Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Clement-Jones Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom (Con)]

My Lords, I share in the congratulations of my noble friend Lady Owen. It has taken me about 10 years to begin to understand how this House works and it has taken her about 10 minutes.

I want to pursue something which bewilders me about this set of amendments, which is the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Gohir. I do not understand why we are talking about a different Bill in relation to audio fakes. Audio has been with us for many years, yet video deepfakes are relatively new. Why are we talking about a different Bill in relation to audio deepfakes?

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, this has been a very interesting debate. I too congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Owen, on having brought forward these very important amendments. It has been a privilege to be part of her support team and she has proved an extremely persuasive cross-party advocate, including in being able to bring out the team: the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, who has cross-examined the Minister, and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. There is very little to follow up on what noble Lords have said, because the Minister now knows exactly what he needs to reply to.

I was exercised by this rather vague issue of whether the elements that were required were going to come back at Third Reading or in the Commons. I did not think that the Minister was specific enough in his initial response. In his cross-examination, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, really went through the key elements that were required, such as the no intent element, the question of reasonable excuse and how robust that was, the question of solicitation, which I know is very important in this context, and the question of whether it is really an international law matter. I have had the benefit of talking to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and surely the mischief is delivered and carried out here, so why is that an international law issue? There is also the question of deletion of data, which the noble Lord has explained pretty carefully, and the question of timing of knowledge of the offence having been committed.

The Minister needs to describe the stages at which those various elements are going to be contained in a government amendment. I understand that there may be a phasing, but there are a lot of assurances. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, is it six or seven? How many assurances are we talking about? I very much hope that the Minister can see the sentiment and the importance we place on his assurances on these amendments, so I very much hope he is going to be able to give us the answers.

In conclusion, as the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, said—and it is no bad thing to be able to wheel on a former Secretary of State at 9 o’clock in the evening—there is a clear link between gender-based violence and image-based abuse. This is something which motivates us hugely in favour of these amendments. I very much hope the Minister can give more assurance on the audio side of things as well, because we want future legislation to safeguard victims, improve prosecutions and deter potential perpetrators from committing image-based and audio-based abuse crimes.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the Minister and my noble friend Lady Owen for bringing these amendments to your Lordships’ House. Before I speak to the substance of the amendments, I join others in paying tribute to the tenacity, commitment and skill that my noble friend Lady Owen has shown throughout her campaign to ban these awful practices. She not only has argued her case powerfully and persuasively but, as others have remarked, seems to have figured out the machinery of this House in an uncanny way. Whatever else happens, she has the full support of these Benches.

I am pleased that the Government have engaged constructively with my noble friend and are seeking to bring this back at Third Reading. The Minister has been asked some questions and we all look forward with interest to his responses. I know from the speeches that we have heard that I am not alone in this House in believing that we have an opportunity here and now to create these offences, and we should not delay. For the sake of the many people who have been, and will otherwise be, victims of the creation of sexually explicit deepfakes, I urge the Government to continue to work with my noble friend Lady Owen to get this over the line as soon as possible.

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[Lord Freyberg (CB)]

I support the amendment, to which I have attached my name, along with the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty. I declare my interest as a member of DACS, the Design and Artists Copyright Society, and I, too, thank the Minister for meeting us prior to this debate.

Today’s digital landscape presents unique and pressing challenges for visual artists that we can no longer ignore. A 2022 YouGov survey commissioned by DACS uncovered a revealing paradox in our digital culture. While 75% of people regularly access cultural content at least three times a week, with 63% downloading it for free, an overwhelming 72% of the same respondents actively support compensating artists for digital sharing of their work. These figures paint a stark picture of the disconnect between the public’s consumption habits and their ethical convictions about fair compensation.

The Netherlands offers a compelling blueprint for change through DACS’ partner organisation Pictoright. Its innovative private copying scheme has successfully adapted to modern consumption habits while protecting artists’ interests. Consider a common scenario in museums: visitors now routinely photograph artworks instead of purchasing traditional postcards. Under Pictoright’s system, artists receive fair compensation for these digital captures, demonstrating that we can embrace the convenience of digital access without sacrificing creators’ right to earn from their work. This proven model shows that the tension between accessibility and fair compensation is not insurmountable.

The smart fund offers a similar balanced solution for the UK. This approach would protect our cultural ecosystem while serving the interests of creators, platforms and the public alike. I hope the Government will look favourably upon this scheme.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, for retabling his Committee amendment, which we did not manage to discuss. Sadly, it always appears to be discussed rather late in the evening, but I think that the time has come for this concept and I am glad that the Government are willing to explore it.

