Undersea Cables

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

The detection of breaks is done from land, but the ability to repair them is through an agreement with the commercial companies, which pay into a fund that allows a ship to be on 24/7 standby to provide protection. That is paid for by the companies that put the cables in place.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, we of course recognise and share the Government’s and House’s concern about increased Russian military activity around these undersea cables. I was pleased that the Minister a couple of times referenced the risk assessments going on, but can he tell the House a little more and expand on his earlier answers about those risk assessments? How do they take place and how often do they occur?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

The national risk assessment is undertaken regularly and led by the Cabinet Office. In this instance, DSIT is the department responsible for the risk to the cables overall, but it is in collaboration with the MoD, the Cabinet Office and others, particularly in relation to assessing risks other than those that I have outlined.

Large Language Models and Generative AI (Communications and Digital Committee Report)

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Thursday 21st November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, what a pleasure it is to address this compelling, balanced and, in my opinion, excellent report on large language models and generative AI. I thank not just my noble friend Lady Stowell but all noble Lords who were involved in its creation. Indeed, it was my pleasure at one point to appear before the committee in my former ministerial role. As ever, we are having an excellent debate today. I note the view of the noble Lord, Lord Knight, that it tends to be the usual suspects in these things, but very good they are too.

We have heard, particularly from my noble friend Lady Stowell and the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, about the need to foster competition. We have also heard about the copyright issue from a number of noble Lords, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Featherstone, Lady Wheatcroft and Lady Healy, and I will devote some more specific remarks to that shortly.

A number of speakers, and I agree with them, regretted the cancellation of the exascale project and got more deeply into the matter of compute and the investment and energy required for it. I hope the Minister will address that without rehearsing all the arguments about the black hole, which we can all probably recite for ourselves.

We had a very good corrective from the noble Lords, Lord Strasburger and Lord Griffiths of Bury Port, and my noble friend Lord Kamall, that the risks are far-reaching and too serious to treat lightly. In particular, I note the risk of deliberate misuse by powers out of our control. We heard about the need going forward for, if possible, greater clarity about regulatory plans and comparisons with the EU AI Act from my noble friend Lord Ranger. I very much enjoyed and respond to the remarks by the noble Lord, Lord Tarassenko, about data as a sovereign asset for the UK, whether in healthcare or anything else.

These points and all the points raised in the report underscore the immense potential of AI to revolutionise key sectors of our economy and our society, while also highlighting critical risks that must be addressed. I think we all recognise at heart the essential trade-off in AI policy. How do we foster the extraordinary innovation and growth that AI promises while ensuring it is deployed in ways that keep us safe?

However, today I shall focus more deeply on two areas. The first is copyright offshoring and the second is regulation strategy overall.

The issue of copyright and AI is deeply complex for many reasons. Many of them were very ably set out by my noble friend Lord Kamall. I am concerned that any solution that does not address the offshoring problem is not very far from pointless. Put simply, we could create between us the most exquisitely balanced, perfectly formed and simply explained AI regulation, but any AI lab that did not like it could, in many cases, scrape the same copyrighted content in another jurisdiction with regulations more to its liking. The EU’s AI Act addresses this problem by forbidding the use in the EU of AI tools that have infringed copyright during their training.

Even if this is workable in the EU—frankly, I have my doubts about that—there is a key ingredient missing that would make it workable anywhere. That ingredient is an internationally recognised technical standard to indicate copyright status, ownership and licence terms. Such a standard would allow content owners to watermark copyrighted materials. Whether the correct answer is pursuing an opt in or opt out of TDM is a topic for another day, but it would at least enable that to go forward technically. Crucially, it would allow national regulators to identify copyright infringements globally. Will the Minister say whether he accepts this premise and, if so, what progress he is aware of towards the development of an international technical standard of this kind?

I turn now to the topic of AI regulation strategy. I shall make two brief points. First, as a number of noble Lords put it very well, AI regulation has to adapt to fast-moving technology changes. That means that it has to target principles, rather than specific use cases where possible. Prescriptive regulation of technology does not just face early obsolescence, but relies fatally on necessarily rigid definitions of highly dynamic concepts.

Secondly, the application of AI is completely different across sectors. That means that the bulk of regulatory heavy lifting needs to be done by existing sector regulators. As set out in the previous Government’s White Paper, this work needs to be supported by central functions. Those include horizon scanning for future developments, co-ordination where AI cuts across sectors, supporting AI skills development, the provision of regulatory sandboxes and the development of data and other standards such as the ATRS. If these and other functions were to end up as the work of a single AI regulatory body, then so much the better, but I do not believe that such an incorporation is mission critical at this stage.

I was pleased that the committee’s report was generally supportive of this position and, indeed, refined it to great effect. Do the Government remain broadly aligned to this approach? If not, where will the differences lie?

