Buses: Rural Services

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 16th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I reiterate to the noble Lord that we are providing funding—we are supporting £2.12 billion-worth of funding. It is not just about the money; it is also about being innovative with how we spend it. It is the case that local authorities know what is best for their local communities. It is not up to national government to micromanage hyperlocal bus schedules.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, in Scotland, thanks principally to free travel for older people, who can travel anywhere throughout Scotland absolutely free, rural bus services are being maintained and indeed expanded—incidentally, this is with help from the English taxpayer. Why is such a scheme not possible also in England?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

We operate things differently in England than they do in Scotland. But I stand by what I said earlier in that funding from central government is available. Local authorities can of course also access council tax, business rates and other local income. However, at the end of the day, it is about using money more effectively, not just throwing more money at it.

Railway (Licensing of Railway Undertakings) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I have sat through a number of transport statutory instruments which have been brought forward in the event that there is no deal—something that none of us wants or expects to happen. There have been dozens and dozens of them in Grand Committee and on the Floor of the House. The noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, has spent a lot of her valuable time on them, and we have five officials in the Box—excellent, qualified people—who have been working hard on them. This total waste of time and effort has been caused by the Prime Minister. One of my noble friends said to me earlier that it is not the men in grey suits that need to turn up to deal with what is happening in 10 Downing Street but the men in white coats. I am grateful to him for suggesting that to me. Can the Minister give us an estimate of the time and cost involved in dealing with all these unnecessary statutory instruments?

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I would like to register the concern and disappointment that is also felt on these Benches at people having to apply to drive trains, cars, buses or whatever else across the EU when the UK has led the charge in unifying standards and bringing the countries together. Perhaps I may ask one question. My noble friend mentioned that a small number of drivers have not yet achieved the qualification to drive in the EU if we leave with no deal. Can she tell the House how many drivers are in that situation and what efforts are being made in that regard? She noted that some efforts are being made to inform them about what to do and what the implications might be for those who do not have those qualifications.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, this is about my 60th SI, so I am into some SI fatigue. Previously I have started by saying how much I regret being here because of the Government’s failure to rule out a no-deal Brexit. Unfortunately, the world has changed. If nobody blinks, our no-deal exit is next Saturday and these rules will come in. I therefore have to disagree with my noble friend Lord Foulkes: I think we do have to do this work, for the worst possible reason—because we are in the worst possible place. Brexit itself is bad enough, but the Brexit that is going to be thrust upon us unless sanity reigns—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Will my noble friend give way? I am going to agree with him: we have to do this. I just regret that we are having to do it because the Prime Minister has taken such a stubborn attitude. If she had understood the position and realised the strength of feeling earlier, we would not now be in the situation of facing the possibility of no deal at the end of next week. I hope that we do not have no deal, but I understand why we are having to do this. I just think that it is a terrible waste of the Minister’s time and staff time, and it would have been completely unnecessary if the Prime Minister had made a sensible decision.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

I am glad the noble Lord agrees with me that, unfortunately, it is now a necessity.

Turning to the two instruments, first, I agree with virtually everybody who has spoken—including my noble friends Lord Berkeley and Lord Snape, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson—that the ongoing exchange of information should be a long-term aspiration, even in the silliest position we might find ourselves in. Can the Government come out and say that it will be a long-term aspiration in the rail industry? Exchange of information in the transport sector is one of the key factors necessary to achieve the levels of safety we have come to expect.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I was hoping that the Minister would answer my question and give me some indication of how much of her very valuable time she spent dealing with what my noble friend has now disclosed was 90 statutory instruments, and how many officials in the department have been occupied in this task, which might well not have been necessary.

Aviation: Boeing 737 MAX 8 Jets

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

I have seen the same reports as my noble friend. The Air Accidents Investigation Branch has offered assistance to the Ethiopian authorities. That has now been accepted and a team is now being deployed.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the Chinese authorities have grounded all 60 of their aircraft of this type. Would she care to speculate why they have done so and whether their action is premature?

[Baroness Sugg]

No, I would not wish to speculate why the Chinese have taken those decisions. As I said, the CAA is in discussion with EASA on any restrictions that should be put in place, but the current position is that more information is needed to warrant any grounding decision. As I also said, these decisions are best taken internationally. We have five 737 MAX 8s registered in the UK, but 350 are flying globally. Further conversations are of course ongoing and we are keeping in close contact with both the CAA and EASA.

Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 12th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)]

My Lords, these regulations will be made using powers in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and will be needed if the UK leaves the European Union without a deal. This draft instrument corrects three EU regulations that provide an important consumer protection regime for passengers travelling by air. It also makes some changes to the Civil Aviation (Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing) Regulations 2012, which were amended recently to implement elements of the package travel directive.

The three EU regulations are: Regulation 261/2004, which establishes the rights of passengers, including their right to compensation and assistance if they are denied boarding against their will, or if their flight is cancelled or delayed; Regulation 1107/2006, which establishes the rights of disabled passengers and those with reduced mobility to access air transport, and establishes their right to receive free-of-charge assistance; and Regulation 2027/97, which harmonises the obligations of Community air carriers regarding their liability for injury to passengers and damage to baggage, in line with provisions in the 1999 Montreal Convention.

