European Union (Referendum) Bill

Lord Hammond of Runnymede Excerpts

Friday 17th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond)]

It is a genuine pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey), who gave a rare but most welcome dose of common sense from the Opposition Benches on the subject. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) on his speech, on the powerful argument he has made for the Bill and, in particular, on his principled defence of the British people’s right to decide on their future in Europe. We are all grateful to him for taking up the noble cause of getting a referendum on Europe in the next Parliament on to the statute book before the general election.

The hon. Lady speculated in the closing moments of her speech on the Labour party’s tactics on this Bill. Perhaps the Opposition do not know, or perhaps she is just not on the mailing list for such sensitive information. I hope that later the shadow Foreign Secretary will enlighten the House on the Opposition’s precise position. I should make it clear that in making the case for this Bill I am doing so not on behalf of the coalition but as a Conservative. I shall say something about the position of my Liberal Democrat colleagues—although not of the one Liberal Democrat who is in the chamber.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Can you guide me on this? Is it not the procedure of this House that whoever speaks from the Government Dispatch Box speaks on behalf of the Government?

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

The Foreign Secretary is speaking as Foreign Secretary today, and is at the Dispatch Box doing so.

[Mr Hammond]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I shall say something in a moment about the position of my Liberal Democrat colleagues.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I am grateful that the Foreign Secretary is speaking as a Conservative today, as he always does, but is not the problem that all hon. Members know that this is a very good Bill but that it has no chance of getting on to the statute book because of the parliamentary timetable? Surely the Government should introduce this as a Government Bill, and if the Liberal Democrats want to walk out of the Government, let them do so.

[Mr Hammond]

I do not accept my hon. Friend’s premise. We have to give the Bill everything we have to get it through Parliament and on to the statute book, using all the devices and wisdom available to us to make sure that we do so, and as the British people would expect us to do. My hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Sir Roger Gale) has already suggested a technique to us this morning.

The case for the Bill is simple. It is right that the British people should make the decision on whether the United Kingdom stays in the European Union or leaves altogether, just as it was right that the Scottish people made the decision about their future in the UK. Every poll shows that whatever their view on the answer to that question, the overwhelming majority want the right to decide. In the 41 years since the United Kingdom joined the European Economic Community, and in the 39 years since we last had a referendum on Europe, the EU has changed profoundly. It has grown enormously in its power and its reach. It has grown in its competences, its legislation has spread, and the role of the European Parliament has increased almost beyond recognition at the expense of the other European institutions. It has morphed from a common market into a putative superstate. Put plainly, Europe today is very different from the Europe that people voted for in 1975, yet the British people have never been asked whether they agreed with any of these changes. So it should be no surprise to us that democratic support for the EU is fragile, to put it diplomatically. Ever-closer union has led to ever-greater disillusion.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the Scottish referendum. The difference there of course was that the Scottish Government, the majority party, came to power on a manifesto promise of a referendum. I have just checked the Conservative party manifesto for the last general election and the Conservative party policy was not for an in/out referendum; it was for a referendum if further powers were transferred. So apart from some of his colleagues who may have made individual promises, he has no mandate for this policy. He should put it to the public at the next election, but he has no mandate to bring this forward based on his manifesto.

[Mr Hammond]

The House of Commons will deliver a mandate for a referendum that empowers the people of this country to have their say.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is ironic that already under this Government we have had a referendum in Wales about further powers, as well as the referendum in Scotland, but when it comes to these international matters that affect the whole of the United Kingdom and British citizens beyond our shores, we have yet to give the people the choice? Is it not absolutely right that we should press on with this? If the House had a sense of fairness it would pass the Bill in short order.

[Mr Hammond]

I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend. The future of our relationship with the European Union is surely the most important strategic question facing this country today, and it is a question on which we should trust the instincts of the British people.

We should never forget, nor allow the public to forget, the particular responsibilities of the Labour party in all this. The treaties of Amsterdam and Nice had at least appeared in its manifestos before they were ratified without a referendum, but the Lisbon treaty appeared in no manifesto and was pushed through without the British public ever being allowed to have any say on it at all. Under the Labour Government’s 13 years of misgovernment, as well as letting spending, borrowing and immigration rip, their incompetent mishandling of Britain’s relationship with Europe decisively alienated the British people from the European project that they so cherish. Who, uniquely, among the large countries of Europe, failed to apply any kind of control over migration from the accession countries? Labour. Who signed Britain up for eurozone bail-outs? Labour. Who gave away £7 billion of our rebate with nothing in return? Labour. And who was the Europe Minister responsible at the time? The shadow Foreign Secretary.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The last Foreign Secretary would not publish a detailed agenda for EU reform. Will this Foreign Secretary do so?