While many of us may disagree to one degree or another on AI policy, I do not believe there is really any disagreement about what we are trying to achieve. We must seize this moment to champion a forward-looking AI strategy—one that places the UK at the forefront of global innovation while preserving our values of fairness, security, and opportunity for all.

Like the committee—or as we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, like many members of the committee—I remain at heart deeply optimistic. We can together ensure that AI serves as a tool to enhance lives, strengthen our economy, and secure our national interests. This is a hugely important policy area, so let me close by asking the Minister if he can update this House as regularly and frequently as possible on the regulation of AI and LLMs.

Satellites: Adverse Effects on Astronomy

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

This is a critical question. The Royal Institute of Navigation has recently—in fact, today—launched a paper on how to prepare for this. It is something that all critical national infrastructure will be urged to look at, to have a plan for what would happen in the event of GPS failure. There is a longer-term question about the alternatives to space-based navigation and there is active work going on in the UK on terrestrial approaches, including the use of quantum systems to try to get a robust secondary approach to PNT.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, now that over 70 nations have their own space agency, how will the Government pursue the widest and most effective possible international co-operation in support of Astra Carta’s aim,

“to care for the infinite wonders of the universe”?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

There is a series of international collaborations in place. We are a member of the European Space Agency. A large proportion of the £1.9 billion of the UK Space Agency money goes to the European Space Agency and our collaborators there. We also spend through the MoD and through UKRI. We are members of the UN bodies that deal with the question of a sustainable space sector and space environment. The space environment is increasingly important and needs attention. We will continue to raise this question at the UN bodies.

Science and Technology: Economy

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Thursday 31st October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, it has been an absolutely brilliant debate, and I join others in thanking the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, for bringing it forward. I also join others in congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Freeman. Many years from now, eventually “Walking with Dinosaurs” will be a fantastic title for her memoir, but we are not there yet. I have been asked to slightly curtail my remarks and I am very happy to do that. I hope noble Lords will forgive me if I do not reflect on everything that has been said in the debate, but rather offer, just to begin with, some of my personal highlights from what I heard.

As a theme, it is clear that we are as one in deeply recognising and valuing the contribution that science and technology can and will make to our economy. Sadly, and frustratingly, many different approaches have been advanced as to how we can best finance that. I hope that we can be on the path of constant improvement to get more investment into this crucial space. I noted a sense of ruefulness from my noble friend Lord Willetts as he said that the role of the Science Minister was to extract money from the Treasury; I am pleased to say that we have somewhat moved on from this position.

I was very struck by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, reminding us of the growing importance of international rivalry in this space. I think that is going to play an increasing part in our deliberations here.

The noble Lords, Lord St John of Bletso, Lord Tarassenko and Lord Drayson, asked, one way or another: where are our Metas or Alphabets? It is a question that certainly bugs me. Let us hope that, between us, we can move towards more of an answer. The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, spoke powerfully about the issue of IP retention in universities, and that is clearly something we need to continue to look at.

The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, raised the issue of standards and regulations. There are not many silver bullets in technology regulation, but standards will be one of them. International global standards, particularly for instance with the copyright issue in AI, are going to be a big part of that solution.

I absolutely share the wish of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle to foster a faster-growing tech community in the north-east of England. If I may, I commend to her the work of the brilliant organisation CyberNorth; she may know it already.

Innovation is not merely an advantage; it is the foundation of economic growth and global competitiveness. Science and tech are no longer confined to laboratories or research institutions; they are part of the fabric of almost all the work we are doing of any kind across this country.

As of last year, we are one of three countries in the world with a trillion-dollar tech sector. Today, that sector contributes £150 billion annually to the UK economy, a figure that reflects not only the sector’s rapid growth to this point but its remarkable potential for expansion. With emerging fields that have been mentioned many times—quantum AI, engineering biology, and so on—we have the opportunity to cement the UK’s status as a global leader in scientific and technological innovation.

Of course, the contributions of science and tech, as I enjoyed hearing from the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, are not limited to economic growth. They enhance our resilience in the face of global challenges. I frequently argue that for all the amazing scientific advances we have seen over recent years, perhaps the most impactful was the development of the Covid vaccine, which I think we can all agree underscored, among other things, the power of UK-led scientific innovation, saving lives and demonstrating the critical impact of robust scientific infrastructure.

Investment in science and technology is also an investment in the workforce of tomorrow. The noble Lord, Lord Mair, and others raised this point very powerfully, as did my noble friend Lord Willetts and the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Warwick. By prioritising education in STEM fields and by fostering partnerships between industry and academia, we are equipping future generations with the skills and knowledge required to thrive in a rapidly evolving landscape. It is not only essential for individual opportunity but vital to our ongoing economic competitiveness.

