Crime and Policing Bill

Lord Jackson of Peterborough Excerpts

Monday 2nd February 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

I entirely understand and accept that the police will investigate many alleged possible offences in highly sensitive circumstances, but the issue that arises for Parliament, and your Lordships’ House in particular today, is whether we should adopt special criteria where the sensitivity and the distress relate to a woman who has recently lost the child that she is carrying. It is very difficult, in my view—I am obviously not an expert on this; women in the Committee will have a stronger view than I do—but I can understand the real, particular and damaging concern that arises where a woman who has carried her child for however many months loses that child and is then the subject of a criminal investigation. It is difficult to imagine anything that is more distressing to the woman concerned in those circumstances. The Committee therefore has to take a view on this. My current view—

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very reasonable case, but is it not really an issue of proportionality and balance? He talks about the level of distress but did not really answer the points made by my noble friends Lady Lawlor and Lady Berridge. The fact is that this has affected approximately 100 women in terms of criminal investigations, as against 1.5 million abortions since 2020. That is an important point to make in terms of informing the argument that he is making.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

The Committee will take its own view on whether I have answered the questions that have been put to me. I do not think that a reference to 1.5 million abortions really takes the argument any further forward.

I recognise the difficulties of this, and each Member of the Committee will have their own view, but my current view is that the nature of the investigations, the distress that they cause and the unlikelihood that they would lead to a prosecution is the paramount consideration. I therefore see great force in Clause 191.

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[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD)]

My Lords, I added my name to Amendment 461J, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, spoke so eloquently. It addresses the pardoning of women who have already been criminalised. When Clause 191 becomes law, I look forward to this amendment being part of it because, as your Lordships all know, having a criminal record precludes you from some jobs and from getting visas to some countries. It is a very serious thing, and this small amendment is well worth while.

The overwhelming support from the professional bodies must weigh heavily on your Lordships, even those who are doubtful about Clause 191. I am grateful to those in the Committee who have experience in this field. It struck me that if the Royal College of Nursing, the Royal College of Midwives, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, and the Royal College of General Practitioners are all behind, who are we to raise many of these issues? That is not to say we should not debate the important points. However, where those involved in delivering healthcare for women are so overwhelmingly supportive, this seems to me to be the right course.

The noble Lord, Lord Bailey of Paddington, asked about surveys. Well, I have one from YouGov that cites 70% of the public as saying that women should not face criminal prosecutions for having abortions outside the set rules.

The noble Baroness, Lady Monckton, made the comment: what is the role of this House? Well, the role of this House, which I am glad to say it is undertaking very well this evening, is, as we know, not to overturn the will of the Commons, where the vote was 379 to 137.

There are many amendments in this first group that seem innocuous. We debated some of them a while ago—for example, the requirement to keep statistics—in the Bill by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan. But they are not innocuous; they are really just a back door into undermining the very idea of Clause 191.

My last point is about an issue addressed by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Lincoln. I have understood that decriminalisation does not encourage more, or later, abortion. In the countries that have practised it, such as Canada and New Zealand, it has not been the case that it has encouraged more or later abortion. Other noble Lords have eloquently made the point that abortion is not something that you, as a woman, just choose lightly. I have not had an abortion myself; I have had only a miscarriage, and I happily have two children besides, but that was enough to tell me that you would not lightly go and choose this. Getting rid of Clause 191 is an essential part of moving us into the 21st century and away from the very Victorian attitude that has prevailed until now.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, before I discuss the substance of the amendments in this group, including my Amendment 461F, I want to make a brief observation. In my experience, both in the other place and as a Member of your Lordships’ House for a little over three years, the issues we are considering today in this group of amendments and the two that follow have become increasingly difficult to discuss openly. By that, I mean that we seldom consider the merits of the arguments put forward in good faith and instead fall back on principled objections. I regret that abortion has become such a binary and closed-off debate in this country. One’s views on the subject are put into a box: compassionate or unfeeling; morally progressive or morally regressive; forward-looking or Victorian. I am sure that noble Lords will agree that this serves nobody well, whether in this place in facilitating constructive and reasoned debate, and thereby serving the watching public well or, perhaps more importantly, in promoting the safety and well-being of women and unborn children.

