Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
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Bus Services Bill [HL]
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(8 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Judd
I would like to pick up something that my noble friend has said. I hope that in her concern to bring home—and I applaud this—just how concerned and helpful so many people are about the plight of the disabled, we do not play down the importance of public education. I travel on London buses a good deal as well, and it is sometimes extremely exasperating to see able-bodied people sitting firmly and almost defiantly in the seats that are supposed to be available, and not giving way. Therefore it is important that there is a culture of support within the bus. I do not advocate a sort of indoctrination programme but suggest that if we have an effective public awareness programme with the maximum possible amount of helpful information about what is expected of people on the bus itself, that will support the majority of people, who are concerned and want to help. As so often in life, a small number of people cause the problems, so you want an atmosphere in which those who are concerned about this are actively supportive of the bus driver.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this extremely important debate on a particularly important Bill. If one reflects just on the events of recent weeks, perhaps much can be made of the progress of the Bus Services Bill, in sometimes turbulent waters. Certainly the Bill is progressing on time—albeit that there has been a small delay because of discussions about our position on our exit from the European Union, which is understandable.
At this juncture I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Snape, in particular, for welcoming me back to the Dispatch Box. Confucius said, “We live in interesting times”—and sometimes, when reshuffles occur, in uncertain times. However, on this occasion I return to the Department for Transport as a full-time Minister. I do so as the Minister for Aviation, among other things, so I am sure that I will enjoy some interesting debates in your Lordships’ House as the Minister responsible for that portfolio.
Lord Snape
Let me be the first to congratulate the noble Lord. Having invited him to come to see the buses in Birmingham—he has not yet been able to take up that invitation—given his new responsibilities, I will be delighted to accompany him on one of these aeroplane trips that Ministers go on.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I am sure there is a film about that—“Planes, Trains and Automobiles”—and I am sure we will have our own version of that. I thank the noble Lord most sincerely for his warm words. I will say one more thing before addressing the amendments. Much is sometimes said about your Lordships’ House with regard to the role we play and our revising nature. Since I joined the House well over five years ago I have always maintained that it possesses much expertise. It is important, at times when we look at the scrutiny of Bills, that we look also at the expertise we possess.
Perhaps there is also a challenge for all Front-Benchers in your Lordships’ House. I have already alluded to my portfolio responsibilities. Those who represent their respective parties in your Lordships’ House have to speak to a much wider portfolio. The challenge—or maybe it is an opportunity we all enjoy—reflected not least in this afternoon’s proceedings, is demonstrated by the fact that so far, as the Minister responsible for aviation, I have managed to answer a Question at Question Time about rail and I am now taking through the Bus Services Bill. Again, that reflects the diversity of the House of Lords.
On the amendments, I have of course had various correspondence on this important issue, including with the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, who cannot be with us today. I thank in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, for her customary introduction of the amendments. It is always helpful to bring these amendments to life by highlighting practical examples, which she always does, so I thank her for that. I have a great deal of sympathy with the question of how we should ensure that all passengers have the confidence to travel by bus. The amendments in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Campbell and Lady Brinton, seek to ensure that the rights and interests of disabled passengers are fully protected when an enhanced partnership scheme is developed and subsequently operated. I assure noble Lords that I entirely agree with the sentiment of these proposals. Disabled passengers should be able to access and use bus services on the same terms as those who are not disabled.
The Equality Act 2010 includes provisions on transport infrastructure and vehicle access, and the Public Service Vehicles Accessibility Regulations 2000 set out the accessibility requirements which apply to certain buses. Buses have to be accessible to disabled people, who must be able to travel in comfort. Among other things, they must not be discriminated against in accessing transport—and this does not mean just installing ramps and widening doorways for wheelchair users. The accessibility regulations require facilities such as low-floor boarding devices, visual contrast on step edges, handholds and handrails, priority seats and provision for passengers in wheelchairs.
From January this year, all single-deck buses designed to carry more than 22 passengers on local and scheduled routes need to be compliant with the regulations and double-deck buses will need to be compliant by January 2017. This legislation will make it unlawful for bus operators to disregard the needs of disabled people, including wheelchair users, and they will have to comply with the requirements of the accessibility regulations.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)
My Lords, perhaps I may interrupt the noble Lord for one minute to ask whether disabled people themselves are able to have an input into that disability awareness training. That is very important.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I will come to that point in a moment and I thank the noble Baroness for her intervention. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, who raised the importance of helping drivers to understand the potential needs of people with a range of impairments and to respond to them directly and positively. The Department for Transport is currently working with Mott MacDonald, representatives of disabled people and the bus industry to review examples of disability awareness training from across the transport sector. Our intention is to publish best-practice guidance well ahead of the introduction of the mandatory requirement. I hope that, by working with the industry to embed this framework, we will help to improve bus drivers’ understanding of their role and that this, in turn, will enable disabled people to travel by bus with greater confidence.
I turn to Amendment 126. For many of us, missing our stop is an inconvenience—by golly, I think we have all been there, and sometimes it is our own fault—but for many visually impaired people the risk of alighting at the wrong location and of being stranded and unable to get back is enough to prevent them travelling at all. Noble Lords will know that the charity Guide Dogs has already campaigned hard on this matter, and it is one on which noble Lords have expressed clear views. The Bill already enables enhanced partnership schemes to specify requirements about providing information to passengers by placing electronic equipment within vehicles. Franchising authorities may choose to require the provision of accessible information in their local service contracts.