I want to address some pressing concerns raised by yesterday’s Budget. The Chancellor announced a significant allocation of £20.4 billion for research and development, including £6.1 billion aimed specifically at protecting core research funding. There is no doubt that this funding is crucial for advancing the core of our scientific curriculum. However, the research community has expressed some apprehensions regarding the implications of this. The Budget allocates an increased £2.7 billion for association with EU research programmes and covers the cost of the old Horizon Europe guarantee scheme. This means we are committing with this money not only to new funding but to managing the cost of past obligations. I would welcome some clarity from the Minister on how this is going to break down.

Further, as raised by my noble friend Lord Waldegrave, the abruptness of the decision over the summer to cancel the exascale computing investment—which was, by the way, fully funded through DSIT’s budget, contrary, I am afraid, to statements from the Government that I have heard from time to time—must stand as a significant red flag to AI investors, if only for its unexpectedness and suddenness. When we take this together with the additional costs and risks of hiring staff, the reduction of incentives to invest in technology and the—in my view, rather aggressive—treatment of non-domiciled investors, I think we have grounds for concern. I wonder whether, when the Minister rises, he could tell us to what he attributes our leadership today in science and tech. Is he concerned that these decisions may diminish that leadership and, if so, what do the Government propose to do about it?

That said, I am keen to close on a note of excitement and positivity. Ray Kurzweil, of “singularity” fame, argues that the time between major advances in science and technology diminishes exponentially. If he is right, the technologies available to us at the end of this Parliament will be truly staggering. So let us all be working together to make sure that as many of those breakthroughs as possible are delivered and safely exploited in this science and tech superpower, the United Kingdom.

Artificial Intelligence: Regulation

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Thursday 17th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

That is an area that of course comes under several other parts of regulation already. It is also an area where there are massive changes in the way that these models perform. If one looks at GPT-4 versus GPT-3—I know it is not facial recognition, but it gives an indication of the types of advances—it is about twice as good now as it was a year ago. These things are moving fast and there is indeed a need to understand exactly how facial recognition technology is valid and where it has problems in recognition.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, the supply chain for the development of the more advanced AI systems is, in almost every case, highly global in nature. That means that it becomes quite straightforward for AI developers to offshore their activities from any jurisdiction whose regulations they might prefer not to follow. This being the case, do the Government agree that the regulations for AI development, as distinguished mostly from use, are going to have to be global in nature? If the Government agree with that, how is it reflected in their plans for AI regulation going forward?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

The noble Viscount makes an important point. This will be global; there is no question about it. Therefore, there needs to be some degree of interoperability between different regions in terms of the regulations put in place. At the moment, as I said, of the two most advanced, the US is the biggest AI nation in the world and is developing a regulation along similar lines to ours, we believe. The EU is of course the most regulated place in the world for AI and we need to work out, in consultation over the next months, how to make sure that we work out where the areas of interoperability will lie.

Framework Convention on Artificial Intelligence

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

The convention sets out activities in the life cycle of AI systems, and they should not infringe our values of human rights, democratic processes and the effectiveness of democratic institutions or the rule of law. It applies to the public sector, to the public sector when using the private sector, and there is an obligation to consider how private sector activities can be taken into account when this is implemented in a national framework.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, international bodies currently working on AI safety and regulation include the UN, UNESCO, the ITU, the G7, the G20 and the GPI, among several others. Do the Government agree that although each of these groups is crucial and has a very important role to play in creating safe and well-regulated AI globally, they will be successful only to the extent that they are effectively co-ordinated? If so, what steps are the Government taking to bring that about?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

We are in active discussion with all those partners. As we consider an AI Act, we will work closely with partners in the US and elsewhere and apply it only to the limited number of companies at the very forefront of AI, to those models of tomorrow which carry particular risk and, again, where guard-rails have been asked for.

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 14th May 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Viscount Camrose]

That this House do not insist on its Amendments 9 and 19, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 19A.

19A: Because it is appropriate for the CMA to be required to act proportionately in relation to conduct requirements and pro-competition interventions.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

My Lords, I will also speak to Motions A1, B, B1, C, C1, C2 and D.

I start by thanking noble Lords for their constructive input and careful scrutiny during the passage of the Bill. We have created legislation that will drive innovation and deliver better outcomes for consumers across the UK by addressing barriers to competition in digital markets and tackling consumer rip-offs.

The Bill has been strengthened in many places in this House. However, today, I will speak to Motions A to D, which address amendments that remain to be agreed across the Bill. The Government ask that this House does not insist on the amendments rejected in the other place and that it agrees to the amendment proposed in lieu of changes proposed by noble Lords.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tyrie (Non-Afl)]

Does the Minister not agree that since, with a merits appeal, a fine could be reduced to nugatory amounts, that what would be considered equivalent to a full merits review of the substantive decision?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

That would be in respect only of the fine itself. Any other element of the decision, such as the imposition of new conduct requirements or other actions taken to correct anti-competitive effects in the market, would stand and would have been standing throughout the appeal in any event.

I turn to Motion B, which addresses Amendments 12 and 13, on the countervailing benefits exemption, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch. The amendment looks to revert the clause back to its original wording of

“the conduct is indispensable ... to … those benefits”.

