Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, this has been a very interesting debate. I too congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Owen, on having brought forward these very important amendments. It has been a privilege to be part of her support team and she has proved an extremely persuasive cross-party advocate, including in being able to bring out the team: the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, who has cross-examined the Minister, and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. There is very little to follow up on what noble Lords have said, because the Minister now knows exactly what he needs to reply to.

I was exercised by this rather vague issue of whether the elements that were required were going to come back at Third Reading or in the Commons. I did not think that the Minister was specific enough in his initial response. In his cross-examination, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, really went through the key elements that were required, such as the no intent element, the question of reasonable excuse and how robust that was, the question of solicitation, which I know is very important in this context, and the question of whether it is really an international law matter. I have had the benefit of talking to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and surely the mischief is delivered and carried out here, so why is that an international law issue? There is also the question of deletion of data, which the noble Lord has explained pretty carefully, and the question of timing of knowledge of the offence having been committed.

The Minister needs to describe the stages at which those various elements are going to be contained in a government amendment. I understand that there may be a phasing, but there are a lot of assurances. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, is it six or seven? How many assurances are we talking about? I very much hope that the Minister can see the sentiment and the importance we place on his assurances on these amendments, so I very much hope he is going to be able to give us the answers.

In conclusion, as the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, said—and it is no bad thing to be able to wheel on a former Secretary of State at 9 o’clock in the evening—there is a clear link between gender-based violence and image-based abuse. This is something which motivates us hugely in favour of these amendments. I very much hope the Minister can give more assurance on the audio side of things as well, because we want future legislation to safeguard victims, improve prosecutions and deter potential perpetrators from committing image-based and audio-based abuse crimes.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the Minister and my noble friend Lady Owen for bringing these amendments to your Lordships’ House. Before I speak to the substance of the amendments, I join others in paying tribute to the tenacity, commitment and skill that my noble friend Lady Owen has shown throughout her campaign to ban these awful practices. She not only has argued her case powerfully and persuasively but, as others have remarked, seems to have figured out the machinery of this House in an uncanny way. Whatever else happens, she has the full support of these Benches.

I am pleased that the Government have engaged constructively with my noble friend and are seeking to bring this back at Third Reading. The Minister has been asked some questions and we all look forward with interest to his responses. I know from the speeches that we have heard that I am not alone in this House in believing that we have an opportunity here and now to create these offences, and we should not delay. For the sake of the many people who have been, and will otherwise be, victims of the creation of sexually explicit deepfakes, I urge the Government to continue to work with my noble friend Lady Owen to get this over the line as soon as possible.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, for retabling his Committee amendment, which we did not manage to discuss. Sadly, it always appears to be discussed rather late in the evening, but I think that the time has come for this concept and I am glad that the Government are willing to explore it.

I will make two points. Many countries worldwide, including in the EU, have their own version of the smart fund to reward creators and performers for the private copy and use of their works and performances. Our own CMS Select Committee found that, despite the creative industries’ economic contribution—about which many noble Lords have talked—many skilled and successful professional creators are struggling to make a living from their work. The committee recommended that

“the Government work with the UK’s creative industries to introduce a statutory private copying scheme”.

This has a respectable provenance and is very much wanted by the collecting societies ALCS, BECS, Directors UK and DACS. Their letter said that the scheme could generate £250 million to £300 million a year for creatives, at no cost to the Government or to the taxpayer. What is not to like? They say that similar schemes are already in place in 45 countries globally, including most of Europe, and many of them include an additional contribution to public cultural funding. That could be totally game-changing. I very much hope that there is a fair wind behind this proposal.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, for laying this amendment and introducing the debate on it.

As I understand it, a private copying levy is a surcharge on the price of digital content. The idea is that the money raised from the surcharge is either redistributed directly to rights holders to compensate them for any loss suffered because of copies made under the private copying exceptions or contributed straight to other cultural events. I recognise what the noble Lord is seeking to achieve and very much support his intent.

I have two concerns. First—it may be that I have misunderstood it; if so, I would be grateful if the noble Lord would set me straight—it sounds very much like a new tax of some kind is being raised, albeit a very small one. Secondly, those who legitimately pay for digital content end up paying twice. Does this not incentivise more illegal copying?

We all agree how vital it is for those who create products of the mind to be fairly rewarded and incentivised for doing so. We are all concerned by the erosion of copyright or IP caused by both a global internet and increasingly sophisticated AI. Perhaps I could modestly refer the noble Lord to my Amendment 75 on digital watermarking, which I suggest may be a more proportionate means of achieving the same end or at least paving the way towards it. For now, we are unable to support Amendment 57 as drafted.

