Ukraine

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Wednesday 30th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for bringing us this Statement.

The leadership in Ukraine and the courage of the Ukrainian people have been remarkable, and we pay tribute to them. I am very glad that we are standing with them, and we support the Government in this regard. Clearly, the suffering is terrible. As the noble Lord, Lord Collins, just said, it is surely right to say that war crimes have been committed here, and people must be held to account.

Can the Minister tell us what progress is being made in regard to humanitarian corridors? It is appalling that, as has happened elsewhere in conflict, such corridors can become opportunities for targeting the most vulnerable. It is vital that those responsible are brought to account.

Clearly, the political tectonic plates have shifted with Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. The increased focus and unity of NATO and the EU is striking, but that unity does not fully extend globally, as the Minister will know. I would like to ask him a few questions about that. Commissioner Borrell and others have described Mariupol as “our Aleppo”, but at least two Middle Eastern Foreign Ministers have said that Aleppo is their Aleppo. Does the Minister pick up a sense that across some parts of the Middle East, Africa and Latin America, there is some concern that the response to Ukraine was not mirrored when other conflicts arose elsewhere? How are the Government tackling that?

How are we working internationally to make sure that this crisis is recognised as being of vital importance globally, and that the unprovoked invasion of one country by another is not accepted? Are we having useful dialogue with China and India in this regard? Does the Minister now recognise that it is vital that we have closer co-operation with the EU so that we can address our common interests, whether in foreign affairs or defence, more effectively? Will that now be taken forward? I have put this to the Minister many times, as he knows. Surely it is crystal clear that this must now happen.

Does the Minister also recognise that European countries have welcomed refugees with open arms but we have simply put up barriers in their way? Are the Government not ashamed of the paltry number of visas issued? Will they move to the same arrangement as the Irish, for example, and do the paperwork afterwards? I think of all those homes offered by the British people, yet few refugees are allowed through. The Statement mentions, I think, 150,000 homes offered. Will the noble Lord tell us exactly how many Ukrainian visas have now been granted? How could we ever have asked people to scan in documents that they might not have with them as they fled and that these were translated with a certified translation?

I welcome the action on sanctions but why did we allow time to slip before we put sanctions on individuals, some of whom have made it clear that they have offloaded their properties or passed them to their families in trusts? Will we pursue those family members? Will we increase the capacity in the sanctions unit? What are we doing to close loopholes that may be used in the overseas territories?

Are the Government working with others to try to get trusted information into Russia? Do the Government now recognise how important the BBC is, not only in the UK but worldwide? I hope they will not just praise the BBC World Service, as they did in the integrated review, while at the same time undermining it at home.

There are of course major consequences of this crisis. What is being done to address the potential food shortages across the Middle East and Africa? We already have famine in Yemen and Afghanistan. Do the Government recognise the potential for instability? Are the rumours right that, despite this, the Government are about to slash the ODA budget that goes towards tackling instability? Is it not now time to restore the aid budget to 0.7% of GNI?

I welcome that we are seeking to end reliance on Russian gas and oil. We are of course not in the position of the Germans and others in this regard. However, surely this is the time when we need to recognise the urgency of the climate crisis, and that this shows that developing our own renewables is not only the right thing to do but helps us to defend against reliance on countries such as Russia.

Above all, we must continue to be strenuous in our efforts to support those in Ukraine who have been subject to such a terrible and unprovoked attack. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, once again I thank the noble Lord Collins, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for their support of the Government’s position—indeed our country’s position—in our solidarity with and support for Ukraine and its people, and for the courageous leadership within Ukraine under President Zelensky and other colleagues and Ministers. We continue to engage with them on a daily basis at the very highest level.

I will address some of the specific questions. First, I totally agree with the noble Lord Collins, in his opening remarks about the importance of our position and the collaboration and strength that we have shown across both Houses, both sides of this House and, equally, as a country as a whole. I certainly saw that when I visited Poland last week, which also provided me with detailed insight into some of the questions that the noble Lord and the noble Baroness raised. I had the occasion to go right to the border point where crossings are taking place, and I can share with noble Lords the heart-wrenching scene of seeing split families coming through. The majority were women and children—97%, as estimated by international agencies, including the UN—as boys over the age of 16 and men below the age of 60 are not crossing the border. Many unaccompanied families are coming through.