The Government’s revised wording, which replaces “indispensable”, does not change the effect of the clause. It still requires the same high threshold to be met and has the same safeguards. To qualify for the exemption, SMS firms must establish that all the criteria are met. There must be no other reasonable, practicable way to achieve the same benefits to consumers with a less anti-competitive effect. I hope that noble Lords feel reassured that the Government’s drafting maintains the same robust threshold and keeps consumers at the heart of the pro-competition regime.

Your Lordships will remember Amendment 38, tabled by my noble friend Lord Lansley, which sought to place in the Bill a 40-day timeframe for the Secretary of State’s approval of CMA guidance. The Government listened carefully to concerns led by my noble friend relating to a risk of delay in the digital markets regime. We are absolutely committed to getting this regime up and running to start fixing competition problems and deliver greater consumer benefit.

To reinforce this commitment, the Government have tabled Amendment 38A in lieu. This takes the spirit of my noble friend’s amendment and merely adjusts the time limit to working days to align with other timelines in the Bill. It also asks for reasons if guidance is not approved within the time limit. I hope that this provides reassurances to noble Lords about our commitment to the digital markets regime. I thank my noble friend for championing this matter in earlier debates and for his support for the amendment in lieu.

Once again, I thank noble Lords for their contributions during the Bill’s passage and I look forward to others during this debate. Across this House, we are all committed to making the DMCC Bill the best and most effective legislation it can be. I therefore invite noble Lords to agree the government Motions before them. I beg to move.

Motion A1 (as an amendment to Motion A)

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

If we are not able to make progress on this, and if the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, wishes to test the opinion of the House, we will support him. I look forward to the Minister’s response on all these issues.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate today and, of course, throughout the development of this legislation. It has been a characteristically brilliant debate; I want to thank all noble Lords for their various and valuable views.

I turn first to the Motions tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, in relation to appeals and proportionality. I thank him for his continued engagement and constructive debate on these issues. We of course expect the CMA to behave in a proportionate manner at all times as it operates the digital market regime. However, today we are considering specifically the statutory requirement for proportionality in the Bill. We are making it clear that the DMU must design conduct requirements and PCIs to place as little burden as possible on firms, while still effectively addressing competition issues. The proposed amendments would not remove the reference to proportionality in Clause 21 and so, we feel, do not achieve their intended aim, but I shall set out the Government’s position on why proportionality is required.

On the question of the wording of “appropriate” versus “proportionate”, proportionality is a well-understood and precedented concept with a long history of case law. “Appropriate” would be a more subjective threshold, giving the CMA broader discretion. The Government’s position is that proportionality is the right threshold to be met in legislation due to the fact that it applies, in the vast majority of cases, because of ECHR considerations. It is the Government’s view that the same requirement for proportionality should apply whether or not ECHR rights are engaged.

As Article 1 of Protocol 1—A1P1—of the European Convention on Human Rights will apply to the vast majority of conduct requirements and PCIs imposed by the CMA, with the result that the courts will apply a proportionality requirement, we consider it important that it should be explicit that there is a statutory proportionality requirement for all conduct requirements and PCIs. We believe that proportionality should be considered beyond just those cases where A1P1 may apply, in particular when a conduct requirement or PCI would impact future contracts of an SMS firm.

The courts’ approach to proportionality in relation to consideration of ECHR rights has been set out by the Supreme Court, and we do not expect them to take a different approach here. Furthermore, the CAT will accord respect to the expert judgments of the regulator and will not seek to overturn its judgments lightly. I hope this answers the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks.

On appeals, I thank noble Lords for their engagement on this matter, and in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, for setting out the rationale for her Amendments 32B and 32C, which seek to provide further clarity about where on the merits appeals apply. I want to be clear that the Government’s intention is that only penalty decisions will be appealable on the merits and that this should not extend to earlier decisions about whether an infringement occurred. I do not consider these amendments necessary, for the following reasons.

The Bill draws a clear distinction between penalty decisions and those about infringements, with these being covered by separate Clauses 89 and 103. There is a Court of Appeal precedent in BCL v BASF 2009 that, in considering a similar competition framework, draws a clear distinction between infringement decisions and penalty decisions. The Government consider that the CAT and the higher courts will have no difficulty in making this distinction for digital markets appeals to give effect to the legislation as drafted.

I now turn to the Motion tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, in respect of the countervailing benefits exemption. I thank the noble Lord for his engagement with me and the Bill team on this important topic. The noble Lord has asked for clarification that the “indispensability” standard in Section 9 of the Competition Act 1998, and the wording,

“those benefits could not be realised without the conduct”,

are equivalent to each other. I want to be clear that the exemption within this regime and the exemption in Section 9 of the Competition Act 1998 are different. This is because they operate in wholly different contexts, with different criteria and processes. This would be the case however the exemption is worded in this Bill. That is why the Explanatory Notes refer to a “similar” exemption, because saying it is “equivalent” would be technically incorrect.