[The Minister of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Lord Vallance of Balham) (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend Lord Bassam for his Amendment 57 on the subject of private copying levies. It reinforces a point we discussed earlier about copying being covered by copyright.

The smart fund campaign seeks the introduction of a private copy levy. Such a levy would aim to indirectly compensate copyright owners for the unauthorised private copying of their works—for example, when a person takes a photo of an artwork or makes a copy of a CD—by paying copyright owners when devices capable of making private copies are sold.

Noble Lords may be aware that, in April 2024, the Culture, Media and Sport Committee recommended that the Government introduce a private copying levy similar to that proposed by this amendment. The Government’s response to that recommendation, published on 1 November, committed the Intellectual Property Office to meet with representatives from the creative industries to discuss how to strengthen the evidence base on this issue. That process is under way. I know that a meeting with the smart fund group is planned for next week, and I can confirm that DCMS is included and invited. I know that the IPO would be glad to meet my noble friend, as well as the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, to discuss this further. I also absolutely assure him that Chris Bryant is aware of this important issue and will be following this.

I am sure my noble friend will agree that it is essential that we properly engage and consider the case for intervention before legislating. Therefore, I hope he will be content to withdraw his amendment, to allow the Government the opportunity to properly explore these issues with creative and tech industry stakeholders.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, all our speakers have made it clear that this is a here-and-now issue. The context has been set out by noble Lords, whether it is Stargate, the AI Opportunities Action Plan or, indeed, the Palantir contract with the NHS. This has been coming down the track for some years. There are Members on the Government Benches, such as the noble Lords, Lord Mitchell and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, who have been telling us that we need to work out a fair way of deriving a proper financial return for the benefits of public data assets, and Future Care Capital has done likewise. The noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, has form in this area as well.

The Government’s plan for the national data library and the concept of sovereign data assets raises crucial questions about how to balance the potential benefits of data sharing with the need to protect individual rights, maintain public trust and make sure that we achieve proper value for our public digital assets. I know that the Minister has a particular interest in this area, and I hope he will carry forward the work, even if this amendment does not go through.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for moving her amendment. The amendments in this group seek to establish a new status for data held in the public interest, and to establish statutory oversight rules for a national data library. I was pleased during Committee to hear confirmation from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, that the Government are actively developing their policy on data held in the public interest and developing plans to use our data assets in a trustworthy and ethical way.

We of course agree that we need to get this policy right, and I understand the Government’s desire to continue their policy development. Given that this is an ongoing process, it would be helpful if the Government could give the House an indication of timescales. Can the Minister say when the Government will be in a position to update the House on any plans to introduce a new approach to data held in the public interest? Will the Government bring a statement to this House when plans for a national data library proceed to the next stage?

I suggest that a great deal of public concern about nationally held datasets is a result of uncertainty. The Minister was kind enough to arrange a briefing from his officials yesterday, and this emerged very strongly. There is a great deal of uncertainty about what is being proposed. What are the mechanics? What are the risks? What are the costs? What are the eventual benefits to UK plc? I urge the Minister, as and when he makes such a statement, to bring a maximum of clarity about these fundamental questions, because I suspect that many people in the public will find this deeply reassuring.

Given the stage the Government are at with these plans, we do not think it would be appropriate to legislate at this stage, but we of course reserve the right to revisit this issue in the future.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Tarassenko, for Amendments 58 and 71, one of which we also considered in Committee. I suspect that we are about to enter an area of broad agreement here. This is a very active policy area, and noble Lords are of course asking exactly the right questions of us. They are right to emphasise the need for speed.

I agree that it is essential that we ensure that legal and policy frameworks are fit for purpose for the modern demands and uses of data. This Government have been clear that they want to maximise the societal benefits from public sector data assets. I said in the House very recently that we need to ensure good data collection, high-quality curation and security, interoperability and ways of valuing data that secure appropriate value returns to the public sector.

On Amendment 58, my officials are considering how we approach the increased demand and opportunity of data, not just public sector data but data across our economy. This is so that we can benefit from the productivity and growth gains of improvements to access to data, and harness the opportunities, which are often greater when different datasets are combined. As part of this, we sought public views on this area as part of the industrial strategy consultation last year. We are examining our current approach to data licensing, data valuation and the legal framework that governs data sharing in the public sector.

