Fundamental Rights and the Rule of Law

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Thursday 25th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, with the caveat that the word “eater” on today’s list should read “greater”, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) (Lab)]

My Lords, as the Prime Minister has made clear, the UK is unequivocally committed to the European Convention on Human Rights. My right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor has said she will champion the rule of law at home and abroad, and my noble and learned friend the Attorney-General has described it as our lodestar. We are committed to rebuilding public trust in our political system by explaining how the rule of law serves us all and by promoting human rights as British values.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister—it is very nice to be able to say that—for that Answer. The Human Rights Act 1998 was a wonderful innovation: a modern bill of rights for this country. There was very little public education and information to go with it, and that has made it vulnerable to attack and misrepresentation, including from allegedly moderate Conservative leadership candidates, even today. Will the Government therefore now use this second opportunity and every resource available, digital and otherwise, in government, to put things right?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for that question. We consider that the UK’s three national human rights institutions, each with specific jurisdictions and functions, have a role in this. They are the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and the Scottish Human Rights Commission. Each has an “A” status, as rated by the UN, and a role in promoting human rights and awareness of human rights within the United Kingdom.

My noble friend’s original Question went wider than that, to include reinvigorating an appreciation of human rights. While the bodies I have just described have a statutory responsibility, there is nothing to stop central government doing that as well. As I think I pointed out in my initial Answer, both the Lord Chancellor and Attorney-General take this matter extremely seriously and see it as central to what they are doing.

My noble friend also referred to today’s press reports. Tom Tugendhat MP said in his pitch to be leader of the Conservative Party that he is ready to leave the ECHR. That is in marked contrast to what the leadership of the Government are saying.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that respect for human rights and the rule of law are key pillars of any free society, both at home and abroad? The Government will be aware of the brutal arrest and detention of Zimbabwe opposition leader Jameson Timba and 78 of his supporters, including a mother with a one year-old child. They have now been detained for 39 days in appalling conditions and denied their constitutional right to bail by a captured judiciary. Will the Minister make it clear that the new Government stand with all people standing up for their fundamental rights? Will he ask his ministerial colleagues to convey this message strongly to the Government of Zimbabwe?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. I am not sighted on that issue, but I will absolutely take up his suggestion that the relevant Ministers make clear their position regarding the importance of human rights in all parts of the world, and in the example he gave as well.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Lord will know that the House of Commons has accused the Chinese Communist Party of genocide in Xinjiang against the Uighur Muslim population. He will also know that the health of 76 year-old British national Jimmy Lai, who is being kept in a cell along with 1,800 other political prisoners, is deteriorating. What is the Government’s view on the continued presence of British judges dignifying the courts of Hong Kong?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. Hong Kong is a friend of ours, and this means we can have a frank exchange of views on human rights matters, which the Government continue to do. The noble Lord raised a specific question about Jimmy Lai and the other prisoners detained in Hong Kong. I will make sure that that is brought to the attention of my noble friend Lord Collins, who is directly responsible for these matters. If necessary, he will write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, have the Government been advised to establish whether it is compatible with the European convention to slap VAT on independent school fees? The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, does not believe it is.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The advice we have received is that it is within the law, and we have every intention of carrying it out as soon as is practicable.

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, Michael Forst, the UN special rapporteur on environmental defenders, recently displayed a profound ignorance of the rule of law when he suggested that the Government should intervene with the judiciary over the legitimate and necessary sentences passed on the M25 Just Stop Oil conspirators. Will the Minister take steps to educate the rapporteur about the application of the rule of law and the separation of powers in the United Kingdom?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, of course it is for judges to sentence as they see fit within sentencing guidelines—whichever case it is. It is important that peaceful protest is a vital part of our democratic society. It is a long-standing tradition in this country that people are free to demonstrate as they want, as long as they do it peacefully and within the law. But there is a balance to be struck. The rights of protestors must be weighed against the rights of others to carry out their daily activities without fear of intimidation or significant disruption. Peaceful protest does not include violent or threatening behaviour, and the police have the power to address this, as they have done.

[Baroness Whitaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I am delighted to congratulate my noble friend on his role. Will he recognise the role in human rights of non-statutory bodies such as the British Institute of Human Rights? I declare my interest as an advisory board member. It trains many public servants in how to implement equality and human rights legislation. Will he also note that there is a certain absence of teaching human rights in schools? We do not have a written constitution, like the Gettysburg Address, which can be easily communicated to young people, so we should do more to let them know what rights actually consist of.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I agree with my noble friend. There is an absence of teaching civic rights in our schools, and we could do more on this. Given the new focus on and enthusiasm for human rights, the various non-governmental bodies to which she has referred can play a greater role in promoting human rights in our society.

[Lord Carter of Haslemere (CB)]

My Lords, the Independent Human Rights Act review of 2021, led by Sir Peter Gross, recommended a programme of civic and constitutional education in our schools and universities. Does the Minister agree that this is essential to ensure that our human rights framework develops to meet the needs of society?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

Yes, I think I do agree with the noble Lord, Lord Carter. I spoke to Sir Peter Gross about this a number of years ago, and I will make essentially the same point that I have made in answering other questions from noble friends. There is a role for greater promotion within our schools, and that should be seriously looked at.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, in a speech to the Institute for Government on 10 July 2023, the then Attorney-General said:

“Laws should be accessible, intelligible, clear, and predictable”.


The last two questions have referred to the difficulty and lack of understanding of the UK’s constitutional arrangements. Our constitution, accreted by centuries of historical accident, fails to fit the criteria the Attorney-General set out. Are the Government prepared to set out a path towards a modern, democratic, functional written constitution?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I think the short answer to that is no. The accretion of laws the noble Baroness refers to is the common law system. She is shaking her head, but that is an accretion of laws over centuries. All the lawyers I have spoken to are very proud of it and think it a flexible system. Many times, it is a better way of dealing with changing circumstances than primary legislation. We want to keep that flexibility in our current arrangements.