There are, I would hope, things that we can agree on. Statistics released by the Department of Health and Social Care on 15 January show the highest number of abortions ever recorded in England and Wales, with 278,740 taking place in 2023—a 10% increase on the previous year. When added to figures from Scotland and Northern Ireland, this amounts to nearly 300,000 abortions across the UK in 2023. Nearly one in three of all pregnancies ended in abortion in 2023.

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[Baroness Hazarika (Lab)]

I think we can all agree on the fact that there are a certain number of people in this Committee who have never been pregnant and never had to go through this. That does not mean that everybody else does not get to have an opinion on it, but there will be a lot of young women looking at this debate because the consequences of this debate will be very profound. That was the point I was making.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

I have never committed murder or been a hangman, but I can take a view on capital punishment from a moral view. To disaggregate people and their right or obligation to comment on the debate is not helpful. I caveat that by saying I have an awful lot of respect for how eloquently the noble Baroness put her case.

As I said at Second Reading, this will harm women, increase the number of late-term abortions and dehumanise children in the womb in a way I find chilling. But that has not been reflected on in the way that this has come to form part of the Bill.

During the debate on Report in the other place, which lasted a little over two hours in total, three new clauses were debated: proposed new Clause 1, which is now Clause 191; proposed new Clause 20, which proposed an even more extreme form of decriminalisation than that which we are considering today; and proposed new Clause 106, which I am delighted to see tabled again as Amendment 460 in the name of my noble friend Lady Stroud, which, needless to say, I strongly support.

In fact, saying that there were two hours of debate on such a significant proposal is perhaps overly generous. Sandwiched between the remarks of the three Members moving the proposed new clauses and the responses of the Front Benches, just 46 minutes were given over to speeches from Back-Bench MPs. The point is that there has been a scandalous lack of consideration of this change in our law and its impact.

I accept that some aspects of abortion law are an issue of conscience, but that is not a “get out of jail free” card for failure to undertake any form of due diligence, particularly on proposals that many of us regard as potentially dangerous. There is no impact assessment, there has been no pre-legislative scrutiny and there has been no consultation of any kind. I hope that the Minister, in responding to this group, addresses those issues.

I strongly support the noble Baroness, Lady Monckton, in her proposal to remove Clause 191 from the Bill and will do so again on Report. However, the danger of Clause 191 is compounded by the continuation of the pandemic hangover policy of pills by post, which provides for easy access to abortion pills without sufficient checks. I am afraid I simply cannot understand the view that holds that Clause 191 is pro-women. In combination with the ongoing availability of pills by post, it instead seems to me to offer the worst of both worlds. It opens the gates for overly expeditious access to less-than-safe care.

As the Member for Reigate in the other place has said:

“Being pro-choice should not mean supporting fewer checks and worse care for women seeking an abortion. Indeed, this is an issue where both sides of the abortion debate ought to eschew tribalism and unite in support of common-sense measures that safeguard women”.


I hope that we can rise above tribalism on this issue and find some common ground.

There are amendments in this group which I strongly support, including Amendments 455 and 459, but I will move on to my own Amendment 461F. While I would pick out other excellent amendments from this group, in the interests of time I will speak to my amendment particularly. My amendment would require the Secretary of State to publish guidance on the investigation of offences relating to abortion and infanticide within 12 months of the commencement of Clause 191. The amendment is concerned with providing clarity and clear protocols to distinguish between what would be a decriminalised self-induced abortion and a criminal act of infanticide or child destruction.

My amendment is also designed to reassure proponents of Clause 191, including some who advise concern about possible intimidation or distress caused to a woman who may have experienced a miscarriage or stillbirth. I recognise those concerns. Women facing miscarriage, stillbirth or medical crisis deserve care, dignity and compassion and nothing in my amendment would change that. However, I point to the other way around and suggest that the absence of clear guidance is what can produce overreach and inconsistency. When professionals are left uncertain about the law and about thresholds, practice understandably becomes variable. Some cases may be mishandled—

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

I am puzzled by something that the noble Lord has said and perhaps he would like to clarify. I am not quite sure how jailing women is pro-women.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

If the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, will forgive me, I did not quite hear the last part of her question.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

The noble Lord has talked about being pro-women and I would like him to explain to the Committee why jailing women is pro-women.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

The simple point is that if Clause 191 is incorporated into the Bill, we will have a situation where many more women are under threat of coercion and many more women will face complications. Even the incomplete and substandard figures produced by the Department of Health on abortion in 2023 show that, at over 20 weeks’ gestation, 60.3% of women per 100,000 experienced complications arising from abortion in all clinical settings. That phenomenon will continue and will get worse. I hope that that is sufficient for the noble Baroness.