Given the complexity, we need to do this in a considered manner, but we of course need to move quickly. Crucially, we must not betray the trust of people or the trust of those responsible for managing and safeguarding these precious data assets. From my time as chair of the Natural History Museum, I am aware that museums and galleries are considering approaches to this very carefully. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, may well be interested to see some of the work going on on biodiversity datasets there, where there are huge collections of great value that we actually did put value against.

Of course, this issue cuts across the public sector, including colleagues from the Geospatial Commission, NHS, DHSC, National Archives, Department for Education, Ordnance Survey and Met Office, for example. My officials and I are very open to discussing the policy issues with noble Lords. I recently introduced the noble Lord, Lord Tarassenko, to officials from NHSE dealing with the data side of things there and linked him with the national data library to seek his input. As was referred to, yesterday, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones, Lord Tarassenko and Lord Stevenson, and the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, all met officials, and we remain open to continuing such in-depth conversations. I hope the noble Baroness appreciates that this is an area with active policy development and a key priority for the Government.

Turning to Amendment 71, also from the noble Baroness, I agree that the national data library represents an enormous opportunity for the United Kingdom to unlock the full value of our public data. I agree that the protection and care of our national data is essential. The scope of the national data library is not yet finalised, so it is not possible to confirm whether a new statutory body or specific statutory functions are the right way to do this. Our approach to the national data library will be guided by the principles of public law and the requirements of the UK’s data protection legislation, including the data protection principles and data subject rights. This will ensure that data sharing is fair, secure and preserves privacy. It will also ensure that we have clear mechanisms for both valuation and value capture. We have already sought, and continue to seek, advice from experts on these issues, including work from the independent Prime Minister’s Council for Science and Technology. The noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, also referred to the work that I was involved with previously at the Tony Blair Institute.

The NDL is still in the early stages of development. Establishing it on a statutory footing at this point would be inappropriate, as work on its design is currently under way. We will engage and consult with a broad range of stakeholders on the national data library in due course, including Members of both Houses.

The Government recognise that our data and its underpinning infrastructure is a strategic national asset. Indeed, it is for that reason that we started by designating the data centres as critical national infrastructure. As the subjects of these amendments remain an active area of policy development, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, we have had some discussion already this week on data centres. The noble Lord, Lord Holmes, is absolutely right to raise this broad issue, but I was reassured to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, earlier in the week that the building of data centres, their energy requirements and their need may well be included in NESO’s strategic spatial energy plan and the centralised strategic network plan. Clearly, in one part of the forest there is a great deal of discussion about energy use and the energy needs of data centres. What is less clear and, in a sense, reflected in the opportunities plan is exactly how the Government will decide the location of these data centres, which clearly—at least on current thinking about the needs of large language models, AI and so on—will be needed. It is about where they will be and how that will be decided. If the Minister can cast any light on that, we would all be grateful.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond for moving this amendment. Amendment 59 is an important amendment that addresses some of the key issues relating to large language models. We know that large language models have huge potential, and I agree with him that the Government should keep this under review. Perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, would be willing to update the House on the Government’s policy on large language model regulation on her return.

Data centre availability is another emerging issue as we see growth in this sector. My noble friend is absolutely right to bring this to the attention of the House. We firmly agree that we will have a growing need for additional data centres. In Committee, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, did not respond substantively to Amendments 60 and 66 from my noble friend on data centres, which I believe was—not wholly unreasonably—to speed the Committee to its conclusion just before Christmas. I hope the Minister can give the House a fuller response on this today, as it would be very helpful to hear what the Government’s plans are on the need for additional data centres.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, it is clear that Amendment 67 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, is very much of a piece with the amendments that were debated and passed last week. On these Benches, our approach will be exactly the same. Indeed, we can rely on what the Minister said last week, when he gave a considerable assurance:

“I can be absolutely clear that we must have a single version of the truth on this. There needs to be a way to verify it consistently and there need to be rules. That is why the ongoing work is so important”.—[Official Report, 21/1/25; col. 1620.]


That is, the work of the Central Digital and Data Office. We are content to rely on his assurance.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend Lord Lucas for bringing his Amendment 67, which builds on his previous work to ensure accuracy of data. On these Benches, we agree wholeheartedly with him that the information we have access to—for example, to verify documents—must be accurate. His amendment would allow the Secretary of State to make regulations establishing definitions under the Bill for the purposes of digital verification services, registers of births and deaths, and other provisions. Crucially, this would enable the Government to put measures in place to ensure the consistency of the definitions of key personal attributes, including sex. We agree that consistency and accuracy of data is vital. We supported him on the first day at Report, and, if he pushes his amendment to a Division, we will support him today.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I too am lost in admiration for the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron—still firing on all cylinders at this time of night. Current law is clearly out of touch with the reality of computer systems. It assumes an untruth about computer reliability that has led to significant injustice. We know that that assumption has contributed to miscarriages of justice, such as the Horizon scandal.