The package travel directive provides for consumer protection in relation to package holidays and other linked travel arrangements. The directive is implemented in the UK primarily by the Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018. Corrections to these regulations so that they continue to work after exit day have already been made through the Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.

Provisions under the directive relating to insolvency protection are implemented in part through the Air Travel Organiser’s Licence—ATOL—scheme. The directive provides for the mutual recognition among EEA member states of insolvency protection regimes. This instrument makes changes to the ATOL scheme to reflect that this mutual recognition will no longer apply to the UK after exit day in a no-deal scenario.

The withdrawal Act will retain the three regulations I have just listed in their entirety in UK law on exit day. The draft instrument we are considering makes corrections to these retained EU regulations as well as the 2012 ATOL regulations to ensure that the statute book continues to function correctly after exit day. This means that air passengers can continue to benefit from the rights and protections set out in EU legislation.

On Regulation 261/2004, the substantive rights of passengers to assistance, rebooking and compensation in the event that they are denied boarding or subject to long delays or cancellations remain the same. The EU regulation sets out that these rights apply to passengers travelling on a flight departing any airport in the EU, and flights departing an airport in a third country to an airport in the EU, if the carrier is an EU carrier. This instrument makes changes to the scope of the retained regulation to reflect that the UK will no longer be part of the EU after exit day. The retained regulation will apply in relation to all flights departing an airport in the UK and flights departing an airport in another country if the carrier is a UK carrier.

To ensure full continuity on the routes in relation to which passengers can benefit from the rights and protections set out in Regulation 261/2004, the retained regulation will also apply in respect of flights into the EU from countries other than the UK, if they are operated by a UK carrier. It will also apply in respect of flights from third countries to the UK if they are operated by an EU carrier. Other changes the instrument makes reflect that the UK will no longer be part of the EU, and include converting compensation amounts set out in euros in the EU regulation to pounds sterling.

Finally, the instrument ensures that the CAA is fully and effectively able to enforce the retained regulation. It sets out that provisions relating to complaints, and domestic legislation containing criminal offences for persistent breach by air carriers of provisions in the retained EU regulation, apply to the same routes—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, on a previous occasion, the Minister was not able to say how many extra staff the CAA has taken on to deal with this extra responsibility. Is she now able to give us that figure? How much will it cost?

[Baroness Sugg]

If the noble Lord will wait, I will come on to CAA resourcing. Obviously, we work very closely with the CAA to ensure that it is sufficiently resourced.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Did the Minister say she will tell us how many extra staff are required and how much this will cost at a later stage in the debate? I did not quite catch that.

[Baroness Sugg]

I will come on to CAA resourcing at a later stage in this speech, if the noble Lord will give me a minute.

Finally, this instrument ensures that the CAA is fully and effectively able to enforce the retained regulation. It sets out that provisions relating to complaints and domestic legislation containing criminal offences for persistent breach by air carriers of provisions in the retained EU regulation apply to the same routes and air carriers as the retained EU regulation itself.

On Regulation 1107/2006, the rights that disabled passengers and persons with reduced mobility are able to benefit from when travelling by air also remain unchanged. These include the right to assistance at airports without additional charge and the right to assistance by air carriers without additional charge. Once again, this instrument ensures full continuity for consumers by making certain that the retained regulation—Regulation 1107/2006—will apply after exit day to passengers using or intending to use commercial passenger air services on departure from, transit through or arrival at UK airports.

Certain provisions will also continue to apply in relation to flights departing from a third-country airport to the UK if the flight is operated by a UK air carrier. Like Regulation 261/2004, these provisions will also apply to flights into the EU from countries other than the UK if the flight is being operated by a UK carrier and flights from third countries to the UK if the flight is being operated by an EU carrier. These provisions set out that: air carriers and tour operators cannot refuse travel to passengers on the grounds of disability or reduced mobility; that if it is not possible for an air carrier, agent or tour operator to accommodate a passenger with a disability or with reduced mobility on the grounds of safety or the size of the aircraft or its doors, the passenger shall be reimbursed or be offered rerouting; and that air carriers are required to provide assistance without additional charge, such as allowing assistance dogs in the cabin of the aircraft and arranging seating suitable to meet the needs of the individual.

The third regulation covered by this instrument is Regulation 2027/97, which sets out provisions relating to the liability of air carriers in relation to the injury or death of passengers, as well as damage to or loss of baggage. Most of the provisions in this regulation implement elements of the 1999 Montreal Convention, and the changes that this instrument makes to the retained regulation are limited to those needed to reflect the fact that the UK will no longer be an EU member state after exit day; for example, substituting references to “Community air carrier” with references to “UK air carrier”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sugg]

Yes, that is what I am saying. As I said, at the moment there are only 13 EEA-established businesses currently selling to the UK that would be affected by the requirement, and the CAA is used to processing around 1,000 cases a year. Therefore, in answer to the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, the CAA is confident that it is fully resourced to achieve this.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My question is not whether the CAA is fully resourced. My question—which I asked in Grand Committee a number of weeks ago, so the Minister has had plenty of notice of it—is how many extra staff is the CAA taking on, and how much extra is it going to cost? She said she was going to answer it later in her speech. Could she please answer it now?

