Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]
Lord Jackson of Peterborough Excerpts(1 day, 23 hours ago)
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Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to have the opportunity to speak in Committee. I begin by apologising on behalf of my noble friend Lady Lawlor, who is detained on a train. I am somewhat at a disadvantage in reading her notes but, naturally, I support the sentiments contained in what would have been her speech. I also begin by putting on record my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Leong, for being prepared to debate and discuss these issues since Second Reading, his willingness to correspond with noble Lords on key issues, for holding a meeting with his officials, which was much appreciated, and substantially corresponding with my noble friend Lord Frost.
I am going to take the easy part first, which is to speak to my Amendment 33. I think it is apposite to look at the broader context of the Bill, bearing in mind the admonition that we should not repeat Second Reading remarks. All the amendments that I, my noble friend on the Front Bench and other noble Lords are moving today are in the context of the Bill, which is an extremely wide-ranging Bill that gives significant sweeping powers to Ministers. For instance, the UK in a Changing Europe document published just last week, its UK-EU Regulatory Divergence Tracker, makes the very pertinent point that the Bill
“is a very significant legislative change, with the government giving itself a broad power to proactively align with EU regulations … The exact range of regulations in scope is ambiguous, but it is evidently broad, with the bill’s explanatory notes referencing product safety, as well as emerging sectors like online marketplaces”.
With that in mind, and the skeleton nature of the legislation, as deprecated by my noble friend Lord Sharpe, we need to see my amendment in that context. Clause 2(3)(h) is the most egregious example of the potential issue at the heart of the Bill, which is that even existing provision in primary legislation may be replaced by provision in regulations. Many parts of the Bill, particularly in Clauses 1 and 2, are unfettered by any requirement for consultation, for criteria to be met or for meaningful preconditions to be satisfied. Indeed, the Bill clearly cuts across the guidance for departments that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee provided in its report of 15 October. My noble friend referred earlier to skeleton legislation, as well as the excoriating reports of the DPRRC and the Constitution Committee.
I remind noble Lords that this subsection relates to categories of
“persons on whom product regulations may impose product requirements”—
with all the caveats that we must accept that secondary legislation cannot, by convention, be amended. That leads us to a broader problem with the Bill in many clauses, particularly this one, which is that we have a double whammy. In the use of ministerial fiat, there is in effect no proper scrutiny in our Parliament and no proper oversight, because statutory instruments are very unlikely to be amended. Therefore, given that we have no fora in which to look at the details of the regulatory regime and the statutory instruments that will arise from the Bill—we no longer have a European Scrutiny Committee in the other place and we do not have a similar body in this House; we have a European Affairs Committee, which has a much wider remit—not only will we not be able to exercise that proper scrutiny but, having left the European Union, should we decide to shadow or dynamically align with regulations we will have no input on their effect but will effectively be cutting and pasting them into our domestic legislation.
In effect, we will have no mechanisms for scrutiny should we agree these clauses. We do not know the methodology by which a value judgment is made on the efficacy of any of these regulations on alignment. We have no measurement of criteria and no way to monitor or review the regulations at present, because there is no effective consultation process at the front end. For those reasons, I urge the Minister to look carefully at my amendment. It is not far reaching; it would specifically removes paragraph (h).
With that in mind, and for reasons of time, I am not particularly predisposed to go into detail on my noble friend Lady Lawlor’s amendments, other than to say that her Amendment 8 seems extremely sensible. Given the nature of the Bill and the wide-ranging powers that Ministers are seeking to exercise, potentially across vast swathes of our economy, a de facto sunset clause, after a modest period, would test the effects of a government intervention in terms of its environmental and economic impact, and particularly—regarding what I said earlier—its political and constitutional impact. It is an eminently sensible and straightforward amendment, and I would be surprised if such a measure were arbitrarily repudiated by the Minister and the Government.
Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
I thank noble Lords for their forbearance as I was rudely interrupted by democracy.
I was somewhat remiss earlier for not also congratulating my noble friend on his position as Front-Bench spokesman for our party, so I welcome him, and I hope he will forgive me for that.
As I was saying, I believe that the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lady Lawlor should receive the support of all sides of the Committee because it seeks to ensure that there is proper, informed parliamentary scrutiny and approval in respect of Clause 1, which is a very wide-ranging clause; other noble Lords will no doubt wish to enunciate those issues later on. As the clock is against us, I will just finish by observing that I wholly support Amendment 128 in this group, tabled by my noble friend Lord Frost, which I have signed, and Amendments 80 and 81 on metrology and pints, tabled by my noble friend Lord Sharpe.