I will make two points. Many countries worldwide, including in the EU, have their own version of the smart fund to reward creators and performers for the private copy and use of their works and performances. Our own CMS Select Committee found that, despite the creative industries’ economic contribution—about which many noble Lords have talked—many skilled and successful professional creators are struggling to make a living from their work. The committee recommended that

“the Government work with the UK’s creative industries to introduce a statutory private copying scheme”.

This has a respectable provenance and is very much wanted by the collecting societies ALCS, BECS, Directors UK and DACS. Their letter said that the scheme could generate £250 million to £300 million a year for creatives, at no cost to the Government or to the taxpayer. What is not to like? They say that similar schemes are already in place in 45 countries globally, including most of Europe, and many of them include an additional contribution to public cultural funding. That could be totally game-changing. I very much hope that there is a fair wind behind this proposal.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, for laying this amendment and introducing the debate on it.

As I understand it, a private copying levy is a surcharge on the price of digital content. The idea is that the money raised from the surcharge is either redistributed directly to rights holders to compensate them for any loss suffered because of copies made under the private copying exceptions or contributed straight to other cultural events. I recognise what the noble Lord is seeking to achieve and very much support his intent.

I have two concerns. First—it may be that I have misunderstood it; if so, I would be grateful if the noble Lord would set me straight—it sounds very much like a new tax of some kind is being raised, albeit a very small one. Secondly, those who legitimately pay for digital content end up paying twice. Does this not incentivise more illegal copying?

We all agree how vital it is for those who create products of the mind to be fairly rewarded and incentivised for doing so. We are all concerned by the erosion of copyright or IP caused by both a global internet and increasingly sophisticated AI. Perhaps I could modestly refer the noble Lord to my Amendment 75 on digital watermarking, which I suggest may be a more proportionate means of achieving the same end or at least paving the way towards it. For now, we are unable to support Amendment 57 as drafted.

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[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I very much encourage the Government to go down this road. Everyone talks about the NHS just because the data is there and organised. If we establish a structure like this, there are other sources of data that we could develop to equivalent value. Education is the obvious one. What works in education? We have huge amounts of data, but we do nothing with it—both in schools and in higher education. What is happening to biodiversity? We do not presently collect the data or use it in the way we could, but if we had that, and if we took advantage of all the people who would be willing to help with that, we would end up with a hugely valuable national resource.

HMRC has a lot of information about employment and career patterns, none of which we use. We worry about what is happening and how we can improve seaside communities, but we do not collect the data which would enable us to do it. We could become a data-based society. This data needs guarding because it is not for general use—it is for our use, and this sort of structure seems a really good way of doing it. It is not just the NHS—there is a whole range of areas in which we could greatly benefit the UK.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, all our speakers have made it clear that this is a here-and-now issue. The context has been set out by noble Lords, whether it is Stargate, the AI Opportunities Action Plan or, indeed, the Palantir contract with the NHS. This has been coming down the track for some years. There are Members on the Government Benches, such as the noble Lords, Lord Mitchell and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, who have been telling us that we need to work out a fair way of deriving a proper financial return for the benefits of public data assets, and Future Care Capital has done likewise. The noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, has form in this area as well.

The Government’s plan for the national data library and the concept of sovereign data assets raises crucial questions about how to balance the potential benefits of data sharing with the need to protect individual rights, maintain public trust and make sure that we achieve proper value for our public digital assets. I know that the Minister has a particular interest in this area, and I hope he will carry forward the work, even if this amendment does not go through.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for moving her amendment. The amendments in this group seek to establish a new status for data held in the public interest, and to establish statutory oversight rules for a national data library. I was pleased during Committee to hear confirmation from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, that the Government are actively developing their policy on data held in the public interest and developing plans to use our data assets in a trustworthy and ethical way.

We of course agree that we need to get this policy right, and I understand the Government’s desire to continue their policy development. Given that this is an ongoing process, it would be helpful if the Government could give the House an indication of timescales. Can the Minister say when the Government will be in a position to update the House on any plans to introduce a new approach to data held in the public interest? Will the Government bring a statement to this House when plans for a national data library proceed to the next stage?