--- Later in debate ---

Once again, we come back to the fundamental problem. I am very sorry that my noble friend has to argue these cases; it is very unfair to put her in this position, but we have to do it because she is here, putting this forward. Once again, we come to exactly the same issue: this is a pretence. It is to suggest that, if we were to leave the European Union without any agreement, we can simply slip off one pair of shoes and put on another that will be as comfortable and as serviceable as the ones out of which we have slipped. The truth is that they will pinch us at every single point. We will find it extremely difficult to walk and there will be no relief from this. So I say to my noble friend, even if we pass these regulations, I hope we will do so in the very deep understanding that they are hugely damaging to every air passenger, to every company running an airline and to this, the country we all love.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I do not want to follow the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and his pedestrian metaphor dealing with an aviation statutory instrument, although it was very good. I share his sympathy with the Minister, who has to deal with it, although he might agree with me that she will deal with it far more competently than the current Secretary of State would be able to. I hope she will take that as a compliment.

In the last debate on this issue, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde—probably the most loyal of loyalists on the other side—castigated me, my noble friend Lord Adonis and others for taking up too much time with scrutiny. I challenged him on why no Conservatives are asking questions on any of these statutory instruments—with the one exception of the noble Lord, Lord Deben.

[A noble Lord]

What about the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I apologise. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, is also doing so. My argument is falling apart here.

I asked why the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, and others were not doing it. He said, “Because we accept without question what the Government are putting forward”. To do so under normal legislative circumstances would be bad enough, but when they are rushing through statutory instruments by the hundreds, it is even worse. As I said then, what else are we here for? What is the purpose of the House of Lords? Our only substantive purpose is to scrutinise primary and secondary legislation. If we do not do that, then we all might as well stay at home. I am sure that Mrs May, Mrs Leadsom and others would love that.

The noble Lord, Lord Deben, spoke about the customers. Any customer or passenger listening as carefully to the Minister’s introduction as I did—this is the second or third time I have heard this explanation—may be as baffled as I am. There are still questions; my noble friend Lord Berkeley has asked some of them, and my noble friend Lord Adonis intervened with some about a whole range of things concerning UK carriers. They arise in particular with British Airways and Iberia. As I understand it, the headquarters of the latter are already in Madrid. I do not know whether they count. My noble friend Lord Whitty, who is an expert on aviation and vice-president of BALPA, is nodding. Iberia is a Spanish company, not a British company. Any passenger listening to the Minister will find it very difficult to know exactly what their rights are and how they will manage to get flights in the event of no deal. It will be chaotic, there is no doubt about that. We saw in the debate about which I have spoken how there will be chaos in healthcare if we leave with no deal. Our 27 million EHIC cards will no longer be valid throughout the European Union. We could go through area after area of problems.

We are going through all these SIs and Bills. I heard Andrea Leadsom, Leader of the House of Commons, say on Radio 4 this morning that, “There will be no problem getting all the legislation through by the end of March”. She was accused in the other place of lying, and the leader of the SNP had to withdraw. But he was absolutely right.

[Lord Adonis]

If my noble friend will forgive me, is he aware that the Prime Minister said two hours ago in the House of Commons that the Government would enact all the consequential legislation on a deal—if a deal is agreed—by means of emergency legislation? Whatever period of time is left at the end of March, which could be as little as two or three days, it will all be rammed through. Does he share my acute concern at the idea that this House might be faced with emergency legislation procedures to carry through some of the most significant legislation in the history of Parliament? Does he agree that some of us might think this unsatisfactory, and will certainly not be party to such an abuse of the constitution?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My noble friend has stolen my peroration. He is absolutely right and said it much better than me. It is a frightening prospect that if nothing is agreed, nothing is approved, by the end of March we will face emergency legislation.

[Lord Deben]

I just wanted to give the noble Lord a chance to rewrite his peroration. Can I ask him very simply, is this what he would define as taking back control?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

That is an even better peroration. The whole campaign of the leavers was to take back control—if I remember—to the British Parliament, not the British Government. It is not the Government or even the Cabinet, but one person who seems to be ramming it through with some kind of stubbornness and determination. That was not what it was supposed to be about. It was supposed to bring the power back to this Parliament.

I say to my noble friend Lord Adonis, if they try to push it through by emergency legislation that will be a real test of the mettle of every Member of this House, particularly the Cross-Benchers. Are they going to stand up for Parliament, or be subservient to our autocratic Government? That will be the test.

I think I have gone a little bit wider than the statutory instrument and I am grateful for the fact that the Lord Speaker does not have the same powers as the Speaker in another place; otherwise, I might have been ruled out of order by now. I am sorry to be slightly flippant; it is a very serious matter. Coming back to relevance, this one statutory instrument is illustrative of the kind of thing we face in this Parliament at the moment, and it is quite frightening.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I am sorry that I am going to destroy even more the statement from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, by being the third speaker from this side of the House to raise questions. I saw in the paper this morning that apparently, on 1 September 1939, between 6 pm and midnight Parliament passed six pieces of emergency legislation—all three Readings —and rose before midnight, so it is possible to put through emergency legislation. But I wonder whether this is the sort of parallel we would like to draw.