I will come on to the specific figures of those wishing to come to the UK but what was evident to me from speaking directly to those crossing the border and fleeing the conflict was their desire to remain very near to Ukraine. One can imagine oneself in that position; if you are split from a father, a brother, a sister or any family member, your inclination would be to be as close by them as you could be.

The other thing I want to put on the record is that I acknowledge, as I am sure all noble Lords do, the absolutely sterling role that the Polish Government are playing in this respect. I saw evidence of that in the reception at the border, through to the processing, immediate support and support centres. Although it was tragic to see what was unfolding, what I witnessed at one of the two major border crossings was a structured and co-ordinated approach to the Ukrainians who were crossing over.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, referred to the International Criminal Court. He will recall that we engaged early on with the prosecutor at the ICC, Karim Khan, and that my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister and Justice Secretary visited The Hague. I assure the noble Lord that we discussed exact requirements specifically with the prosecutor, including financial and technical support, and we are extending our full support to him. This was also a matter for discussion with the Deputy Foreign Minister of Poland during my visit to Warsaw last week; we agreed on the importance of co-operation, including both Justice Ministries co-operating with each other in collecting evidence. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has been engaging at a senior level with all Foreign Ministers, including those across NATO —the noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked about this—on an almost daily basis through meetings conducted either here or directly in Brussels.

The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, asked about partnerships with our European neighbours. As I have often said to her during our different debates over many years, we have left the European Union but we have not left Europe. This crisis has demonstrated the importance of aligning ourselves and co-operating with our European partners, as we have done on sanctions and in our co-ordinated response to the humanitarian needs of the Ukrainian people. It is important that we continue to act.

On the noble Baroness’s main point on defence, that is being discussed with our NATO allies. This will continue to be the case.

I shall look to provide an update on humanitarian support, with a detailed breakdown, through the regular FCDO briefings we do for parliamentarians. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that we are looking specifically at the needs on the ground. We have engaged directly with the Ukrainians and international agencies—including the UNHCR, the ICRC and the IOM, among others—to ensure that their requirements are met immediately; the DEC appeal also illustrated the generosity of the British people. In doing so, we are employing humanitarian, emergency medical and rapid deployment teams in all neighbouring countries. Next week, I or my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary will attend a meeting in Germany about co-ordination with European partners on the response to Moldova, which is a member of neither NATO nor the EU but has its own territorial challenges with the Russian presence nearby and its border with Ukraine being subject to particular Russian intent.

I hope I am not jumping the gun in saying that, all things being equal, there will be further secondary legislation. I have certainly signed further secondary legislation on the sanctions regime—I can assure the noble Lord of that—which I believe will be laid at 5 pm. I assure the noble Lord and the noble Baroness that we are working at pace to ensure that we are fully aligned with our American, Canadian, Australian and EU partners in a co-ordinated response to sanctions.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, mentioned weapons support and changing needs. He may be aware that, in close co-ordination with our NATO partners, my right honourable friend the Defence Secretary has organised for tomorrow a meeting with our key partners on this very subject, including how we co-ordinate effectively with them to support Ukraine’s defensive needs through military support.

On the issue of humanitarian corridors, raised by both the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and the noble Lord, Lord Collins, the fact is that they can be guaranteed only if both sides subscribe to them. I have spoken directly to UN agencies and others working directly on the ground; indeed, I met various charities and NGOs. Unfortunately, one thing they report is the lack of any authorisation or approval being given by the Russians to allow humanitarian support. That said, brave, courageous individuals and organisations are accessing Ukraine. I asked someone from a charity who I will not name specifically what they did. He said, “Minister, we load things up in a van, we get our courageous drivers to drive through the border and we tell them to go as far as they can. When they face missiles, bombings or barriers, they stop and distribute their aid.”

Clearly, there is a need for co-ordination. I witnessed good co-ordination on the ground, but more needs to be done in terms of the internal situation—the massive displacement of Ukrainians within Ukraine itself. Undoubtedly, Poland is taking the majority of people fleeing the conflict, but some are returning. On the border, I witnessed women who had dropped their children with friends and family in Poland and were seeking to return, not just to support brothers, husbands and fathers but to fight. That reflects the courageous nature of the Ukrainian people.