Having said that, the “indispensability” standard and the threshold of the Government’s wording,

“those benefits could not be realised without the conduct”,

are equally high. While the exemptions themselves are different, I hope I can reassure noble Lords that the Government’s view is that the standard—the height of the threshold—is, indeed, equivalent. The Government still believe that the clarity provided by simplifying the language provides greater certainty to all businesses, while ensuring that consumers get the best outcomes.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for his question in relation to the Google privacy sandbox case. The CMA considers a range of consumer benefits under its existing consumer objective. This can include the privacy of consumers. It worked closely with the ICO to assess data privacy concerns in its Google privacy sandbox investigation and we expect it would take a similar approach under this regime.

I urge all noble Lords to consider carefully the Motions put forward by the Government and hope all Members will feel able—

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

Will the Government update the Explanatory Notes?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Indeed. In principle I am very happy to update the Explanatory Notes, but I need to engage with ministerial colleagues. However, I see no reason why that would not be possible.

Meanwhile, I hope all noble Lords will feel able to support the Government’s position.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, before the Minister sits down, may I just press him on proportionality? I understand the argument to be that a proportionality test should be applied in this context even though it is not required in all cases by the European Convention on Human Rights. I see the Minister nodding. Will that now be the general position of the Government, because it is not the law in relation to judicial review generally that there is a proportionality test? If that is to the position of the Government, it would be a very significant development which some of us would welcome and some of us would not. I declare an interest, of course, as one of those lawyers referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, as looking to take advantage on behalf of their clients. It is a very real issue; how far does this go?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

It goes only so far as its application to the Bill now. I am not aware of any further measures to take it into other Bills and would not expect to see any.

[Lord Faulks (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s response on that issue. I asked him the same question that I have asked throughout these proceedings—it is the same question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick—and there does not seem, with great respect, to be an answer to it. The Minister has mostly allowed, to use a cricketing metaphor, the matter to go past the off stump without playing a shot. What really seems to be the position is that he says that proportionality will apply, even if the Human Rights Act or a convention right is not involved. But I think that, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, the Minister is saying, “But only in the case of this Bill”. What that means is that big tech is getting a special privilege not afforded to any other litigant in any other context. I ask noble Lords, “Is that a good look?” I do not think that it is.

The Commons reason for preferring “proportionate” to “appropriate” reads as follows:

“Because it is appropriate for the CMA to be required to act proportionately in relation to conduct requirements and pro-competition interventions”.


I do not know whether that was supposed to be a joke, but it is profoundly unsatisfactory. The Government have missed a trick—or rather, they have succumbed to considerable pressure. I welcome the Bill because there is a great deal about it which is good. Having thought very carefully, and with considerable reluctance, I propose to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Viscount Camrose]

That this House do not insist on its Amendments 12 and 13, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 13A.

13A: Because it is clearer for proportionality to appear as a separate consideration in the countervailing benefits exemption.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, I have already spoken to Motion B. I beg to move.

Motion B1 (as an amendment to Motion B)

[Lord Clement-Jones]

Tabled by

Leave out from “House” to end and insert “do not insist on its Amendment 12, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 13A, and do insist on its Amendment 13.”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Viscount Camrose]

That this House do not insist on its Amendments 26, 27, 28, 31 and 32, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 32A.

32A: Because it is appropriate for all appeals about the imposition of a penalty under Chapter 7 of Part 1 to be determined on the merits.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, I have already spoken to Motion C. I beg to move.

Motion C1 not moved.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Viscount Camrose]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 38, and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 38A in lieu.

38A: Page 70, line 37, at end insert—
“(5) When the CMA seek the approval of the Secretary of State for guidance, the Secretary of State must— (a) approve the guidance, or
(b) give reasons to the CMA for not approving it.
(6) The Secretary of State must comply with subsection (5) before the end of the 30th working day after the day on which the CMA seek the Secretary of State’s approval.”

Artificial Intelligence (Regulation) Bill [HL]

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

3rd reading
Friday 10th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

My Lords, I regret that I was unable to speak at Second Reading of the Bill. I am grateful to the government Benches for allowing my noble friend Lady Twycross to speak on my behalf on that occasion. However, I am pleased to be able to return to your Lordships’ House with a clean bill of health, to speak at Third Reading of this important Bill. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, on the progress of his Private Member’s Bill.

Having read the whole debate in Hansard, I think it is clear that there is consensus about the need for some kind of AI regulation. The purpose, form and extent of this regulation will, of course, require further debate. AI has the potential to transform the world and deliver life-changing benefits for working people: whether delivering relief through earlier cancer diagnosis or relieving traffic congestion for more efficient deliveries, AI can be a force for good. However, the most powerful AI models could, if left unchecked, spread misinformation, undermine elections and help terrorists to build weapons.

