Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Lord Fox Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 8th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough— I think it was in Peterborough that I got caught in a ring road and went round and round without ever getting anywhere. It is also a pleasure to wind up this debate, but it was more of a pleasure to hear the excellent maiden speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Winterton of Doncaster. While other colleagues were describing her huge and lengthy parliamentary CV, they failed to observe her last two jobs. The most recent was that of Deputy Speaker, and before that she was buried in the shady depths of the Whips’ Office. Neither of those afforded much opportunity for her to stand up on the green Benches and make speeches. It is good to have her back making speeches, and I am sure she will contribute fully to the work of your Lordships’ House.

Brexit is the present that keeps on giving. I naively hoped that the post-Brexit replumbing of the statute book was done, but no. As the Minister explained, the Bill is another piece of work that we need to do as a result of the Brexit process and, while we have managed thus far, it provides a welcome—from these Benches—and much-needed legislative mechanism to introduce changes to regulations. On these Benches, as I think noble Lords have understood, we will work positively with the Minister. I welcome him to his new role, and we thank him and his team for the engagement that they have already given us and that I am sure we will get in future.

Overall, we will be looking for ways to ensure that the Bill advocates for strong consumer safety and well-being. Consumer safety should be built into the Bill and should ensure that all future secondary legislation must be designed to maintain a high level of consumer protection and well-being and to require that products be safe. Future regulation should also cover product recall and other areas, such as disposal. In these regards, there is tremendous scope to strengthen the Bill.

There is more joy in heaven over a sinner who repents. While it might not be heaven on the Liberal Democrat Benches, there is some ironic joy when we hear the voices of some on the Conservative Benches complaining about Henry VIII legislation. During a debate on one of the many Bills, I warned them to be careful what they wished for; what they wished for is what they are now getting. As the Minister explained, this is a framework Bill so there is no subterfuge, but it is one with few or no guard-rails. As we go through, I think that will be important. I look forward to hearing what the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has to say about this, because I suspect we may have to think through some areas around it.

Your Lordships’ House is familiar with, and a number of noble Lords have mentioned, the time-honoured complaint that secondary legislation is unamendable when it comes before us. In the absence of any details in the Bill, it is for this reason that colleagues are starting to raise issues, and many of these issues will come forward. They are anxious to pursue how the regulations will work on really important issues. An important subset has been the issue of lithium-ion batteries. It is not the only priority but is clearly one for some Members of your Lordships’ House.

I believe, as others have said, that the best way for the Minister to draw the sting of this debate is to show us what the proposed regulations will be. I think there will be a number of other areas, particularly around markets, where that strategy will be the best way to satisfy your Lordships’ House. Also, publishing the details of the consultation—which, in our meeting with him, the Minister told us would be coming forward—is very important and will draw some of the sting from the Conservative Front-Bench speech. More generally, there should be a commitment to publish that draft legislation and to give your Lordships an opportunity, once the Bill has passed, maybe in Committee or otherwise, to review that.

A real issue, raised by the noble Lord opposite and by my noble friend, is chemicals regulation. Chemicals regulation is one of the biggest bugbears facing British manufacturing, and one of the biggest hazards facing British consumers across the country. There is a roadblock thanks to the way in which REACH was to be ported across to this country with a new system—I will not bore the Minister on this issue; I have bored Parliament on several occasions on it. It is still a botch—the idea that data could be ported across from EU REACH into the British system was always wrong and there were warnings from the outset. That is why we have the stasis going on now. I would like the Minister to confirm that REACH is within the scope of the Bill, and if it is not we will table amendments to bring it into scope.

Liberal Democrats also believe that we should make future regulations that have regard to the sustainability of products, including the right to repair, reuse and safe disposal, which was mentioned by my noble friend—building in circular economy principles into future regulation. We will table amendments to enshrine that as part of the guardrails that I have talked about.

Next, the accompanying notes and ministerial communications have lauded how the Bill will respond to new and emerging business models. This is important and, as noble Lords heard from my noble friend Lord Foster and others, we will be probing the regulation of online marketplaces. Current product safety laws were developed before the evolution of online marketplaces. The Office for Product Safety and Standards thinks that the responsibilities on these online marketplaces are currently insufficient, and that the rules are unclear. We agree with that and will be seeking that clarity. We will seek an enforceable duty on online marketplaces to provide confidence for consumers. In addition, we will propose the extension of liability to online market- places for defective products, particularly those sold by third-party sellers. This needs to be supported by clearer definitions of the key terms, as some of my colleagues, including the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, I think, mentioned.

The crucial issue of enforcement was also raised by my noble friend and it is clear that without an obligation to deliver resources to enforce them, these new regulations are essentially worthless. There can be no level playing field for bricks-and-mortar shops if these new rules are not properly enforced on the digital players in the economy.

Moving on, can the Minister please explain, as a number of your Lordships have asked, how this regulation will mesh with the United Kingdom Internal Market Act and with the Windsor Framework? The noble Lord, Lord Browne, and others pointed out that although product regulation is a reserved issue, the effects of the product being regulated are often not reserved. So can the Minister explain how the Bill will proceed, and how it will proceed if it does not receive legislative consent from one or other of the devolved authorities? Meanwhile, we have cross-border issues in the island of Ireland. This has been mentioned around the scope of the Windsor Framework. In some cases it has been mentioned as a menace, in some cases I think the Bill has the opportunity to solve some of those problems, and it will be good to know the Minister’s and the Government’s philosophy on that.

Part of the post-Brexit issue in dealing with the internal market was to create the common framework process. Nobody has talked about those common frame- works for a very long time. I would like the Minister to update your Lordships’ House, probably by letter, on where those common frameworks are, because this is an ideal topic for one of those frameworks, probably the environmental framework, to deal with. At the moment it is not clear to me whether those are completely moribund or whether there is a channel there to deal with it. If there is not, I think we will have to table something in Committee that has a way of bringing together the nations of the United Kingdom so that they can contribute to the process of the regulation that is going forward, rather than have it done to them all the time. That speaks to the spirit that the noble Lord, Lord Browne, was talking about just now.

I would like to use what remains of this speech to clarify two points. First, what is a product? This is not the start of a philosophical discussion. I was struck by one of the conversations I had with the Bill team—for which I was grateful—that the Bill is aimed at tangible products, such as an alarm clock, a vacuum cleaner, or a car, if it is in the scope of these regulations. Historically, the operationality of such things was self-contained. It had all the features that it had, and they were not mutable. That is no longer the case. Almost every product can be internet-enabled and can have its software updated, remotely, overnight, without me even knowing. So the properties of that product, which might have been legal, decent, honest and truthful at bedtime, can be positively dangerous by the morning unless the process of the software operating system updating is also part of the regulatory process. The Bill does not in any sense capture the spirit of that. We will certainly probe that in Committee.

My final point is distinctly Brexity—noble Lords would not expect otherwise. Interestingly, and unusually, the noble Lord, Lord Frost, and I have a shared interest, in that both of us would like some clarity around how the Bill will be used, though we definitely come at it from opposite angles. He and other noble Lords raised the spectre of Clause 2. I will not quote Clause 2(7) again, but a number of my colleagues have said that this is starting to look like a change of tone by the Government. Although some noble Lords on the Conservative Benches might consider this to be a sinister plot, those of us on these Benches would consider it cause for hope, and a sign that some sense is beginning to emerge from the chaos that this Government have been left by their predecessor. Can the Minister tell us whether this is cause for hope? Should I be hopeful? When will hope come riding through the corridors of Parliament?

What most manufacturers want to know is how adhering to future UK regulation will affect their ability to export to probably one of their biggest markets. They do not want two different standards, and the failure of UKCA is a good example of why having two regulatory structures does not work. The previous Government recognised that and kept kicking it into the long grass, while pretending it still existed.

There is a real and present issue—I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, who raised it at the last—in that the EU General Product Safety Regulations are coming down the line. This is a new instrument in the EU product safety legal framework which replaces the current general product safety directive and the food imitations product directive, and it comes into effect on 13 December 2024. This Bill will not be in place to deal with it, and there is a good deal of uncertainty and ignorance among our manufacturers about the very existence of the directive.

I know that the DBT has started to do some workshops, but there is a tremendous amount of work that needs to be done to explain to people exporting to the EU at the moment that they will have new regulations. These apply to non-food products and to all sales channels within the EU and exports to the EU; the aim is to ensure safety on their grounds. There will be new responsibilities for UK exporters, and these changes will be particularly impactful on SMEs and on businesses using online sales channels. It really is important that the DBT gives us a gap analysis as to what these new regulations bring that current UK regulations do not bring. Separate to this Bill but within the spirit of it, that would be an important communication for us to have. There are a number of issues around this directive, relating to producer responsibility, precautionary principles, internal risk analysis, product safety and traceability information, to name but a few. I know that Make UK is extremely concerned about the lack of activity around telling UK businesses what is going on.

On a more general basis, it would make a lot of sense for the UK Government to develop and create a monitoring capability so that divergence at EU level is communicated to British businesses. That would be to take the view that this Bill does not bring dynamic alignment and that there will always be changes going on. There is no sense that any alignment can be dynamic; it can be created, in that Governments can make alignment case by case, but there is no automation in this Bill. As far as international standards go, I do not think there is anything in this Bill that stops what the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, wanted to do.

This Bill has a very anodyne title—it perhaps wins the prize for one of the more boring titles. Some have concluded that it is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I hope that, with the help of your Lordships during Committee, we can make sure that it is a sensible approach to helping UK consumers get the safety and well-being they require from products, and that UK manufacturers have a fair wind behind them to trade with the EU and help to deliver the growth that everybody in this House craves.

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[Lord Leong (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sandhurst. I will ask my officials and come back to the noble Lord on that request.

The noble Lord, Lord Foster, asked about lithium-ion batteries. I am pleased to advise that, while we have been in this debate, Minister Madders, my colleague in the other place, is in Paris at the OECD global awareness campaign, which this year focuses on lithium-ion batteries. The UK and the Office for Product Safety and Standards have been leading on this campaign. The noble Lords, Lord Redesdale and Lord Fox, raised additional points about disposal. Ministers are referring proposals to consult on reforms to UK battery regulations before setting out next steps.

The noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, asked why the UK wished to be able to continue recognising the CE marking. This Bill will allow the Government to choose to recognise updates to EU product regulation to provide continued regulatory stability and avoid extra costs for business where this is in our interests. It will also allow us to end recognition of EU requirements where it is in the interest of business and consumers. We presently recognise current EU regulations for a range of products. Legislation passed in May 2024 to continue CE recognition for 21 product regulations is estimated to save UK businesses £640 million over a 10-year period, largely from avoiding duplicate compliance and labelling costs. Provisions in the Bill allowing us to continue or end recognition of EU requirements will enable us to provide the certainty that businesses need to plan for the future and innovate, supporting economic growth. The UK and EU share information on trade, including changes to the trade and co-operation agreement.

The noble Lord, Lord Foster, and several other noble Lords asked about the disposal of lithium-ion batteries. The Government are committed to cracking down on waste as we move towards a circular economy, where we keep the resources we use for longer and reduce waste. The existing product responsibility scheme for batteries and waste electronics makes producers responsible for the cost of end-of-life treatment. Under existing UK legislation it is already mandatory for all batteries placed on the market in the UK to be clearly marked with the crossed-out wheelie bin.

The noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, asked why there have been no changes to legislation on product safety since our exit from the EU. I can reaffirm that this is real, hence bringing forward powers in this Bill to allow us to make changes before divergence happens and we fall further behind.

The noble Lord, Lord Frost, asked why we cannot use existing powers. The new Bill powers are required to enable the Government to modernise and future-proof product regulation, ensuring that it is tailored to the needs of the UK. The powers in the retained EU law Act 2023 are limited, in that they can be used only to revoke and replace assimilated law and have other inbuilt restrictions—for example, secondary legislation that is made under REUL must be deregulatory. This means that we would not be able to use the powers to increase safety requirements to respond to new and emerging threats through further amendments and legislation which was not assimilated law before.

The noble Lord, Lord Frost, also asked whether the Bill will make the UK a rule-taker or a rule-maker. We are definitely not a rule-taker. We are a rule-maker, and the Bill will provide powers to give the UK greater flexibility in setting and updating its own product-related rules, as well as enabling the UK to choose whether to recognise relevant EU products requirements. Any further changes made using these powers will be subject to appropriate parliamentary scrutiny. The noble Lord asked whether the Bill protects internal markets. The Bill will give us flexibility to ensure product regulation and metrology now and in the future. It is tailored to the needs of the UK as a whole. It will enable us to make changes to product regulation and metrology legislation that will benefit businesses and consumers.

The noble Lord, Lord Frost, also asked about the Windsor Framework. In updating its regulation, the EU will be seeking to deal with many of the same challenges that the Bill will address: for example, online marketplaces and batteries. The Bill will enable a choice to be made as to whether it is in the interests of UK businesses and consumers for UK regulations to take the same or a similar approach, or indeed a different one.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, asked whether the Government will commit to a policy of alignment with EU chemical protections. This Government are committed to protecting human health and the environment from the risks posed by chemicals. We are currently considering the best approach to chemicals regulation in the UK separately to this Bill and will set out our priorities and next steps in due course. The noble Baroness also asked how the Bill will help the Government respond to emergencies.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

Am I to understand that, if there is to be separate consideration for chemicals regulation, it will not be in this Session because it was not in the King’s Speech? So all those businesses that are currently struggling with where we are now have at least a year, and probably 18 months, to wait before any sense of a Bill—never mind that Bill becoming law.

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

I am coming back to that in the later part of my winding speech.

National emergencies such as Covid-19 highlight the importance of ensuring that our product regulation framework allows for flexibility in times of national emergency. This enabling Bill will allow the Government, in response to an emergency, to temporarily disapply and modify product regulation while maintaining high safety standards, thereby providing a faster process by which critical products are able to reach the market in order to sustain an adequate supply of such products.

Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Lord Fox Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 20th November 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I join the cavalcade of congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, on his new role. We on these Benches look forward to working constructively with him; having witnessed what he did on at least one other Bill when I was opposite him, there is lots of room for us to build on that and work with him.

This is a Grand Committee but I will try to avoid grandstanding. I just want to lay out a modus operandi, if you like, from these Benches for how we shall take this Committee stage. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, and others, we do not need convincing that this legislation is necessary. That is the starting point. We believe that this is an important Bill but we are disappointed—as I am sure the Committee has already heard and will hear again—about the choice of such skeletal, paving legislation to deliver it.

Like the relevant committees of your Lordships’ House, we believe that the balance leans toward the secondary legislation route far more than it should. I will not use the same socio-religious language that the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, just used; I will use guard- rails rather than commandments. There need to be guard-rails in this legislation. There are other issues around alignment, which will come up mostly in the fourth group of amendments, but the bulk of our discussions will be on guard-rails—that is, what guidance should be in the legislation so that, when secondary legislation comes, it has some sense of purpose around what we are seeking to achieve. That will be our approach.

I shall now speak to Amendments 113 and 133; I thank the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe and Lord Anderson, for their support. I should say that, in a debate on a different Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, described me as a nuisance. Now, he has described me as a softie. I am not sure that I shall welcome his support in future, but the point is that we are trying to find a middle way. In a sense, I agree with some of what the noble Lords, Lord Frost and Lord Anderson, said: we are somewhere in the middle with the amendment, so perhaps we are finding the right place for it.

As we have heard, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee was very clear about this Bill; I have chosen different quotes from everybody else, thank heavens. The committee said:

“We recognise the need for this Bill to delegate some legislative powers”.


So do we. It continued:

“However … skeleton legislation should only be used in the most exceptional circumstances and where no other approach would be reasonable to adopt. This is because … it ‘signifies an exceptional shift in power from Parliament to the executive and entails the Government, in effect, asking Parliament to pass primary legislation which is so insubstantial that it leaves the real operation of the legislation to be decided by Ministers’”.


That is the guard-rail I was talking about.

We had this debate so many times in the previous Parliament. In a sense, it is disappointing that we are having it again. The DPRRC said that

“the Bill provides for almost all of the substance of product regulation and metrology to be provided for by Ministers in regulations under the new powers, and little or nothing to be settled under the fuller Parliamentary scrutiny given to Bill provisions”.

The DPRRC said that it remained concerned, and we have heard about those concerns, that

“so little of the policy is included in this skeleton Bill and so much is instead left to delegated legislation which will be subject to a much lower level of Parliamentary scrutiny”.

We know that, and have debated it many times. In some cases, some might say that it gets almost no real, meaningful parliamentary scrutiny, as long as statutory instruments cannot be amended. As the committee said:

“Parliament will be unable to amend that delegated legislation and the only options available to both Houses will be to accept it or reject it”.


We know that rejection, essentially, never happens.

We have also heard that the scope of these powers is not constrained by any requirements for consultation, for criteria to be met or for meaningful preconditions to be satisfied. That is why I am proposing Amendment 133, with the noble Lords’ support. I will say a little more about that shortly.

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[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

Is the noble Lord aware of the letter dated 28 October from the Minister, Justin Madders, of the other place, to the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, the chairman of the DPRRC, on these specific issues? It says:

“We recognise the Committee’s concerns that the powers in the Bill to amend or repeal primary legislation may appear as though we are intending to replace existing primary legislation with secondary legislation and accept that we should have given more provenance to the fact that our intentions are limited and specific and the powers in the Bill are limited accordingly”.


Does the noble Lord not think it unprecedented for a Minister to write about a Bill that is before this House?

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I am not a student of parliamentary history, so I do not know if it is an unprecedented letter, but that was a helpful intervention, and I thank the noble Lord for that.

[Baroness Crawley (Lab)]

I believe that the sentence that was just read out was in the report from the Government to the Delegated Powers Committee as well. It is not unprecedented is what I am saying.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I feel that I am standing in the middle of a perfectly good debate between the noble Baroness and the noble Lord. Perhaps we can reconcile it in some other way.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

In the Division Lobby, perhaps.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

If they find themselves in the same Division Lobby, but that is rather unlikely.

For this reason—the reason that I spoke of some time ago—I am proposing Amendment 113, which seeks to remove Clause 9(4) from the Bill. In the view of the committee and of your Lordships, this is the main offending clause, as it essentially grants Ministers unlimited powers. That is why we are proposing that amendment.

Amendment 133 harks back to an amendment for which many of the Minister’s colleagues and of those on these Benches voted during the passage of the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill, as it is very similar to an amendment that was tabled then. It is relatively self-explanatory, and it was explained even better by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson. I suggest that it imports some sensible consultation into the secondary legislation process without overburdening that process.

That may be the Minister’s response. He may say that this is bureaucratic and a lengthy process, to which I would say, to some extent, “So what?” This legislation does not have to be a breathless process; it is supposed to get it right. Many of your Lordships will have witnessed statutory instruments that come back to correct previous statutory instruments. I know of one case when we got into three or possibly four statutory instruments before we were presented with something that was acceptable. A bit of time, consultation and reflection gives us a chance to make regulation that is better and achieves what is intended.

I do not think this is an overwhelming process; it is about careful, purposeful regulation and proper consultation during that process. To an extent, that goes some way to dealing with some of the issues in the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor—who has now made it from her transport system to her place—in fact in a rather more inclusive way, covering large portions of the Bill.

I will speak briefly to Amendment 132, also in my name, which I do not believe is controversial. Again, it continues the theme of the retained EU law Bill. As memory serves, one of the last things your Lordships did when sending that Bill back in the previous Parliament was to add a reporting requirement, so I suspect that there may not be much argument on either side of this against having a window on what is going on in the regulatory process. Indeed, it should provide a platform for us to have a discussion on a regular basis about the effectiveness and necessity of regulation, which I am sure many noble Lords would welcome.

My noble friend Lord Foster will not speak but has deputed me to speak on his behalf, which is a great honour and responsibility. He also signed Amendment 126 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley. Amendment 129 in the name of my noble friend would ensure that an amendment that he will bring to the Committee later would be subject to the affirmative procedure. Like me, I think my noble friend would like to say that we do not think that the affirmative procedure is an adequate scrutiny measure, but it is marginally better than nothing.

Amendment 33 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, makes an interesting point. I would like to hear from the Minister about who and what they are seeking to address in Clause 2(3)(h), because it is very broad. What level of specificity should we expect, or is there none?