On the refugee schemes, these are the totals I can share at the moment. For the Home Office refugee schemes, as of 29 March there have been 31,200 applications for the family scheme and 28,300 applications for the sponsorship scheme. There have been 22,800 family scheme visas issued and 2,700 sponsorship scheme visas issued. I will keep updating noble Lords with the figures, but what is very clear is that most Ukrainians wish to stay near the border point.

There is also a QR code on a leaflet produced by the UNHCR and other agencies which contains not only information on safety and safeguarding—what happens once refugees cross the border, fleeing the conflict—but additional information on the various sponsorship schemes, including ours, included in the code. We are working in co-ordination with the Polish Government to see what we can do to enhance that information, not just in English but in other languages. I saw notices in several languages, and the accessibility of those various schemes was very clear through the current QR code.

I will continue to update noble Lords directly, as I have done, but, in concluding on their specific questions, I thank both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Collins, for their continued support.

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[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is of course right. We have seen that the scenarios that were perhaps envisaged in Moscow have played out very differently in Ukraine, and recent announcements have reflected that. However, I add a massive note of caution. Notwithstanding what is happening on the ground to the Russian forces, the Russian military is, nevertheless, very well equipped and there may be alternatives. The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, talked about Mariupol; we have seen what has happened through the use of missiles and their indiscriminate destruction. That cannot be ruled out in any shape or form. Of course, any peace negotiation is rightly being led directly by the Ukrainians and President Zelensky. We fully support his efforts and are in close co-ordination and contact with His Excellency the President, Foreign Minister Koluba and others. Noble Lords will be aware of various initiatives that are taking place.

On the issue of scenarios playing out, we have not reached that point yet. I briefed members of the Council of Europe yesterday, and it was very evident that, at some point in time, it will be about not just Ukraine but the impact of the sanctions. It is right that we have acted in co-ordination. But our battle is not with the people of Russia; they are also suffering. Whatever emerges in Russia—one hopes that the voices of democracy and inclusion will be strengthened there—there will be a need at some point to look towards what this means for Russia, its economy and, most importantly, its people.

I did not answer one point on Mariupol and Aleppo. I have had that scenario painted to me, as with other conflicts, and I will say two things on it. First, the noble Baroness will have seen our announcement on Afghanistan today—we are hosting a donor conference. One should not compare and contrast human suffering; it is important that we stand firm in our support for those who suffer through conflict. Aleppo is our conflict, as is Mariupol, and we must look at them through that lens.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

First, I commend the Government for their speedy and effective reaction to this crisis, praised by President Zelensky over and above many of our allies, including our European ones.

Secondly, the Statement says:

“Strength is the only thing Putin understands.”


Unfortunately, that is incorrect: he also understands weakness, which is why he had the Germans and others over a barrel over their dependence on Russian gas. He looks at us and sees that, as we speak, we are reducing our Army by 11% and reducing the number of our aircraft and ships. Could the Minister go back to the Government and say that the integrated defence review needs revisiting?