I have heard many justifications for leaving the EU but I have never yet heard job creation as being one of them. However, it seems that virtually every time we come here we are creating more jobs—59 extra jobs, I am told. That must be at least a couple of million pounds on public expenditure. How much of the vast amount of money we were going to save is going to be spent? I suppose that since the Government’s priority is to create jobs, this is a partly a way of doing that.

High Speed Rail (West Midlands-Crewe) Bill

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I will briefly ask the noble Baroness a couple of questions on this Motion. It is good to have it before the House—it shows progress with HS2—but I am wondering why today. It is probably because we do not have much else to do in your Lordships’ House. Could she give us any idea as to when the Bill will complete its passage through the House of Commons and when we might see it?

Before the Bill comes to your Lordships’ House, will the Government publish a new business case and cost estimate for phase 2a—the subject of the Bill—taking into account the latest information about land purchase and design development? I am already hearing stories about quite difficult ground conditions on the route, including salt mines. There are lots of salt mines in Cheshire. Let us hope that the costs estimate does not go shooting up. I ask this because on HS2 phase 1 we are still working on the 2013 business case, which is six years old—six years of the Infrastructure and Projects Authority’s amber/red designation, which I think is a record.

This was raised in the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee hearing last week, when Nusrat Ghani, the Minister, and officials gave evidence. When the committe quoted higher costs to the Minister—I think she had probably gone to vote by then—the officials said, “We don’t recognise these figures”. When the committee went back to them and said, “If you don’t recognise the figures we’re quoting, what figures do you recognise?” The answer was, basically, “None”. I do not know whether this is the first of many Treasury blank cheques, or whether in fact the Minister will confirm, as she did in a Written Answer to me about six months ago, that before permanent work starts on phase 1, the Government will come up with a new cost estimate and a new business case.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, perhaps I may add a couple of question to those of my noble friend Lord Berkeley. I must admit that I am a wee bit worried now that he has told me about the salt mines in Cheshire—but I will have a go nevertheless.

This Motion refers to,

“the next Session of Parliament”.

I am glad to see that the Government Chief Whip is here, because my first question is: when is the next Session of Parliament? When are we going to get it? Will the Queen ever come here again? Will we have a Queen’s Speech—because we have a whole range of things to get though? With what is happening down at the other end of the building, this Session could go on and on. So, before we agree to this, it would be useful to know when the next Session of Parliament is due to begin.

My second question relates to the question of publishing the business case, which my noble friend raised. The original business case, which seems to be being forgotten—I know that my noble friend Lord Snape will not have forgotten it—envisaged that the high-speed rail would go all the way up to Glasgow and Edinburgh in Scotland. Therefore, the business case was based on competition: competing with the airlines that fly now between London and Glasgow and Edinburgh. If it is not going up to Glasgow and Edinburgh, that business case does not arise—so I would be grateful to know whether the business case does include the extension of high-speed rail to Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Those are my two questions. I hope they are not enough to get me sent to the salt mines of Cheshire.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, before the Minister responds, and without wishing to send my noble friend to the salt mines or anywhere else, could she offer some reassurance to those of us who have long supported this particular scheme, as far as costings are concerned? My noble friend who asked the first question of the Minister is, like me, regarded as a supporter of HS2. I am tempted to say, “With friends like us, who needs enemies?” I think that the costings we have had so far are causing considerable concern—although the Economic Affairs Committee has never been well disposed to this particular scheme and has criticised it on financial grounds on previous occasions. Can the Minister offer some reassurance to those of us who support this scheme that the costings are sensible and that we will not have to keep defending it against people who appear to believe that if you think of a figure and double it, that would be the cost of HS2 in future.

Finally, would the Minister agree that it is essential, whether or not the scheme gets to Scotland, that pressure is taken off the west coast main line, and alternatives are offered in the way that, we all hope, HS2 will bring about?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

That is a new way of putting it; it is usually “above my pay grade”, so “beyond my purview” is new. Sitting two down from the Minister is the Government Chief Whip, who is paid a lot more than she is. I wonder whether the Chief Whip would care to intervene and tell us when the next Session of Parliament is due to start. If he cannot do so today, maybe he will do what he did when I raised the issue of Recess dates and announce them a week later.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I will restrict myself to answering questions on HS2, which is within my pay grade. On HS2’s costs in general, of course all major projects face challenges and it would be unrealistic to expect HS2 to be straightforward. We are absolutely committed to delivering HS2, and HS2 Ltd has been set an ambitious target of starting phase 1 services in 2026. HS2 Ltd is currently working with contracted suppliers to keep phase 1 on track, which includes updating and agreeing an assessment of schedule confidence. We will make those schedule details public as part of the full business case for phase 1, which is due to be published later this year. The spending review in 2015 established the long-term funding envelope for delivering HS2 of £55.7 billion at 2015 prices, and we remain determined to deliver HS2 within that.

On timing, there was no particular reason for debating the Motion today. It is simply when it was scheduled as a formal procedure. The equivalent procedure has already passed in another place and it follows the precedent for hybrid Bills in this House. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Snape, on the necessity for HS2. We have seen a doubling of passenger numbers on our railways; we are at capacity and we urgently need a new railway to help deal with that demand. I beg to move.