To close, there are substantive amendments in this group, and I suggest that Amendments 113 and 133 are two that should find their way forward with the Government’s help.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, we have been here before. When the Schools Bill was in front of us, I was very happily lined up next to Lord Judge in saying that this would not do, and I find myself in the same position today. We have a job to do in the House of Lords; it is the proper scrutiny of legislation. This Bill seeks to avoid that. Either the Bill needs to wait and rewrite itself in rather more detail when the Government know what they want to do, or we need some such provision as has been suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson and others to allow us a proper view of what will actually happen under this legislation. I very much hope that the Government will rethink, in one direction or the other.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

I think the Minister is trying to have it both ways. On the one hand, this committee is so long-winded that important and breathless regulation could not be made and, on the other hand, the regulations will be so small and insignificant that this committee does not need to observe them. It is either one thing or the other—and if there are emergency regulations, I am sure that we can put in place a process to necessarily short circuit and get that before your Lordships’ House quickly. So, the idea that somehow this would hold up vital regulation that that the country is waiting for overnight is something of an overstatement of the process of regulatory development.

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

I said earlier that we will look at this on a case-by-case basis. Some regulations will relate to very minor technical changes, so it really would be taking up too much parliamentary time for that, whereas other regulations may need a full scrutiny, and we will have avenues for that.

On the amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, although parliamentary oversight is crucial, requiring the sunsetting and renewal of regulations under Clause 1 would create legislative gaps and undermine regulatory certainty. This is particularly for essential product regulations that protect consumers or for products where their design, production and installation may take over a year. Ensuring consumer safety is a constant, ongoing concern. We also have to ensure that businesses have certainty. Having a sunset clause will not give certainty to businesses.

As I have explained, these are also highly technical regulations, covering matters as detailed as the formulae for measuring outdoor noise, for example, and I am not sure it would be a good use of parliamentary time to re-examine such specific matters on an annual basis.

Similarly, Amendments 40, 41, and 131 from the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, ensure that regulations incorporating EU law will be subject to parliamentary debate, with consideration of constitutional impacts. As Members of the House will be aware, a duty to assess the impacts of any new legislation on trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain already exists, and the responsible Minister must make a statement considering any impacts on trade between Northern Ireland and the UK internal market. To provide additional assurances, it is considered that the powers set out in Clause 5(2) provide a proportionate and appropriate parliamentary scrutiny process, where the regulations will often be highly technical and routine in nature.

Noble Lords, including those on the DPRRC, have questioned the Government’s intentions as regards consultation on changes made under the Bill’s powers. Amendment 126, tabled by my noble friend Lady Crawley, for example, proposes to establish a duty for the Secretary of State to publish regulations in draft form, and consult such persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.

I fully appreciate the importance of consultation and industry engagement. My department and the Department for Business and Trade have excellent relationships with industry and consumer groups and will continue to engage regularly with any stakeholders before changes are introduced. Indeed, we currently have two calls for evidence in circulation seeking stakeholder input, one on the introduction across the UK of a common charger for all our mobile phones and other portable electrical and electronic devices, and the other on measuring noise from outdoor equipment.

We have not included a statutory consultation requirement to allow for proportionate engagement with industry and consumer groups depending on the significance of the changes. This ensures agility in responding to emerging risks or market developments to protect UK consumers, as mentioned by the noble Earl, Lord Lytton. But I give a firm commitment to noble Lords that the Secretary of State will engage and consult with relevant stakeholders before legislating.

Amendment 33, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, and mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, refers to supply chains involved in products and the extent we need to regulate them. This can be complex, and it is important that we get it right.

Clause 2(3) sets out examples of the persons on whom product regulations may be imposed. However, this is not always clear. Depending on the nature of the product or its supply chain, product regulations may need to cover a whole variety of other actors involved in a product journey. For example, our regulations on the safety of lifts need to cover the people involved in their installation as well as their manufacture, and regulations on recreational craft cover private importers in addition to the usual supply chain actors.

We also need to ensure that rapidly changing business models cannot be exploited, allowing bad actors to exploit good business by defining themselves out of regulation. For this reason, Clause 2(3) is an inclusive list, not an exhaustive list, of persons on whom regulations can be imposed. Clause 2(3)(h) further clarifies that regulations can apply to anyone carrying out activities in relation to a product.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I beg your Lordships’ leave, and I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, for taking over his amendment here, but the wording of Clause 2(3)(h) is

“any other person carrying out activities”.

All the other items refer to the activity of the sale and marketing of that product. This does not refer to it but any person carrying out activities unspecified. For example, if I were repairing a product, would I be in the scope of the Bill? I could be, but I do not think that that is the purpose of the Bill. There needs to be some modification of that language—I think the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, is shrewd in putting that up—which focuses on the development and marketing of the product. Otherwise, it is any person doing anything to it.

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for that point. As I see it, it is the whole manufacturing of the product itself. For example, 3D printers are getting cheaper and cheaper on the market, and anyone can make anything from a 3D printer. So we need a regulation that covers someone who sells the printer, someone who supplies the plastic that goes into the printer and whoever makes that. Unless the noble Lord is mistaken, perhaps I and officials could have a private conversation with him and the noble Lord, Lord Jackson.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I think we better had.

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

To conclude, I hope that I have been able to provide assurances on all these matters and I assure noble Lords that the Government have carefully considered—

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Moved by

[Lord Fox]

3: Clause 1, page 1, line 6, leave out “or effectively” and insert “, effectively and safely”
Member’s explanatory statement
The Amendment ensures that regulations relating to the marketing of use of products in the UK may have the purpose of ensuring that products are safe.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, Amendment 3 is part of group 3, which focuses on the safety of marketed products; we are focusing now on safety. In a sense, the debate on the previous group of amendments demonstrated why the skeletal nature of the Bill needs flushing out. Alongside the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, and my noble friend Lord Foster, I hope we can investigate a little how we can flesh out the Bill on the subjects of health, safety and the environment.

Both Amendment 3 and Amendment 95, which is also in my name, seek to add some purpose to the Bill so that future regulations will be within the guard-rails we talked about earlier. Amendment 3 would simply insert safety as an objective for achievement for the regulations caused by the Bill. There are two purposes to this amendment: one is to try to ensure that, in future, the products regulated are safe, and the other is to allow the Minister to explain how reducing or mitigating risk works in the context of product safety. It seems to me that there is a glaring difference between the two, and I look forward to the Minister explaining how this legislation came to be written in this way.

Clause 1(4) goes on to define risk with language that implores the concept of safety, which is of course helpful. However, under the terms of Clause 1 as currently drafted, any danger to the health or safety of a person—or a domestic animal; the Minister knows that I am keen to know which animals are domestic and which are not, and why non-domestic animals should be subject to danger when domestic animals are not—needs only to be reduced, because Clause 1(1) comes before Clause 1(4). Surely the objective should be to eliminate risk.

If I was selling a trapeze kit for a seven year-old that was 30 feet from the ground, I could of course say that I had reduced the risk by including a mattress to put underneath it, but is this safe, and has sufficient mitigation been observed? I understand that there is no such thing as absolute safety. However, I contend that, if the purpose of the Bill is, first and foremost, risk reduction or mitigation rather than safety, it is pitching the objective of regulations too low. I hope that is an understandable albeit rather complex explanation as to why I am moving this amendment.

Amendment 95 also focuses on safety. It simply spells out some considerations for future regulations made under the Act—namely, that they

“must have regard for consumer safety and wellbeing, and environmental sustainability”.

How could anybody object to those aspirations? Looking forward, we could leave it there and deal with the second part of this amendment in a different way. We will certainly come back to some of this in other groups but, at this point, I chose to add the specific issue of the disposal of chemicals and lithium-ion products because disposal is an important part of—

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Fox, was in full flow. He may resume on Amendment 3.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I was not in full flight; I was merely jogging along the runway.

I have talked to Amendment 3 already. Amendment 95 also focuses on safety, and simply spells out some considerations for future regulations to be made under the Act—namely, that they must have regard for consumer safety and well-being, and environmental sustainability. As I said before, how could anybody disagree with that comforting thought?

Looking forward, we could leave it there and deal with the second part of the amendment in a different way, but I chose to add some specific points around the disposal of chemicals and of lithium-ion products. Given that this is Committee, I want to probe the Minister on how he regards the issue of disposal within the context of the Bill, which is why I included those parts. In a sense, there are two ways of looking at Amendment 95. One is the writing in of an undertaking that consumer safety, well-being and environmental sustainability will be a key part of future regulation. The other is to understand a little more how the Government regard disposal. There will be other times when bits of this are debated, but I am clear in my mind that we must consider the end of life of products that this Bill will eventually regulate. The hardest part of that is what happens to chemicals and batteries.

I hope the Minister will agree, but I fear he may suggest that this should be managed through regulation that we have not yet seen. It would be helpful at least to understand how the Government would go about these things. Regulation is where details lie. I come back to the idea that we need guard-rails to indicate how regulation will be developed and otherwise. That is what we would expect in primary legislation. The principles, in this case for the safety of marketed products, should be set out in primary legislation. I beg to move.

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[The Minister of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath) (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to respond to this particularly interesting debate. I, too, welcome the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, to his new position. I must say, the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe and Lord Sandhurst, seem to have undergone a conversion, certainly since the former’s time in the Department for Business. I have not been able yet to count the number of regulations in primary legislation that the noble Lord took through but, given that he was a Home Office Minister and given the Home Office’s—how shall I put it?—productive record in producing legislation in Parliament, I hasten to suggest that it was quite a few.

Clearly, behind that is an important consideration about the shape of the Bill and why we need a regulation-making power. On the other hand, the Government would say to noble Lords that the intention is to use those regulations proportionately on the back of the policy consultation that has just taken place. We see here, in a sense, a tension between those noble Lords who wish to make sure that the legislation covers areas of concern—we have heard about the areas of concern for the noble Lords, Lord Foster and Lord Fox—and those noble Lords who feel that the regulation, or the power given here to Ministers through regulation, goes too wide. Clearly, a balance needs to be drawn.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

There is no dichotomy. We do think that the powers are too wide but part of what we want to do is channel those powers by making the sort of suggestions to which the Minister just referred.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I was hoping to assure the noble Lord that the way the Bill is constructed should give him comfort in relation both to the issues he has raised around safety and to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Foster. Clearly, we think that consumer safety is very important. It is central to the Bill and a key component of our product regulation.