[Mr Hammond]

The Prime Minister has set out clearly our agenda for EU reform. I am now touring the capitals of Europe, talking to colleagues across the European Union, explaining Britain’s position, hearing their positions, understanding how the ground lies ahead of what will be a great negotiation, starting next summer.

[Stephen Timms]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Hammond]

I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman, who defeated me in my first ever attempt at public office.

[Stephen Timms]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for reminding the House of that occasion. Does he accept, as the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) in moving the Bill did not, that the director-general of the CBI is speaking for British business as a whole when he says that membership of the European Union is fundamental to our economic future?

[Mr Hammond]

What business needs more than anything is certainty. So long as we do not allow the British people to have their say, we face continued uncertainty around this question. We need to settle this once and for all for the sake of Britain. Once it is settled, we can get on with our business.

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

Businesses in Rossendale and Darwen say to me that the Scottish referendum showed us that having a decisive choice, where the people are able to speak, will put the question of our membership of the European Union to bed for a generation. Because of the result of that referendum, no business in Scotland is now concerned about leaving that country.

[Mr Hammond]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw the analogy with Scotland. Settling the issue is good for business and it needs to be done by letting the British people have their say.

[Mike Gapes]

rose—

[Mr Hammond]

I will give way one more time.

[Mike Gapes]

The right hon. Gentleman’s Government, not just the Conservative party, but also the Liberal Democrats, agreed to allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in the referendum in Scotland. Why does the Bill not give the same democratic right to 16 and 17-year-olds in an EU referendum?

[Mr Hammond]

It is very clear what the Bill provides. It will be the general election franchise that applies. That is the right franchise to use for a referendum of the whole of the United Kingdom.

There are some, on both sides of the House, who may want Britain to leave the European Union come what may. They are entitled to that view, but it is not one that I share. There are others, mainly on the Opposition Benches and the Liberal Democrat party, who want to stay in the EU come what may. They are entitled to their view, but it is also not one that I share. No change is not an option. The status quo in Europe is not in Britain’s interests, or in the interests of anyone in Europe. So what most of us want to see is a radically reformed Europe; a Europe where powers flow from Brussels back to the nations, not the other way round; a Europe of co-operating nations, not a European superstate; a Europe of open markets and free trade arrangements with the world beyond; a Europe that can out-compete the best in the world, without red tape and regulation weighing it down. But most of all we want to see a Europe on which the British people have had their say. Whether we think that the European Union is perfection beyond improvement, like Labour, or irredeemably flawed, like a few of my hon. Friends, or, indeed, capable of the substantive reform that most of us on the Conservative Benches seek, we should all be able to agree that, after all the reform and renegotiation, after everyone has had their say, the ultimate decision on whether to go or whether to stay should rest with the British people.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

I agree with everything that the Foreign Secretary is saying on this point of renegotiation. Surely in Europe, particularly in Germany, they are so desperate that we stay in—quite rightly—that we can have a substantial renegotiation, and in particular we can reclaim control of our borders.

[Mr Hammond]

That is exactly the message I get as I travel around Europe. Germans, Dutch, Swedes and others understand Britain’s critical role as a balancing weight in the complex structure that is the European Union. They understand that, without Britain, the European Union would change fundamentally, and in a way that would be fundamentally inimical to their national interests. So we can have this negotiation. I am confident that we will be able to have a serious and proper discussion with our European colleagues.

The key point is that, on the basis of my hon. Friend’s Bill, when we have completed the negotiations and brought back the result, the question will not be whether Parliament thinks that the outcome is good enough, but whether the British people do. That will be good not only for our democracy, but for our negotiating position, because our partners in Europe will know that they cannot do deals with politicians in smoke-filled rooms; they will have to come up with something meaty and substantial that will work for the British people.

[David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend is being generous with his time. Does he agree that my generation has never had a say on whether we should be in the EU? My constituents would wholeheartedly endorse what the Government are trying to do.

