, knowing the area well, as a former leader of Sheffield City Council. I note that I will not be the only former leader of Sheffield City Council who will speak on this Statement; unusually, we will probably both agree with each other again.

We have to remind ourselves that going into any of these tiers, particularly very high, and a blanket lockdown is a failure of one thing: an effective test, trace and isolate system. Countries that have that do not have to have blanket lockdowns; it is absolutely vital that the Government understand that.

There is beginning to be a feeling of a north/south divide on this. It is ironic that Greater Manchester has not had any extra support for jobs when it has been in the equivalent of tier 2 for quite a few months. It is telling that, just a couple of days after London goes into tier 2, suddenly the Chancellor is on his feet talking about a tier 2 system for extra job support.

Having spoken to a number of people in South Yorkshire over the last 24 hours, let me tell you what the feeling is: anxiety, fear and uncertainty. I have spoken to people in tears, who have a business and who just do not understand why they are asked to do things. I reiterate the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton: you cannot plan a business or your life if you have no idea of the criteria and the trigger points for being released from tier 3. This cannot be left to a number of suits in an office, deciding the livelihoods and the businesses of many areas. What are the criteria and the trigger points for release and for going into a certain tier—not just tier 3? They need to be public, not the private judgments of people in a private meeting.

Also, why is the support package per head and not more nuanced? The support package for people in Sheffield is £29 per head—£30 million for business and £11 million for public health—but why is it a flat rate? When we know that older people, BAME communities and deprived people are more affected, why is there not a weighting in an area for those particular issues? They are the ones who will be greatly affected and more spending will be needed. Again, why is the business support package per capita? Why is it not based on the number and type of businesses that will be affected? Why does the formula seem so out of sync with what local areas will need to do?

I am pleased that there is support, at only £8 per head, for public health, which includes a local test, trace and isolate system. From this support, apart from money, what extra resources and expertise will local areas in South Yorkshire be able to call on to implement an effective localised test, trace and isolate system? We want to do our bit in South Yorkshire but we want to see fairness and a package that will minimise the effect of this high-level rate on both businesses and people.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, put the sense of jeopardy and anxiety about the current situation extremely well. Anyone providing for their family or running a business will feel a huge amount of anxiety or even deep concern about the prospects for the next few months, and that is completely understandable. That is why we take all these matters incredibly seriously, why we are focused on it as a Government, and why we have made it such a large priority. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, put the grave sense of jeopardy extremely well when she referenced the Vallance graph, which was so derided when it was first posted and which has come to haunt us since then, the clear sense of concern from Jonathan Van-Tam, and the description of the state of our hospitals and intensive care units from Steve Powis. All those were grave warnings and have come to play out in a way that I am afraid worries us all.

At the heart of this debate is a question about the local lockdowns. They are necessary for those very reasons I just described. The infection rates have gone through the roof, they are profound, and they are having an impact right through all the demographics. In many cases they may have started in universities and with young people but they have moved relentlessly through the age demographics and are leading to hospitals filling up in a way that any mathematician, or anyone like me with an O-level in maths, can see is completely unsustainable without a major intervention. Our priority is to try to manage those interventions in a way that strikes the right balance, preserving the economy, keeping the schools open and keeping our lives as normal as possible, but which has an impact on the transmission of the disease. That is why these local lockdowns are so very important, because they are a way of introducing targeted measures to populations in a way that can close down the spread of the disease within a community.

When we say “community”, one of the lessons we have learned is that people travel within their regions a great deal, so we cannot be laser-like and targeted and just shut down a street, a town or a village. We have learned that we have to apply it to substantial regions; otherwise, the disease rolls from one small community to the next. Making these local lockdowns work is not in any particular government interest but in all of our interests. I ask noble Lords to step back from the temptation to introduce party politics into a subject which is driven by genuine public health concerns. It does not help anyone to talk in terms of north-south divides, people being at each other’s throats, scum, or any of the other political rhetoric that has been associated with the last week.