Thirdly, I am delighted to see that we have sanctioned the Wagner Group—however it is pronounced—but could he please assure me that the security services are looking into its funding? I have heard some very distressing tales about funding by foreign Governments who are not Russian.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on my noble friend’s final point, in any sanctions we of course look at a full range of factors to determine who we sanction. We are dynamic in our response, looking at the implications of any sanctions that we have imposed and wider ones that need to apply. I hear very clearly my noble friend’s comments on our defence, but, of course, in advance of this conflict we increased defence spending. Nevertheless, conflicts such as these bring in an important consideration of ensuring that our integrated review and its outcomes are applicable and relevant to the world as we see it today.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, has the Minister had the opportunity to read the words written yesterday by Richard Haass, the veteran diplomat and peacemaker and the current president of the Council on Foreign Relations? I refer to them because he very clearly stated that, at this stage, there ought to be two priorities for his Government and other Governments who support Ukraine. I refer to him because I agree with him. First, we need to concentrate on ending this war on terms that are acceptable to Ukraine. Secondly, in the meantime, we need to discourage and deter escalation by President Putin—that is crucially important. So we should all think about what is a plausible war termination, because I believe that we will be asked that question sooner rather than later. We should also be very careful about what we say, because if it gives President Putin the sense that he has nothing to lose, he will be discouraged from any form of restraint in those circumstances. I wonder whether our Government are approaching the situation in this way, appreciating—as I am sure the Minister does, having come to know him—that this ought to be very important to all of us.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I have not actually seen the statement raised by the noble Lord, but I will look at it. In principle, I agree with both points raised. The first is very clear: when it comes to peace, any resolution must be led and agreed by Ukraine, as I said in response to the noble Lord, Lord McDonald. That remains part and parcel of our thinking. On Mr Putin and Russia, President Zelensky has repeatedly been calling for direct talks, because it is important that the leaders of those two countries sit down to determine their future pathway. It is also important that other countries that support Ukraine, as we do, fully support direct contact in such negotiations.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend gave the numbers of those who had applied for visas and of visas that had been issued. The latter seemed to be a small percentage of the former. What can we do to expedite visas for those who wish to accept the widely proffered hospitality of our country?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Harrington and I have clearly heard about the importance of expediting the visa process, and the Government have moved in that direction. All noble Lords agree about the basic biometric and security checks necessary, but I will again pass on the importance of speeding up the process. Visas are being issued. Although this is a snapshot, I have met a number of Ukrainians and they want to go back home. Their immediate sense is to be near Ukraine. No person I met did not say that they hoped to return home in days and weeks; they are certainly not thinking about months.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, last week when visiting Lithuania, I was struck when meeting refugees, as the Minister was, that as civilians dropped off their loved ones they returned to Ukraine in their cars to take up arms and fight against Putin’s illegal war. Given the war crimes committed in Mariupol and elsewhere, and which were referred to earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Collins, what can the Minister tell us about the appointment of Sir Howard Morrison to expedite prosecutions of those responsible? Can he respond to the letter that I sent him recently urging him to organise a meeting in your Lordships’ House with Karim Khan QC, the prosecutor for the ICC? In her Statement to the Commons, the Foreign Secretary said:

“We must ensure that any future talks do not end up selling out Ukraine, or repeating the mistakes of the past.”—[Official Report, Commons, 28/3/22; col. 593.]


Was she not right that whatever is decided must be the decision of the Ukrainian people? We must stand with them at this terrible time of trial.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I totally agree with the noble Lord’s final statement. On his earlier point about the appointment of Sir Howard Morrison, of course someone of his calibre is much welcomed; he has great insight and will bring great expertise. I have received the noble Lord’s letter about arranging further meetings; I cannot guarantee Karim Khan’s schedule, but I assure the noble Lord that we are working closely with him. In the division of responsibilities, the Deputy Prime Minister and Justice Secretary is leading the engagement on how we can best support his mission, but I will certainly mention it to Karim that, next time he is planning to be in London, we should arrange an appropriate briefing.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is aware that, in any conflict, it is useful to get into the mind of your opponent. That is extremely difficult with Putin, as we know, but he has previous; he has committed crimes, not just oppressing his own people in Russia, but in this country—Alexander Litvinenko and the Salisbury poisonings. A couple of weeks ago, I had lunch with Professor Michael Borschevsky, who is a renowned student of Russia because his wife was murdered by Putin’s FSB over 20 years ago. Professor Borschevsky came to this country and now has a British passport. We had a very interesting lunch at which he produced this article, which I want to share with the House for important reasons.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

There is a question coming. The important thing is that this moved me so much that I asked him to translate it into English, so that I could share it with your Lordships at some point. This was written by Alexander Litvinenko over 20 years ago. In effect, he was signing his own death warrant. He said:

“When the whole world was chasing Bin Laden and saving itself from global terrorism, another monster, similar to Hitler, ripened by blood behind the Kremlin walls. If not stopped early, this maniac could bring civilisation to yet another world massacre in which furnace millions and millions of human lives could perish.”