The Bill as drafted seeks to uphold a high standard of consumer protection and guarantees that the risks associated with products are minimised; Clause 118 provides for this. Although some products have risks that may be reduced through improvements to the design or clear warnings, others may be so dangerous that they should never be allowed to be sold in the first place. Baby self-feeding pillows are an example of this. They were recalled by the Office for Product Safety & Standards in 2022 due to the fact that the risks they presented could not be mitigated.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, referred to Clause 1(1)(a), which refers to “reducing or mitigating risks”. We believe that that wording puts safety at the heart of the Bill while permitting regulations to acknowledge the wider spectrum of risk. This concept of a wider spectrum of risk covers the point that the noble Lord was trying to make.

That really is the same response as the one to Amendment 10, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, to which the noble Lord, Lord Sandhurst, referred—essentially, how the Bill explains the term “risk”. My noble friend Lord Leong explained how the Bill puts product safety, and reducing the risks associated with it, at its heart. That includes risks to the health and safety of persons, and Clause 10 makes it clear that “health” can refer to the physical or mental health of a person.

I understand what the noble Lord, Lord Sandhurst, was saying. He was concerned about the wide scope of the Bill, particularly Clause 1(4). However, in a sense, we have to capture in the Bill a definition wide enough to allow us to deal with some of the circumstances that noble Lords have raised. The aim is to be comprehensive but also proportionate. The noble Lord said that the Minister could just do this willy-nilly, but the fact is that regulations have to go through Parliament. He knows that in your Lordships’ House, one Member, even on a statutory instrument under the negative procedure, can ensure that a debate takes place. To come back to the words he used, at the very least for Ministers that can be a challenging and extensive process. A regulation will not be produced without full consultation as well. I would therefore argue that this is not an overweening power of the Executive; it is a sensible balance whereby we try to set out a broad enough definition to cover the kind of risks that noble Lords are concerned about. However, because it has to go through a parliamentary process and a consultation process before that, there are sufficient safeguards to ensure that any future Government or Ministers are not overriding in the way that the noble Lord suggested.

Clause 1(4) also ensures that damage to property is also included within the meaning of risk, meaning that regulations made under the Bill can be made for the purposes of mitigating risks to property, including the operability of other products. I can say to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, therefore, that the Bill captures the spectrum of risks that products may present to the health and safety of people and their property.

I also emphasise that not every element of our product safety framework is focused entirely on safety in the traditional sense. Our current regulatory framework covers a wide range of topics. This includes the use of radio spectrum, the ergonomics of protective gear and noise emissions from some outdoor machinery, such as concrete breakers and lawn-mowers. A number of our existing regulations, such as those covering fireworks and pressure equipment, also cover risks to domestic animals. By the way, I point out to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, that that is why domestic animals are mentioned in the clause; it is also for this reason that we cover the interoperability of products and their susceptibility to electromagnetic disturbance, along with the risks to domestic animals, as I said.

Amendment 7, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Foster, would create in the Bill a category of high-risk products where regulations can apply across the board. He worries that the Bill is too discretionary. I understand where he is coming from.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, as a fox, I take the subject of wild animals somewhat to heart. To some extent the Minister has covered my concerns, particularly around disposal, which is important, so I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 3.

Amendment 3 withdrawn.

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[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, with the explicit kind invitation of the noble Lord, Lord Russell, I rise to provide an environmental perspective and broadly support Amendments 17 and 127. Since it is the first time I have spoken in Committee, I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, to his new role. Given the range of subjects I cover, we have discussed many things before and we will have new subjects to cover. I also apologise to the Minister: I was aware of the long time that he devoted to consultation; like the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, however, transport interfered with my attendance. There is a lot of it around, I am afraid.

I will comment broadly on the amendments introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Frost, and others on this side of the Committee. I am not in favour of all those amendments. I suspect it will not surprise many people to hear that but I suggest respectfully to the noble Lord that he might be picking the wrong battlefield when it comes to tethered bottle tops. I am not sure that being the noble Lord in favour of litter is something that he would like to adopt, given that if you look, for example, at a marine conservation study from 2023, bottle tops were the third most littered item found on beaches. Indeed, the NGO Seas At Risk found it was the third most common plastic item in the seas, causing damage to wildlife. So I suggest a small, practical and sensible measure. If the noble Lord is finding it difficult to manage these new bottle tops, there is a TikToker whose handle is @andreilifehack. He has 8 million followers and a neat little trick of how to manage a tethered bottle top. I should be happy to share that link with the noble Lord.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Russell, I am going to take a moderate, practical approach to this. Picking up the point he made about the advantages to businesses, we particularly look at small and medium enterprises in the UK, which have suffered enormously and lost a huge amount of trade following Brexit. Regulatory confusion and uncertainty does not help them, whereas larger businesses may be able to cope. The certainty that his amendment could help to provide would be useful to those small and medium-sized enterprises.

Picking up on environmental health and, indeed, more broadly, the one-health aspect of this and being pragmatic—the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, focused on chemical regulation and as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, has amendments on that later in the Bill, I am not going to get into the detail of that now—harmful chemicals and industrial processes are damaging public health in the UK. We have huge problems. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, referred to the state of our rivers, then there is air pollution and the contamination levels in our food. All these things have big impacts on public as well as environmental health. Again being pragmatic and thinking about the fact that both the two largest parties in your Lordships’ House often reflect on the number of people who are not in employment because of ill health and who are not contributing to the economy as a result, taking steps to improve public health, and environmental health as part of that, is an extremely pragmatic step. As the noble Lord, Lord Browne, said, we are trailing significantly behind the EU in important areas of that.

I said I would be brief, so I will stop there because I have more to say on these areas in the next group.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

As noble Lords can probably imagine, I have been looking forward to this group for ages, and I thank noble Lords for not disappointing. I put my name to Amendments 17 and 127 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Russell, and tabled my own Amendment 94. I think the valedictory remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, about leaving this Bill may have been premature because Amendment 16, which is group 9, explicitly deals with the REACH issue, which I know he is so passionate about. I would like him to join me in probing the REACH elements of this, so I hope he can put off his exit from the Bill.

The Prime Minister, the Chancellor and others have stated that they wish to re-engage with our largest market, which is the EU. Their aim, and our aim on these Benches, is to remove friction to make life easier for British business. Thereby costs will be kept to a minimum, markets will be more accessible and growth, which we all agree is vital for our future, can be more easily achieved. I was delighted today when the Treasury spokesperson, the noble Lord, Lord Livermore, endorsed the role of this Bill in helping the Government make those moves to re-engage with the EU. It was reassuring that he sees the importance of this Bill in that process. That is a very good mark to put on what we are doing.

We heard some excellent speeches from the noble Lords, Lord Russell, Lord Browne and Lord Kirkhope, in favour of the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Russell. The UK Government are introducing legislation to guide the future regulation of standards for thousands of products when they are sold in the UK market. It should go without saying that creating different standards for UK businesses hoping to sell in both the UK and the EU works counter to this. Consistent standards that apply across both markets will give business the ability and certainty to sell in both those markets.

Never mind the dolphins. The noble Lord, Lord Frost, brought up the issue of tethered bottle tops. As far as I am aware, there is no regulation in this country to require tethered bottle tops. The reason we have them is because business knows how costly it would be to have two forms of a drink being sold in one market here and one market there. Business understands, even if some noble Lords do not, the true cost of having two different regulations. When it can do without them, it does, and the one it chooses is that of the biggest market, which is very rarely in the United Kingdom.

This legislation is an opportunity for the Government, if they move in the right direction, to reduce the red tape and the bureaucracy that the current version of Brexit has created for British business. We should be under no illusion that Brexit has made it much harder for businesses to export into the European Union.

The wording of this amendment does not bind the hands of Government. As noble Lords have observed, there is absolutely the opportunity to diverge and move away from the regulations in the European Union, if that is to the advantage of the United Kingdom. This is a common-sense amendment that provides regulatory certainty for UK businesses by requiring a default of alignment with EU regulations and a process for parliamentary scrutiny, if or when Ministers determine that divergence from such regulation would be in the best interests of the UK. That is what business tells us it wants—and I hope that the questions that the noble Lord, Lord Russell, asked will continue with that. It also seems to be what the public wants. A poll published today in the i newspaper says that when people were asked where was more important to Britain economically, 57% opted for Europe, with 34% opting for the US, for example. There are lots of good reasons for the Government to support these amendments, because they provide a foundation for economic growth by ensuring that businesses can plan and invest with confidence about where the regulatory regime is going and what kind of regulations are going to apply in the United Kingdom.

Before I come very briefly to Amendment 94, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Browne, I could not help but be lured into addressing some of the comments made by the noble Lords seated just behind me. The comments of the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, were very interesting. His comments about the environment and how appropriate it is to take into consideration things such as deforestation were interesting, and I shall be interested to see whether the Opposition Front Bench endorse the comments that he made, or whether they will distance themselves from them—because I think that is quite important.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

For someone who is usually very astute, who listens to my views and is very kind in saying that they are interesting, I think that the noble Lord may have got the proverbial wrong end of the stick. I was not making a value judgment on whether it was appropriate to put environmental standards in this Bill. The substantive kernel of my comments was that it was unclear as to what the definition of environmental standards was—it was not saying that they were good or bad for things such as deforestation.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I may have misunderstood—I shall certainly look at Hansard afterwards. But it would be useful for the Opposition Front Bench to explain where they sit in that regard.

I always listen to the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, carefully, but I was confused on a couple of issues that she used as examples. The first example was a very long discussion of digital regulation in the European Union—but digital regulation is not a part of this Bill. The second example was the CPTPP, which we all know is not designed to have mutually enforced standards—standards are not a part of the CPTPP, so I am not sure how this Bill reflects on that at all. This is probably a conversation that we can have outwith this debate, because I am speaking to the point—the point being that we can have trade deals with all sorts of places, multilateral and bilateral, with or without taking into consideration alignment with the EU. However, we cannot have trade in the EU if we do not have the right regulations. That is the point on which I wanted to end, in that regard.