Ship and Port Security (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Whitaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend. Newhaven, like many others of our working ports, is also a residential town. People live very close to the port area, so environmental protection from the emissions from ships is extremely important.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Can the Minister confirm if this is one of the statutory instruments required only in a no-deal scenario?

Merchant Shipping and Other Transport (Environmental Protection) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Whitaker (Lab)]

My Lords, exactly the same points apply about the protection of citizens.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Can I also ask in relation to this one if this is required only in the event of no deal?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)]

My Lords, I confirm that this is another SI that is required only in a no-deal scenario. It makes changes to legislation on controlling sulphur dioxide emissions from ships, substances used to prevent the fouling of ships’ hulls, and transport and works legislation in relation to environmental impact assessment. It corrects deficiencies that would mean that environmental legislation did not work as intended. It is designed to ensure that we continue to maintain our high environmental standards.

Ship Recycling (Facilities and Requirements for Hazardous Materials on Ships) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I very much support the noble Baroness’s comments on this SI. It is designed to put some regulation around the breaking up of ships. As we all know—and as the noble Baroness said—it is a difficult and possibly polluting process. There was a time, a few years ago, when a shipyard in the UK was breaking up ships that had been towed across from the United States because they were not allowed to be broken up there. I have always thought that our environmental regulations were supposed to be better than theirs. They certainly were not then. Why they were not towed to India or Bangladesh, heaven only knows, because it is even worse there.

I share the noble Baroness’s worry that there may be one common list at the moment, but it is very easy for UK commercial interests to put pressure on the Government here to enable UK shipbreakers’ yards to compete with those on the continent by lowering standards. The paragraph in the Explanatory Memorandum that the noble Baroness quoted also says:

“To allow UK flagged ships the widest choice and to minimise administrative burdens on ship recycling facilities, our policy is to align the UK list with the European list as far as practicable”.


This is the dangerous bit. When the Minister responds, I hope she will confirm that there will be no reduction in any environmental or other standards, compared with Europe’s, if and when we leave.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, this is yet another of these statutory instruments. I share the exasperation of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. It is almost as if a collective madness has overtaken this Parliament. We are spending hours and hours on this, using up the time of brilliant officials and keeping excellent Ministers working. While we are discussing these statutory instruments, some of our colleagues in Grand Committee are discussing other statutory instruments relating to legal issues. All of these will be required only in the event of no deal—which, apparently, none of us wants and which we are trying to get off the agenda.

I read the contribution from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, to the debate yesterday, and how wise it was. If only we would do what the noble and learned Lord suggested and take some decisive action. For goodness’ sake, have we become collectively enthralled and caught up in this interminable process?

We are told that even after today’s votes this may not be the end of it. On 13 February—the day before St Valentine’s Day, of all choices—we will have yet another opportunity. The Prime Minister is unbelievably adamant and stubborn. Despite the fact that leader after leader in Ireland and everywhere in Europe is saying, “No, this agreement that has been discussed and debated over the last two years, and which has been agreed, is legally binding and cannot be changed; it is a legal agreement”, she wants to say, “Oh, no, no, no, I am going to try yet again”.

Where are we? What use is this Parliament? What use is this House if we cannot do something to stop it? We should be doing something. We had a third debate yesterday. It was like Groundhog Day, going through the same arguments again and again. With no disrespect, I have heard the wonderful speech from the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, on half a dozen occasions now, with little bits added here and there. I do not pick him out for any particular reason. The same applies to almost everyone who has spoken in all three debates. It really is outrageous that we are put through this.

What else could the Minister and her excellent officials in the Department for Transport be doing? We heard earlier from my noble friend Lord Snape about the importance of HS2. These things all need to be pushed forward and considered. We are having problems on the railways, such as with Northern rail. The Secretary of State seems to have constant problems in relation to transport. If he had more time, instead of being preoccupied with Brexit, he might just be able to cope with some of them—maybe—and the officials might be able to deal with them. Why? This really is outrageous. Admittedly, this is not all to do with this particular statutory instrument, but I feel a lot better having said it.

Transport: Freight Services

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 7th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

I certainly agree with the noble Lord. Our railways are absolutely at capacity—we have seen a doubling of passengers—and we desperately need more space, which is what HS2 will deliver.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, with the fiasco of Northern rail, the debacle of the phantom drones at Gatwick, and now Kent, where only half the HGVs turned up for the trial, what does it take for a Secretary of State to have to resign these days?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I reassure the noble Lord that the Secretary of State is absolutely across all the issues he has raised.

Operation of Air Services (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 18th December 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

At end insert “but regrets that the effect of a no deal exit from the European Union risks grounding all civil aircraft after 29 March 2019; and calls on Her Majesty’s Government to seek United Kingdom membership of the European Common Aviation Area in its own right to prevent such an outcome.”

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the awful spectre of a no-deal Brexit grows relentlessly day by day. Like lemmings, the Government are heading blindly towards a cliff edge. There is paralysis in the House of Commons. The Prime Minister seems to be manoeuvring to get what she wants, irrespective of what is best for the country. I am pleased that we have this debate on the Floor of the House. That is why I negatived it in Grand Committee, when the Government were trying to slip it in quietly behind the scenes in the Room next door.