The noble Baroness’s amendment goes a step further and proposes amending the Public Service Vehicles Accessibility Regulations—the PSVAR—to require information to be provided that is accessible to blind and partially sighted people. I am grateful to her for proposing such a pragmatic solution, particularly in specifying the information that should be provided, not the means of delivering it. I assure noble Lords that I therefore intend to consider the noble Baroness’s amendment and, in doing so, I will reflect on a number of potential concerns around the proposal as it is currently drafted. For example, within the current drafting, it is not entirely clear whether the PSVAR is the right vehicle to use to introduce any such requirements, given that present provisions in those regulations relate to the physical presence of equipment on buses rather than the provision of service or the level of information.
There is also a question of timing. The PSVAR were originally made in 2000 and operators have had over a decade to prepare for the requirements becoming mandatory, including planning to deal with the resulting costs. I am sure that noble Lords will agree that, in making vehicles more accessible to disabled passengers, we would not wish to put at risk the services that many rely on. Yet I fear that smaller operators may struggle to comply with such new requirements and that the provision of some services may become untenable. This is an issue that I have discussed with the noble Baroness outside the Chamber as well. Given this, I hope that noble Lords will understand why I cannot accept the amendment as it is currently presented. However, I understand the very real concerns expressed at Second Reading, which the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, seeks to address, and I therefore intend to give it further consideration.
Issues have been raised about consultation and working with the industry—and working with those who know best. Noble Lords will know that the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee—DPTAC—has a statutory role in advising the Government on the transport needs of disabled people. Last month, its current chairman, Keith Richards, addressed the DfT board, where I was present. I know that the committee sees the improvement of on-board information as an important priority. I remember sitting at that board meeting and listening to the presentation. I immediately put forward to both my team and that of the Minister responsible for buses, Andrew Jones, that we need to consider their engagement and involvement. As I said during that very meeting, the Bus Services Bill is an opportunity to ensure that we can address the concerns. I intend to consider further the amendments of both the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell. In doing so, I assure noble Lords that the DPTAC will be involved fully. This Bill provides an important opportunity—as I have said throughout the passage of the Bill thus far—to ensure that the rights of disabled people are at the heart of the planning and operation of bus services. It is vital that any additional provisions address these important issues in the round.
There was an additional question by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, about Oxfordshire bus cuts. It is certainly our understanding that the situation in Oxford is not perhaps as stark as he suggested. My understanding is that the council has been working with local bus operators to minimise the impact of the changes, with a relatively large number of services being taken up commercially and new types of community transport also being put in place. I am sure that this is something that we can look at specifically outside the Chamber, if there are other details that the noble Lord wishes to provide.
I hope that I have underlined that the Government are serious about this issue. I welcome the engagement that we have had both within and outside this Chamber, which will continue—I can say that with a degree more certainty today than perhaps I could a week or so ago, certainly as far as I am concerned—although we should never count on these things.
On a more serious note, it is important that we continue to work to see how we can improve the Bill and address this important issue. I look forward to further discussions on this matter and trust that, with the reassurance that I have given to noble Lords at this juncture of the seriousness with which the Government intend to consider the amendments before us and proceed with these proposals, the noble Baroness will be minded to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, I am grateful for the response from the Minister and I am sure we would all appreciate the chance for further discussion. I am certainly not one to say that we have got the wording exactly right in our amendments. However, I want to clarify something about the disability awareness training that the Minister responded to. To paraphrase him, he said: “Don’t worry because it’s a mandatory requirement, or will be in 2018, arising from the EU legislation”. He then went on to say, “We are already reviewing our EU obligations”. That seems to be a contradiction. Will it happen? Is it mandatory, or will it be in the melting pot of a Brexit review that may do away with it as unnecessary red tape in some sort of bonfire?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
This is important, so I will put my words into a letter for all noble Lords’ consideration. However, I reassure noble Lords and the noble Baroness in particular that we were mandated and signed up to the EU provision. Certainly, the intent behind the Government’s consideration of this is that whatever provisions were within that regulation are reflected in the obligations that the Government proceed with. I cannot present the noble Baroness with the exact chapter and verse about how that may be mandated, but because of the importance of the issue, I will write to her in that respect.
Baroness Brinton
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his considered response and for the progress that has been made since Second Reading. I am sure that the Committee will look forward to further discussions and, I hope, when we get to Report, some real progress on this group of amendments.
One reason why I was slightly concerned about the Minister’s initial response was the implicit understanding that, if the enhanced partnerships are there for all passengers and the Equality Act says that everybody must make all reasonable adjustments for disabled people, there will therefore be enough safety for disabled passengers on buses. The amendments were tabled because at the moment there is not enough provision for disabled people. We want to hardwire that into the legislation and into the regulations.
I am particularly concerned about the difference between the bus sector’s arrangements for disabled people’s protection policies and those of the rail sector—the bus sector’s are not nearly so strong. I hope that we will make progress on that area before Report.
I am also sad but understand why, with the case currently in the Supreme Court, the Minister suggests that we defer discussion on Amendment 99A. What is clear—and this picks up the point made by the noble Lords, Lord Snape and Lord Judd, about how we get people to work well—is that the whole problem of this complex issue about wheelchair space and access is down to what the bus driver is enabled to do, which is why the conduct regulations are so important. If the Supreme Court does not make its own judgment—in an earlier hearing, it said that it should be for Parliament to decide—I hope that the Government will immediately make changes to ensure that drivers have the right, reasonably, to move passengers.
Lord Low of Dalston
Will the Minister write to us all and not just the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, about the application in due course of the EU regulation and how that is to be effected?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Of course. I am pleased to give that reassurance. Implicit in most of the discussions we have had thus far is that, if a particular issue is raised by a noble Lord, I will include all noble Lords in discussions and correspondence.
