European Union (Referendum) Bill

Peter Bone Excerpts

Friday 17th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I shall say something in a moment about the position of my Liberal Democrat colleagues.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I am grateful that the Foreign Secretary is speaking as a Conservative today, as he always does, but is not the problem that all hon. Members know that this is a very good Bill but that it has no chance of getting on to the statute book because of the parliamentary timetable? Surely the Government should introduce this as a Government Bill, and if the Liberal Democrats want to walk out of the Government, let them do so.

[Mr Hammond]

I do not accept my hon. Friend’s premise. We have to give the Bill everything we have to get it through Parliament and on to the statute book, using all the devices and wisdom available to us to make sure that we do so, and as the British people would expect us to do. My hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Sir Roger Gale) has already suggested a technique to us this morning.

The case for the Bill is simple. It is right that the British people should make the decision on whether the United Kingdom stays in the European Union or leaves altogether, just as it was right that the Scottish people made the decision about their future in the UK. Every poll shows that whatever their view on the answer to that question, the overwhelming majority want the right to decide. In the 41 years since the United Kingdom joined the European Economic Community, and in the 39 years since we last had a referendum on Europe, the EU has changed profoundly. It has grown enormously in its power and its reach. It has grown in its competences, its legislation has spread, and the role of the European Parliament has increased almost beyond recognition at the expense of the other European institutions. It has morphed from a common market into a putative superstate. Put plainly, Europe today is very different from the Europe that people voted for in 1975, yet the British people have never been asked whether they agreed with any of these changes. So it should be no surprise to us that democratic support for the EU is fragile, to put it diplomatically. Ever-closer union has led to ever-greater disillusion.

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[Mr Alexander]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point, which points to two truths. The first is the importance of economic stability and certainty in relation to investment and the opportunities that British business needs not just to invest and employ, but to export in the future. The second is that it shows just how far the Conservative party has travelled.

[Mr Bone]

rose—

[Mr Alexander]

Who better to describe the journey the modern Conservative party is taking than the hon. Gentleman? I am happy to give way.

[Mr Bone]

I congratulate the shadow Foreign Secretary on his excellent and powerful speech, and I look forward to his putting his name forward in the next few weeks to become the next leader of the Labour party. I think we agree on the major point that the Labour party is clearly against an in/out referendum, and I am grateful to him for clarifying that. We also agree that it is very unlikely that the European Union will give the reforms that the Prime Minister wants. The difference is that, finally, at the end of the journey, it will be the British people who decide. That is the right way forward. Why will the Labour party not agree to that?

[Mr Alexander]

Flattering though the hon. Gentleman’s introduction to his question was, I fear that we diverge on at least two substantive points. First, Labour takes a conditions-based approach to an EU referendum. We think that the right point to have a referendum would be that which the Conservative party used to favour—indeed, it was in the Conservative manifesto. The party that has shifted its position is not the Labour party, but the Conservative party. The second point on which we take a different position is that we continue to believe that it is in Britain’s strategic, long-term interest to remain part of a changed and reformed European Union. It is not that the character of Europe is incapable of reform; it is that the competence of this Prime Minister means that he has failed abjectly to deliver reform. He has spent four years burning bridges rather than building alliances. That is why we have ended up with the paltry list of so-called reforms that were suggested by the Foreign Secretary today, against a backdrop in which he is literally incapable of articulating what the reform agenda would be.

The common ground between the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) and I is that both of us would like more clarity from Conservative Front Benchers on what the reform proposals are, what the red lines are and even how the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary would vote in a referendum. Indeed, if the Foreign Secretary would like to step up to the Dispatch Box and tell us something that he omitted to mention during his speech, he might answer this question: is he prepared, if he does not get the changes that he is hoping for in the reform discussions, to recommend a no vote? Once again, the silence speaks volumes. That might be a judgment based on loyalty to the Prime Minister that costs him many votes in a future leadership contest.

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[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

Article 9 of the Bill of Rights states:

“That the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament.”

Believe it or not, Brussels is a place. If we have a regulation rather than a directive, the regulation automatically overrides domestic law. Because the Bill of Rights was established as part of the Glorious Revolution, which was a popular revolution, certain changes to our constitution should inherently warrant a referendum. Hence I was pleased to support the previous version of this Bill, which is the same as this version, and having a referendum on our continued membership of the EU.

A particular strength is that the Bill puts a timetable on changes. Some changes need to happen. For instance, when this was all initially brought together, nobody would have thought that we would be encouraging people to come here to sell The Big Issue, yet by selling that paper or running a nonsensical or otherwise unprofitable scrap metal deal, people qualify for tax credits and get a lot more money from them than they do from The Big Issue or whatever it may be. People migrate here to be officially poor. Nobody would ever have thought that was sensible, and that sort of thing needs to change.

