Crime and Policing Bill

Lord Jackson of Peterborough Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 2nd February 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Committee may be pleased to know that I plan to be comparatively brief.

Before the dinner break, the noble Baroness, Lady Maclean, asked how many people in your Lordships’ House have had abortions. Of course I cannot answer that question, but it is worth putting on the record the fact that one in three British women will have an abortion during their reproductive life. That is the reality for very many women in the UK today. They will need this reproductive healthcare.

I will not go over what has been said before, but I want to respond to some of the things that have already been said that need a response, and I will raise a point that has not been raised but which is important for contextualising our debate. It relates to a comment made by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, about why we have seen an increase in investigations into what are often entirely natural miscarriages and late-term apparent or possible abortions. We have not discussed how the global political context has changed. There is an extremely well-funded global campaign around the world that is seeking to reduce women’s reproductive rights. For context on that, I went to the website of the Organization of American Historians and read an article by the historian Jennifer L Holland. She notes that,

“the antiabortion movement, in its many iterations, has radically transformed Americans’ ideas about women’s bodies, reproduction, feminist politics, and of course, fetal life. In the two centuries the movement has existed, its constituencies, tactics, and tools have all changed. But what has remained is the effect this movement has had on women’s lives”.

She adds that the movement

“transformed ideas as it also restricted the … ability of American women to access reproductive healthcare”.

The article goes on to note that, until around the 1840s, having an abortion in America was an unexceptional and “largely stigma-free” practice. That was because it had inherited the law from the UK that regarded anything before quickening as not being an issue; that is usually regarded as four to six months of gestation.

There is a reason why the law that we keep referring back to is from the 1860s. That was when we started to see a global movement, particularly an American-driven movement, which is now here in the UK, through very well-funded organisations and with millions of pounds coming from the US, through the huge power of social media, having an impact on whether people will think about these issues—whether they are a medical practitioner, police officer, et cetera. When we look at why we have seen an increase, we really have to consider the framework in which this debate is being conducted.

A long time ago now, the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, who is not in his place, said that

“all investigations in this matter should be conducted with great sensitivity”.

What has become clear from our debate is just how invasive and damaging investigations are. I will not go through the cases that have been rehearsed here today. There have been GCSE students who have had their phones taken away and their lives totally disrupted—it is absolute chaos. That is the reality. I do not think it is possible to do this sensitively.

I will briefly address the amendments that seek to attack—and we have heard a concerted attack on it today—telemedicine. I link the remarks of the noble Baronesses, Lady Gerada and Lady Fox, who both, in very different tones, perhaps, made it very clear that this has been an extremely successful delivery of healthcare. This is a safe and convenient way that has seen the average gestation at treatment for abortion fall substantially, with more than half of all abortions now taking place before seven weeks’ gestation.

If we were to stop telemedicine, as quite a number of noble Lords have called for, there would be a drastic increase in waiting times, women would have to travel long distances for care—even at the earliest gestations—and many women would be driven to buying pills online through legal, quasi-legal or simply illegal sources because of the lack of availability of that provision.

This brings me to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, who spoke about the number of abortions occurring in the UK. I hope the noble Lord and, indeed, the entire Committee would agree that that figure is a reflection of the inadequacy of contraceptive provision in the UK. I hope we can all agree that we want better contraceptive provision and therefore that would be a way to reduce the number of abortions.

I note that a study from BPAS found that nearly half of women found it difficult to access contraception because of long wait times, difficulty in securing appointments, and financial hurdles when they went to secure their preferred method of abortion.

I have two more brief points—

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

I hear what the noble Baroness is saying. Is she aware that the World Health Organization defines a safe abortion as

“meaning that they are carried out using a method recommended by WHO, appropriate to the gestational age, and by someone with the necessary skills”,

and that recommendation 30 in its safe abortion guide states that medical abortion at 12 weeks or greater should be managed only by doctors in a healthcare setting—in other words, a self-managed medical abortion from 12 weeks’ gestation is deemed to be “unsafe” by the WHO?