A Labour Government would urgently introduce binding regulation and establish a new regulatory innovation office for AI. This would make Britain the best place in the world to innovate, by speeding up decisions and providing clear direction based on our modern industrial strategy. We believe this will enable us to harness the enormous power of AI, while limiting potential damage and malicious use, so that it can contribute to our plans to get the economy growing and give Britain its future back.

The Bill sends an important message about the Government’s responsibility to acknowledge and address how AI affects people’s jobs, lives, data and privacy, in the rapidly changing technological environment in which we live. Once again, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, for bringing it forward, and I urge His Majesty’s Government to give proper consideration to the issues raised. As ever, I am grateful to noble Lords across the House for their contributions. We support and welcome the principles behind the Bill, and we wish it well as it goes to the other place.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

My Lords, I too sincerely thank my noble friend Lord Holmes for bringing forward the Bill. Indeed, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in what has been, in my opinion, a brilliant debate.

I want to reassure noble Lords that, since Second Reading of the Bill in March, the Government have continued to make progress in their regulatory approach to artificial intelligence. I will take this opportunity to provide an update on just a few developments in this space, some of which speak to the measures proposed by the Bill.

First, the Government want to build public visibility of what regulators are doing to implement our pro-innovation approach to AI. Noble Lords may recall that we wrote to key regulators in February asking them for an update on this. Regulators have now published their updates, which include an analysis of AI-related opportunities and risks in the areas that they regulate, and the actions that they are taking to address these. On 1 May, we published a GOV.UK page where people can access each regulator’s update.

We have taken steps to establish a multidisciplinary risk-monitoring function within the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology, bringing together expertise in risk, regulation and AI. This expertise will provide continuous examination of cross-cutting AI risks, including evaluating the effectiveness of interventions by government and regulators.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

Before the noble Viscount sits down, he listed a whole series of activities that are very welcome, but I said at Second Reading that I felt the Government were losing momentum, because the Prime Minister had set an international lead: the United Kingdom was going to lead the world and would be an example to everybody. It seems, with the Minister’s statement, that we have slipped back now. The European Union has set out its stall. If we are not going to have a legislative framework, we need to know that. I just hope the Government will reflect that the position the Prime Minister adopted at the beginning of this process was innovative, positive and good for the United Kingdom as a whole, but I fear that the loss of momentum means we will be slipping back down at a very rapid rate.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. I am not sure I accept the characterisation of a loss of momentum. We are, after all, co-hosting the AI safety summit along with our Korean friends in a couple of weeks. On moving very quickly to legislation, it has always been the Government’s position that it is better to have a deeper understanding of the specific risks of AI across each sector and all sectors before legislating too narrowly, and that there is a real advantage to waiting for the right moment to have judicious legislation that addresses specific risks, rather than blanket legislation that goes to all of them.

AI: Intellectual Property Rights

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Thursday 9th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare my technology interests, as set out in the register, as an adviser to Boston Ltd.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

My Lords, this is a complex and challenging area. We strongly support AI innovation in the UK, but this cannot be at the expense of our world-leading creative industries. Our goal is that both sectors should be able to grow together in partnership. We are currently working with DCMS to develop a way forward on copyright and AI. We will engage closely with interested stakeholders as we develop our approach.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, our great UK creatives—musicians who make such sweet sounds where otherwise there may be silence; writers who fill the blank page with words of meaning that move us; our photographers; our visual artists—are a creative community contributing billions to the UK economy, growing at twice the rate of the UK economy. In the light of this, why are the Government content for their work, their IP and their copyright to be so disrespected and unprotected in the face of artificial intelligence?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for the important point he raises, particularly stressing the importance to the United Kingdom of the creative industry, which contributes 6% of our GVA every year. The Government are far from content with this position and share the frustrations and concerns of many across the sector in trying to find a way forward on the AI and copyright issue. As I say, it is challenging and deeply complex. No jurisdiction anywhere has identified a truly satisfactory solution to this issue, but we continue to work internationally and nationally to seek one.

[Lord Ranger of Northwood (Con)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. As I said in my letter last week to the Secretary of State on behalf of the Communications and Digital Select Committee, the Government’s reluctance to take a clear position on copyright in the context of AI and large language models is leading to

“problematic business models … becoming entrenched and normalised”.