Baroness Brinton
I also thank the Minister for his helpful letters and assistance with meetings over the past few months. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, as this is the first time I have spoken in Committee today I draw the Committee’s attention to my being a member of a local authority and a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I am very supportive of Amendment 84A, moved by my noble friend Lord Berkeley, which seeks to put in the Bill a requirement that an enhanced partnership scheme,
“must state the minimum standards of service to be provided”.
It seems sensible that we should state clearly what the expected minimum standards are for a scheme. My noble friend laid out clearly the reasons why. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, will give a positive response.
I am supportive of the other amendments in the group as well. Amendment 84B, again in the name of my noble friend Lord Berkeley, would toughen up the clause by replacing “may” with “must”. All of us want to see the Bill become law and improve the bus services provided to people outside London. Where we can, being much clearer and certain on what is to be done is helpful. In this respect, removing “may” and inserting “must” is helpful. Amendments 85 and 86 in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, would place a requirement on enhanced partnership schemes to consider what are the other requirements or standards to be provided.
The final amendment in this group is in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Jones of Whitchurch. It seeks to add a further provision on the collection of qualitative performance measures, specifying that these could include matters of passenger satisfaction. The service that passengers receive in all respects should be measured and taken account of. If people are unhappy about the cleanliness of their bus or other matters when they travel, that should be taken account of by the authorities. I look forward to the noble Lord’s response to these amendments.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions during this short debate. When we discuss new tools the Bill provides for local authorities to improve their bus services, it is important to bear in mind how local bus services are currently planned and provided. As noble Lords know, bus companies are responsible for providing local bus services; they design and deliver these services. Local authorities do not necessarily play any part in this, but they can work with their local bus companies to influence and help shape the services provided. These services are not run under contract to the authority. Of course, local authorities can tender for socially necessary bus services to complement the commercial network. As noble Lords may be aware, only 17% of total bus mileage in England outside London is supported in this way by local authorities, with the remainder being provided on a commercial basis.
The enhanced partnership schemes are designed to cover a broader geographical area than the advanced quality partnership schemes we have already debated. Enhanced partnership schemes would enable local authorities to introduce a wide range of standards, including things such as vehicle standards, smart-ticketing requirements, types of tickets sold, and even the price of a multi-operator ticket, provided these receive majority support from local operators. Once agreed, all operators running, or wishing to run, services in the EPS area will have to comply with the specified standards.
New Sections 138C(3) and 138C(4), to be introduced by the Bill, set out the detailed requirements that may be imposed by local authorities as part of an enhanced partnership scheme. If included in a scheme, these become mandatory requirements for all services in the enhanced partnership area.
I turn to the amendments and first to Amendment 84A, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. The Bill already stipulates in new Section 138H that any requirements imposed under the enhanced partnership scheme are to be included in the scheme. Once the scheme is made, these requirements will apply to all local bus services in the area.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, the first amendment in this group was moved by the noble Earl, Lord Attlee. It is not an amendment that I can support as it is not a pro-passenger amendment. It goes against the intention of the Bill, which is to improve bus services outside London and increase the number of passengers and journeys. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson: I find the noble Earl’s amendment a bit puzzling. I was not persuaded by his remarks in moving it and if it would take potential benefits away from passengers, I cannot support it.
The remaining amendments in this group are all in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw. In effect, Amendments 96, 98 and 109 provide that regulations may specify what constitutes unreasonable objections to a scheme and, where authorities believe that objections are unreasonable, for an appeals mechanism to the traffic commissioner. It is very important that any proposed scheme cannot be wrecked through objections intended simply to stop the scheme coming into effect. These amendments offer some protection to avoid such situations arising. Amendments 97, 99 and 110 provide that regulations may not be made unless a draft is laid before both Houses of Parliament, which is good practice. I am always strongly in favour of allowing Parliament to consider regulations which give the Secretary of State power to take action. The amendments would also provide a useful level of protection for the Secretary of State, and the Government would be wise to take that protection. The additional level of parliamentary scrutiny is always very welcome.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I thank noble Lords who have spoken on this group of amendments. An enhanced partnership scheme is designed to be developed collaboratively between bus operators and their local transport authority, a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. The scheme can, of course, be made only if the operators of local bus services in the area are generally on board with the proposal. Enhanced partnerships will be created in what remains a deregulated market. That is why bus operators affected by such a scheme will be able to voice their objections to the scheme at key points. The local authority can proceed with the proposals only if a sufficient number of operators do not object. “Sufficient number” will be defined in secondary legislation, but it is likely to be based on the number of operators and their market share. We provided further information on our thinking in the policy scoping notes which were made available to noble Lords last month.
Amendment 87 would require all bus operators eligible to object to an enhanced partnership scheme to agree to any proposals that included requirements about: purchasing tickets or paying fares; publicising bus services, fares or ticketing; and the price of multi-operator tickets. If unanimous agreement could be reached by operators in the area, there is nothing to prevent these measures being introduced currently, but such agreement often cannot be reached. That is why the Bill seeks to prevent a potentially small minority view blocking important improvements to bus services.
I turn to Amendments 96, 98 and 109. The local bus operators that cast their vote are all private commercial companies, and each must determine what the effect of the proposals would be on its business. This is important because it is those operators that will end up paying for most, if not all, of the reforms. The amendments proposed by the noble Baroness would undermine their commercial freedom by giving the traffic commissioner a say in determining, on appeal from a local authority, whether an objection is unreasonable.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I assure the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, that I am in comforting mode, and I hope that I have reflected that in Committee.