I turn briefly to Amendment 94, which is simply a probing amendment to understand how the Government will monitor and approach the developing international standards. To some extent we have heard about issues around whether we should adopt those standards, but we should certainly understand them—that is my thing—and we should know what standards are governing the products that are coming into our country and how they relate to our standards. Clearly, we are importing a lot of things from a lot of places that are not in the EU, from around the world, and we really need to understand under what level of governance those international standards are maintaining the sorts of things that we care about within product regulation.

To close, the noble Lord, Lord Russell, has done this Committee a great service in tabling his amendments; I am very pleased to be one of their co-signatories.

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[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 5 I will also speak to Amendments 28, 30, 50, 115 and 125, which are in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Fox. I am very aware of the time and the risk of a vote being called, so I am abbreviating this on the understanding that we may be able to have discussions later.

In the interests of time I did not speak on the first group, but the noble Lord, Lord Fox, spoke about this Bill—rather than being a framework Bill or one that is filled with Henry VIII powers—as providing guard-rails. Many will see the amendments in this group as providing a set of environmental guard-rails. The noble Lord, Lord Sandhurst, said that the Bill needed policy direction, and that is essentially what these amendments do.

I take the Minister’s point about there being a level of detail that is not appropriate to include in legislation rather than regulation. I spent this morning with Westminster Forum Projects talking about deposit return schemes and extended producer responsibility. I learned about RAM—recyclability assessment methodology. Those are things that certainly need to be in the regulations, but they need to be the guard-rails here.

These amendments will be classed as environmental amendments, but they are also amendments about things such as the right to repair and tackling utterly unnecessary planned obsolescence, which is deeply costly to consumers. These are also amendments that start to address the cost of living crisis and are real principles for people today. I was going to go through the amendments in considerable detail, but the arguments for right to repair and against planned obsolescence are really obvious so, given the time, I will address just the circular economy elements, which run as a line through these amendments.

It is worth saying that the environmental improvement plan contains a target to reduce residual waste, excluding construction waste, to 437 kilogrammes per capita by 2028, but in 2022 this figure stood at 558.8 kilogrammes. That was only 2.8% down on 2019. In three years, that was all the progress that had been made towards the target of circularity, which is only three years away.

The noble Lord, Lord Frost, who is no longer in his place, was talking about EU rules on deforestation. In 2021, UK consumption was associated with 30,000 hectares of deforestation, with all the climate and nature impacts that we understand. If we look at the climate aspect, the treatment and disposal of waste resources is separately responsible for 5% of all UK greenhouse gas emissions. The cost of that treatment and disposal of waste is borne very often by the public, when actually a few companies are profiting from the production.

I briefly mention, because I promised to do so, that the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, who is unable to be with us for this group, wanted to stress the importance of construction. Although it is excluded from that waste target, there are difficulties because so many problems with, and failures of, design are happening in construction. We all know about the safety impacts but they also have huge environmental impacts—and cost impacts, about which many of us know from working with builders.

In the interests of time, I shall stop there. I beg to move Amendment 5.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak very briefly on Amendments 30, 115 and 125, which are in my name. As the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, observed, they are designed to produce guard-rails that significantly strengthen the environmental and sustainability part of the Bill. It seems inconceivable to me that legislation of this kind would not carry these requirements.

Amendment 30, which is the substantive one, would add new subsection (2A) to Clause 2 in order to ensure that future regulations under the Act include provisions that relate to environmental impact assessments, the circular economy and granting consumers the right to repair products. On the latter, despite attempts, the tendency is to continue to find products manufactured with increasingly complex modules that defy cost-effective repair or sensible re-use, which should be an important part of the future economy. This amendment does not dot “i”s or cross “t”s, because that is the role of the actual regulation, but it sets a standard that we should be looking at for the regulation process. That is it; I could go into more detail, but I do not think I have to.

Amendments 115 and 125 are definitions that would help explain what we mean by “circular economy” and “right to repair”. I hope that His Majesty’s Government will find some sympathy with all of this group and find a wording. I am not proud about my words; I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, is the same. Let us find a way of putting these proposals into primary legislation because these are really important issues.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I will be brief. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for introducing this group. I assure her and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, that we on these Benches want to see a bright future for our green and pleasant land. That said, we have some concerns about these amendments.

The first relates to the themes that the Committee has been exploring throughout this session. The Bill confers, as we have discussed at length, extensive Henry VIII powers on the Secretary of State. These amendments are broadly drawn and, we feel, have considerable holes in them. Given the wide Henry VIII powers conferred on the Secretary of State, it is not hard to imagine a world where a crazed zealot occupies the position of Secretary of State—it is not hard to think of those, is it?—and decides to apply these provisions in extreme ways without any scrutiny. We really should not lay ourselves open to that. These decisions should be subject to democratic scrutiny. Opinions will be sure to differ on the definitions of some of the phrases in these things. That is not to say they are wrong; it is just that opinions can, and will, differ.

My second point is that we are concerned that the amendments would impose significant costs on businesses. They will stifle competition and harm growth; obviously, this comes at a time when businesses are grappling with significant challenges. Although the proposals appear virtuous on the surface, in practice, they represent an unnecessary and impractical burden on businesses and consumers. That comes at a time when the country needs growth—a point that has obviously been acknowledged by the Government.

These amendments would create additional regulatory burdens, which would hamper industries already struggling with economic headwinds. I also note—I will expand on this theme in later debates—that the market is already supplying many of the solutions sought through these amendments. We believe that, for the many businesses —especially small and medium-sized enterprises—that are already struggling due to various factors, the cost of compliance with these rigid requirements could be devastating. It is not just businesses that will be affected because, of course, those costs will be passed on to consumers. Before any amendments in this group can be considered, surely we must assess the potential unintended consequences for businesses and consumers.

We have a strong record of delivering improvements for our environment but we on these Benches are clear that we should avoid overburdensome regulation on businesses. That said, informing consumer choice is an important component of efficient markets so, notwithstanding our objections, Amendments 28 and 30 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Fox, have some merit. He is channelling his Orange Book foundations here. Overall, we would not support these amendments, for the reasons that I have outlined.

Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Lord Fox Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 27th November 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

I rise briefly to support the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness. I also draw the Minister’s attention to the fact that when I moved Amendments 2 and 27 in an earlier group, on the issue of installation, I pointed out that in respect of the potentially very dangerous lithium-ion batteries used in EV charging-point systems, for example, and solar panel array storage batteries, there is currently no requirement on the competent person scheme individual who is installing those systems to notify relevant authorities of the installing of those batteries.

I pointed out at the time that lithium-ion batteries, about which we will no doubt speak a great deal when we come to group 5, can create huge fires at high temperatures and very toxic gases; I also pointed out that, crucially, they cannot be put out by the use of water. That is why it is so important that the relevant authorities, particularly the emergency services, are aware of the current location of such devices. The current arrangements require the individual house owner to make such a notification. My amendment argued that it should be the responsibility of the installer not only to check on the safety of the entire system but to make that notification. For that reason, I am particularly supportive of the noble Baroness’s amendment.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, had I been a little shrewder on the grouping, I would have included in this group Amendment 106, which we will debate in the antepenultimate group of the Bill, as it also addresses Clause 7 and goes after the same objective of information sharing. Whether it is lithium-ion batteries or some other danger, it is important that we learn from the problems that are established and that the right people can get that information, so that learning process can start.

I suggest that, whether it is the process set down by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, which we support, or something like my Amendment 106, or something that the drafters sitting behind the Minister can do much better than we can, there needs to be a point in this Bill about a process of information sharing, whether it is set out in detail, as in my amendment, which talks about who or what those bodies are, or whether it is a more general duty, as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has set out. We support these proposals, and I hope that we can have a debate next time. I hope that the Minister will acknowledge the need to understand dangers, learn from them and move to be able to prevent them.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for her important amendments. I, too, am looking forward to exploring the meaning of “relevant authorities” in the next group. If this is really about product safety, of course we have to have regard to unsafe products, and of course that information ought to be shared with the emergency services, so I have absolutely no problem in supporting all those amendments.

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I urge the Government to take the amendments on enforcement very seriously. We realise that the Government’s intentions are good, but unless the clauses are heavily rewritten, we will return to them on Report.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, very briefly, and complying with time constraints, I warned your Lordships and the Government when speaking to another group that the skeletal nature of the Bill allows everybody to superimpose all their worst suppositions on it. We have just heard a thorough example of that from the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe.

I am of course here to help. In considering previous Bills, it helped when the Government published their draft code of practice between Committee and Report, so that we could get an inkling of their thinking. Doing so will not change our need to address the skeletal nature of the Bill, but it might allay some of our worst fears about the intention, and guide us in wording the amendments we could table on Report to help tie things down a little more, along the lines of the fears outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe. Can the Minister say whether a code of practice is planned, and undertake to show us a draft of it between now and Report?

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their detailed consideration of the Bill, and especially the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, for his thorough exposition of his amendments, based on his experience at the Home Office and previously as an enforcement officer. He obviously knows a lot about the various amendments he has tabled.

I hope to clarify the Government’s position and explain the reasons behind the approach we have taken. First, I will address the use of delegated powers in the Bill, noting the concerns of the Committee.

Product regulation must legislate for innumerable kinds of products, ranging from heavy machinery to children’s toys. This is best done through regulation, due to the amount of very technical and scientific detail required. In some cases, sectors can be covered by general requirements. However, often they require specific tailored regulations that recognise their individual requirements. For example, a penalty for failure to properly mark a product “harm suffered” is likely be different when comparing a highly sensitive product in a nuclear energy installation versus a lower-risk product.

To proportionately reflect the dangers of a sector, requirements, enforcement powers, offences and penalties must be tailored. This is how the regulators operate at the moment, with over 2,500 pages of technical product safety regulation on the statute book. Alongside reviewing this existing legislation, we will need to consider on an ongoing basis whether there are emerging products or hazards that would benefit from specific rules.

Product regulation is a regulatory area that we have seen go through significant disruptive change with the growth of e-commerce, and this looks set to continue with AI and 3D printing. The activities conducted by different kinds of businesses have changed as well. The spine of the existing system was codified in primary legislation based on bricks-and-mortar businesses, and that led to uncertainties and gaps in duties, penalties and enforcement powers.