I come back to something that I have said many times at this Dispatch Box. It has been derided by those on the Benches opposite but it remains true and I see it every day of the week. There is a huge amount of bilateral and multilateral dialogue between central government and the agencies of central government—including the Cabinet Office, the DHSC, BEIS, MHCLG, NHS Test and Trace, and the NHS—and those in the regions and in the DAs. There are massive weekly calls, such as the one between the CMO and the DPHs, the one between the BEIS Secretary of State and the business community up and down the country, and the Thursday call between the MHCLG and 350 council chief executives and leaders. There is a relentless drumbeat of engagement and a huge amount of engagement on a one-to-one basis, as was shown by the revealing telephone logs of those on the phone to the mayor of Manchester on Wednesday, which seems to suggest that he was much more in touch with central government than perhaps was apparent from his photo call. I reassure the Chamber that that spirit of partnership to get the local national partnership working is genuine, backed by substantial amounts of money—£1 billion has been pledged for local authorities to support the local lockdown policy—and it is in all our interests to get this to work.

If it does not work, and if there is not the political leadership and trust at a community basis in the efficacy of this approach, we have only one choice. I am looking at the SAGE table which I have in front of me, and it is really clear. These kinds of tactical interventions can knock a point or two off R. However, the only way of knocking an integer off R is a national, home-based lockdown. That is the alternative: that we all go back to March and April, to being at home, with shops closed and no travel. If this local lockdown policy does not work, that is where we will end up, and that is why we are committed to working as hard as we can.

I pay tribute to the large number of those involved in local government at all levels who have worked really hard in their communities to make it work. We are here to talk about Lancashire, and I pay tribute to those in Lancashire who have agreed to and in fact called for the lockdown there. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, are right on the exit strategy. It is absolutely critical that everyone understands what the exit strategy is, and our focus needs to be on that. But I can tell your Lordships that it takes a lot longer to get out than it does to get in. The ramp up is a lot steeper than the ramp down, and it is a big struggle that will need the support of individuals, households, streets, communities, local authorities, regions, mayors and the national resources to make it work. I very much appeal for collaboration in this matter and hope that we can move on from what the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, rightly characterised as a bit of an unseemly scramble this week.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton asked about shielding, which is incredibly important. We wrote to the shielding list on 13 October. That letter struck the balance between the need to protect those who are vulnerable and to take on board the feedback from many, including those in the Chamber today, that extreme shielding—locking up those who are vulnerable —does not support their mental health and will have massive consequences for them personally and for their communities. Therefore, the advice we have provided, in consultation with charities and groups representing those who are being shielded, strikes the right balance.

The noble Lord said something that I need to knock on the head in a big way, because it is a very destructive and counterproductive idea. He said that the fact that we are bringing in local lockdowns is itself proof of the failure of test and trace. That is simply not true. The only way to beat the virus is through the principal interaction of “hands, face, space”. You cannot break the virus’s spread entirely by isolating those who, retrospectively, you have identified as having the disease. That will never work, and we have never claimed it will work. SAGE and the Royal Society have been very clear that the impact of test and trace is complementary but it is not unique. The idea that local lockdowns are somehow solely and uniquely caused by the failure of test and trace takes the responsibility for beating the virus away from individuals, communities, employers, local authorities and the Government. With the greatest respect, I plead with the noble Lord to move away from that rhetoric, because it undermines the public communication of the importance of “hands, face, space”.

I return to my opening remarks. No one could take the development of these local lockdowns more seriously than the Government. It is done with huge regret. We can see perhaps the flattening of some numbers in some places that would indicate that local lockdowns are having an impact. It is too early to call at this stage. However, I live in hope that they will have the impact that we desire, and I live in fear that they will not.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Self-Isolation) (England) Regulations 2020

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Thursday 22nd October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

I, too, pay tribute from these Benches to the Minister’s work ethic in coming forward with these continuous regulations. I want to hit on that—and no one else in the debate so far really has done. On these Benches, we accept that in a public health crisis proportionate, evidence-based and reasonable restrictions on people are required to prevent the public health threat getting out of control. However, as many noble Lords have said, when you have an emergency pushing through legislation, some huge unintended consequences come from how the statutory instrument is written.