The Government urgently need to take a clear position, and soon. On a practical basis, what support are they giving to market-led initiatives to improve licensing deals for news publishers and to get collective licensing regimes off the ground, to ensure that smaller rights-holders are also not left behind?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend and her committee for that important letter. First, we must not underestimate the difficulty and complexity of the issues involved in resolving this question; there are very problematic jurisdictional and technical issues. That said, the Government greatly welcome any arrangement between private sector organisations finding a way forward on this; we can all learn a great deal from the success of those arrangements. We believe that a collaborative way forward on both sides, in partnership, will be a very important part of the eventual solution.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister was right to say that we should recognise that AI can bring opportunities to the creative sector. For example, nearly a decade after a near-fatal stroke, the musician Randy Travis has released a new song featuring AI-generated vocals. This has been done with his consent and the involvement of his record label, but elsewhere, as we have heard, AI tools are being widely used to create music in the style of established artists, despite no permission having been given and a total lack of creative control on the part of those artists and their representatives. Can the Minister outline how the Government are actively involving musicians, artists and writers in determining how best to protect that very precious intellectual property, while allowing creativity to flourish? I echo the noble Baroness’s theme: this is an urgent matter and we would like to hear how the Government will address it.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The issue raised by the noble Baroness is of deep concern to everybody. As I say, there are some very serious problems, not least regarding the jurisdiction where any alleged infringement may or may not have taken place. Of course, any jurisdiction that implements rules one way or the other will find that the AI work she sets out so compellingly is simply offshored elsewhere. The Government engage very closely with creative groups, including fair remuneration groups for musicians and many others, and will continue to do so, looking for a solution to this difficult problem.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Viscount told the Lords Communications and Digital Select Committee that he did not

“believe that infringing the rights of copyright holders is a necessary precondition for developing successful AI”.

Does he still hold to that view, and does he accept that it should be the clearly stated view of the Government?

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I do not believe that the AI industry, in the long term, will require long-standing copyright infringement for its success. That is and continues to be the Government’s view; any unauthorised use or copying of intellectual property or copyrighted material is an infringement. Of course, there is a range of exceptions to that, and there is the possibility of giving permission for that to happen. It becomes a very complex area, both legally and technologically, but, as I say, we continue to look for a solution.

[Lord Ranger of Northwood (Con)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

I am most grateful. AI is already creating IP of its own, but it is unable to register it because, by law, a human being needs to register IP. In trying to create a legislative bottle into which this genie could be reinserted, have the Government taken that into account?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The noble Lord raises a very interesting question. The laws surrounding the copyrighting of machine-generated content are getting fairly elderly now and certainly need to be looked at as part of the overall position going forward.

[Lord Ranger of Northwood (Con)]

My Lords, it is clear from the questions being raised that this is a very complex area, not least because we are bringing together the creative and legal industries and the technologists who are programming, developing and trying to stay ahead of the curve on this. What plans do the two departments involved in developing the code of practice have urgently to engage with industry—especially over the summer, when there will be a number of events and activities, including London Tech Week—so that we can more quickly develop the code and other requirements?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Perhaps my noble friend will forgive me if I gaze into a crystal ball for a moment and predict that the eventual solution to this will involve three elements: first, some modifications to our copyright legislation; secondly, some use of technology to enable a solution; and thirdly, internationally accepted standards of interoperability in any eventual solution. We engage widely with techUK and other technology partners, but above all we engage extensively internationally. I point to our specific engagements with the World Intellectual Property Organization, the UN agency the ITU, and of course the follow-up to the AI Safety Summit, which we are co-hosting in Seoul in a couple of weeks’ time.

[Baroness Featherstone (LD)]

My Lords, what action are the Government taking to compel AI companies to implement measures to monitor and report IP infringements?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

One of the principles we set out in our AI White Paper is transparency. That principle—repeated across the OECD and in the EU’s AI Act—will go a long way towards doing what the noble Baroness asks. There are, though, a number of technical difficulties in implementing transparency—not legally, from our side, but rather, the computer science problems associated with processing the very large quantities of data required to generate true transparency.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, a lot of people are excited by the prospects for AI. Indeed, this country is in the lead in developing such policies and the associated opportunities. As one of those involved in preparing the GDPR in Brussels, I am concerned that the opportunities and excitement associated with the use of AI must be balanced against the protection of individual privacy and the rights of corporate structures and individuals who are worried about the abuses that might occur unless legislators are up to date and moving fast enough to deal with these matters.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My noble friend makes some important points: AI must advance on the back of well-executed data protection. Let me take the opportunity to thank him for his outstanding contributions during the recently completed Committee stage of the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill. We continue to share the goal that he set up.

Deepfakes: General Election

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Wednesday 8th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure political deepfakes on social media are not used to undermine the outcome of the general election.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