Having seen the difficulties caused by the previous Labour Government’s not maintaining interim rules on migration from eastern Europe, I doubt whether anyone here would accept that if we added Turkey and Ukraine to the EU, we should add them with the same rules on freedom of movement that apply elsewhere. I do not think anyone argues for that, so changes are obviously needed in the operation of the EU.

My personal view is that if we are going to have a Common Market that is really a common market, we need systems for determining the rules. When Margaret Thatcher introduced a federal Europe by introducing qualified majority voting as a result of the Single European Act, it was in many ways a rational process because we needed a system for working out the rules. I personally support having a more democratic process through the European Parliament, but I do not support an ever-closer union, because I do not believe that is what we want. We do not want to homogenise the European area.

There are debates and problems that arise from the way in which structures have been set up. One relates to human rights, for instance. I am a supporter of civil liberties and human rights, but I think the judicial activism in the Council of Europe—a different body, of course, from the EU—has been quite problematic. The solution, however, is democracy: using the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe to control the interpretation of the European Court of Human Rights. It is not just to try to find some way out of a system that, apart from in some limited circumstances—prisoner votes, for instance—worked reasonably well. There are cases where it clearly does not work, but there are ways of dealing with them.

A referendum is definitely a very good way forward because it will enable us to have that debate. UKIP has recommended being in the European economic area, but the difficulty with that is that control on membership of the EU is completely lost because members of the EU have the right to veto additional members, but members of the EEA have to live with whatever comes out of the EU. At the end of the day, if we were not in the EU, we would be part of some other structure. It is unlikely to be invented as a new exercise; it is more likely that it would be based on the EEA. I do not necessarily believe that we always have to remain within the EU, but I am inclined to support the EU and its structures, while wanting definite changes to their operation.

[Mr Bone]

The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point, but if the fifth largest economy in the world pulls out of something, surely a different structure would need to be created to accommodate it.

[John Hemming]

It is a question of buyers and sellers. Normally, selling something is a bit harder than buying it. People will sell things quite happily, but it is one thing to sell to Germans in German and another to buy them in English. There is some difficulty with the idea that our exports would simply be taken as read. I do not accept that people so want to purchase our exports that they would do exactly what we wanted. If we look at the EEA, we find that Norway contributes a lot of money to the EU through its EEA membership. The argument that not being in the EU would save us money is not necessarily a valid one. I do not take the view that suddenly everybody would bend over backwards to do exactly what we want, but that does not necessarily mean that we should go into the negotiations saying that we will swallow whatever comes out of this. The Opposition’s view that we should never stand up for anything because we might lose is not mine.

I was very pleased when the Government pulled us out of supporting the eurozone financial arrangements beyond supporting the International Monetary Fund. That was a sensible decision. In the dying days of the last Government, when Labour lost the election, they underwrote things, but doing so is actually taking on a big risk.

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[Stephen Timms]

I say again to the hon. Lady that the question of whether we remain members of the EU is a central one in determining whether we should have a referendum. That was the view set out by the current Prime Minister—the leader of her party—when speaking in Hammersmith on 5 January 2010, while he was campaigning for election and she was supporting him. He said:

“Do I want an in/out referendum? No, I don’t, because I don’t think we should leave.”

That was his view then and I think he is right to link, as he did so explicitly in those remarks, the question of whether or not there should be a referendum with that of whether we should remain a member of the EU. I am saying that instead of two years of political paralysis with the kind of navel-gazing debate envisaged and supported by Government Members, we should be focusing on addressing the economic challenges that face the UK, tackling the cost of living crisis that millions of people across the country are suffering. They have seen their wages fall in real terms since 2010. That should be the focus for the Government elected next May.

[Mr Bone]

The right hon. Gentleman normally makes sensible comments in this Chamber, although I do not agree with the point he is making. Putting party politics to one side, does he not agree that what business wants is certainty and that until a referendum is held there will be a debate about whether we stay in or come out of the EU? Is it not better for business to have that referendum and so have that matter finally decided?

[Stephen Timms]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that what business needs is certainty, a point that was made by the Foreign Secretary just a few minutes ago. If we were to embark on a referendum campaign, however, that would unleash two years of total uncertainty. Investment projects would not go forward and economic improvements would not take place. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to highlight the dangers of uncertainty, as his right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary did, but this Bill will create more uncertainty than any other measure currently being proposed.

[Mr Bone]

The right hon. Gentleman makes the fair point that the further away we are from the referendum, the more uncertainty there is. Of course, there has been a lot of misunderstanding in the Chamber today. The Bill says that there will be a referendum by the end of 2017; it does not say that it will not be earlier.