On Amendment 91, the aim of any enhanced partnership scheme is to improve the bus offering to passengers. I therefore agree that proper consultation with groups representing passengers is very important. However, the Bill already includes such a requirement. Under new Section 138F(6)(b) of the Transport Act 2000, local authorities must consult organisations representing bus users as they think fit. The amendment would largely replicate this current provision. I am sure that noble Lords will come to this, so it is appropriate that I focus on it. The “as they think fit” element in the current provision is important, because the relevant local authority, or authorities, will be best placed to make a judgment about the right level of passenger engagement in a particular circumstance. For example, a scheme covering the whole of a city may have an already established, and possibly vocal, local bus passenger group that can provide feedback. However, smaller schemes may not have any relevant local user group or representatives. In that case, the authority may need to carry out other, bespoke arrangements, such as leaflets being handed out on the street, or notices in newspapers.
Turning to Amendment 93, in developing a partnership the local authority must strike a balance between the negative effects of potential restrictions to open competition and the wider benefits that the arrangement will bring. The Bill requires authorities to carry out an assessment of that balance when considering an enhanced partnership scheme. However, the Competition and Markets Authority retains powers to examine the authority’s assessment after the scheme is introduced if, for example, it receives a complaint from an operator. I believe it is right that the CMA should retain that power as there is no guarantee that local authorities will always get the balance right. Having said that, the CMA is a statutory consultee on enhanced partnership schemes and this gives it an opportunity to provide a steer to the local authority at that development phase.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, raised the issue of consulting the CMA. I assure the noble Lord that officials at the DfT had a number of meetings with the CMA and, as I have already said, the CMA has a statutory power to comment on Bills, which it cannot exercise before the Bill is published.
The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, talked about the CMA letter. We have received it and are considering the CMA’s recommendations. We will respond to it. It is standard for a Minister to say “in due course,” but to pre-empt a question I shall explain that I have received further clarification and it will be before Report. We will share that with noble Lords. There are number of ways to take on board the points that the CMA raised. In considering them, we do not intend to see any impossible hurdles for local authorities.
It is also important to be clear that this legislation does not permit the CMA to impose financial penalties on bus operators which are simply complying with a partnership scheme in good faith, so there is nothing here for operators or local authorities to fear.
In Amendment 95, the noble Baroness raises an important issue about the need for consultations to be conducted in a manner, and over a time period, that is accessible to all. I agree entirely with her aims. I would expect local authorities, under current arrangements for consultations, to think carefully about their approach to ensure that as many people as possible are able to respond fully. Proposals about local bus services are likely to have a large impact on local communities, and I will give further consideration to how best to address the helpful points that have been raised.
Turning to Amendments 108 and 111, the Bill makes provision for an enhanced partnership plan—the high-level strategy document—and at least one scheme which details the changes to bus services on the ground. Once the plan, and at least one scheme, are in place, the Bill allows them to be varied or revoked. This is a sensible provision to deal with, for example, unforeseen circumstances. One of the details of these provisions is that no later than 14 days after the date on which the variation to the plan or scheme is made, the local authority making the variation must give notice of it. This includes, in new Section138M(6)(a), giving notice appropriate for bringing the proposals to the attention of persons in the local authority’s area. This wording exists for a particular purpose because the degree to which the notice must be publicised will vary depending on the size and scope of the plan and scheme. If the plan and scheme cover, say, a large city, the local authority may take the view that these persons include individual bus passengers or even all local residents. In smaller schemes, the local authority may consider it sufficient to give notice only to, say, a local bus users’ group or, in the case of a very limited scheme, those living along a particular bus route affected by the change. Bus users are also likely to be more interested in changes to the scheme—the services on the ground—than they are in the high-level strategic plan.
The amendment suggested by the noble Baroness requires that the local authority should always seek to give notice to bus users. This may not be relevant to minor changes—for example, ticketing retail requirements —and it may be interpreted by local authorities or indeed the courts to mean that all bus users in the area need to be informed of all changes. There may also be some issues with the interpretation of “bus users”. Are they current users, future users or potential users? The latter two categories could include just about everyone. So, while I agree with the principle being raised, on balance I feel that the Bill covers the issue appropriately.
I hope the explanations I have given will enable the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. I will reflect on the Minister’s comments and in particular I will read very carefully what he said about consultation appearing elsewhere in the Bill. This may be something that I will bring back on Report, but at this stage I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
I support my noble friend Lord Berkeley in these two amendments. I look forward to the Minister’s response. It is right that the traffic commissioner should have all the relevant information in front of him. Putting that into the Bill will ensure that when decisions are made they are robust and we do not get situations where there are needless complaints because people have not taken on board what they should have done. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I shall take Amendment 111A first. It would require the traffic commissioner to take account of relevant information provided by a local authority when deciding whether to accept an application to register a service in an enhanced partnership area.
First, I assure the noble Lord that local authorities have an opportunity to provide such information about every application to register or vary a local bus service, whether in an enhanced partnership or not. This is because the traffic commissioner is obliged, under existing legislation, to seek views from the relevant local authority about the proposed registrations of all local bus services.
In general, this is to ensure that important matters, such as whether the vehicles proposed to be used are suitable for the roads they will operate on, can be fully addressed. In the case of enhanced partnerships, this already affords the local authority an opportunity to determine whether the proposed registration meets any requirements imposed under an enhanced partnership scheme.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, it is difficult to agree with everyone on this point. In response to my noble friend Lord Snape, nobody is going to run a community bus service if a bus service is already running. Presumably that service would be making a profit under his definition, so in theory there would not be a need for another one.