However, most of the talk about a no-deal Brexit is fairly abstract to most people. The implications have not been sufficiently discussed or understood. They are potentially quite disastrous and this is only one of them—we are not talking about the lorry parks, the medicines or all the other problems. This relates just to aviation. Whenever anyone tries to raise practical issues in this realistic way, they are shouted down with the usual cry from the Brexiteers of Project Fear. We saw that in Scotland in 2014. In fact, there is a great deal to be feared from no deal—and this, as I say, is just one example.

The basic question is whether planes will keep flying between the United Kingdom and European Union destinations, and elsewhere, after 29 March 2019—and, if so, on what terms and at what cost. We have already discussed this on two previous occasions. It is no reflection on the Minister personally that satisfactory answers have not yet been provided, because she cannot provide what does not exist. I will try again to see whether she can do her best—I know she will.

As I have pointed out previously, there is a straightforward way of resolving Brexit-related aviation issues, at least in the short to medium term, if we go ahead with no deal. Access to the EU’s internal market for air transport could be retained by the United Kingdom simply joining the European Common Aviation Area, which is not restricted to European Union member states. However—and it is a big “however”—membership would require the United Kingdom to accept EU aviation laws, which ultimately would come under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. So what was seen by the Prime Minister as a red line has in fact become a straitjacket in which the Government have put themselves so that they are unable to take this sensible action.

Surely this is an example of where realism should triumph over dogma. Is there anyone in this House—or indeed the whole country—who would deny the common sense of accepting that one condition in return for the guarantee that, after 29 March, whatever else happens it would be business as usual for aviation—a very simple way forward?

Whatever you think of Michael O’Leary in other contexts, he certainly knows his industry and needs to be listened to, and his company provides cheap flights for millions of people in this country and others. He says that if there a no-deal Brexit, flights will be grounded. So can the Minister give an absolute guarantee now that this will not happen? I say this now and I will say it again: whatever she says will be recorded in Hansard and when it comes to 30 March, we will be able to see—if we go ahead with no deal, which I hope we do not.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

Is my noble friend aware of anyone in the aviation industry who thinks that Brexit is anything other than an extremely negative and potentially disastrous step forward for this country?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I do not. It is not just Michael O’Leary who has said that. I am trying to be briefer than usual, but if I was going to go on for longer I could mention many other examples. But if Michael O’Leary is wrong, we need to be told unambiguously that this is not one of the real threats from a no-deal Brexit.

Among the 700 statutory instruments required for the crazy prospect of a no-deal Brexit, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee drew special attention to these regulations because they,

“give rise to issues of public policy likely to be of interest to the House”.

That is why I negatived them in Grand Committee, so that we could have a debate in the House. That statement is certainly true, and the more we know about the potential implications, the greater the interest will be in this—and, I think, the greater the anger is likely to become. For example, how many people realise that it is not only flights within the European Union that are threatened by a no-deal Brexit? The whole basis of our aviation relations with the rest of the world is via the European Union. In all, the EU governs direct UK aviation access to 44 other countries, including the US and Canada. My second request for a guarantee is: what guarantees can the Minister give today on a smooth transition, which means no groundings or delays, for these routes beyond? Remember—we are going to keep careful note of this.

Also, what steps have been taken to guarantee that our safety and maintenance regimes, which again are framed within the EU regime, will be acceptable to every country in Europe and the wider world after 29 March? According to the European Aviation Safety Agency, certificates previously issued by the CAA before exit day would no longer be automatically accepted in the EASA system after 29 March. Has there been any progress on a definitive answer to the massive implication of that statement? How is it to be resolved?

When we last discussed these matters, the Minister was unable to say how many extra staff the CAA has taken on, or will take on, for its hugely increased workload. This is one of the many costs of preparing for Brexit; it is already taking on more staff. Can she give us an indication today of how many staff will be needed to deal with route licensing in that hugely increased workload, as well as its other responsibilities? These are huge questions. We are only three months away from our potential exit from the European Union, unless some hand of fate intervenes. We do not want vague assurances that discussions are continuing. They will guarantee nothing, and both business and private travellers now need specific, hard and clear assurances from the Government who have led us into this cul-de-sac.

I am not going to press this to a vote today. I would have liked to have done so, but some of my colleagues have said, “Let’s give the Government an opportunity to answer these points”. It is not because I am in any way satisfied, but I will give the Government the opportunity to make their explanation and give us the guarantees today. I am sure that the Minister will recognise that this in no ways absolves the Government from finding a solution that avoids a no-deal Brexit, thereby eliminating the extremely serious threats to civil aviation that we are discussing. Let us hope that sense prevails and we are not faced with a no-deal disaster—otherwise I believe that the kind of things I have predicted today will cause tremendous problems after 29 March. I beg to move.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted that this little debate has been called. I declare my interests at the outset, as a former transport spokesman in the European Parliament and a one-time rapporteur on a civil aviation report. Subsequently, I was a spokesman in the House of Commons for the Conservatives when in opposition.

I would like to put a number of small questions to my noble friend the Minister today. The House has been particularly well served by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s report on these regulations, which raised a number of policy issues that need to be addressed. I must say that I find the amendment to the Motion that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has put before the House quite attractive.