I will just finish briefly on Amendments 40 and 41 tabled by my noble friend Lady Lawlor. Again, these go to the heart of the necessity to see the Bill, and particularly Clauses 1 and 2, within the broader context of a quite seismic shift of government policy. Indeed, the think tank UK in a Changing Europe, in its press release last week launching the latest quarter 3 regulatory divergence tracker, makes the quite bold claim, which I think is correct, that this Government are seeking a much closer relationship with the European Union by increased convergence and reducing any capacity for divergence, either deliberately or as a sin of omission. Whether you think that is right or not, that issue has to be looked at in detail by the legislature—both the other place and your Lordships’ House. On that basis, I support my noble friend Lady Lawlor’s amendment, which would insert “constitutional” into the Bill, because of the wider governance and constitutional issues arising from a Bill that some have described as Chequers 2.0 in legislative form—I know that some of my noble friends might not agree with that.
Finally, Amendment 41 would enable a review of the impact and effects of Clause 2 and the powers therein to be laid before Parliament, focusing specifically on how the decisions made by Ministers and the regulations laid have impacted business and commerce in this country and trade across the world, particularly with the European Union.
On that basis, I ask the Minister to look kindly on supporting those amendments. None of them is radical and none of them seeks to undermine the integral nature of what the Bill is hoping to achieve, but they are sensible additions that will hopefully improve the Bill in the course of its passage through this House and the other place.
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)
My Lords, I welcome this landmark Bill, and I welcome my noble friend the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, to their Front-Bench positions. I firmly believe that the Bill protects consumer rights. However, I declare an interest as a member of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which scrutinises statutory instruments. In that respect, I refer to the amendment in the names of my noble friend Lady Crawley, the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, and the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, which would require the Secretary of State to conduct appropriate consultation on draft regulations under the Act.
It is vital that we set out as we mean to go on. One criticism that our committee had of many of the statutory instruments is the lack of proper consultation, as well as inadequate memorandums and impact assessments. This amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Crawley is timely, and I urge my noble friends on the Front Bench to accept it. More effective scrutiny processes are required in legislation to ensure that the policy decisions made with the powers set out in the Bill can be effectively scrutinised as products and marketplaces evolve, particularly those that will evolve online. It is important that consumers are totally protected.
The noble Lord, Lord Jackson, referred to relationships with the EU. I hope that the Government are successful in resetting that relationship and that there is a closer relationship with the EU, because it is important not only for trade but for society and economic growth—and it is good for wider relations in this part of our global world.
Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
Is the noble Lord aware of the letter dated 28 October from the Minister, Justin Madders, of the other place, to the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, the chairman of the DPRRC, on these specific issues? It says:
“We recognise the Committee’s concerns that the powers in the Bill to amend or repeal primary legislation may appear as though we are intending to replace existing primary legislation with secondary legislation and accept that we should have given more provenance to the fact that our intentions are limited and specific and the powers in the Bill are limited accordingly”.
Does the noble Lord not think it unprecedented for a Minister to write about a Bill that is before this House?
Lord Fox (LD)
I am not a student of parliamentary history, so I do not know if it is an unprecedented letter, but that was a helpful intervention, and I thank the noble Lord for that.
Lord Leong (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for that. If it helps, I have gone through some of our 150-odd existing product safety regulations—not all of them—and their technical nature includes scientific calculation and all kinds of other technical input. Are we saying that we want this in every instance of primary legislation? I think not. If noble Lords think that we should have every technical aspect in all primary legislation, we need to have a different debate entirely, but for this, for technical reasons, we need delegated legislation to ensure that we update the regulations.
Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
I do not want to labour the point, but it is either feast or famine. We are being told by the Government that we cannot legislate everything to the nth degree, so we should just trust them on the secondary legislation—the permissive delegated legislation and statutory instruments. But then, with the paragraph that is the subject of my amendment, we are going to the nth degree of granularity and technical finesse while not actually, as it happens, defining what “activities” mean. Activities could mean looking at a product, by which you would therefore be caught by the regulations.
I gently say to the Minister that the substantive clause is not undermined by the removal of this paragraph, and he should seriously think about that.