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

The noble Lord has very powerfully made the case for ensuring that we are able to make that provision as early as possible.

I particularly want to address one amendment that we have only really heard the presenter address. Amendment 461B from the noble Lord, Lord Bailey, would subject any female accessing legal abortion under the age of 16 to a mandatory investigation by police and child protection agencies. It is worth stressing that since 1985 it has been the law in England and Wales that under-16s can access contraception, abortion and sexual health care confidentially.

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Moved by

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough]

457: Clause 191, page 223, line 13, at end insert—
“(2) The Secretary of State must, no later than 12 months after the day on which this section comes into force, and at least once every 12 months thereafter, conduct a review of its operation and impact.(3) The review under subsection (2) must, in particular, consider—(a) the incidence of medical complications for women acting in relation to their own pregnancy under the terms of this section, including incidence of maternal death;(b) the impact on the health and safety of women undergoing abortions;(c) the prevalence of self-induced abortions outside a clinical setting beyond 24 weeks’ gestation;(d) any reported cases of coercion or abuse related to abortions;(e) the application of criminal law to third parties involved in abortions;(f) any other topics the Secretary of State may consider appropriate.(4) Following the completion of a review under subsection (2), the Secretary of State must lay a report of the findings before Parliament.(5) The Secretary of State may by regulations repeal this section if he or she considers that a report under subsection (4) reveals it is having a detrimental effect.”

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[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, I know the hour is late, and it might be as well to record for posterity that a number of us were prevailed upon to regroup our degrouped amendments to keep the number of groups at three instead of four. The quid pro quo, as far as I understood from the usual channels, was that we would be allowed a decent amount of time to transact the business. The noble Baroness the Government Whip looks at me innocently—with an innocent visage—but the reason that the hour is late is that, obviously, we have had tributes to the former Lord Speaker, dinner break business and a UQ. I am sorry that your Lordships’ Committee is having to sit later than I would otherwise have liked.

I will not labour again the points I made at Second Reading about Clause 191, but I believe it will exacerbate the dangers inherently present in the pills by post regime. Suffice it to say that the new clause will make it easier to get abortion pills, it will make it easier for abusive partners to coerce women into having an abortion and it will lead to more abortions, including more late-term abortions, thereby putting more women at risk of dangerous complications. My Amendment 457 would introduce a statutory review of Clause 191 to provide a mechanism that is, in my opinion, the bare minimum gesture of seriousness this Parliament ought to make when undertaking such a profound change to the criminal law relating to the protection of human life.

Amendment 457 has three core elements. First, within 12 months of the clause coming into force, the Secretary of State must conduct a review of its operation and impact, followed by annual reviews thereafter. Secondly, there is a requirement that the reviews examine maternal complications, including maternal deaths, the health and safety of women having abortions, late self-induced abortion, connected coercion or abuse and the application of the criminal law to third parties involved in abortions. Thirdly, there is a power for the Secretary of State to repeal Clause 191 if the review shows it to be causing harm. The areas specified for review are not arbitrary but the categories where risk concentrates. They are the precise pressure points where this legislation is most likely to go wrong.

Let me outline a couple of these areas. It is vital we look at maternal complications. There is a serious discrepancy in the Department of Health’s reporting on this. The DHSC’s latest figures published just last month claim a complication rate of just 0.3 per 1,000 early medical abortions, equating to 71 abortions out of 236,000 in total. That sounds very good. It allows the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, the Minister, to repeatedly claim that abortion pills are safe. That is incredibly misleading. The official DHSC figures do not include complications reported after being discharged from a clinic. In other words, they do not include cases where a woman has taken one or more abortion pills at home, then has to go to hospital with infections, haemorrhaging or what is euphemistically called retained products of conception.

Those kinds of early medical abortions make up 82% of all abortions for residents of England and Wales in 2023. When you take into account hospital episode statistics publicly available for the NHS, you find that an estimated 12,000 women were admitted to hospital in 2023 with complications after taking abortion pills. There is a world of difference between 71 and 12,000, but the Government consistently refuse to report on the real picture. I have asked a number of Written Parliamentary Questions about upgrading the HSA4 form but to no avail. The Minister confirmed to me in writing in November:

“The Department has no plans to publish a separate annual report on abortion complications”.