My question relates to the implications for air service agreements with the EU and the EEA. There is also a broader question which does not seem to have been addressed in these regulations which I know is causing great concern. I omitted to say that at the time I married my husband he was an airline executive and is now in receipt of a pension from Delta Air Lines. I have not consulted him on my notes today, but perhaps it would have been better to have done so.

American carriers are concerned about cabotage and their right to fly internally within the EU. We are currently part of the common travel area. Will my noble friend address what happens when the United Kingdom leaves the European Union on 29 March regarding the fourth and fifth freedoms and US and other international carriers? That does not seem to be addressed in this regulation, but I know it will be exercising many of the airlines at this time.

Page 4 of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s report raises a number of issues and I think the House will take a great interest in the Minister’s reply. Paragraph 16 states:

“In the event of no agreement, EEA airlines will now also need to apply for a foreign carrier permit to operate in the UK”.


As suggested, I would like to press the Minister about the basis on which these expectations are founded and what co-operation and negotiations she is having with EU carriers to ensure that the necessary permits will be in place before 29 March so that there is no gap in aviation post Brexit. How long does the Minister think it will take to apply for these permits? What cost will there be to the airlines in this regard? Will she take this opportunity to correct what I hope are incorrect newspaper reports over the weekend that passengers are being told not to fly after 29 March next year because it is all too difficult to know what rights will be in place and what permits will be required for passengers to apply for visas or permits to travel?

I would also be grateful for a response from the Minister on this question. When she referred to the current wet leasing arrangements, she said that this will be in relation to reciprocity. How will this carry on after 29 March, particularly as it is understood that carriers may not benefit from the current arrangements once we have left the European Union?

The amendment to the Motion tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, asks for UK membership of the European common aviation area. Does my noble friend have a date for the application that we intend to make to that area?

I shall conclude with a general point. I understand that these regulations might have been put forward as a draft negative, in which case I am not sure that we would have had the chance to consider them. If that is the case, the House was given a very clear understanding during the passage of the EU withdrawal Bill that no policy should be decided by secondary legislation and that all policy should be decided by primary legislation. My fear is that the statutory instrument before the House today is getting perilously close to determining policy. I hope that the Government will put down a marker that when it comes to other Bills, such as the Agriculture Bill and the environment Bill, no policy will be applied through regulation but will be in the Bill. When we were in opposition that was always our very clear understanding.

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[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, I extend my commiserations to the Minister for having to defend an impossible policy today. Nobody engaged in this business thinks that what we are discussing today is anything other than ridiculous: dismantling our entire existing system of civil aviation regulation, mutual recognition and European supervision and the rights of carriers to operate in different countries, all for the pursuit of an ideologically crazed venture which never at any point focused on issues of aviation and travel within the European Union.

None the less, having extended my commiserations, I point out that the Minister does have great responsibilities to the House and to Parliament. As the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, so rightly said, people are making real travel decisions based on their fear of what may or may not happen from the end of March next year. It is almost unbelievable that people should be cancelling their travel plans and not arranging holidays for next Easter and summer, due to their fears of what will happen because of inadequate government preparations for our relations with our European partners. In the House of Commons yesterday, the Prime Minister herself ramped up the real possibility of a no-deal Brexit in a big way and posited it as the main alternative to the passage of her deal. It is hard to exaggerate how irresponsible that was on her part, because almost nobody in Parliament believes that this deal is going to go through in a month’s time. The Prime Minister is saying to Parliament, and to the country, that the most likely scenario now facing the country is that there will be no deal at the end of next March.

All of the concerns raised in the reports we have been debating today, leading to profound discontinuities and companies and individuals in this country experiencing massive economic and social damage, will come to pass. At the moment, we are just talking about one small fraction of aviation, but we face an extremely serious situation. As the noble Baroness said, this is just one set of regulations. There is a string of regulations relating to the complex and difficult area of aviation safety which I hope will come to the Floor of the House because they involve extremely important issues. There are dozens of other transport regulations.

I am told—because I know one or two things about what goes on in the noble Baroness’s department—that a significant proportion of the staff in the Department for Transport are now working solely on Brexit-related issues. This is part of the reason for the massive cost overrun on Crossrail, which is not being delivered on time. We have inadequate supervision of HS2—we could continue down the list. There is only a certain amount of expertise, energy and capacity in Whitehall and at the moment, it is all being sucked in by Brexit, including the extremely valuable time of the noble Baroness and other Ministers in her department, which is having to be spent dealing with proposals for what happens if we crash out of the EU in three months’ time, rather than staying in. I suspect that the noble Baroness agrees with almost everything I have said, although she cannot say it quite like that. All this is worth saying because we are going to have this time after time, day after day, between now and the end of next March if we carry on with this present process.

My noble friend Lord Foulkes has done a great service to the House by bringing up this matter and moving his amendment. I was surprised when he said he was not going to push it to a vote. Indeed, I was little short of astonished, as my noble friend never knowingly undersells when it comes to fulfilling the duties of opposition. I cannot believe that, at this late hour, he is going to wimp out of pushing this to a vote. I hope he has not come under pressure from these people called Whips, who apparently exercise some influence in this House. I cannot think of any good reason for not pushing it, since the matters raised in his amendment are of profound public policy concern. I cannot think of an issue that this House has more of a duty to raise than this: it goes to the heart of the continuity of our transport arrangements. It may be that the noble Baroness gives such an impressive and detailed reply that my noble friend will not feel he needs to press this further. However, to give him some slight encouragement, if the reply is not of the calibre he would expect, giving give him absolute assurance of continuity in our transport arrangements at the end of next March, he might think of pressing the amendment. He might find that one or two other noble Lords will be with him in the Lobby. I might even be prepared to be a Teller with him.