Lord Leong (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for that. I shall take it away and speak to officials about this, but the purpose of the Bill is not to be too prescriptive, so that we cover most of the activities that can be described by various stages of production.
I want to conclude, if I may. I hope that I have been able to provide reassurance on all these matters and have assured noble Lords that the Government have carefully considered the importance of parliamentary scrutiny and sought to strike a careful balance. I therefore respectfully ask that the amendment is withdrawn.
Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, and my noble friend’s amendment but I want to press the Minister briefly, because one of the key rationales for Clause 1 is to improve safety dynamically. I think we would all agree with that. Obviously, mention is made of the toy safety regime in the United Kingdom and in the European Union, as well as lithium batteries, artificial intelligence et cetera.
May I press the Minister on a genuine question? I have not found a rationale for why the only Schedule to the Bill excludes so many products not covered by the Bill’s potential regulations. It excludes:
“Plants, fruit and fungi … Feeding stuff”,
food generally and animal by-products, aircraft, military equipment and “Medicines and medical devices”. Maybe the Minister could say a little about which value judgments and what empirical data have been used to exclude those products from consideration in the Bill, perhaps seen through the prism of safety.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
If the noble Lord will let me explain, Clauses 1 and 11 grant powers to make regulations relating to product safety for a range of purposes, general or specific. The Government have set out in their response to the product safety review our intention in the months ahead to begin a process of sector reviews. They will consider whether any changes are needed to our existing regulation of higher-risk products to reflect modern challenges, such as those that the noble Lord has pointed out in two speeches this afternoon. We will also consider whether updates to the GPSR are necessary to ensure that cross-cutting and emerging risks are properly addressed, particularly where products fall outside current sector-specific rules.
Furthermore, in December 2022, the Office for Product Safety & Standards developed a product safety risk assessment methodology for GB regulators to use with non-compliant products. The methodology requires consideration of the tolerability of the risk identified. Where a risk is intolerable, a regulator can act robustly in relation to risks that may have a low possibility of occurring, but where, if they did, the outcome would be disastrous. A noteworthy example is the effort made by the Office for Product Safety & Standards to protect young people from the dangers of ingesting small, powerful magnets.
In Amendment 95 the noble Lord, Lord Fox, makes the sensible point that safe disposal can be a key part of protecting consumers and businesses. Clause 1(5) makes clear that regulations can cover safe disposal of products. We will consider whether particular products need specific regulation in this area on a case-by-case basis.
On the disposal of batteries specifically, the Government are committed to cracking down on waste as we move toward a circular economy. We shall have a discussion on the circular economy—I was going to say “in a few minutes”, but that might be a little hopeful. We are reviewing and propose to consult on reforms to UK batteries regulation before setting out our next steps.
Finally, regarding the question from the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, on the Schedule to the Bill, the things mentioned in the exclusions are covered by separate legislation. It is as simple as that.
Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
I am grateful for the Minister’s indulgence; I have a straightforward question regarding Amendment 7 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Foster. The Minister has answered it thoroughly but I still do not understand. What else would the Government be doing, in looking at the efficacy of product safety, that is not already in the amendment? Surely the noble Lord’s amendment merely formalises actions with regard to product safety that the Government themselves would do in analysing what they need to do to protect consumers. I cannot understand the Minister’s resistance to at least being a bit more emollient towards what seems to me quite a sensible amendment.
Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
My Lords, I rise to support the amendment in my name and primarily that of my noble friend Lord Frost, particularly Amendment 4. It would not be fruitful to relitigate the Brexit wars, and certainly, those of us who have tabled these amendments do not wish to do so. We are looking at this Bill and its proposals. It is notable to remember that it is not the Government who are moving Amendment 17 and its consequent later amendment, but other noble Lords.
I shall just specifically talk about the amendment to Clause 1(2). It is actually quite a loose and opaque concept to talk about tabling an amendment to the Bill which talks about mitigating or reducing the “environmental impact of products”, because there is quite a degree of confusion about that specific phrase. There is also a significant question as to why there is a specific carve-out for this in the Bill. My noble friend Lord Frost raised this issue specifically with the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Leong, in his letter of 16 October, and asked why it was necessary to have a separate provision to deal with this. My concern about this clause is that there is the prospect, if it remains in the Bill, not only that we may replicate very narrowly drawn product safety regulations as regards the environment, but that, due to mission creep, it can develop a lot of other particular areas. That may be music to the ears of the noble Baroness who represents the Greens, but it may extend to a supply chain’s due diligence, or to vehicle standards, artificial intelligence or deforestation. Those are all very wide areas where there would be a significant impact from what looks like a pretty innocuous clause. Therefore, I would like the Minister to address that particular issue, because it is very important.