Unlike the amendment in Committee, Amendment 68 does not address the reliability of computers themselves but focuses rather on the computer evidence presented in court. That is a crucial distinction as it seeks to establish a framework for evaluating the validity of the evidence presented, rather than questioning the inherent reliability of computers. We believe that the amendment would be a crucial step towards ensuring fairness and accuracy in legal proceedings by enabling courts to evaluate computer evidence effectively. It offers a balanced approach that would protect the interests of both the prosecution and the defence, ensuring that justice is served. The Government really must move on this.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for her amendments. The reliability of computer-based evidence, needless to say, has come into powerful public focus following the Post Office Horizon scandal and the postmasters’ subsequent fight for justice. As the noble Baroness has said previously and indeed tonight, this goes far beyond the Horizon scandal. We accept that there is an issue with the way in which the presumption that computer evidence is reliable is applied in legal proceedings.

The Government accepted in Committee that this is an issue. While we have concerns about the way that the noble Baroness’s amendment is drafted, we hope the Minister will take the opportunity today to set out clearly the work that the Government are doing in this area. In particular, we welcome the Government’s recently opened call for evidence, and we hope Ministers will work quickly to address this issue.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

Amendment 68 from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, aims to prevent future miscarriages of justice, such as the appalling Horizon scandal. I thank the noble Baroness and, of course, the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, for the commitment to ensuring that this important issue is debated. The Government absolutely recognise that the law in this area needs to be reviewed. Noble Lords will of course be aware that any changes to the legal position would have significant ramifications for the whole justice system and are well beyond the scope of this Bill.

I am glad to be able to update the noble Baroness on this topic since Committee. On 21 January the Ministry of Justice launched a call for evidence on this subject. That will close on 15 April, and next steps will be set out immediately afterwards. That will ensure that any changes to the law are informed by expert evidence. I take the point that there is a lot of evidence already available, but input is also needed to address the concerns of the Serious Fraud Office and the Crown Prosecution Service, and I am sure they will consider the important issues raised in this amendment.

I hope the noble Baroness appreciates the steps that the Ministry of Justice has taken on this issue. The MoJ will certainly be willing to meet any noble Lords that wish to do so. As such, I hope she feels content to withdraw the amendment.

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Moved by

[Viscount Camrose]

73: After Clause 132, insert the following new Clause—
“Data risks from systemic competitors and hostile actors(1) The Secretary of State, in consultation with the Information Commissioner, must conduct a risk assessment on the data privacy risks associated with genomics and DNA companies that are headquartered in countries the Government determines to be systemic competitors and hostile actors.(2) Within 12 months of the day on which this Act is passed, the Secretary of State must present a report on the risk assessment in subsection (1) to Parliament and consult the intelligence and security agencies on the findings, taking into account the need not to make public information critical to national defence or ongoing operations.(3) This risk assessment must evaluate—(a) the degree of access granted to foreign entities, particularly those linked to systemic competitors and hostile actors, to genomic and DNA data collected within the United Kingdom;(b) the potential for genomic and DNA data to be exfiltrated outside of the United Kingdom;(c) the potential misuse of United Kingdom genomic and DNA data for dual-use or nefarious purposes;(d) the potential for such data to be used in a manner that could compromise the privacy or security of United Kingdom citizens or undermine national security and strategic advantage.(4) The risk assessment must consider and include, but is not limited to—(a) an analysis of the data handling and storage practices of genomics companies that are based in countries designated as systemic competitors and hostile actors,(b) an independent audit, including digital and physical forensic examination, at any company site that could have access to United Kingdom genomics data, and(c) evidence of clear disclosure statements to consumers of products and services from genomics companies subject to data sharing requirements in the countries where they are headquartered. (5) This risk assessment must be conducted as frequently as deemed necessary by the Secretary of State or the Information Commissioner to address evolving threats and ensure continued protection of the genomics sector from entities controlled, directly or indirectly, by countries designated as systemic competitors and hostile actors.(6) The Secretary of State may issue directives or guidelines based on the findings of the risk assessment to ensure compliance by companies or personnel operating within the genomics sector in the United Kingdom, safeguarding against identified risks and vulnerabilities to data privacy.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to ensure sufficient scrutiny of national security and data privacy risks related to advanced technology and areas of strategic interest for systemic competitors and hostile actors, inform the development of regulations or guidelines to mitigate those risks, and ensure security experts can scrutinise malign entities and guide researchers, consumers, businesses, and public bodies.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, I move Amendment 73 standing in my name which would require the Secretary of State to undertake a risk assessment on the data privacy risks associated with genomics and DNA companies that are headquartered in countries which the Government determine to be systemic competitors and hostile actors. The UK is a world leader in genomics research, and this a growing sector that makes an important contribution. The opportunities in genomics are enormous and we should take the steps needed to protect the UK’s leading role here.