I suggest that a great deal of public concern about nationally held datasets is a result of uncertainty. The Minister was kind enough to arrange a briefing from his officials yesterday, and this emerged very strongly. There is a great deal of uncertainty about what is being proposed. What are the mechanics? What are the risks? What are the costs? What are the eventual benefits to UK plc? I urge the Minister, as and when he makes such a statement, to bring a maximum of clarity about these fundamental questions, because I suspect that many people in the public will find this deeply reassuring.

Given the stage the Government are at with these plans, we do not think it would be appropriate to legislate at this stage, but we of course reserve the right to revisit this issue in the future.

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In his response to the last group, I sensed that the Minister let rather an important cat out of the bag. I am always looking for the Government to be doing policy development, but he used a key word in that answer which I would very much like him to use in his answer on this group. For the Government, it seems that it is not policy development that matters but “active” policy development. I look forward to his response and the debate on this group. I beg to move.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, we have had some discussion already this week on data centres. The noble Lord, Lord Holmes, is absolutely right to raise this broad issue, but I was reassured to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, earlier in the week that the building of data centres, their energy requirements and their need may well be included in NESO’s strategic spatial energy plan and the centralised strategic network plan. Clearly, in one part of the forest there is a great deal of discussion about energy use and the energy needs of data centres. What is less clear and, in a sense, reflected in the opportunities plan is exactly how the Government will decide the location of these data centres, which clearly—at least on current thinking about the needs of large language models, AI and so on—will be needed. It is about where they will be and how that will be decided. If the Minister can cast any light on that, we would all be grateful.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond for moving this amendment. Amendment 59 is an important amendment that addresses some of the key issues relating to large language models. We know that large language models have huge potential, and I agree with him that the Government should keep this under review. Perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, would be willing to update the House on the Government’s policy on large language model regulation on her return.

Data centre availability is another emerging issue as we see growth in this sector. My noble friend is absolutely right to bring this to the attention of the House. We firmly agree that we will have a growing need for additional data centres. In Committee, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, did not respond substantively to Amendments 60 and 66 from my noble friend on data centres, which I believe was—not wholly unreasonably—to speed the Committee to its conclusion just before Christmas. I hope the Minister can give the House a fuller response on this today, as it would be very helpful to hear what the Government’s plans are on the need for additional data centres.

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[The Earl of Erroll (CB)]

My Lords, I spoke on this before, and I will repeat what I said previously. The only way out of this one is to have two fields against someone: one that we will call “sex” and another that we will call “gender”. I will use the terminology of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for this. “Sex” is what you are biologically and were born, and that you cannot change. There are instances where we need to use that field, particularly when it comes to delivering medicine to people—knowing how you treat them medically—and, possibly, in other things such as sports. There are one or two areas where we need to know what they are biologically.

Then we have another field which is called “gender”. In society, in many cases, we wish that people did not have to go around saying that they are not what they were born but what they want to be—but I do not have a problem with that. We could use that field where society decides that people can use it, such as on passports, other documents and identity cards—all sorts of things like that. It does not matter; I am not worried about what someone wants to call themselves or how they want to present themselves to society.

Researchers will have the “sex” field, and they can carry out medical research— they can find out about all the different things related to that—and, societally, we can use the other field for how people wish to project themselves in public. That way we can play around with what you are allowed to use in what scenarios; it allows you to do both. What we need is two fields; it will solve a lot of problems.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, it is clear that Amendment 67 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, is very much of a piece with the amendments that were debated and passed last week. On these Benches, our approach will be exactly the same. Indeed, we can rely on what the Minister said last week, when he gave a considerable assurance:

“I can be absolutely clear that we must have a single version of the truth on this. There needs to be a way to verify it consistently and there need to be rules. That is why the ongoing work is so important”.—[Official Report, 21/1/25; col. 1620.]


That is, the work of the Central Digital and Data Office. We are content to rely on his assurance.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend Lord Lucas for bringing his Amendment 67, which builds on his previous work to ensure accuracy of data. On these Benches, we agree wholeheartedly with him that the information we have access to—for example, to verify documents—must be accurate. His amendment would allow the Secretary of State to make regulations establishing definitions under the Bill for the purposes of digital verification services, registers of births and deaths, and other provisions. Crucially, this would enable the Government to put measures in place to ensure the consistency of the definitions of key personal attributes, including sex. We agree that consistency and accuracy of data is vital. We supported him on the first day at Report, and, if he pushes his amendment to a Division, we will support him today.