To go back to the clause that is referenced in the amendment from my noble friend Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate and the noble Lord, Lord Russell, I am not sure that they have been witnessing the same situation with the regulatory regime and this Labour Government since 4 July. We are already seeing de facto alignment. We are seeing alignment on a common charger for electrical devices, the vote to leave the energy charter treaty and rules on organic pet food. We are seeing delayed divergence on Section 6 of the retained EU law Act, which is about paying due regard to European Court of Justice decisions vis-à-vis the UK courts; recognition of CE-marked construction products; the suspension of mandatory recycling labels; changes and delays to the implementation of the Windsor Framework; delays to the border target operating model; regulation on deforestation-free products delayed; and entry and exit schemes delayed.
The idea that this Government are presiding over a mass large-scale divergence is completely not the case. For a speech that was meant to take the political heat out of the debate, I think it was quite a political speech by the noble Lord, partly relitigating the long battles over Brexit we had. I do not think it is an ignoble aim for us, in laying these amendments in Committee, to make a point about the geopolitical changes in the United States with the election of President-elect Trump and the focus on deregulation and fewer and more flexible regulations. There are economic difficulties in the European Union, particularly in Germany, which has had some significant encumbrances in terms of all manner of economic data. To tie our regulatory regime to just one market—the European Union, where we have no control, no say and no voice—in a Bill in which there are huge numbers of Henry VIII and discretionary powers to be exercised by Ministers that are effectively unamendable is a risk. That is the risk, and it is the risk of this amendment.
The fundamental flaw of this amendment is that it is asymmetrical and unbalanced. My noble friend Lord Kirkhope used the word balanced. I do not think it is balanced; it is incongruous because there is an inherent presumption—a requirement in this amendment —for us to accept dynamic alignment. At least the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, was honest that it is dynamic alignment. It is Chequers 2.0. In this amendment, we are being asked to support Chequers enunciated in primary legislation. I believe that is wrong.
The reason I think that there is a flaw and that it is incongruous is that if noble Lords look at Amendment 17, in subsection (3) of the proposed new clause there is a requirement to lay a statement before Parliament within 14 days about why a decision not to replicate EU law under proposed new subsection (2) is necessary. Funnily enough, there is not a similar requirement to lay a statement if it is decided to diverge from European Union regulations. I say to my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Russell, that the amendment would have been a lot stronger and a lot more robust to criticism by this side and perhaps even Ministers if that had been in the amendment. It is not, and for that reason it is a regrettable amendment. It seeks to tie us to a shrinking market which, by dollar denomination, will be about 14% of world trade within the next 10 or 12 years. That is not something we can put in the Bill. For that reason, I will not support it.
Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)
I shall quickly respond to the noble Lord. One of the reasons why I asked the Minister for some detail about the breadth and depth of the consultation his department has had with business was to find out what business really thinks. I would say, in riposte to the noble Lord, that the key thing that should drive decisions on whether we align with the European Union or any other jurisdiction should primarily be what business is telling the Government. Businesses have a far better idea of the economic state, presently and potentially, of the markets they do business with. In fact, they have a much better idea than either Ministers or civil servants. From my point of view of trying to speak on behalf of business, listening to them on what they think should be the priority would seem the sensible thing to do.
Lord Fox (LD)
As noble Lords can probably imagine, I have been looking forward to this group for ages, and I thank noble Lords for not disappointing. I put my name to Amendments 17 and 127 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Russell, and tabled my own Amendment 94. I think the valedictory remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, about leaving this Bill may have been premature because Amendment 16, which is group 9, explicitly deals with the REACH issue, which I know he is so passionate about. I would like him to join me in probing the REACH elements of this, so I hope he can put off his exit from the Bill.
The Prime Minister, the Chancellor and others have stated that they wish to re-engage with our largest market, which is the EU. Their aim, and our aim on these Benches, is to remove friction to make life easier for British business. Thereby costs will be kept to a minimum, markets will be more accessible and growth, which we all agree is vital for our future, can be more easily achieved. I was delighted today when the Treasury spokesperson, the noble Lord, Lord Livermore, endorsed the role of this Bill in helping the Government make those moves to re-engage with the EU. It was reassuring that he sees the importance of this Bill in that process. That is a very good mark to put on what we are doing.