[Stephen Timms]

The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. I think that he would probably agree with the views of Sir Martin Sorrell, a supporter, as I understand it, of his party, who said:

“Having a referendum creates more uncertainty and we don’t need that…You added another reason why people will postpone investment decisions.”

Surely what we should be doing in this House is encouraging investment decisions and encouraging people to bring them forward rather than putting them back. I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman that there is an enormous danger in creating unnecessary and unwanted uncertainty, which would lead to serious economic risk for the UK.

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[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

As the hon. Member for Clacton (Douglas Carswell) just said, next Friday it will be three years since I moved a motion in this House to hold a referendum on our membership of the European Union. At that time, there was a three-line Whip from all the major parties against my motion. I am pleased that the Prime Minister has listened to the overwhelming view of the majority of the British people that they want their say on this issue—that it should not be decided by a political elite, but by the hard-working British people.

There are two main reasons why the Bill is necessary and why there should be a referendum. First, as has been mentioned, it is four decades since the British people last had their say on our membership of what was then the European Economic Community, which people referred to at the time as a common market. But the organisation we belong to today is a completely different animal. It is vastly bigger and has vastly more control over the United Kingdom.

Secondly, as has already been evidenced in the debate, this issue crosses party political boundaries. There are supporters of all parties who want us to stay in the European Union, and there are supporters of all parties who want us to leave. In those circumstances, because it cannot be decided at a general election, and because it is a constitutional matter, it is right that it should be determined by the British people.

As chair of the Better Off Out group of MPs and peers, my view is clearly that we would, as a nation, be better off out of the European Union. On far too many issues this Parliament has no choice but to simply carry out the instructions sent to us from the European Union, whether we like it or not. This House of Commons should not simply be the lapdog of Brussels. Why should we have to pay billions of pounds each year just for the privilege of trading with our own European neighbours, even though, as has been pointed out, they would trade with us anyway? It just does not make sense.

[Mr Bone]

I was delighted to have the opportunity to wind up the debate that my hon. Friend initiated three years ago. Does he agree that this mother of Parliaments should decide today by having a Division? As someone who passionately believes that we should come out of the European Union, I do not think that we should allow this to go through on the nod.

[Mr Nuttall]

I recall that my hon. Friend summed up that debate eloquently and—this was the crucial point—just in the nick of time. The House divided then, and if we divide today I of course will have no hesitation in supporting the Bill.

As a nation, we need to export to the whole world. Having to comply with red tape from Brussels makes the job that much harder and more difficult for British companies that are having to compete on the world stage with companies that do not have to comply with such a regulatory burden.

I hope that the Bill will pass through its stages in this House quickly, and if it is held up again in the other place, I hope that the Parliament Act will be used so that my constituents in Bury, Ramsbottom and Tottington, and indeed constituents in the whole country, can have their say. It is long overdue.

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[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I am sorry to hear that your voice is suffering, Madam Deputy Speaker; I hope you did not catch it from the Leader of the Opposition.

The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) is a really well-liked parliamentarian, but I think he will reflect later that some of his comments were unfortunate. He made clear his position in favour of the European Union, which is a perfectly legitimate view to take. I tried to find something on which I could agree with him. It is possible that he has misunderstood the Bill. It says that there will be a referendum by the end of 2017, so it may well take place earlier, which would remove some of the uncertainty the hon. Gentleman is worried about. Perhaps that is the little bit of common ground I share with him.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) on an absolutely splendid and passionate speech. If the progress of the Bill were based on that, it would be law by next week.

I want to make two points. First, I fear, because of the parliamentary timetable and because Members of both Houses will, quite legitimately, use parliamentary tactics to delay the Bill, we will not get it on to the statute book. I think that the way forward is for the Government to introduce the Bill. The Conservatives dominate the Government and lead the Government, so we should not be scared to put the Bill forward. If the Liberal Democrats want to vote against the Bill, let them vote against it. If they want to leave the Government, let them leave the Government. I do not think that they will. If we were to introduce it as a Government Bill, a Conservative Bill, on the Floor of the House and it was voted down, the public would know that the Conservatives were in favour of a referendum and that the Liberal Democrats and Labour were against it. That is the only way in which we will get a clear-cut vote on this matter. I hope that the House divides today. I hope to add some weight to the attempts to get that Division.

Secondly, I want to raise a much more local matter. The rest of the country will have to wait for an in/out referendum, but north Northamptonshire is already having an in/out referendum. It is being led in Kettering by my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone), in my constituency by myself and in the Corby constituency by Thomas Pursglove, the excellent Conservative candidate, who, I am pleased to tell the Prime Minister, is as Eurosceptic as myself and my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering. We are delivering a quarter of a million ballot papers with the simple question of whether the people of north Northamptonshire want to remain in or come out of the EU. We will finish the referendum by the end of the year and deliver the result to Downing street. I do not think that I am wrong in saying that, at this stage, 85% of the ballots that have been returned are for coming out of the EU.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

May I draw it to my hon. Friend’s attention that the good people of Cleethorpes are also receiving those in/out referendum leaflets, and that 89% of them have voted for out?