I was pleased to hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, in Committee that:

“the Government have continued the important work of the UK Biological Security Strategy of 2023, including by conducting a full risk assessment and providing updated guidance to reduce the risks from the misuse of sensitive data”.

The Minister also gave the undertaking that the Government would

“brief the Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy on the findings of the risk assessment in the new year”.—[Official Report, 18/12/24; col. GC 124.]

I would be very grateful if the Minister could confirm whether the Joint Committee has been briefed and, if not, when that will happen.

I look forward to continuing to engage with Ministers on the issue of data security in the face of growing threats from international competitors and hostile actors.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, for giving me an opportunity to speak for 45 minutes on genomics, which I know everyone will be very grateful for. I shall resist that temptation and thank him for the amendment on security in genomic data.

As he is aware, the UK is a world leader in genomics, and its various datasets and studies have contributed to health globally. I also note that the UK Biological Security Strategy of 2023 has been endorsed by this Government and a variety of measures are under active consideration. I recognise the noble Viscount’s desire for quick movement on the issue and agree with him that this is of great importance. I reassure him that my officials are working at speed across government on this very issue. I would be very happy to brief him and other noble Lords present today on the findings of the risk assessment in due course. We have not yet engaged with the Joint Committee on National Security Strategy but will do shortly as per standard practice.

I hope that the noble Viscount will appreciate that this work is live and will grant a little patience on this issue. I look forward to engaging with him soon on this but, in the meantime, I would be grateful if he would withdraw his amendment.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the Minister for his clear response and for taking pity on the House and not giving us the full benefit of his knowledge of genomics. Meanwhile, I recognise that we have to move with deliberateness here and not rush into the wrong solution. I gratefully accept his offer of further briefings and beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 73 withdrawn.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I have the very dubious privilege of moving the final amendment on Report to this Bill. This is a probing amendment and the question is: what does retrospectivity mean? The noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochiel, asked a question of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, in Committee in December:

“Will the forthcoming changes to data protection law apply to such data that controllers and processors already hold?”


She replied that

“the new lawful ground of recognised legitimate interest will apply from the date of commencement and will not apply retrospectively”.—[Official Report, 10/12/24; cols. GC 435-437.]

But the question is not really whether the lawfulness is retrospective, but whether the changes made in the new law can be applied to any personal data previously collected and already held on the commencement date of the Act—so that is the exam question.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

It is indeed getting late. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for moving his amendment, and I really will be brief.

We do not oppose the government amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Vallance. I think the Minister should be able to address the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, given that the noble Lord’s amendment merely seeks clarification on the retrospective application of the provisions of the Bill within a month of the coming into force of the Act. It seems that the Government could make this change unnecessary by clarifying the position today. I hope the Minister will be able to address this in his remarks.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I will speak first to Amendment 76. I reassure noble Lords that the Government do not believe that this amendment has a material policy effect. Instead, it simply corrects the drafting of the Bill and ensures that an interpretation provision in Clause 66 commences on Royal Assent.

Amendment 74, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement Jones, would require the Secretary of State to publish a statement setting out whether any provisions in the Bill apply to controllers and processers retrospectively. Generally, provisions in Bills apply from the date of commencement unless there are strong policy or legal reasons for applying them retrospectively. The provisions in this Bill follow that general rule. For instance, data controllers will only be able to rely on the new lawful ground of recognised legitimate interests introduced by Clause 70 in respect of new processing activities in relation to personal data that take place after the date of commencement.

I recognise that noble Lords might have questions as to whether any of the Bill’s clauses can apply to personal data that is already held. That is the natural intent in some areas and, where appropriate, commencement regulations will provide further clarity. The Government intend to publish their plans for commencement on GOV.UK in due course and the ICO will also be updating its regulatory guidance in several key areas to help organisations prepare. We recognise that there can be complex lifecycles around the use of personal data and we will aim to ensure that how and when any new provisions can be relied on is made clear as part of the implementation process.

I hope that explanation goes some way to reassuring the noble Lord and that he will agree to withdraw his amendment.