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[Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom (Con)]

My Lords, as so often, I listened with awe to the noble Baroness. Apart from saying that I agree with her wholeheartedly, which I do, there is really no need for me for me to add anything, so I will not.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I too am lost in admiration for the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron—still firing on all cylinders at this time of night. Current law is clearly out of touch with the reality of computer systems. It assumes an untruth about computer reliability that has led to significant injustice. We know that that assumption has contributed to miscarriages of justice, such as the Horizon scandal.

Unlike the amendment in Committee, Amendment 68 does not address the reliability of computers themselves but focuses rather on the computer evidence presented in court. That is a crucial distinction as it seeks to establish a framework for evaluating the validity of the evidence presented, rather than questioning the inherent reliability of computers. We believe that the amendment would be a crucial step towards ensuring fairness and accuracy in legal proceedings by enabling courts to evaluate computer evidence effectively. It offers a balanced approach that would protect the interests of both the prosecution and the defence, ensuring that justice is served. The Government really must move on this.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for her amendments. The reliability of computer-based evidence, needless to say, has come into powerful public focus following the Post Office Horizon scandal and the postmasters’ subsequent fight for justice. As the noble Baroness has said previously and indeed tonight, this goes far beyond the Horizon scandal. We accept that there is an issue with the way in which the presumption that computer evidence is reliable is applied in legal proceedings.

The Government accepted in Committee that this is an issue. While we have concerns about the way that the noble Baroness’s amendment is drafted, we hope the Minister will take the opportunity today to set out clearly the work that the Government are doing in this area. In particular, we welcome the Government’s recently opened call for evidence, and we hope Ministers will work quickly to address this issue.

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Moved by

[Lord Clement-Jones]

74: After Clause 132, insert the following new Clause—
“Retrospective applicationWithin one month of the day on which this Act is passed, the Secretary of State must publish a statement clarifying whether the changes enacted by its commencement will apply to controllers and processors retrospectively, or only to data first processed following its commencement.”

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I have the very dubious privilege of moving the final amendment on Report to this Bill. This is a probing amendment and the question is: what does retrospectivity mean? The noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochiel, asked a question of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, in Committee in December:

“Will the forthcoming changes to data protection law apply to such data that controllers and processors already hold?”


She replied that

“the new lawful ground of recognised legitimate interest will apply from the date of commencement and will not apply retrospectively”.—[Official Report, 10/12/24; cols. GC 435-437.]

But the question is not really whether the lawfulness is retrospective, but whether the changes made in the new law can be applied to any personal data previously collected and already held on the commencement date of the Act—so that is the exam question.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

It is indeed getting late. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for moving his amendment, and I really will be brief.

We do not oppose the government amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Vallance. I think the Minister should be able to address the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, given that the noble Lord’s amendment merely seeks clarification on the retrospective application of the provisions of the Bill within a month of the coming into force of the Act. It seems that the Government could make this change unnecessary by clarifying the position today. I hope the Minister will be able to address this in his remarks.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I will speak first to Amendment 76. I reassure noble Lords that the Government do not believe that this amendment has a material policy effect. Instead, it simply corrects the drafting of the Bill and ensures that an interpretation provision in Clause 66 commences on Royal Assent.

Amendment 74, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement Jones, would require the Secretary of State to publish a statement setting out whether any provisions in the Bill apply to controllers and processers retrospectively. Generally, provisions in Bills apply from the date of commencement unless there are strong policy or legal reasons for applying them retrospectively. The provisions in this Bill follow that general rule. For instance, data controllers will only be able to rely on the new lawful ground of recognised legitimate interests introduced by Clause 70 in respect of new processing activities in relation to personal data that take place after the date of commencement.

I recognise that noble Lords might have questions as to whether any of the Bill’s clauses can apply to personal data that is already held. That is the natural intent in some areas and, where appropriate, commencement regulations will provide further clarity. The Government intend to publish their plans for commencement on GOV.UK in due course and the ICO will also be updating its regulatory guidance in several key areas to help organisations prepare. We recognise that there can be complex lifecycles around the use of personal data and we will aim to ensure that how and when any new provisions can be relied on is made clear as part of the implementation process.

I hope that explanation goes some way to reassuring the noble Lord and that he will agree to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister. There is clearly no easy answer. I think we were part-expecting a rather binary answer, but clearly there is not one, so we look forward to the guidance.

But that is a bit worrying for those who have to tackle these issues. I am thinking of the data protection officers who are going to grapple with the Bill in its new form and I suspect that that is going to be quite a task. In the meantime, I withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 74 withdrawn.