[Mr Hammond]

I absolutely agree. I am only just old enough to have voted in the last referendum on the European Union—my first ever vote. There is a whole generation of people who have never been consulted on this question and who are entitled to have their say.

We should all be able to agree on this question, not least because that is the agreed position of this House in this Parliament, because the Bill we are debating today is, of course, the same as the one introduced in the previous Session by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) and passed unopposed on Third Reading. We are left wondering why it enjoyed such apparent acquiescence from Labour and the Liberal Democrats in this House, only for them to block it in the other place by denying it time for debate. The question is why Labour and the Lib Dems do not trust the British people to have their say on Europe. If Labour and the Lib Dems do not trust the voters, the voters should not trust them.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

I understand what the right hon. Gentleman is saying about listening to the British people, but does he understand that if the British people are to speak with clarity of voice, they need the clarity of choice of the Prime Minister’s red lines, and those have not been revealed? Until they are, how can that possibly be the case?

[Mr Hammond]

The clarity of choice they will have in 2017 is a clear body of reform on the table. They will know what the future European Union will look like and will decide whether or not they wish to be in it.

[Mrs Gillan]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for being so generous in giving way. Unlike some of the younger Members of the House, I am old enough to have voted in the last European referendum—[Interruption.] Unbelievable, I know. For me, the European Union has changed fundamentally since I voted for us to join that institution. However, my constituents in Chesham and Amersham often ask me whether I am confident that the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and the Government will have completed those renegotiations by 2017. Would he like to confirm that now so that we know that when we go into the referendum we will definitely have a full agenda for reform on which to vote?

[Mr Hammond]

My right hon. Friend is exactly right to ask that question. Of course, the fact of the referendum—the fact of this Bill—will drive the timetable of that agenda in Europe. We are lighting a fire under the European Union by this piece of legislation. We are setting off a process that politicians and Governments do not have the power to stop, and that will give us a very powerful weapon in our armoury.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

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[Mr Hammond]

I will make a little progress before giving way again.

Every time we have this debate, Labour and Lib Dem Front Benchers simply prove our point, as they are doing today: the one party that can and will deliver a referendum on Europe is the Conservative party. I have to tell them that, as a Conservative, I am very happy to go to the country next year with that message, but I would still prefer, in the national interest and in the interests of our democracy, to move to a referendum as a matter of national consensus.

[Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that this morning we have heard a series of obfuscatory remarks from Opposition Members that have nothing to do with the Bill under discussion? That poses the very simple question of whether we should have a referendum and let the people of this country decide. Why does he think Labour Members are so frightened of letting the British people decide?

[Mr Hammond]

I have to say, in all candour, that I do not know why Labour Members are so frightened, but I think that my hon. Friend is absolutely right. The reason they are talking about everything else they can think of is that it is deeply embarrassing for the people’s party to have to acknowledge publicly that it does not trust the people. That is the essence of what we are hearing today.

[Robert Halfon]

Further to that last intervention, the Labour party claims to represent the workers, yet the EU has had a hugely negative impact on the jobs and wages of British workers. Why will the Labour party not give workers a say in an in/out referendum on the EU?

[Mr Hammond]

That is a question that the shadow Foreign Secretary is infinitely better qualified to answer than I am, and no doubt he will deal with it when he gives the House the benefit of his remarks.

[Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Hammond]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, who has been incredibly patient.

[Richard Burden]

The Foreign Secretary said that he has been going around Europe, talking with other partners and setting out his objectives for reform, but he has not yet told the House what criteria he would use to judge whether the resulting package of reforms will be enough for him to recommend yes or no. Will he please now clarify that point?

[Mr Hammond]

The hon. Gentleman is wilfully missing the point. I do not have to make that judgment, and neither does this House; it is the British people who will decide once they have looked at what is on offer on the table.

I would rather move forward to a referendum as a matter of national consensus, because I think that would be good for our democracy, so I have to say to my absent Liberal Democrat colleagues—I exclude my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming), who is present—that they need to be consistent in their policy on Europe. They wanted an in/out referendum on the transfer of powers in the Lisbon treaty, and that is what we are offering, so they should vote for it. For the sake of our democracy and their own reputation with the British public, they should support the Bill, give it coalition backing and get it on to the statute book before the general election.