I fear that, with Clause 191, the disparity between the official statistics and what is happening on the ground will only get worse. Modes of abortion provision have changed rapidly. Home-use pills, telemedical arrangements and so on all raise new questions. If Clause 191 increases the risk that women undertake dangerous procedures without clinical oversight or at later gestations, we must know.

Then there is coercion and abuse. Coercive partners, traffickers and other abusers sometimes pressure women into ending pregnancies. We must know whether decriminalisation for the woman inadvertently empowers abusers. Amendment 457 would require that to be examined.

That brings me to the third feature of this amendment: the power to repeal Clause 191 if the evidence demonstrates harm. Without this mechanism, the review would be merely an academic exercise. The repeal mechanism is a safety valve; it would not mandate repeal but make it possible where the evidence demands it. This is entirely normal, especially in sensitive areas of law. We have sunset clauses, review clauses and renewal clauses, all designed to ensure that legislation remains under scrutiny.

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[Baroness Barker (LD)]

I do not think that it is a false comparison. What we are saying is that, instead of having a system that is democratically decided openly and in Parliament, we will leave it to regulation and officials. I think that is wrong.

The other thing that my noble friend Lady Brinton wanted to say relates to proposed new subsection (3) in Amendment 457. Imagine a woman who is, in the words of the amendment,

“acting in relation to their own pregnancy”,

having to identify and report medical complications. What does that mean? I do not think that that is intended to make it any easier for a woman in need to access the care she needs. I think it is intended to frustrate and, therefore, I hope that these amendments will not be passed.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, I fail to understand the logic of both the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Barker, in setting their face against collecting more data. The fact is, we are not certain. We are still not certain as to the veracity and accuracy of any of this data. To give an example, the Royal College of Gynaecologists has issued “Making Abortion Safe” guidelines to providers for the safe use of medical abortion after 20 to 22 weeks. These guidelines recommend the use of feticide to avoid the foetus being born with signs of life, which can cause distress for women and their care providers. In the same guidelines, the RCOG states that there will be a

“need for further intervention to complete the procedure”

in 13% of cases. That is more than twice the highest rate reported by the—

[Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent) (Lab)]

Order. My Lords, I am ever so sorry, but an intervention, according to the Companion, should be short, brief and specific to the point. So, if the noble Lord could actually make his point, I would be grateful.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

Standing Order 29 does not apply, and I am entitled to speak more than once in—

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

Absolutely, but this is an intervention.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

I have not finished yet. Standing Order 29 does not apply in respect of the ability for a Member individually—

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, the hour is late, and I appreciate that this has been a very difficult debate. What I am saying is that the rules on an intervention are clear. The noble Lord is absolutely right that he can speak repeatedly, but he said

“Before the noble Baroness sits down”,


so we believed this to be an intervention.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

The Government Chief Whip is very flexible when it comes to that side of the Chamber segueing between speeches and interventions, and she does not intervene. It is only on this side that she intervenes, to throw off this side. The points she has made are not in line with what the Standing Orders and the Companion say, which is that a mover of an amendment and others are entitled to speak more than once.

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

The noble Lord has just promoted me, and I thank him for that. However, we have a very good Government Chief Whip, who I am privileged to serve under. The noble Lord will appreciate that, through my whipping, I have been trying to manage this in such a way that everybody has been able to be heard. Regardless of position, I do not think anyone here knows my personal views. On the current topic, it is the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, that is still on the annunciator, and the noble Lord indicated that he wanted clarification on a point before the noble Baroness sat down. That is what I was saying. We all believed it to be an intervention. If it is not, we can move on and revert back to the noble Lord for his second speech.

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[Baroness Levitt (Lab)]

My Lords, the amendments in this group all relate to reporting requirements and monitoring abortion services. It is important to say again that the Government are neutral on this. My remarks are limited to workability, operational concerns or possible unintended consequences. I am not going to speak to all the amendments, only those where there are particular issues that should be brought to the attention of the Committee.