[Mr Bone]

I am really grateful that that is happening. In north Northamptonshire, this is the biggest test of public opinion on whether we should be in or out of the EU since the Wilson referendum.

Our work in the Corby constituency might be of interest to Opposition Front Benchers. At the moment, it is a Labour seat. As I have gone around the doors delivering the ballot papers, it has been amazing how many people who have voted Labour are very keen to vote in the referendum. As the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) said, they want to come out. That is a warning. I am trying to help the Opposition by saying that if they do not adopt the position that there should be a referendum, a lot of their voters will go off and vote UKIP. I do not think that UKIP will make any gains, but it might let the Conservatives win.

[Mr Thomas]

I have always had an extremely high opinion of the hon. Gentleman and have long thought that he should be elevated to the Front Bench. I wonder whether he will turn his attention to the question of the date and tell us why it should be 2017. Why should it not be 2018, 2016 or 2019? Why has the arbitrary slot of 2017 been picked?

[Mr Bone]

I am grateful for that intervention, although it has killed off any chance of my getting into government, and I was looking forward to it happening soon. I will deal with that point, but I first want to go back to the local issue of the ballot in north Northamptonshire.

If anyone in north Northamptonshire wants to vote, they can do so at nneureferendum.com or by postal ballot. The interesting thing is the movement of traditional Labour supporters towards our position as the only party that can deliver a referendum. That is a most interesting change and it has happened over the past few weeks. It is good news for Tom Pursglove, our candidate, and rather bad news for the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford).

The last point—I tried to deal with this at the beginning of my speech—is the date of the referendum. Everyone is making the mistake of saying that it will be at the end of 2017, but the Bill and the Prime Minister’s position are clear that it could be earlier. The end of 2017 is a backstop—that is the end date. I hope that explanation will allow the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) to vote for the Bill today.

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[Mike Gapes]

In which case I must get a new pair of glasses. I apologise profusely.

The position put forward in the Bill has a number of serious flaws. There is a problem, which other hon. Members have already commented on, with regard to the date of the referendum. The hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) referred to the possibility that the referendum might be held not by the end of 2017 but somehow much earlier. Presumably, that is because he hopes and perhaps even expects the Prime Minister to be unable to have a successful negotiation and make an early decision, having tried his one last chance, to pull out of any negotiation to have an early referendum. If the hon. Member for Wellingborough wishes to intervene to clarify that, I am happy to give way.

[Mr Bone]

I have great faith in the Prime Minister’s renegotiating skills and I think he will renegotiate very successfully much earlier.

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[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

I have in the past been a great supporter of Friday morning debates on private Members’ business. We often get some very straight talking on a Friday morning, and I gained that impression this morning. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers), who has had a tradition of opposition to the European Union going back many years, as have many Conservative Members. I do think, however, that it would have been better if this motion had been made more clearly one about getting out of Europe, rather than hiding behind the pretence that it was a motion about giving choice to the British people.

We should beware of politicians calling for common sense without telling us what that common sense actually is. What we have not had from the Conservative party or the Prime Minister is clarity about what a renegotiated Europe would look like or about the red lines as we go into the negotiations. Neither have we had clarity about a time scale within which to enable the British people to make the informed and common-sense judgments—I certainly trust the British people are able to do so, as many Conservative Members have claimed they do—that are needed. A common-sense judgment demands having some real questions on the table to look at, examine and then to decide on.

Because the Prime Minister has been unwilling to provide clarity over the red lines and because the Conservative party has been unwilling to set out what a revised European Union would look like after a renegotiation, within 19 months of next May, there would have to be clarity on those issues. I do not think that that is a reasonable time scale. The hon. Gentleman who often speaks for his wife and whose constituency I have forgotten—

[Mr Bone]

Wellingborough.

[Barry Gardiner]

Wellingborough: of course it is. The hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) said that the end of 2017 was a backstop, but, as he knows full well, in the last six months of 2017 Britain will be chairing the European Union, and it is inconceivable that we could hold the referendum within those six months. The hon. Gentleman drew the date forward, saying that there could be a referendum during the first six months of the year, but that would shorten the time that the British people would have in which to look at what was on offer.

I do not think that the Bill is lacking in disingenuity. It is disingenuous because it claims to rely on the good wisdom of the British people to make a judgment without giving them the basis on which to make that judgment, and without giving them a time scale that will allow them to exercise it.