To the Labour party, I say that if ever we wanted a perfect illustration of the Leader of the Opposition’s utter inability to make up his mind one way or another, his European policy is it. It has not been easy for him, because he has been advised that he should hold a referendum, that he should not hold one, that he should make up his mind, and then that it would be better if he did not make up his mind, so he dithered. Now, 14 months after he responded to the Prime Minister’s Bloomberg speech by telling the House emphatically that

“we do not want an in/out referendum”—[Official Report, 23 January 2013; Vol. 557, c. 305.],

he unveils Labour’s new position—perhaps he got a phone call from someone—which is, as I understand it, that they would have an in/out referendum only if new powers were transferred from Britain to Brussels, a situation that the shadow Foreign Secretary has described as “frankly unlikely”, and one that could arise only if the Government agreed to a transfer of powers. In short, he is saying that he would be willing to agree to an in/out referendum in principle, so long as it would never happen in practice.

Just to make sure that people heard what the Leader of the Opposition wanted them to hear, his team spun the message, so readers of the Daily Mirror read that Labour was going to have a referendum, and on the same day readers of The Independent read that it was not. No amount of spin can conceal the reality of his position: no say on Europe under Labour.

[Mr Thomas]

The Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have both claimed that treaty change will be required for their reform agenda. Can the Foreign Secretary name one other EU country that supports treaty change by 2017?

[Mr Hammond]

The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly legitimate point. Many countries in the European Union are concerned about treaty change because of the implications for their domestic politics, but the EU may have to embrace treaty change anyway. The EU has to deal with the ongoing crisis in the eurozone, which will require structural change to resolve it. He wants to believe that there cannot be treaty change, but given the structural flaws in the eurozone and what will be needed to resolve them, the European Union may get treaty change sooner than it thinks and whether it likes it or not.

[Mr Jenkin]

My right hon. Friend is being very generous to Her Majesty’s official Opposition in saying that they do not believe that treaty change is obtainable. I think he is misinterpreting their motives. I think they like the European Union the way it is and the way it is going. Funnily enough, that is creating high unemployment and global financial instability, but they have no intention of changing it because they do not want to change it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hammond]

My hon. Friend is exactly right. They think there is nothing wrong with the status quo. Three years ago, the Leader of the Opposition told the BBC’s “Politics Show”:

“no, I don’t think Brussels has got too much power”.

That is his position. By contrast, the Conservative party has a simple plan for Europe: reform, renegotiation, referendum. It is a plan that we are pursuing with the same single-minded determination as our long-term economic plan. After Labour’s 13 years of failure, it is a plan that is already delivering results. Where Labour signed us up to eurozone bail-outs, we got Britain out. Where Labour gave away £7 billion of the rebate, we cut the EU budget for the first time ever. We have agreed new free trade deals and made a start on cutting EU red tape. We have won fundamental reform of the common fisheries policy, for which I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), and the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice). We have even got every country in the EU to accept not only that we are no longer in a one-speed Europe but that we are no longer all committed to going to the same destination. The June 2014 European Council conclusions were the beginning of the end of ever-closer union for the United Kingdom. Those are important achievements, but there is much more to do. The world is changing around the EU, and the status quo is no longer an option. Maintaining competitiveness demands reform. Fixing the eurozone demands reform. Restoring accountability to a disillusioned electorate demands reform. The penny is finally beginning to drop across Europe. Reform and change there will be.

The Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst says that when that process is completed, it will be the British people who judge whether the reforms represent the substantial and irreversible change that I judge they will need to see if they are to decide that Britain’s future lies inside the European Union. The Bill will ensure that that decision is made not by eurocrats in expense account Brussels restaurants, not by Ministers in late-night Council sessions, and not even by parliamentarians in this Chamber, but by the common sense of the British people. That is how it should be, that is what the Bill will ensure, that is what this House agreed to when it passed the same Bill last year undivided, and that is why this Bill merits the support of the whole House today.

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[Mr Alexander]

Well, any reasonable judgment of the budgetary settlement recognised that the budget was going to change as a consequence of 10 new members coming into the European Union. I hope there is common ground on that.

Secondly, if I recollect accurately, as a consequence of those budgetary negotiations undertaken by the then Prime Minister Tony Blair, there is now, for the first time, parity between the contributions of France and the United Kingdom. I would have thought that the hon. and learned Gentleman supported that.