Amendment 457, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, as currently drafted means that parts of the information that would be required are broad and the exact meaning is not always clear, raising practical workability issues. Not all the information required may be readily available, and producing an annual report would require the Department of Health and Social Care to take on additional reporting responsibilities, with associated costs.

Amendment 458, also in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, seeks to require the Secretary of State to produce an annual report detailing complications from abortions procured contrary to the Abortion Act. Determining whether specific cases fall within the report’s remit would require investigations to determine whether they could be considered to be contrary to the Abortion Act. This could necessitate involvement from medical professionals or other public bodies to review individual circumstances.

Further, as I have just said in relation to Amendment 457, as currently drafted parts of the information required are broad and the exact meaning is unclear, raising questions about practical workability. Not all the information required may be readily available; for example, it may not exist, it may require additional collection or it may be held across different systems, including the abortion notification system held by DHSC and patient records within the NHS.

Your Lordships may also wish to note that producing this annual report would require additional responsibilities with significant associated costs to the Department of Health and Social Care and other public bodies.

Amendment 461C would require the Secretary of State to publish an annual report disclosing data collected as required under Section 2 of the Abortion Act. I can confirm what has been said by my noble friend Lady Thornton: the Department of Health and Social Care’s abortion notification system already collects data on the self-reported ethnicity of the woman, when known, and complications that occur up until the time of discharge for all abortions. This data is published in the annual abortion statistics publication for England and Wales. However, as my noble friend Lady Thornton also commented, the abortion notification system does not currently collect information on the sex of the foetus, as most abortions are performed at an early gestation when the sex of the foetus will not usually be known.

On two further matters, the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, is correct: there has been a delay in the publication of the abortion statistics, but not for policy reasons. These are operational issues, which include moving to a new data processing system. We will announce dates for the publication of the 2024 data in due course.

Finally, on the question of sex ratios at birth, raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, the Department of Health and Social Care remains committed to publishing these statistics, and the publication dates for sex ratios at birth in the United Kingdom from 2018-22 and 2019-23 will be announced in due course.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions to the debate, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Barker, in particular, my noble friend Lord Cameron and the Government Whip, who is always very strict in the House, perhaps for the right reason.

It has been a good, lively debate. If I may press the Minister, and if she would perhaps be so good as to write to me on this, I have never had a satisfactory answer on the point I made earlier, about the use of the HSA4 form and why complications arising from terminations when a woman has left the clinical setting are not collected. It may not be hundreds of thousands, but it is a significant cost in terms of health outcomes and trauma for that woman, and cost for the NHS and private providers. We still need to know why that is not captured, because it does not provide the whole picture.

Nevertheless, with the proviso that we will return to this issue of data collection and empirical data that informs policy decisions, I seek the leave of the Committee to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 457 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough]

459A: Clause 191, page 223, line 13, at end insert—
“(2) Subsection (1) does not apply if the gestational age of the pregnancy exceeds 39 weeks.(3) For the purposes of subsection (2), the gestational age of a pregnancy is to be calculated from the first day of the woman’s last menstrual period.”

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, I promise I did not allocate the amendments in these groups, so I am sorry if noble Lords have had enough of me. In fact, I have had enough of me today—but we are on the home stretch.

It will be obvious that Amendment 459A is a probing amendment, but it raises a very important point. It makes absolutely clear just what Clause 191 is going to permit. I believe it is beyond the bounds of what any responsible legislature should accept. As we all know, at 39 weeks’ gestation, a pregnancy has reached full term. At this stage, one is no longer speaking of premature viability, uncertain outcomes or developmental limitations; one is speaking, as clinicians will confirm, of a baby about to be delivered. Do we really believe that the criminal law should be entirely silent about the responsibility of the mother at that point? Should Parliament not insist upon a basic threshold of protection for the viable child who is quite literally on the threshold of birth?