Turning to the amendment, the community bus route is based on the community interest company model, which I imagine was introduced by the Labour Government 10 or 15 years ago, although I cannot remember exactly when. I found one CIC on the internet called the Dales and Bowland Community Interest Company, which runs bus services in the Dales. The point is that it is not designed to make a profit—in fact, it is not allowed to make a profit unless it reinvests it. Unless something like that operated, it is pretty clear that there would be no bus service, so I suspect that, for areas which do not have bus services at the moment or which are thought to be unsuitable for such services, this kind of model makes a really good contribution.
One benefit of the CIC model is that it is very easy to set up—I am involved in one at the moment, although not in connection with buses—and it is easier to get funding for a CIC than it sometimes is for a commercial operation. Officials in the Department for Transport have basically said, “In some circumstances we would be pleased to consider a contribution from the department or from local authorities”. It might be easier to give it to a CIC which demonstrated that there was a need and that it was prepared to work towards participating in providing a service than it would be to give it to a local authority.
I have slight concerns about the text of the amendment. My noble friend Lord Snape talked about the six-month moratorium, but I think that the principle is very sound. I believe that community buses were one of the main reasons that CICs were set up in the first place. I hope that, when the Minister replies, he will look on the principle with favour and, if the text is not quite right, I hope that that can be discussed before the next stage. Integrating all the other bus services that we are talking about in the Bill with ones that would not operate without some community involvement—not to make a profit but just to provide a service for the people who need it—is a very important element.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I know that, as has been said, local bus services are very important to our local communities. As noble Lords have said, they act as a lifeline for many, getting people to and from work. Whether the services are required for education, health or leisure facilities, I say at the outset that I sympathise with the aims of the amendment and agree that bus routes can have a real community worth. I am also aware of the issues that many people are experiencing at the moment with bus services being reduced or cut. There is no doubt that many local authorities are facing funding issues and have difficult decisions to make about the services that they may be able to subsidise.
It may be helpful if I say a little about the community transport sector and the total transport initiative, which I think will be of interest to noble Lords and which can help achieve the outcomes that I think are intended by the amendment.
The community transport sector can offer services that address local needs and increase patronage, particularly where commercial bus services are not viable. The sector is well placed to serve more isolated communities and can provide crucial services linking individuals and communities to existing transport networks, work, education, shops and so on.
The department is extremely supportive of the sector, with our recent £25 million community minibus fund helping more than 300 local groups across England. The total transport initiative also offers a significant opportunity to make the funding available to authorities and public bodies for the provision of transport go further. This involves integrating the services that are currently commissioned by different central and local government agencies, allowing resources to be used more efficiently and resulting in services to passengers that are more effective at meeting their needs.
Although I sympathise with the aims of the amendment, I do not think that it will resolve any issues relating to the continued provision of services on routes that are deemed to be of community value. I agree that where services are to be cut or reduced significantly in frequency, commercial operators, or local authorities in the case of subsidised services, should do all they can to consult and inform local communities. However, I do not think it is reasonable to force operators to continue to operate a service, potentially to their financial detriment, for a period of six months. Operators of registered bus services are, in any event, obliged to give a traffic commissioner at least 56 days’ notice of their intention to stop running a service.
That said, I agree that there is more we can do to champion the community transport sector, seeking to use public funding for transport in the most efficient ways. I will also think further on the point raised by noble Lords regarding training and advice for local community groups to help them understand the options that are open to them. I would encourage local authorities, communities and operators to work together to address issues relating to the continuity of services to passengers.
The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, raised the specific issue of funding for bus services to enable people to access education. I note the important points that she made and agree totally that young people need access to transport to get to a school or further education college, as well as for employment purposes. However, I believe that this is a policy matter in which my colleagues in the Department for Education and the Department for Communities and Local Government also have an interest. I will therefore speak to colleagues in both those departments and write to the noble Baroness in respect of the points that she has raised, copying other noble Lords into that correspondence.
I hope that the explanation that I have given has in part persuaded noble Lords that the Government understand the community worth of local bus services and are keen to find ways to ensure that local communities can work together with a view to addressing issues and increasing the understanding of passenger concerns. I hope that I have gone some way to assuring the noble Baroness to the extent that she feels able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
Amendment 123A, moved by my noble friend Lord Berkeley, is one that I am delighted to support. As I have said, the Bill is about improving bus services for passengers. Ensuring that the voice of passengers is heard is central to that aim and that is why this amendment is so important. It requires the transport authority to set out how users will be involved in monitoring and evaluating the scheme, and it sets up a complaints process with a body named to review complaints.
Only by having a mechanism for effective passenger input to deal with complaints and other issues can the transport authority have the information that it needs to plan for better services, deal with unforeseen problems and make things better for the future. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, can give a positive response to this short debate, or we may return to the matter on Report.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, as has been said by those noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate, this is something that we have talked about in terms of the principle. The amendment would ensure that local transport authorities set out mechanisms through which passengers are involved in the monitoring and evaluation of any scheme that is implemented as a result of the Bill.
Turning first to the aspect of the amendment that relates to passenger representation, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, proposed a similar amendment which was discussed on the second day in Committee. As I said then, hearing from passengers helps authorities and operators to understand the needs of their local communities and to design schemes that can bring real benefits. I am also keen to ensure that any authority implementing either a franchising or partnership scheme thinks carefully about the outcomes it is looking to achieve, and how it will evaluate and monitor the performance of the scheme. I further agree that passengers should be involved in that process, as they will be the ones with the day-to-day experience of using the services.
I am therefore happy to consider how best to accommodate this. I will consider what the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said about how the Government plan to outline this and whether we look to further guidance where we can better set out our wider expectations relating to how passengers should be involved throughout the process, both while schemes are being developed and once they have been implemented. I will provide, as the noble Lord requested, further clarification in advance of Report.