[Mr Philip Hammond]

Will the right hon. Gentleman clarify whether he is one of those who believe that the crisis in the eurozone has passed, or does he recognise that there will need to be fundamental structural reform in Europe in order to ensure the success of the euro currency?

[Mr Alexander]

Of course there needs to be continuing fundamental and serious change in the eurozone, not least given the challenges that the peripheral countries face in relation to productivity and the frankly worrying current levels of growth across the eurozone. [Interruption.] The Foreign Secretary says it is a fundamental point in relation to treaty change, so I offer him the opportunity to step back up to the Dispatch Box and name one member of the eurozone that is publicly advocating treaty change between now and 2017. [Interruption.] The Foreign Secretary says, “Not publicly.” If it is accepted that there is a need for fundamental reform of the eurozone, what, at this point in the discussions, would be to the disadvantage of any one member of the eurozone—just one, not even two or three—to say that there is going to have to be fundamental treaty change in order to make the eurozone work effectively by 2017? I would be very happy to give way if the Foreign Secretary would like to intervene and name a country. His silence speaks volumes and that explains why, with every passing month, the credibility of Conservative Front Benchers diminishes with that of its Back Benchers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Alexander]

The confusion of the hon. Gentleman is a much longer topic of conversation, which extends beyond the parameters of this debate. Let us take a step back and recollect how far the Conservative party, of which he is a member, has journeyed. However, I note that he did not confirm that he will take the Conservative Whip, so he might be somebody else the Chief Whip needs to speak to in the coming days, along with so many others.

Back in the days when the Conservative party still believed that it could win a majority, the Prime Minister said that, “for too long”,

“Instead of talking about the things that most people care about, we talked about what we cared about most. While parents worried about childcare, getting the kids to school, balancing work and family life, we were banging on about Europe.”

Let us take this week as an example. On Wednesday at Prime Minister’s questions, Conservative Back Benchers asked more questions about Europe than any other subject, and here we are on Friday morning, once again witnessing the Conservative party banging on about Europe. It is talking to itself and not to the country all over again. It did not have to be like this. The tragedy for the country—this brings me back to my substantive point about statesmanship—is that the Prime Minister is trying to use a referendum Bill to cover over the cracks in the Conservative party, when he should be seizing the moment for reform in Europe.

In his speech in January last year the Prime Minister set out principles for EU reform, but 22 months later what more have we heard? There was a valiant attempt by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden) to elicit more information from the Foreign Secretary on that issue, but we heard only the sound of silence. Yesterday, what started as a screaming headline about free movement, became the squeak of “speculation” by the mid-morning Downing street briefing. Old spin techniques in place of new policy—exactly the kind of approach that leads to distrust in politics today.

Two years ago—let us be honest—the Prime Minister set out five principles of reform of such staggering blandness and generality that there was not really anything for any of us to oppose. Since then, however, we have heard absolutely nothing specific. That silence on the specifics—which we have heard again this morning—is not coincidental but utterly calculated, because the Prime Minister understands that the gap between what Europe will deliver and what his Back Benchers will demand remains unbridgeable 22 months on. He is hoping to sustain party unity through the device of obscurity. We are now in a position where, with months to go until the general election, the Opposition have a far more detailed agenda for reform on Europe than the Government.

[Mr Philip Hammond]

rose—

[Mr Alexander]

I am happy to give way—perhaps we can get some specifics.

[Mr Hammond]

Given that the right hon. Gentleman was the Europe Minister whose brilliant negotiating tactics lost £7 billion of our rebate, if he does not mind we will take no advice from him on how to negotiate the best deal for Britain in Europe.

[Mr Alexander]

It is always revealing when those on the Government Front Benches give up an argument and simply go for abuse. If that is the best the Foreign Secretary can do—[Interruption.] I am happy to give way again to hear a single specific example of powers that he will repatriate. Is he prepared to take to the Dispatch Box and tell the House which social, economic or employment rights he is seeking to repatriate? It is unconvincing for Labour Members, but—this is much more worrying for the Foreign Secretary—it is deeply unconvincing for Conservative Members when he pretends that he is having conversations in Europe that he is not willing to tell any of us about. That will not convince the British public, and I do not believe it will convince the House.