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[Lord Leong (Lab)]

Personally, I do not see why there is anything wrong with it—but in this Bill itself, I am trying to say that we need the flexibility. I just have to continue.

Further clarification of powers and functions would restrict the ability for enforcement regulations to provide powers needed to enforce new product and metrology regulations. We must enable flexibility so that we do not create gaps in enforcement powers now or in the future. We intend to plug the gap in enforcement by making regulation applicable at the border, so that enforcement can take place before unsafe or non-compliant products are sold.

I understand the good intentions behind these amendments but, equally, I hope that I have resolved the concerns that led to them. The Bill provides simple, flexible powers that will help enforcement authorities to fulfil their roles. I submit that we have balanced parliamentary scrutiny with the necessary flexibility in a way that best serves the rule of law. It is for these reasons that I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I asked a specific question about publishing the code of practice in advance. Can I have an answer, please?

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Moved by

[Lord Fox]

34: Clause 2, page 3, line 26, at end insert—
“(d) the licensing of voluntarily committed standard essential patents which protect technology essential for implementing technical standards;(e) limiting the remedies available when a patent mentioned in paragraph (d) is enforced.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to ensure that essential software for regulated products which relies on standard-essential patents (SEPs) is shielded from unfair legal abuse.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I also support Amendment 35 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. As opposed to the last group, which focused on a large number of slightly different issues, these two amendments focus on one area and, given that they are only in the names of the noble Lord and myself, you can be sure that they will be technical in content.

I am sure the Minister has often wondered why his mobile phone can operate on Bluetooth in any country of the world, and why the automated vacuum cleaner that my noble friend Lord Foster so ably described in the last session can pick up wireless instructions no matter where it is working. The answer is that sitting underneath all of those are things called standard essential patents, or SEPs. They are patents that are necessary to the implementation of a collectively-agreed technical standard—5G, wifi, Bluetooth and so on. Standardisation across communications technologies makes it possible for devices to work with one another wherever they are.

Connectivity is increasingly a part of the products that the Bill seeks to regulate, as we have heard. UK industry is at the forefront of developing connected products that aim to address some of the biggest issues that we face, including healthcare and climate change. The Bill is about ensuring product compliance with technical standards. Compliance or conformance with the technical standard can often be premised on the implementation of a particular technology; as I have said, wifi is an example. For a product to use the wifi logo and technology, its technical performance with the chip set has to be tested and certified. Bluetooth and other wireless technologies used for power management in the context of electric vehicle chargers and smart metering are all examples of where the technical standards of operation are underpinned by these SEPs.

I realise that the Bill is not about intellectual property, but it is about regulating the properties of things. Unless the situation of SEPs is fixed, those properties can be in a state of flux. SEPs should be treated differently from other patents, which is why we are introducing them into this debate.

Of necessity, as a result of a dominant market position, the SEP holders have to voluntarily commit to license their technologies on fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory terms. The licensing of SEPs is important in ensuring that UK businesses are able to use the most modern and effective versions of these technical standards. In practice, SEP holders often evade their voluntary commitments to license their patents fairly because of a lack of clarity over what constitutes fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory, caused by weaknesses in the UK’s legal framework. SEP holders can abuse their position as gatekeepers of these technical standards by using the threat of costly court action and injunctions to force potential licensees to accept excessive royalty demands or quit the market. That can effectively prevent smaller companies from entering into, and being able to operate in, a market. In the previous group, the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, asked whether the Bill was pro-innovation or anti-innovation. Unless we round up this issue on SEPs, I have to say that it is absolutely stifling innovation.

In most cases, SEP holders are well resourced and aggressive, while many licensees, especially SMEs, lack the knowledge and resources to defend their rightful position in court or push back against the mere threat of litigation. Increasingly, there is a third sector of people who buy up the rights to these patents and treat them as a revenue stream, whereby they go after and literally squeeze the people who have to use these SEPs. In essence, it becomes a secondary market for these things, without the necessary protections.

There are two issues. First, the availability of injunctions to the UK’s current SEP framework means that both small and large technical innovators who operate downstream of the primarily foreign SEP holders can be forced to accept excessive SEP licensing fees because they want to use this technology. The second problem is the lack of transparency: they quite simply do not know who holds these patents until they get an injunction through the mail. That is the problem. With the threat of injunctions and lack of transparency, UK manufacturers are frequently faced with a no-win situation. They have to either pay these fees or get out of the market, because they cannot afford to defend them at an injunction. This is in spite of the SEP holders making a voluntary commitment to license the SEPs on fair terms as part of the standard-setting process. So there is a problem.

The situation creates significant cost and uncertainty for some of the most innovative UK firms, it stifles innovation and, importantly, in the context of this Bill, it challenges the efficiency and effectiveness of products that rely on SEPs and are regulated by this legislation. That is why it is appropriate to have this discussion here today. The UK IPO is aware of issues concerning the licensing of such technology but to date has done nothing, or has insufficiently acted, to protect UK businesses that must use these technologies. This amendment is an opportunity for the Minister to commit to legislative action on SEPs to address the critical issues of products being threatened with exclusion from the people who need them, the imposition of unfair royalties and SEP licences being refused to companies that need them. I beg to move.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for explaining so expertly what standard essential patents—SEPs—are and how important they are to the use of legislation in specifying product requirements, which of course are directly linked to the standards that we will go on to talk about. We have previously talked about the importance of standard-setting, but there is no point in setting standards if they cannot be fulfilled, turned into product requirements and brought to the market—that is what we are talking about. In particular, the noble Lord was absolutely right to stress that we should be thinking in this legislation about how we can promote innovation. Addressing this issue is one of the central ways in which we can do that.

Our two amendments serve the same purpose. The only distinction is that I was trying to suggest, in this particular instance, the importance of taking a power and not attempting in the primary legislation at this point to specify precisely how that power should be structured, because it is necessary for there to be a full consultation about the changes that would need to be made—not least, probably, to the Patents Act itself. When we come back on Report, if we go down this path there may be a need to have a power to amend the Patents Act as well.

The point here is that, as the Intellectual Property Office itself said, SEPs will be

“of growing importance to the UK economy”.

This is not a small matter, and it is becoming more important because of connectivity, the internet of things and the multiple range of SEPs associated with many of these standards. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, is absolutely right about the problems that can emerge for companies, particularly SMEs, in understanding the visibility of SEPs and who holds them—and, for that matter, in being absolutely clear about which ones are essential and which are asserted to be so, but which are not in fact essential to the standard.

I shall not delay the Committee now, but I want to focus on the question of why we need a power. First, the Intellectual Property Office is trying to do its best within the powers available to it. In July, Ministers announced the establishment of the resource hub, which gives guidance in relation to SEPs and enables companies to understand the SEP ecosystem. However, that does not change some of the fundamental issues to which the noble Lord, Lord Fox, referred. There are licence holders who are delaying access to their patents, and who are using that as a mechanism to get terms that are not fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory. SMEs are finding it very difficult to know what FRAND terms look like in relation to many of these products.

There is another issue: not only the individual royalties that must be paid in relation to these licences, but the global royalties that need to be available. Although there is case law that can be looked at, it is very difficult for SMEs in particular to understand how that may be applied to them. Of course, there are global royalties being established through large cases, which delay access to this intellectual property for some of those who need to use it; they are therefore unable to know how viable their product may be.

These issues have been addressed in the European Union. At present, there is a regulation agreed between the European Commission’s proposal and the European Parliament, and it is awaiting the conclusions of the Council of Ministers. Let us just focus on that for two seconds. What does it do? It sets out that there needs to be transparency, a mandatory register, and the ability for an official body to undertake a reality check asking, in essence, whether something is actually essential to a standard. It facilitates fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory terms. It also delays for nine months the point at which any licence holder could go to court to secure an injunction for these purposes while there is a requirement for a negotiated process; indeed, it entertains the possibility that, under the regulation, this may relate not only to individual royalties for licences but to the aggregate of those royalties for licences. So there is a legal structure in the European Union for these purposes, in order to overcome what is otherwise, for SMEs in particular, an extremely difficult set of circumstances arising from case law for them to understand and interpret.

This is not a small problem for some SMEs. For example, I have been talking to Tunstall Healthcare, which I know well from its role in providing connectivity, particularly for people who require care at home; it looks after more than 100,000 of them. In order to access licences for 4G and wifi connectivity, it needs to negotiate many licences and to identify where they exist. A company called Bullet was trying to develop and market highly resilient smartphones, but it ceased trading, owing millions of pounds to SEP holders, which contributed to its inability to continue trading. So I think we need to act.

The IPO has said that it will respond to the consultation at the end of 2024—so any minute now. I am told, however, that that will not now happen in 2024. What I really want to hear from the Minister is, first, that this is a suitable Bill and a suitable opportunity to take a power—without specifying all the details of that power—to make provision in relation to SEPs. Secondly, I want to hear that the IPO and Ministers will undertake to respond to the consultation in the early part of next year, putting forward proposals for how the new power is to be used and inviting responses.

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[Lord Leong (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Fox and Lord Lansley, for their Amendments 34 and 35. When I saw the first amendment, I had to go and check what SEPs means. Now, after speaking to officials, I think I know a little bit and I welcome the opportunity to address the issues raised regarding software products that rely on standard essential patents, or SEPs.

These amendments go far beyond the intended focus of this legislation by expanding the scope of regulatory powers. Due to their complexity, the regulation of SEPs should not be reduced to a short provision in a Bill that was not drafted with the intention of regulating in this sphere. Any policy measures need to achieve a balance between rights holders being able to appropriately protect and enforce their rights, and users’ ability to access such technologies and innovations through fair and appropriate licensing forms.

However, I agree with the noble Lords that this is an important issue. The Intellectual Property Office has already engaged extensively with industry and business to determine whether any change to the framework for SEPs is necessary in order to ensure that businesses can license SEPs effectively and fairly. This engagement has included a call for evidence and views, and a questionnaire has been sent out to small and medium-sized enterprises. In response, the IPO has already launched a SEPs resource hub—an information resource that helps to address the very problem the noble Lords have identified. The IPO is also considering whether to consult formally next year on measures, as indicated by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and further to improve transparency in the SEPs ecosystem and enable more efficient dispute resolution. Any such consultation would be subject to ministerial decision, and we are currently working on that. In the meantime, I assure noble Lords that the IPO is continuing informal engagement with industry on both this matter and the SEPs ecosystem more generally. I hope that is reassuring to the Committee.