Turning to the second half of the amendment, which relates to complaints procedures, I agree that it is important that passengers’ voices are heard and that their complaints are dealt with effectively.
It is always good to be in advance of the Box note. I have just received one that says, “I would be pleased to write to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, in that respect”. It shows that Ministers can think for themselves. That may be a startling revelation to the Box, but I am sure my officials are well versed in how I work.
There is a well-established procedure for handling complaints about bus services, whereby complaints are first made to the operator. If the passenger remains dissatisfied, they can be taken up by Bus Users UK and finally by the Bus Appeals Body. This procedure has been endorsed by Transport Focus, the statutory champion for bus passengers. I am keen to ensure that passengers who use services specified under a scheme of the kind set out in the Bill have access to a complaints procedure at least as good as the one currently in place.
I recognise that the authority may have a role to play in dealing with complaints, particularly where it has introduced franchising. I therefore agree entirely that complaints procedures should be clear to all passengers, and that any authority introducing a franchising scheme in particular should clarify its role in the process, working with Bus Users UK and others. I suggest that we have further discussions on these matters and hope that, with the reassurances I have given and the commitment to write to noble Lords in advance of Report, there is sufficient reassurance of the seriousness with which I intend to consider this proposal, and the noble Lord will be minded to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Berkeley
I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate and the Minister for his reply. I think he has also responded to my Amendments 124A and 124B, but if he has not he can do so. It would be good to have a letter from him covering all these things because they are all interrelated. I am pleased that he has seized on the need to get the right information and then make sure that it is independent and circulated so that people know about it. That is the best way of incentivising operators to do better if they are failing. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Snape
I support my noble friend on Amendment 124. I asked the Minister previously to come to Birmingham to see what is being done under the partnership in that city—not that I am qualified to send these invitations, but still. I send the same invitation to my colleagues on the Front Bench because the Bus Alliance recently published a pamphlet about the work that it is doing in the West Midlands, particularly on environmental matters, which would be of interest to my noble friend who moved the amendment.
I do not know whether the West Midlands Bus Alliance pamphlet has been widely circulated—I did suggest that it should go to noble Lords on all sides of the Chamber who have been participating in the Committee stage. Under the chapter entitled “Air Quality”, the alliance states:
“All buses operating in the West Midlands will be Euro V, Euro VI or better by 2020”.
It lists operator investment under the Bus Alliance Partnership in the West Midlands as comprising 49 diesel electric hybrids to be delivered by Diamond, a company based in the West Midlands, and National Express West Midlands through the Government’s Green Bus Fund. Further, there are 21 Travel de Courcey buses—a company based in Coventry—which have been,
“converted from Euro II and III to Euro VI”,
again with help from the Clean Bus Technology Fund. In addition,
“A further successful bid to the Clean Bus Technology Fund will see National Express convert 150 buses from Euro III to Euro VI”,
standards prior to 2020.
That is what can be done and it ought to be done countrywide. If anything, I suggest that the amendment could be toughened up to ensure that what is being done in the West Midlands under the Bus Alliance is done around the country if we are serious about improving air quality—particularly, but not solely, in our major towns and cities.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, an important element of the Bill is the availability of journey planning and information about bus services. This clause will facilitate the provision of information about timetables, fares, routes, tickets and live information about bus arrival times and enable it to be accessed openly, which should lead to better journey planning information for passengers. I should say to the noble Lord, Lord Snape, that of course I recall his kind invitation and my acceptance of it. However, when I returned to the department it was my understanding that my honourable friend Andrew Jones would take up his offer. There is no reason why both of us cannot take up his offer and I shall certainly look into exactly where we are in that respect. The focus is on the provision of information that will be helpful to passengers in making informed decisions about whether to make their journey by bus or another transport mode.
I shall turn first to the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, whereby the information that may be prescribed would include information about the environmental impact of bus operations and vehicles, including information on the emissions of the vehicles in use. I am sympathetic to the desire of noble Lords to ensure that operators and local authorities are aware of the impact of local bus services on the environment. However, I do not believe that this information is crucial for journey planning purposes. Local authorities would already be aware of the environmental impact of buses on the local area. Other parts of the Bill will give local authorities greater powers to influence the types of vehicles used by operators when providing services.
The noble Baroness and the noble Lord have also proposed further amendments whereby the information that may be prescribed would include information about complaints made about bus services, including their number and nature, as well as performance statistics on matters such as punctuality and reliability. Again, I am sympathetic to the desire to ensure that passengers have access to complaint and performance statistics, but I am sure that noble Lords will agree that raw complaints data should be read with a degree of caution as by themselves they do not necessarily give a full picture of the performance of a service. That said, I would not seek to play down the importance of complaints. There can be instances where well-organised campaigns on a specific issue can give the impression that a service is rather worse than it actually is and could deter passengers from using the bus as a consequence. I recognise that punctuality and reliability are important factors for passengers using bus services. I therefore reassure both noble Lords that this clause has been drafted in such a way that the release of punctuality data could be included in regulations made by the Secretary of State if it was considered appropriate after consultation with stakeholders.
The amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, would extend to matters such as the,
“helpfulness of the bus driver and comfort”,
of the vehicle. Matters such as these are subjective and are best covered by evidence-based customer satisfaction research of the kind conducted by Transport Focus which puts them into their correct context, in particular through the Bus Passenger Survey.
Lord Berkeley
When the noble Lord responded to my amendment about punctuality and so on, he said that those matters could be set out in regulations following consultation with stakeholders. To me, stakeholders are mainly the bus operators and they really will not want their punctuality to be monitored. I hope that the stakeholders will include passenger representatives and others who might have a different view.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Certainly the discussions that we have had to date reflect exactly what the noble Lord has articulated. Having a single stakeholder in a service which has a much wider emphasis is of concern. I note that the noble Lord rightfully wants to put representative groups for bus users at the centre of what we are seeking to do here. I understand the issue that the noble Lord has raised.