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Viscount Stansgate) (Lab)]

The noble Lord is moving his amendment.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

I am taking an intervention. I was more than happy to take an intervention from the newly minted noble Lord, Lord Doyle, but on the basis that wiser and better heads have prevailed, I will continue my words briefly.

The current criminal framework provides an important safeguard for women, particularly those under 16 and those who are vulnerable or at risk of coercion in what is already a highly permissive system. During the debate in the other place, the sponsor of the amendment, the honourable Member for Gower, claimed that legislative changes were needed “to protect the women”, but removing the legal deterrent to late-term abortions will only increase harm to women. It will mean a return to the days of backstreet abortions. A desperate woman will know she can end her pregnancy after 24 weeks without facing any police investigation for it, but she will be unable to obtain the abortion legally and so she will be driven towards illegal and unsafe providers.

A report in advance of the provisions coming into force might highlight all this and give us all a chance to think again, if indeed we are willing to think. There is a fanaticism around support for abortion that makes many people unwilling to consider the evidence. For example, some of the academic literature provides insight into the often-overlooked psychological impact of abortion, which was mentioned earlier. One study of 1.2 million pregnancies in Quebec hospitals followed women over a 17-year period. The results revealed that women who had an abortion were much more likely to be hospitalised for mental health conditions, such as depression and anxiety, as well as for substance abuse and suicidal ideation. This risk was higher among women who were under 25 at the time of their abortion and among those with a history of mental health difficulties. Another study found that, for many women, having an abortion is associated with lasting negative emotions such as feelings of guilt, regret, shame and self-unforgiveness. These feelings were strongest among women who reported being coerced.

I am constantly amazed at how little many feminists have to say about coerced abortion. The introduction of telemedicine abortion has undoubtedly made it much more difficult for coercion to be detected. A 2022 survey commissioned by BBC Radio 4 found that 15% of women have experienced pressure to have an abortion. This points to a significant cohort of women who are not exercising choice but are being manipulated into terminating the life of their unborn baby. I give way to the noble Baroness.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords—

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Viscount Stansgate) (Lab)]

If it helps the Committee, I note that an intervention cannot be made when someone is moving an amendment. The noble Lord is moving his amendment.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

I am very grateful for that guidance, and I apologise for starting to accept what I am sure would have been a sparkling intervention from the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle.

There are huge gaps in our understanding, particularly in relation to complications, but I will not repeat the points I made on my previous amendments. Suffice to say, there is a pressing need for a more comprehensive and robust system of data collection. My noble friend Lord Moylan’s Bill, which is currently awaiting Report, seeks to address this deficiency by ensuring that complications are more accurately reported. It would be remiss to proceed with Clause 191 without first seeking to understand the consequences for the recording and monitoring of abortion outside a clinical setting, particularly when we know that the present framework fails to capture the true scale of complications.

Finally, it is deeply regrettable that we are being asked to approve the most far-reaching change to abortion law since 1967 without the public having first been consulted. A change of such moral, legal and societal consequence warrants proper consultation, yet the public have been afforded no such opportunity.

Whichever side of the debate one may be on, we can surely agree that this is a matter that should not be pursued without proper consultation and consideration on its likely impact. I therefore urge noble Lords to support my amendment. I beg to move.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend’s Amendment 562, particularly his proposed new subsection (13)(e). I did not hear from the Minister earlier about what they are going to do once Clause 191 goes ahead—assuming it does; we will decide on Report whether or not that will happen. I do not think that the Minister will answer that today.

Amendment 562 would require the Government to give some proper consideration to how this is going to work in practice before it is enacted. For that reason, it is a sensible way to get a bit of breathing space to open up what we are walking into and, for those where potential crimes are committed, given that one person in the arrangement has been decriminalised, what is going to happen to the people who have facilitated what could be a crime. That is why I support Amendment 562 at this stage.

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[Lord Doyle (Lab)]

My Lords, I should make the point that I jumped to my feet to make earlier—on the comment that the noble Lord made about how long this issue had been debated in the other place for.