I have to challenge the Minister. At the beginning, he said that there was a need for emergency legislation. No, there is not. There is for certain things, but self-isolation during a public health threat is not something that you cannot foresee. This should have been proper, primary legislation. Many noble Lords have raised very detailed and reasonable questions through the debate about the time, the implication for children, and the implication in terms of the app or non-app. These points could have been teased out so that when these provisions gained Royal Assent and became law, many of these issues would have been ironed out.

This House has to stand up more each time the Government say that they need emergency legislation. I accept that some will be needed, but self-isolation during a public health crisis can be foreseen and legislated for. It has on a number of previous occasions, so I completely reject this as needing to be emergency legislation. You cannot police yourself out of a public health crisis by the approach of pushing through and accepting emergency legislation.

I want to raise a couple of things within the regulations which no one else has mentioned so far. Many noble Lords have mentioned issues, but there is one to do with enforcement. The regulations talk about “reasonable force”; I think my noble friend Lady Bowles mentioned this. But which people are allowed to carry out “reasonable force”? Part 3 of this instrument refers specifically, in Regulation 10(6), to

“(a) a constable … (b) a police community support officer”

and

“(c) a person designated by the Secretary of State for the purposes of this regulation”.

Over and above a constable and a police community support officer, what type of person would the Secretary of State designate? Sub-paragraph (d) refers to

“an officer designated by the relevant local authority for the purposes of this regulation”.

Is that any officer of a local authority? Could it be a director of finance, a refuse collector or a traffic warden?

The way that this is written is serious: the powers that the Government have given to a local authority—I declare my interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association—are far too wide. Whether the intent is reasonable or not, should my reading of the provision be that any local government officer can use reasonable force to take somebody off the street, if they refuse to go to a house and do not self-isolate? This is why emergency regulation has to stop. It is serious and goes wide.

I will move away and look at the bigger picture. These Benches do not believe, and nor do I, that we can police our way out of a public health threat and crisis. There needs to be far more carrot and less stick. The countries getting this right, such as Taiwan and Germany, are putting far more carrot into the system. In Germany, you get paid your wage to stay at home; you are seen to be doing it in the national interest. Many people will not go for a test and self-isolate, because you will self-isolate only those who have actually had the test and feel secure financially, with support to do so. Why can the Minister and the Government not look at a proper support package, so that people will do the right thing? Many people want to do the right thing, and many are doing so. Some want to do so but fear what it means for putting food on the table to feed their children. This is a serious issue and it needs to be addressed.

In Germany, there are Covid support teams which provide social, economic and mental health support. This is seen not as punitive but as a support mechanism, with regular knocking on doors for people who have self-isolated. I understand the Minister will say that local government has been given money, but it is paltry compared to what is needed to support properly somebody in isolation who does not have the means to provide things. As I say, the intention is correct, but these regulations raise many questions. I hope the Minister can answer them because self-isolation is an important part of dealing with the public health threat.

Covid-19: Information Sharing with Police Forces

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Tuesday 20th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, those are two very important and clear questions. However, I will have to take them back to the department and write to the noble Lord with very clear answers.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, despite what the Minister says, this memorandum of understanding has undermined some people’s trust in test and trace. The best way to deal with that is to shed the light of transparency on to what is actually in the MoU. Therefore, will the Government commit to publishing it?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I commit to publishing the memorandum of understanding; that is our intention. It has to be cleared of some officials’ names and redacted accordingly, and, when we have gone through that process, we will publish it. I will address the noble Lord’s central point, which is very reasonable, and I am glad he made it because he and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, are entirely right: there is a balance here between the principle of consent, which is how we went about implementing a great many of our measures, and the principle of effectiveness.

We are quite late now in the stage of the epidemic. I think it reasonable to demonstrate the seriousness of the principle of isolation, to make what isolation means crystal clear—and, therefore, in statute—and for the sanction of the law to apply to those people who do not have a responsible attitude and have behaved irresponsibly. It is not our intention to rack up a large number of prosecutions in this area, as it has not been in other areas. However, it is our intention to be clear and determined and to make this incredibly important part of our breaking the chain of transmission as effective as possible.