I turn next to the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, whereby the Secretary of State would have to ensure that any regulations under these provisions always make provision for the information to be freely available and for registration information to be provided to a traffic commissioner. I sympathise with the noble Baroness in wanting to ensure that the information is freely available. We want to encourage the development and use of apps and journey planners, a point we debated at Second Reading. However, there may be circumstances where it becomes necessary to limit access, and the obvious question is where that might be. There may be cases where the design of an app is such that it imposes a strain on the technical infrastructure which supports the release of the information or a poorly designed app that makes excessive demands for frequent information updates. Those are just a couple of the examples that come to mind.
It may also be appropriate to time-limit the disclosure of certain information—for instance, about fares—which is being shared in good faith but is often commercially confidential until the day of the fare change, a point made by my noble friend Lord Attlee in the debate at Second Reading. The disclosure of commercially confidential information was also raised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. I will consider again how best to address the committee’s concerns with the aim of bringing forward amendments on Report. Again, if I can provide further clarification in advance, I will certainly seek to update noble Lords.
I hope that with the explanation I have given, the noble Lord will feel minded to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his response. The debate has covered a wide variety of issues and the response has been helpful. Indeed, the noble Lord has been helpful through all the stages of the Bill and we thank him for that. I am happy to withdraw the amendment and we look forward to seeing what he brings back on Report.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, my reading of this clause is that even those authorities that are running bus services now will not be able to do so in future. That is very serious. To respond to the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, if a local authority wishes to run a bus service, it does not need a franchise itself: it can just run the service. Ditto, it does not have to have an enhanced partnership with itself: it can just run the service. So it seems to me that if the local authority wanted to run the service it could just do it if this clause was not there. It does not need to have a conflict of interest.
I support all noble Lords on this side of the House who have spoken. This is a really bad clause. It has many similarities with the railway industry, which we can go into. I very much hope that we will see the end of it quite soon.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, it was all going so well. I am of course deeply hurt that the noble Baroness suggested that this was nasty and vindictive. I am sure the noble Baroness was referring to the—
Baroness Randerson
I am sure the Minister accepts that I applied those adjectives to the clause, not to him.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Of course—I was only teasing. I understand and appreciate that. During the course of Committee thus far—I hope and am sure that noble Lords will recognise this—it has always been my intention to listen very carefully to contributions by all noble Lords regarding all elements of the Bill.
I will briefly outline where the Government stand on Clause 21. Again, I am sure we agree that private sector innovation has achieved a great deal for the bus sector. Across the country, operators are introducing smart cards, installing wi-fi and co-ordinating timetables, and some 89% of buses now comply with accessibility standards. But, as we have said previously, there is a requirement to ensure 100% compliance. All this progress is down to operators taking decisions that benefit passengers. Again, that sentiment is shared by all noble Lords. It shows that deregulation of the industry has achieved a great deal for passengers.
I am sure that many recognise that private bus companies, with some exceptions, which I acknowledge and which the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, pointed out, such as Reading Buses and Nottingham City Transport to name but a few existing municipal bus companies, have continued to deliver local bus services for more than 30 years. We want to see them continue to thrive.
The Bill introduces a number of new tools that will enable local authorities to take more control over the bus services that are provided in their area. I assure noble Lords that we want to get the balance right between the local authority influence and the role that the private sector bus operators can play, and ensure both are incentivised to deliver the best services for passengers.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I have always had concerns about the fuel efficiency argument that the noble Baroness so skilfully articulated. I do not oppose her vision but do not quite understand why the proposed new grant to local authorities would not get swallowed up in their general budget and not result in any additional services. If the noble Baroness would touch on that point, it would be helpful.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, as a Minister, one gets used to looking in front of one and not behind. I apologise to my noble friend for not realising that he wished to speak and for attempting to speak before he did. I thank the noble Baroness for her contribution. Her proposed new clause seeks to devolve the bus service operators grant, or BSOG as it is known, to local authorities, and would require authorities to consider joint funding of subsidised local bus services in partnership with specialist and community operators.
I know that the issue of funding for bus services was raised by many noble Lords during earlier debates on the Bill, and I agree that it is a key issue that we need to tackle. BSOG is a payment made to bus operators by my department to help support local bus services outside London. Since 2013-14, some £40 million a year of BSOG has been devolved to local authorities outside London, rather than paid to the bus operators. This money is for the services that local authorities subsidise themselves through the tendering system. However, the remaining BSOG funding is paid to bus operators for commercial rather than tendered services, reflecting the fact that in the current model of bus-service delivery bus operators are responsible for providing our local bus services and deciding which services to run.
I agree that where an authority takes on the financial risk associated with providing bus services through establishing a system of franchising they should have access to the BSOG funding that would have been paid to bus companies in the area. So BSOG funding will be devolved to local authorities where franchising is established. However, it is important to remember that where franchising is not established the deregulated market remains, with bus operators responsible for devising and running local bus services.
For many bus operators, BSOG can be the difference that ensures a local bus service is viable, and this can be especially true in rural areas—a concern expressed by several noble Lords. Such commercial services, which operate with no contractual relationship with local authorities, often run across local government boundaries. So decisions taken by one local authority, if BSOG funding was devolved to it, could very easily have a significant adverse impact on services in another area. Devolving BSOG to all authorities as a matter of course could therefore have significant implications. I should explain that we are already reviewing the BSOG system with the aim of ensuring that funding is targeted where it is most needed. I envisage that we will launch a consultation later this year on how the system could be reformed.