The noble Lord was a Member of the other place previously. I have not had that privilege, but we should show colleagues there a little bit more respect, in that the amount of time that they spent debating this issue should not be seen as an indication of whether or not they actually supported it. I am not sure whether the noble Lord is suggesting, if they had debated it for 46 hours or 46 days that, somehow, the 379 MPs who voted for the clause would not have done so or that they were not aware of what they were voting for in the first place.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

As the noble Lord has specifically challenged me on that issue, the point that was raised in earlier groups was that for government Bills there is an impact assessment, an equality impact assessment and pre-legislative scrutiny. There is significant public consultation resulting from the Cabinet Office, as the noble Lord knows very well, and there are guidelines as to public consultation. None of that happened on this occasion. Therefore, let us pay due regard to the deliberations, scrutiny and oversight of the Commons if there is a proper due process in the way that a Bill evolves and is debated, tested and challenged.

That has not been the case on this occasion, and it is very similar to the pills by post situation. The original wording of the pills by post amendment in the Commons was disorderly and had to be rewritten by special advisers in the Department of Health before it was introduced in the House of Lords. That was tacked on to a Health and Care Bill in the same way that this has been tacked on to a mainstream Crime and Policing Bill. So, with all due respect to the noble Lord, I do not think that his analysis stands up to scrutiny.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I will just very briefly intervene, as I was going to intervene until I was corrected. I have learned something—it is always good to learn new things in your Lordships’ House. The noble Lord cited a number of statistics suggesting that abortion was something that did emotional damage to women or that they regretted afterwards.

I will just cite one landmark study, published in Social Science & Medicine in 2020—this is in the context of America, where there is a huge amount of pressure and social discussion around abortion—which said that five years after having had an abortion more than 95% of women said it was exactly the right decision for them. That is a very different figure from those the noble Lord was citing. It is important to put that on the record for anyone who might be reading the debate and thinking about this.

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[Baroness Levitt (Lab)]

My Lords, your Lordships have heard me say now on at least two occasions that the Government are neutral, and therefore my only observations are about workability and operational issues.

I can respond to the amendments in this group in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, very briefly. It is unclear whether Amendment 563 is intended as an alternative to Amendment 562. If it is not, they would create two parallel commencement powers for Clause 191, each imposing slightly different and conflicting obligations on the Secretary of State.

In any event, your Lordships may wish to consider that not all the information required to produce the report as described in the amendment may be readily available within the timeframe, and some of the areas to be considered—for example, standards of clinical oversight—are broad. Although the amendment does not specify the consequences of failing to meet the specified deadlines for consultation or reporting, its effect would be that missing these deadlines would prevent Clause 191 coming into force.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, that is a very brief response from the Minister. I do not think the two amendments that I put to the Committee at this late hour are mutually exclusive—they are complementary. One is about a public consultation exercise and one is about a report to be prepared by the Government using secondary legislation. I accept that there would be an element of discretion for the Government. Obviously, this would be primary legislation in the Bill, but it would be largely facilitated—as the Minister knows, being a very eminent lawyer—by secondary legislation.

I finish very briefly with one thought. To a certain extent, the situation with this clause, and how the Government have handled it, is if not quite novel then constitutionally unusual, because the Minister is not in a position to answer detailed questions. She has undertaken to write and we take her at her word.

The clause is a cuckoo in the nest, really. The Government are, in effect, saying that they do not support it and they do not oppose it but it is in the Bill. I do not always praise the leader of my own party, but I will on this occasion. She had the courage of her convictions to whip in the other place against the whole Bill, even though it is largely a very good Bill, because of the inclusion of Clause 191. The Government should resolve this constitutional novelty and the odd situation arising from the fact that they did not have the moral courage to push back against the Member for Gower, which they should have done, and say that Clause 191 is too extreme and does not have a place. The Government should have said that this clause should be put it in a Private Member’s Bill, or that the Member should lobby Government Ministers to bring it forward as government legislation. But they did not do that; they put it in the Bill. They are therefore going to need to give better answers by the time it gets to Report.

For all that, I appreciate the Minister’s efforts to answer some questions and to undertake to write. On that basis, looking forward to further discussions on Report, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 459A withdrawn.