That was very telling for me. In the light of the descriptions that I have outlined and that we know about, will the Minister give further assurance that he and the Government will act to make sure that war crimes are duly brought to account and the persons responsible punished?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the short answer to the noble Lord’s second question is yes. I have already indicated how we are working closely with the ICC. On the noble Lord’s earlier point about opposition within Russia, I agree with his assessment: we have seen what Mr Putin is doing with opposition in his own country, not least the horrendous treatment of Alexei Navalny and his move to a high-security prison. Obviously, our thoughts and prayers are with him and his family, but it underlines Putin’s view of opposition in his own country.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, in the discussion about the possible terms of a settlement, it has been suggested that the United Kingdom and other countries become guarantors of the security of Ukraine. Have the Government given consideration to that possibility, and would they support it?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I have seen some of the details which have been coming out but, as I said earlier, we have not reached a point where such detailed discussions take place. Of course we have noted some of the points that have been raised. As I said earlier, we will support Ukraine in ensuring that any decision on any negotiation is led and agreed by it.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I have listened very carefully. I do not believe that at any time I have said, “We’re leaving it to Ukraine”; I said that we are 100% squarely behind Ukraine, both defensively and militarily as well as in support we are giving diplomatically. I can share no better example of engagement than that our Prime Minister and President Zelensky talk regularly once, if not twice, a day. We are providing multilateral support. I shall be at the UN; it is our presidency next month. A lot of our debates will be focused not just on support for Ukraine in the current conflict but on accountability. We will convene a debate on sexual violence in conflict—there have been reports of that in Ukraine. I can give the absolute assurance that, whether it is the FCDO, the Ministry of Defence or the Government as a whole, we are squarely with Ukraine, shoulder to shoulder.

As for the future and what happens with Russia and Mr Putin, I agree with the noble Baroness. That is why I exercised caution when it was suggested that perhaps Russia was defeated or is retreating. We are very cynical about that, because Russia has weaponry which it can use and deploy at any time.

[Baroness Meyer (Con)]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Meyer (Con)]

My Lords, as someone of Russian origin, my grandparents having fled the Bolsheviks, can I ask the Minister to ensure that people do not mix up the Putin regime with the Russian people? I have had a few nasty tweets asking whether I am a Russian spy. One must be quite careful. The Russian people are appalled by what is happening.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, earlier in the Statement I said exactly that: our fight or argument or dispute—and the Ukrainians’ argument also—is not with the Russian people. We stand by the Russian people. In Russia, over 60 cities held protests and were targeted. I assure my noble friend that what she says is very much part and parcel of our thinking.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Geddes) (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, is taking part remotely. I invite him to speak.

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[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, at the moment this is speculation. It was clear that Mr Abramovich has a close relationship with Putin, and the fact that he was sanctioned was the right thing to do.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, today I had a response from the Home Office that it did not know how many people had come into the UK with visas on the Homes for Ukraine scheme. Can the Government translate that website into Ukrainian so that it is more user-friendly? I have sent a list of suggested improvements to the relevant Minister.

I want to ask also about humanitarian aid. Of the 44 cancer centres in Ukraine, only eight now remain. Patients are being moved into Poland. Lithuania and Moldova’s health facilities are at capacity. In the humanitarian aid that we are providing, is there pain relief, and are there anaesthetic agents, surgical supplies and antibiotics going into Ukraine and neighbouring countries, including anti-cancer drugs to those adjacent cancer centres? Do we recognise that many of the medical staff within Ukraine have been killed or injured and therefore that their numbers are seriously depleted? Are we supporting those agencies from the UK which are providing rapid online support to trauma surgeons within Ukraine?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the final question, the short answer is yes. We are working very closely with our colleagues in the Department of Health regarding the requirements in Ukraine and neighbouring countries. To be very open, I asked what the specific needs were for Poland in terms of beds, medicines, et cetera. As the noble Baroness will be aware, we have delivered a sizeable amount of humanitarian and medical support to near-neighbouring countries. I do not want to paint a false impression; undoubtedly, the challenge remains getting into Ukraine in a safe and secure way, as I have indicated already. On the issue of cancer patients, the noble Baroness will be aware that the United Kingdom itself evacuated 21 paediatric oncology patients from Warsaw for treatment by the NHS in the UK and will continue to work very closely with Poland and other partners to ensure that those who need urgent treatment, either in country or in the UK, will be facilitated.