It is not just about a vote at the end of this debate. We have got to send a message to the Government that we are on their case, regulation after regulation, when issues of this variety come before the House between now and the end of next March.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

As my noble friend said, there are going to be dozens, scores—maybe hundreds—more of these SIs. We need to keep a very close watch on them in Grand Committee and make sure that the important ones are negatived and come here. We may have many other opportunities for considering them, moving amendments and even voting. Even if he does not have the excitement today, I think there are going to be many other opportunities.

[Lord Adonis]

I entirely agree with my noble friend and with the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, who rightly said that issues of first-order public policy were being raised in regulations. At the moment, whether they come before the House is almost entirely random. I also say in passing that there is a growing sense of frustration about this. The House is about to go into Recess in what is—let us be frank—a national crisis. It is going into Recess on Thursday and not coming back until the second week in January. By then, we will have literally a matter of days before we leave the European Union. We should be doing our duty and assembling here in Westminster and debating these issues regulation by regulation from the beginning of the new year. I might have something further to say about that when the Motion for the Adjournment comes forward on Thursday.

Turning to the specific issues at stake here, the situation is very serious. The report of Sub-Committee A of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which examined the regulations and—I echo the Baroness—did an excellent job on these and others, says of air carriers that,

“in the event of ‘no deal’ the UK expects to grant permission to EU carriers to operate at UK airports”.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said that part of the reason why we have such a big aviation sector is cheap airlines. They are part of the reason, but it is also that in Heathrow, we have Europe’s preeminent hub airport. It is one of the biggest earners for this country in terms of international income and the promotion of inward investment, because it is so successful. Anything that promotes discontinuity in operations at Heathrow will be lethal to its success, to our ability to attract inward investment and to be an aviation world leader in future. If our European partners and other European airlines think that we are not going to put in place all the regulations necessary to ensure that Heathrow operates completely smoothly and with no discontinuity whatever, they will very rapidly—the noble Baroness is nodding because she understands this completely—move their operations to Frankfurt, Charles de Gaulle, Dubai or other international hub airports that are at least as accessible as Heathrow in terms of facilities. The stakes are extremely high: one of our major national industries could be at stake if we get this wrong.

The Select Committee said that,

“in the event of ‘no deal’ the UK expects to grant permission to EU carriers to operate at UK airports. We expect this to be reciprocated by EU states granting permission to UK air carriers to operate to points in the EU. If a multilateral agreement with the EU can’t be reached, we would seek bilateral agreements with individual states”.

Buried in those words are matters of huge complexity and difficulty. Not only would we need a bilateral arrangement for each of the 27 other member states of the EU in the event of no deal; as my noble friend Lord Foulkes said, there are also the other 144 arrangements that we have in place which govern our international aviation. When the Minister replied to the heated debates in Grand Committee on these issues and was invited to give an update on the state of the negotiations with our 27 EU partners on the reciprocal arrangements and the other countries that are covered by them, she was unable to give a great deal of information. She said that,

“we are having conversations with the Commission and the member states about a wide range of issues. I am not able to give further detailed information at this moment”.—[Official Report, 21/11/18; col. GC 21.]

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[Baroness Sugg]

I am sorry if I was not clear. No, the current UK-US deal deals only with direct flights between the UK and the US. Obviously, a flight that stops off at Shannon will be part of our discussions with the EU.

I hope I have been able to provide reassurance on this. I think that the EU Commission has been very clear in setting out its position and we have been very clear in setting out our position. They are broadly the same position: they both rely on reciprocity. We are delivering our position through this series of statutory instruments and, as I said, the EU is working on a timeline of when it will deliver its position. While we are working hard to get parliamentary agreement to the deal with the EU, we of course have to continue to make responsible preparations to ensure that, in the absence of that agreement, we will be able to avoid disruption. This SI and the others we have debated and will debate over the coming months are a key part of those preparations. Both we and the EU have published contingency plans, of which these regulations are just one small element. Taken together, those plans will ensure that planes can continue to fly to and from the EU in the event of a no-deal exit. They will ensure that our legal and regulatory framework for aviation is ready so that flights can continue whatever the outcome of the negotiations.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, the Minister has been more helpful than she was in Grand Committee, and my noble friend on the Front Bench made a splendid speech referring to this guidance of 24 September. It says right at the end:

“This notice is meant for guidance only”.


If I were booking a flight to the Canaries in April I would take account of the next sentence:

“You should consider whether you need separate professional advice before making specific preparations”.


I am sure that that will be helpful for my noble friend. However, we have noted what the Minister said. All this work is being done, all these great people in the Department for Transport are working very hard indeed and it really is quite outrageous, as my noble friend Lord Adonis said, that they are being deployed on this work which we hope will be totally unnecessary when they could be doing something really useful. However, in light of the Minister’s helpful reply, I do not intend to press my amendment to a Division.

Amendment to the Motion withdrawn.