My Lords, we are working to ensure we are ready to respond to the full range of threats to our democratic processes, including through the Defending Democracy Taskforce. It is already an election offence to make false statements of fact about the personal character or conduct of a candidate before or during an election. Additionally, under the Online Safety Act, where illegal political deepfakes are shared on social media, they must be removed.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, Google’s Kent Walker has talked of the “very serious” threat posed by AI-generated deepfakes and disinformation. The Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition and the Mayor of London have all been the subject of deepfakes, so it is not surprising that the Home Secretary has identified a critical window for collective action to preserve the integrity of the forthcoming election. Obviously, monitoring online content is important, but that will not prevent malign individuals or hostile foreign states trying to interfere in the forthcoming elections at home and abroad. Will the Minister finally take up our proposals to use the Data Protection Bill to fill the deepfake gap left by the Online Safety Act so that we can all have confidence in the outcome of the general election?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I start by saying that I very much share the view of the importance of protecting the forthcoming general election—and indeed every election—from online deepfakes, whether generated by AI or any other means. I think it is worth reminding the House that a range of existing criminal offences, such as the foreign interference offence, the false communications offence and offences under the Representation of the People Act, already address the use of deepfakes to malignly influence elections. While these Acts will go some way to deterring, I also think it is important to remind the House of the crucial non-legislative measures that we can take, continue to take and will take up to the completion of the election.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, would my noble friend not agree that there is an issue regarding the distortion of what politicians say, both through video and through the written word? Would he give me some indication of what the position is regarding Hansard and the coverage of what is said in this House and in the other place? Are we sufficiently protected if that written record is distorted or abused by others in the media?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Indeed—and let me first thank my noble friend for bringing up this important matter. That sounds to me like something that would be likely to be applied under the false communications offence in the Online Safety Act—Section 179—although I would not be able to say for sure. The tests that it would need to meet are that the information would have to be knowingly false and cause non-trivial physical or psychological harm to those offended, but that would seem to be the relevant offence.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, does not the Question from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, highlight that we must hold to account with legal liability not only those who create this kind of deepfake content and facilitate its spread, but those who enable the production of deepfakes with software, such as by having standards and risk-based regulation for generative AI systems, which the Government in their White Paper have resolutely refused to do?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The Government set out in their White Paper response that off-the-shelf AI software that can in part be used to create these kinds of deepfakes is not, in and of itself, something that we are considering placing any ban on. However, there are ranges of software, a sort of middle layer to the AI production, that can greatly facilitate the production of deepfakes of all kinds, not just political but other kinds of criminal deepfakes—and there the Government would be actively considering moving against those purpose-built criminal tools.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, given the use of deepfakes and malign disinformation facilitated by data theft, has the noble Viscount taken note of what the Biden Administration decided to do last week? The President signed into law the ability to ban TikTok, and the Chinese-owned company that owns it, because of America’s experience in the mid-term elections in 2022 and the elections in Taiwan earlier this year. Does the Minister not worry that, unless we take similar powers in the United Kingdom, the same thing will happen here?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Well, some of the enforcement measures under the Online Safety Act do allow for very significant moves against social media platforms that misuse their scale and presence to malign ends in this way, but of course the noble Lord is absolutely right and we will continue to look closely at the moves by the Biden Administration to see what we can learn from them for our approach.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to Andy Street for the way he responded to the circumstances in what was an incredibly close race. He must have been hugely disappointed. Sadly, another candidate in that race has since made false accusations of racism against a Labour volunteer, posting the volunteer’s name, picture and social media account, with the result that the volunteer subsequently received death threats in both calls and emails. Will the Minister join all noble Lords in condemning this kind of behaviour and confirm that, in his view, attacking party volunteers falls fully within the range of threats to the democratic process?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

First, let me absolutely endorse the noble Lord’s sentiment: this is a deplorable way to behave that should not be tolerated. From hearing the noble Lord speak of the actions, my assumption is that they would fall foul of the false communications offence under Section 179 of the Online Safety Act. As I say, these actions are absolutely unacceptable.

[Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)]

My Lords, noble Lords will be aware of the threat of AI-generated deepfake election messages flooding the internet during an election campaign. At the moment, only registered users have to put a digital imprint giving the provenance of the content on unpaid election material. Does the Minister think that a requirement to put a digital imprint on all unpaid election material should be introduced to counter fake election messages?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The noble Viscount is right to point to the digital imprint regime as one of the tools at our disposal for limiting the use of deepfakes. I think we would hesitate to have a blanket law that all materials of any kind would be required to have a digital imprint on them—but, needless to say, we will take away the idea and consider it further.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, if, at the very height of the forthcoming general election, deepfakes were to emerge, what would be the role of Ofcom, in particular regarding the taking down of material that is manifestly false? Does Ofcom have the resources necessary to do this?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

In the regrettable scenario mentioned by the noble Lord, such actions would generally fall to the Joint Election Security and Preparedness Unit and the election cell that will have been set up for the duration of the election to conduct rapid operational rebuttal and other responses to such things. We would not necessarily look to Ofcom until after the event because of the speed at which things would have to move.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, it is not just technology that can undermine the outcome of general elections; the Government are facilitating it, too. Jacob Rees-Mogg, former Business Secretary, famously said that voter ID rules were an attempt to “gerrymander” the electoral system. Does the Minister have any empirical evidence to show that the introduction of the voter ID system has reduced alleged fraud or encouraged more people to vote?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

It is a very interesting question, but I am afraid I have no information on that as it is not DSIT’s area at all. I will be very happy to find out and write to the noble Lord if that would help.