My amendment is directed towards striking an appropriate balance by providing legal certainty that would prevent overzealous investigation, weighed against the need to protect children. By defining clear thresholds for investigation, we protect vulnerable women while maintaining a shield for infants born alive. Clause 191 fundamentally changes our legal landscape and it is appropriate and reasonable to require updated public consultative guidance so that police and prosecutors understand what remains investigable, what standards apply and how to act lawfully and consistently.

In conclusion, if Parliament insists on decriminalising the woman’s role in procuring her own abortion, it has a profound moral duty to ensure that the law can still protect the infant the moment it leaves the womb. Amendment 461F is a measured attempt to ensure this and arguably the bare minimum in terms of responsible lawmaking. I urge noble Lords to support my amendment and others in this group, which seek to protect women and the most vulnerable lives among us. I urge Ministers to consider my Amendment 461F carefully as the Bill moves to Report.

[Baroness Gerada (CB)]

My Lords, until recently I was head of the Royal College of GPs. Our college is fully in favour of decriminalisation of abortion. As Professor Hawthorne said:

“No woman should face prosecution under antiquated laws that were created before women were even allowed to vote. This change in the law is a vital piece of protection for the reproductive and health rights of women”.


I would like to pick up a few issues. I have been fortunate enough to work in the NHS, in a legal state in terms of abortion, which has been absolutely fabulous, because I have seen many young women and girls and older women coming and needing terminations of pregnancy and I have guided them through it. I want to talk about a few things—for a start, telemedicine and “medicines by post” and the assumption that this is somehow a bad thing. I would like to turn it all round and say that this is a patient-centric initiative. Imagine having to travel far and to have to go past your abusive husband or abusive partner to say where you have been all day. This is humane and patient-centric and about 50% of women choose this option.

It does not mean that they do not get a proper assessment. Many people are assuming yet again that it is a sort of tick box. It is an hour-long consultation with pre- and post-termination counselling and at any point the woman can be seen face to face. I have also been hearing an assumption that it is an unsafe procedure. I think that I heard—I may have misheard—that one in 17 women end up having complications from having had a medical termination. That is not the figures from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. It says that, under 10 weeks, one in 1,000 women have heavy bleeds and at, over 20 weeks, four in 1,000 do. Those women are in hospital. Clearly it is very different. It is nothing like one in 17. You also have to compare that—we have the comparator—with women who miscarry at home without having an abortion, who probably end up in hospital, as I did twice as a young woman when I had miscarriages. I also want to pick up the issue that somehow telemedicine is a process without any legal requirements. Of course it has legal requirements. It is currently, and will continue to be, regulated under the abortion law. What we are doing is decriminalising it.

I then want to talk about foeticide or foetal sex selection. Foetal sex can be determined as early as 10 weeks and many women choose, for one reason or another, to know the sex of their child. Both my daughters-in-law—I was going say my sons but, of course, for the purpose of this, boys cannot become pregnant—chose to determine the sex of their child, just as many people do. It is perfectly legal to determine the sex of your child—at the 20-week scan, anyway, you can choose to determine the sex. Women can then choose to have a legal termination if they so wish, though I am struck by the noble Lord, Lord Winston, saying that there are legal implications. This is conflating the issue of decriminalisation and sex selection. I personally am against sex selection, but it is not part of this argument about decriminalisation.

I would also just like to address the under-16s and compulsory safeguarding assessments under what I assume would be a multi-agency assessment, including the police and social workers. As the law stands, women under 16 can obtain an abortion and obtain sexual health advice and contraception without safeguarding implications—clearly noble Lords all know about Gillick competence and Fraser guidelines. This would be a retrograde step. These young girls would not come to see us. They would probably end up like one patient who I saw very late in pregnancy. She presented with a rash on her abdomen, which is the rash with stretch marks; she was 32-weeks pregnant. She was so terrified—and this was before the law changed—of admitting that she had had unprotected sex and had not had her period. Compulsory safeguarding is a retrograde step and has nothing to do with this decriminalisation, which I fully support.