The noble Baroness made a couple of points about BSOG being a poor incentive for fuel efficiency. A number of existing top-ups to BSOG incentivise particular improvements, including environmental improvements. I agree that a fuel-based system sends unhelpful signals. That is an issue we will be looking at in our review and the consultation to which I referred.
I hope this reassures the noble Baroness that we are thinking about the BSOG system with the aim of ensuring that we get the best out of the funding available. However, I would not want to pre-empt that exercise by setting out changes on the face of the Bill. However, I agree that resources can be used more effectively where services are planned together, and where specialist and community operators are involved. This is something we are exploring through our total transport pilots as we want to ensure we make the funding available go as far as possible.
I reassure the noble Baroness that we will continue to look further at the extent to which this policy can be pursued and championed, and whether it is something that can be considered further in the Bill. Given that reassurance and explanation, I hope that she is minded to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Randerson
I thank the Minister for his comments. I say to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, that I acknowledge that the bus service operators grant would be at risk in the light of very tight financial circumstances in local authorities, which is why I suggested that it should be ring-fenced. However, it was not appropriate to include that measure in the amendment because it related to local government funding rather than the issue of transport. I agree with the noble Earl about the danger there but I do not think that is reason not to do it; you have to structure it right.
I welcome and look forward to the consultation this autumn that the Minister referred to, but the bus service operators grant is out of date. It needs to be modernised to reflect modern criteria and priorities, especially environmental issues and the particular needs of rural areas, which suffer badly despite the grant. I welcome the Minister’s words on the total transport pilot. I hope it is successful. On that basis, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I support my noble friend’s Amendment 128 and will speak very briefly to my two amendments. Several of us spoke about this at Second Reading. I agree with my noble friend that the bus sector needs a strategy. After all, rail passengers have a strategy. Rail freight is having one soon, I am told. There is a roads strategy. There are strategies to do with most things in transport, except buses. I really think it is time for it and I will certainly support my noble friend if he puts a nice amendment down as Clause 0.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I am not sure you can have a Clause 0, can you? I bow to the wide expertise around the Committee. You can certainly get “zero” fizzy drinks or whatever but let us not open up that debate. I am grateful for the courteous manner in which the amendments were introduced. This group relates to proposals to introduce requirements to produce new national strategies for bus services, and looks to place requirements on local authorities to increase the number of passengers using bus services.
I have said before—indeed, it is a sentiment shared across the Committee—that we want to see more people using buses. Perhaps the recent influx into the Chamber is reflective of that sentiment among noble Lords. Of course, I agree with the intention behind Amendment 129 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. Buses help people get around and should be an integral part of any public transport system. Public transport works best where it is considered holistically, with bus services integrated with cycling infrastructure, trains and trams, or in the form of park and ride facilities. I agree that authorities considering any of the new tools in the Bill should be looking to improve their local bus services and to encourage more people to use public transport.
However, I am concerned that this amendment may bring unintended consequences; for example, a local authority may introduce a new tram system and may look to increase the overall number of journeys made using public transport but the proportion of journeys made by bus may decrease. It may be more sensible, therefore, to encourage authorities to address the issue of increasing the number of public transport journeys rather than just journeys made using bus services. I trust that this gives the noble Lord sufficient reassurance of the seriousness with which I intend to consider the aims of Amendment 129, and hope he will agree not to move it.
Amendments 128 and 130 would require the Secretary of State to develop and issue a national bus strategy and a bus services investment strategy for England. As I have said in previous Committee debates, devolution is an important theme, which has informed the development of the Bill. The Bill is all about providing authorities with new tools to enable them to improve their local services in the way that best suits their area. It is not about imposing particular models.
Central government has a valuable role to play in setting the wider agenda through policy initiatives such as the low-emission bus scheme and our total transport pilots, which I mentioned in the previous group of amendments, but I do not think that centrally determined strategies for local bus services would help authorities address particular issues relevant to them and their area. As such, it does not seem sensible for central government to set national strategies when it is local authorities and bus operators working together that will be designing services and setting standards locally.
Additionally, I have previously explained that my department helps support local bus services outside London by paying some £250 million per year of the BSOG. As I said in the previous group of amendments, we are already reviewing the BSOG system, with the aim of ensuring that funding is targeted where it is most needed. It is through that work that we should establish and set out central government’s priorities and objectives for the funding provided. I trust this gives the noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord Berkeley, sufficient reassurance to withdraw and not move their amendments.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I am a bit disappointed by the Minister’s response. Yes, the Bill is about providing new options for local authorities—apart from the one that Clause 21 closes off—and allowing devolution of decisions to meet local circumstances. But local authorities and operators need to operate within a framework. The Bill gives bits of that framework but we need a clear understanding of where buses fit within the overall transport system, as the Minister is implying. Therefore, the interface between buses and other forms of public transport is very important and buses need to be seen as part of that.
It is difficult for a local authority looking at changing the way in which it deals with operators and provides services to do so without some understanding of what the overall intention of the Government is going to be. The point about funding is crucial to this. Although I broadly agreed with the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, earlier about the complete nonsense of funding bus services through BSOG, I think we should go wider than that and look at the totality of support we give to buses and place that within an overall strategy. The Minister seems to be putting it the other way round, saying that he will be looking at the funding situation, but the funding situation needs to reflect the strategy rather than the other way round. Local authorities need to operate within that strategy and with the support that the funding would give for their decisions.
I am a bit disappointed. I suspect that my noble friend and I will have a bit of a conflab between now and Report to see how we pursue this further. I think we will pursue it further but for the moment, I withdraw the amendment.