We heard some excellent speeches from the noble Lords, Lord Russell, Lord Browne and Lord Kirkhope, in favour of the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Russell. The UK Government are introducing legislation to guide the future regulation of standards for thousands of products when they are sold in the UK market. It should go without saying that creating different standards for UK businesses hoping to sell in both the UK and the EU works counter to this. Consistent standards that apply across both markets will give business the ability and certainty to sell in both those markets.
Never mind the dolphins. The noble Lord, Lord Frost, brought up the issue of tethered bottle tops. As far as I am aware, there is no regulation in this country to require tethered bottle tops. The reason we have them is because business knows how costly it would be to have two forms of a drink being sold in one market here and one market there. Business understands, even if some noble Lords do not, the true cost of having two different regulations. When it can do without them, it does, and the one it chooses is that of the biggest market, which is very rarely in the United Kingdom.
This legislation is an opportunity for the Government, if they move in the right direction, to reduce the red tape and the bureaucracy that the current version of Brexit has created for British business. We should be under no illusion that Brexit has made it much harder for businesses to export into the European Union.
The wording of this amendment does not bind the hands of Government. As noble Lords have observed, there is absolutely the opportunity to diverge and move away from the regulations in the European Union, if that is to the advantage of the United Kingdom. This is a common-sense amendment that provides regulatory certainty for UK businesses by requiring a default of alignment with EU regulations and a process for parliamentary scrutiny, if or when Ministers determine that divergence from such regulation would be in the best interests of the UK. That is what business tells us it wants—and I hope that the questions that the noble Lord, Lord Russell, asked will continue with that. It also seems to be what the public wants. A poll published today in the i newspaper says that when people were asked where was more important to Britain economically, 57% opted for Europe, with 34% opting for the US, for example. There are lots of good reasons for the Government to support these amendments, because they provide a foundation for economic growth by ensuring that businesses can plan and invest with confidence about where the regulatory regime is going and what kind of regulations are going to apply in the United Kingdom.
Before I come very briefly to Amendment 94, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Browne, I could not help but be lured into addressing some of the comments made by the noble Lords seated just behind me. The comments of the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, were very interesting. His comments about the environment and how appropriate it is to take into consideration things such as deforestation were interesting, and I shall be interested to see whether the Opposition Front Bench endorse the comments that he made, or whether they will distance themselves from them—because I think that is quite important.
Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
For someone who is usually very astute, who listens to my views and is very kind in saying that they are interesting, I think that the noble Lord may have got the proverbial wrong end of the stick. I was not making a value judgment on whether it was appropriate to put environmental standards in this Bill. The substantive kernel of my comments was that it was unclear as to what the definition of environmental standards was—it was not saying that they were good or bad for things such as deforestation.
Lord Fox (LD)
I may have misunderstood—I shall certainly look at Hansard afterwards. But it would be useful for the Opposition Front Bench to explain where they sit in that regard.
I always listen to the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, carefully, but I was confused on a couple of issues that she used as examples. The first example was a very long discussion of digital regulation in the European Union—but digital regulation is not a part of this Bill. The second example was the CPTPP, which we all know is not designed to have mutually enforced standards—standards are not a part of the CPTPP, so I am not sure how this Bill reflects on that at all. This is probably a conversation that we can have outwith this debate, because I am speaking to the point—the point being that we can have trade deals with all sorts of places, multilateral and bilateral, with or without taking into consideration alignment with the EU. However, we cannot have trade in the EU if we do not have the right regulations. That is the point on which I wanted to end, in that regard.
I turn briefly to Amendment 94, which is simply a probing amendment to understand how the Government will monitor and approach the developing international standards. To some extent we have heard about issues around whether we should adopt those standards, but we should certainly understand them—that is my thing—and we should know what standards are governing the products that are coming into our country and how they relate to our standards. Clearly, we are importing a lot of things from a lot of places that are not in the EU, from around the world, and we really need to understand under what level of governance those international standards are maintaining the sorts of things that we care about within product regulation.
To close, the noble Lord, Lord Russell, has done this Committee a great service in tabling his amendments; I am very pleased to be one of their co-signatories.