While I agree that this is an important issue, this Bill is not the right avenue to address the problems that the noble Lords raise. I therefore ask that they withdraw or do not press their amendments.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I sort of thank the Minister for his response, but not much, because I think he could have acknowledged that this is a problem, rather than that SEPs exist, because it is a problem. Whether or not the Bill is the solution to it, the Department for Business and Trade should have an interest in solving that problem, but it did not seem that there was much appetite for that. Perhaps the Minister could disabuse me of that by acceding to the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, to have a meaningful round table with the right people for us to further this discussion. If this is not the avenue to deal with it, we need something else, because it is a real and present problem that needs a meaningful solution.

While the efforts of the IPO are clear, the point of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley—I should call him my noble friend in this case—is that the IPO needs more power and something needs to be done. If it is not this, it needs to be something else.

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

I want to be very clear that the Department for Business and Trade wants to support businesses of all types and sizes, but we have to be fair as well, so as not to burden too many SMEs with regulations and financial costs. This area is being led by the IPO but, at the same time, there is a way that the Department for Business and Trade can engage with the IPO. I am than happy to arrange a meeting between the noble Lords, Lord Fox and Lord Lansley, and officials from the IPO and the Department for Business and Trade.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that offer, which I am sure we will take him up on. If the Government wish to unburden small and medium-sized businesses, solving this problem would be a slam dunk. With that, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 34.

Amendment 34 withdrawn.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

Briefly, I of course support these four amendments from my noble friends, but I will say a few words on Amendment 56. In a previous group, amendments tabled by me and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, on the circular economy and disposal, also touched on these issues and it would be worth while looking at those in conjunction with the amendments from my noble friend Lord Redesdale.

To give a bit of advice to my noble friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, made some interesting points about it being fulfilment centres rather than the actual online marketplace. In some cases, the supplier is foreign but the fulfilment centre is local. Perhaps there is some advice to take from the thoughts of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on that, as they seemed a way of bridging the issue of the supplier being a long way away in a different country, whereas the people dispatching the item are most definitely here. With those provisos, I reiterate my support for all four amendments.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I will be very brief. I found that a most interesting explanation of lithium-ion batteries and their various aspects. I confess to not being an expert at all, so it is very clear that I—and, I imagine, the general public—need to be better informed on this. I imagine that regulations will form an essential component of becoming better informed.

It was interesting how the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, said that he was worried about the scope of the Bill. This Bill will take pretty much anything you like—it is enormous—so I would not have too many concerns about that. I ended up, funnily enough, with a couple of questions, which we can perhaps discuss later. I am curious to know how much of the safety of these batteries is contingent on the way that they are stored, used and maintained. That would be an interesting subject to explore further.

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[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, members of the Committee will be aware that there are concerns relating to the suitability and safety of construction products, especially in the light of the Grenfell phase 2 report, and will know my professional interest in this area.

First, I pay tribute to the clerks in the Public Bill Office for their help in drafting this amendment, although its objectives and the rationale behind it are entirely my responsibility. I consider that the amendment speaks for itself in probing the Government’s intentions and resolve in bringing construction products specifically within the Bill’s scope, although they are not excluded, either by the Long Title or by the matters listed in the Schedule. My underlying purpose is to clarify this Bill’s specific focus in the objective regulation of a construction-related product’s inherent characteristics rather the nature of its use, particularly in combination with other products. To put it another way, it is concerned with the regulation, testing, certification and marketing of products for their specific stated use and application—namely, the aims of the Bill.

The British Board of Agrément—the BBA—is one of the main industry certifying bodies for construction products. In virtually all the BBA certificates I have looked at, it is made clear that the approval is for the specific use and application as presented. This is logical because behind every approval is an assessment or test of some kind that will be specific as to the proposed use. However, we know from the Grenfell phase 2 report how things can be misrepresented. Of course, none of this prevents misuse of some sort, or abuse, but it starts to clarify responsibility as applying to those who have true agency in the specification and use of products, especially where fire safety is concerned. I hope this gives the Minister an opportunity to confirm that, so far, I have got this right.

At the meeting with the noble Lord, Lord Leong, and officials, for which I thank him, it was suggested that while the provisions of the Bill cover construction products, in all probability any regulations would be made under a different legislative provision, such as the Building Safety Act 2022—so I looked in that Act for the word “regulation”. I got 650 hits, which sounds a bit like Henry VIII on steroids, I am bound to observe. I alighted on paragraph 10(1) of Schedule 11 to that Act which states:

“For the purposes of this Schedule, “safety-critical products” means construction products which are included in a list contained in construction products regulations”.


It is getting a bit circular, I suspect. Sub-paragraph (2) states:

“A construction product may only be included in a list under sub-paragraph (1) if … in the view of the Secretary of State any failure of the product would risk causing death or serious injury to any person”.


I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that I am right in believing that this is the relevant regulation-making measure that might be used in the Building Safety Act to implement some of the provisions of this Bill, if they are not implemented directly. If so, it has to be noted that the Building Safety Act relates to critical life-safety risks to persons, first and foremost. The Bill does not use that metric, so I consider that the relationship between this Bill and the BSA, for example, needs further clarification.

It has long been my professional assessment that if a building is robust, occupant safety is likely to be assured as well, but focusing on critical fire risk which interests itself only with occupants’ risks consigning them to significant risks of an emotional and financial nature if the building lacks durability and is effectively considered expendable. In terms of human life, that is absolutely the right approach, and I get that, but in terms of mercantile practice and peace of mind, it is a philosophy with gaps, especially if the general Building Safety Act approach is one of proportionality or tolerable risk—although I question by whose objective standards those might be measured, but that is another question.

So if I am correct, even allowing for the point that a building is not “product” as a term of art, why regulate such an important matter as construction products to be used in a residential block via different standards as compared with, say, those for a fridge-freezer or a washing machine? As set out in Clause 1(4)(c), we are concerned with a product that could “reasonably be foreseen” to cause damage to property. How is that, in the case of buildings under the BSA, a proportionate or tolerable risk to life? In the Government’s view, does the latter include the former? If so, I would be delighted to get confirmation of that; it is something that I tried to get hold of right the way through the then Building Safety Bill’s time before us. If not, how does the BSA afford the implementation of product safety in construction products?

Note if you will that the assemblage of products and processes used as someone’s home represents their place of safety. It is often their largest investment; it is also often incomparably more valuable an entity than most consumer products, both to them and in market terms. So standards and regulation matter very much. I invite the Minister to enlighten the Committee on this apparent legislative inconsistency.

Had this amendment been debated earlier in the evening, I might have been tempted at this point to have a little rant about British Standards being set behind a paywall—as well as the invidious nature of that when they are also embedded in regulation; the regulation is open source but the BS is not—but I will leave that matter in part to one side for the moment. I appreciate that some of the points I have mentioned go beyond what I discussed in the meeting with the Minister so, if he is unable to answer them right now, perhaps he could write to me before the next stage of the Bill. I beg to move.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I will briefly respond to the noble Earl. He is right to raise this issue, which is clearly important; we look forward to seeing how the Government respond to it. There are serious issues that need to be addressed somewhere. As has been observed by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, and others, the open nature of this Bill offers an opportunity for things like this to be properly discussed and to be, if not solved in this way, perhaps solved in another way.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, it is very good to respond to this debate. I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, sees that there is some advantage in the way that we have drafted the Bill.

I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for raising what is a really important matter. We all recognise that there are failings in the system by which construction products are tested, assured and made available for sale. The noble Earl described his amendment as probing whether the Government are prepared to use the powers in Clauses 1 and 2 to regulate products used in construction. The noble Earl has huge professional expertise. He referred to the BBA and the specific approval given but warned of the risk of misuse; I very much take that point.

The straightforward answer is that we think this issue is very important. We intend to bring forward robust regulatory reforms in order to provide confidence in the construction products regime and to ensure that only safe products are used in buildings and infrastructure. To that end, we also intend to ensure that the testing and assessment of products’ conformity must be undertaken by those who are competent, impartial and effectively held to account. We have committed to working with the sector on system-wide reform, including examining the institutions that play a key role in the construction products regime, so that businesses and, in particular, consumers can have confidence in the products and services they purchase. The proposed new clause to be inserted after Clause 2, through the noble Earl’s Amendment 46, would place a duty on the Secretary of State to use the powers and to make provision for construction products regulations within a year of Royal Assent of the Bill.

I turn now to the Building Safety Act 2022, about which the noble Earl made some interesting points. That Act already includes powers to introduce construction product requirements and regulations. We are exploring how best to use those available powers, including their sufficiency—I take his point on that—as part of considering system-wide reform. He will know that since the Grenfell tragedy in 2017 some action has been taken on construction products, but we know that more needs to be done.

In December 2018, regulations came into force that banned the use of combustible materials in and on the external walls of buildings over 18 metres. The national regulator for construction products was established in 2021 and leads on market surveillance and enforcement of construction product regulation across the UK.

The Government extended the period of recognition of CE marking for construction products in September this year to give the industry sufficient certainty to support supply chains and to allow time to address the inadequacies across the wider construction products regime, but we recognise that this action is piecemeal and does not go far enough. We have confirmed that we will respond to the Grenfell inquiry within six months. We are also committed to bringing forward proposals for system-wide reform of the construction products regulatory regime.

I have listened very carefully to the noble Earl’s analysis of the Building Safety Act and his suggestion that it is not sufficient for our purposes. We are considering this and I will write to him in some detail about the points he has raised. But to be fair to him, I have to say that this Bill does not specifically exclude construction products and that there could be an opportunity to use the Bill powers in the future should we discover that the Building Safety Act 2022 may be insufficient.

I hope that he will accept this as a positive response to the issues he has raised.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

My Lords, it is an enormous privilege to have been in a position to add my name to these two amendments and to have listened to the elegant description of the way in which they are meant to work, as explained by my noble and learned friend Lord Hope of Craighead.

I come to them from a slightly different perspective. The new Government have brought into being a desire to make the union work as a union by co-operation between the Governments in London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast. Looking particularly to Cardiff, one would have hoped that this is an ambition capable of easy realisation. These clauses give one an opportunity to mark that stated aim in very clear terms. It seems to me that if one looks at what the two clauses have brought about, which my noble and learned friend has so elegantly explained, one sees that they touch on areas of devolved competence, without any doubt at all, and there are legislative consent Motions before the respective devolved legislatures.

There are two areas, as my noble and learned friend has explained. One is consultation. I have never understood why across the board in areas such as this consultation is not mandatory. The previous Government were not very good at that; they did not uphold it properly, I regret to say. I hope they will now see a changed way through, and I very much hope this Government will accept the first amendment on consultation. I can see no argument whatever for not accepting that change.

The second area, as my noble and learned friend Lord Hope, explained, is common frameworks. He has explained how it is necessary to make the amendment, but I hope there is also something to the amendment that will breathe life back to common frameworks. It is fairly useful to go back to what was said in the communique issued after the heads of Government meeting in 2017:

“As the UK leaves the European Union, the Government of the United Kingdom and the devolved administrations agree to work together to establish common approaches in some areas that are currently governed by EU law, but that are otherwise within areas of competence of the devolved administrations or legislatures. A framework will set out a common UK, or GB, approach and how it will be operated and governed. This may consist of common goals, minimum or maximum standards, harmonisation, limits on action, or mutual recognition, depending on the policy area and the objectives being pursued. Frameworks may be implemented by legislation, by executive action, by memorandums of understanding, or by other means depending on the context in which the framework is intended to operate”.


Those were lofty ambitions. Regrettably, and it is not the occasion to go into it now, those ambitions were not properly realised. I pay especial tribute to what my noble and learned friend Lord Hope did when the United Kingdom Internal Market Act was promulgated in obtaining the clauses to which he has referred. It was only by his skill, diligence and considerable persistence—I say with respect—that we got these amendments through. Unfortunately, if there is not the spirit of co-operation—I regret that such spirit was not there for a lot of the past two or three years, although it came back towards the end, particularly under Mr Sunak’s Government—we cannot begin to hope for the lofty ambitions of a union where the Governments work together being realised again.

I hope that, because we have referred to common frameworks in this legislation, we will see them coming back. Much has been said about the need for co-operation and working together, but I think these two amendments are important because it is often said that men are judged not merely by words but by deeds—one could put it in a more colloquial phrase. It seems that these two amendments, drafted in the Government’s words, are and ought to be the deeds by which the Government show that they really mean to go ahead and operate on the basis of a union where, in these areas of devolved competence, there is co-operation but within a framework that permits divergence. Therefore, I very much hope that the principle of these amendments will be accepted, because it is so important to the future of the union.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Foster will speak to his Amendment 102 in a few minutes, but it makes sense to follow the noble and learned Lords with my comments on Amendment 47 and the two amendments in my name, Amendments 93 and 96.

It is an enormous pleasure and something of a responsibility to follow two absolutely fantastic speeches on this subject, and I am afraid that my mind did go back to the long nights of the internal market Bill and the tenacity—as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, set out—of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, in bringing his amendments forward, because a really important thing was eventually done there.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, referred to the danger of impinging on the devolved authorities. I will give just one practical example and this is not theoretical, because it is already something that the Welsh Government have raised. In their response, the Welsh Government concluded that

“there are relevant provisions in the Bill which, for the purposes of Standing Order 29, are within the legislative competence of the Senedd and therefore a Legislative Consent Memorandum (LCM) is required”.

I do not think that is disputed by the Government.

For example, the power within Clause 1(1)(a) could be used to reduce or mitigate risks presented by products that endanger the health of a person, distinct and separate from any risks to a person’s safety. The use of “health” in Clause 1(4) broadens the scope of how power could be exercised beyond simple product safety, which is a reserved matter, and enables provision to be made for public health purposes, which is an area within the Senedd’s legislative competence. This is just one example.

In their response document, the Welsh Government raise issues covering product regulations, product requirements, emergencies, information sharing, cost recovery, consequential amendment of certain Acts, interpretation, and the Schedule. Happily, the Welsh Government seem okay with Clauses 5 and 6, but the rest of the Bill forms a grey area around competence and responsibility.

Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Lord Fox Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 11th December 2024 Grand Committee

Finally, I shall briefly comment on Amendment 53. I commend the noble Lord in using the words “large language models”; they are not artificial intelligence. The amendment stresses that these are being rushed in with great environmental impact, as the noble Lord said. They are potentially reshaping our entire physical world as well as our virtual world. It is really important that we have regulation on how that reshaping happens.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I shall be brief and start with Amendment 79. We could join in the chorus of approval and my noble friend Lady Brinton could come up with dozens of examples that justify the noble Lord’s amendment but, in the interests of time, we will not. If noble Lords would like more examples, I am sure my noble friend could provide them. We very much support Amendment 79.

I commend the noble Lord for persuading the Public Bill Office to allow him to table Amendment 53. The spirit is very much met. Given the nature of all the digital Bills, with which he is completely familiar, I suspect this is an argument we will have again and again in those Bills. The spirit is correct.

I want to say a few words on Amendment 52 which are different from the words noble Lords have heard. I sit on the International Agreements Committee and we look at the CPTPP trade deal. Rules of origin are central to all this. The nature of CPTPP is that, for example, a product built in Malaysia can start to move freely within the countries that are signatories to that trade deal. Whether we have the details of the components of that product before it starts moving around our alliance depends on His Majesty’s Government asserting their right to know what is in those products. Whether the Government like it or not, in this Bill, with their signing of the CPTPP, they are going to have to start to interest themselves in a detailed way on what is in the stuff travelling around the CPTPP.

Why is that? One of the biggest exporters of components into Malaysia is China. That brings us back to the whole China question, which I will not repeat here. If, for example, we find that that country is the subject of either embargo or tariff, we will really have to know what is going on in all those products. So it makes a lot of sense, from the very start, for the department to flex its muscles and develop its skills to understand the supply chains of the things coming through people’s doors every day, courtesy of the large online retailers.

When a piece of electrical stuff comes through our door, we have absolutely no idea what is in it, where it was made and its safety for our families. We cannot know that without knowing the supply chain and the rules of origin of what is moving around our country. It is difficult, of course, but it is something in which we will have to increasingly interest ourselves.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, and I specifically thank the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, for his amendments. During the second day in Committee, the noble Lord illustrated his knowledge of and passion for the subject of AI.

I turn first to Amendment 53 on the review of large language models. We have already discussed the intersection or interaction between this Bill and AI in a previous group, and I will briefly restate some of the key points I made in that debate which are relevant here. Evidently, the use of AI in products is still in its infancy. How exactly this technology will develop remains to be seen, but we have drafted the Bill in such a way that it keeps pace with technological change; Clause 2(2)(a) allows regulations to take account of intangible components of a physical product.

However, the Bill does not and will not regulate digital products or artificial intelligence in and of themselves. Instead—I hope this reassures the noble Lord, Lord Holmes—the Government are developing a wider policy around AI, which I am sure will take into consideration proposals for AI safety legislation as announced in the King’s Speech. I recognise that noble Lords keenly anticipate the detail of these proposals, so I assure your Lordships that my noble friend Lady Jones will update the House in due course.

The Office for Product Safety & Standards is considering the use of AI in products and the regulatory challenges for product safety associated with that. We are just at the start of that process but know that it will become more important as technologies develop. I will ensure that the House is kept up to date with progress on this work.

Amendment 52 addresses product traceability and responsibilities within supply chains, including digital supply chains. I agree with noble Lords that it is essential that those responsible for producing or importing products are identifiable. Existing regulations already require relevant supply chain parties to maintain necessary documentation for tracing product origins and, as we consider updates to product requirements, we will also review these traceability provisions to ensure that they are fit for purpose. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, mentioned CPTPP, which in fact comes into force this Sunday when the UK becomes a full member. I suppose we will just have to review the application of this whole supply chain and traceability, and monitor how it goes.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I thank the Minister, but perhaps there is another of his letters here—for which I also thank him. The CPTPP is not like the European Union—there is not a secretariat overseeing what is going on. If you think something wrong is going on, it is up to the Government to raise it. It would be useful to know how the department is now going to police or at least find out what it needs to deal with. Otherwise, it is essentially transparent.

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

I totally agree with the noble Lord. I will ensure that officials in the department look into this and either write to him or have a meeting on this.

Over the coming year, our priority will be continuing to address the sale of unsafe goods on online marketplaces—an area that noble Lords are right to highlight and on which they have demonstrated extensive knowledge and passion in the best traditions of this House. As outlined in the Government’s response to the product safety review consultation, we will also explore digital solutions, including the use of voluntary digital labelling, to streamline business processes and support authorities in monitoring product safety.

However, it should be noted that issues of traceability are much broader than ensuring the safety or proper functioning of products. This would bring in myriad other policy issues, such as the nature of global supply chains and cross-border jurisdictional arrangements. I believe that noble Lords would agree that these issues warrant careful discussion and debate, but they are distinct from the Bill’s purpose of ensuring the safety and functionality of products.

Amendment 79 relates to the creation of a mandatory inclusive-by-design standard. I am pleased to inform the noble Lord that the British Standards Institution has already developed and published a British Standard that provides guidelines for the adoption of an inclusive approach to the design of products. The standard sets out a strategic framework and processes to enable business executives and design practitioners to understand that inclusive design should be a core organisational driver.

I refer back to the example the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, gave of credit card payments. We have come a long way, but I still remember those zapping machines that zapped your credit card and you had to sign the receipt. That obviously creates a lot of situations where fraud can happen. Then we had the PIN, and nowadays contactless. I have been reading some articles before today’s debate, and some of the financial institutions are looking at mobile wallets, whereby an encrypted account number is embedded within the wallet itself. But these are early days, so we have to keep watching this area and see how it develops.

Furthermore, an updated version of the ground-breaking, government-sponsored, fast-track standard on inclusive data use in standards was published by the BSI in August this year and is free to download. This helps standards makers to work with data with inclusion in mind so that the standards produced are representative and include communities that are traditionally excluded, helping to minimise harm and deliver more robust products. Standards are voluntary in nature and the Bill, as with our current product safety regulations, continues to allow the use of standards to remain voluntary, avoiding potential barriers to trade.

I hope that the noble Lord is satisfied with the explanations given today and that the amendment will be withdrawn.