Bus Services Bill [HL]

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I support most of the speeches made in support of this amendment. I am not sure that I agree with my noble friend Lord Snape about too many announcements. It is better to have too many than too few. Coincidentally, today I got news from the Oxford Mail that Oxfordshire County Council is stopping all subsidies to buses. It made the decision this afternoon. The noble Lord, Lord Low, spoke about the Oxford Bus Company, which is very good, but 117 routes will be cancelled, mainly to small towns and villages. If we think about the effect on people who cannot see or who have reduced mobility, they cannot drive. The article does not say how many people will be affected by it, but it is obviously going to have a serious effect on people’s lives in just one county. Of course, it is blaming government cuts, rightly or wrongly, and we can debate that. But if the council had waited a year or two until some of this legislation had gone through, the Minister might say that it could easily keep those services because they will be so much better and operators will not need a subsidy anymore because there will be so many more people, presumably under the age of 16, paying for their fares. It is a serious warning. Just one county, which is probably not the poorest county in the country, has said, “Damn the buses. We don’t really care. They’re old, infirm, poor and probably don’t vote Tory. We’ll dump them”. It is a very sad coincidence that it has happened today.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the amendment tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Campbell and Lady Brinton. I shall speak also to Amendments 122 and 126 in my name. I am very grateful for the support of noble Lords who have spoken on them.

These amendments build on the requirements in the Equality Act 2010 for businesses to make reasonable adjustments to ensure that people with disabilities can access goods and services. Action on these issues is vital as the Department for Work and Pensions survey shows that 37% of disabled respondents found transport accessibility a significant barrier to work. We clearly have a long way to go to create a service to which all potential users have access.

Amendment 122 is, I hope, straightforward. It builds on the good practice that exists among enlightened bus operators around the country. It requires all bus operators to provide compulsory, approved equality and disability awareness training by 1 April 2019. It makes the important point that disability is not always obvious and can include mental and other hidden disabilities. We believe that all bus drivers need the skills to identify these potential disabilities, understand the legal framework that applies and have the confidence to intervene effectively when problems arise. I take the point made by my noble friend Lord Judd about the need for public awareness training, but it has to be underpinned by clear legislation and training. In my experience, the public are much more aware of and sympathetic to these issues than we give them credit for. Quite often it is members of the public who come to the rescue of people who are trying to get on to transport; they want to help but do not feel they are getting the support they need to intervene.

We contend that it is not good enough to provide this training on a voluntary or ad hoc basis. With all equality training, the experience is that those who acknowledge that they need the training the most do not really need it: it is those who have to be forced to go on the training who need it the most. It has to be a universal and regular provision.

I ask the Minister for clarification on the Brexit implications of the proposals. As I understand it, Britain currently has a five-year exemption from the EU directive requiring bus drivers and terminal staff to undergo disability awareness training. The exemption runs out in 2018, and we would have expected the requirement to have been put in UK law by then. Will the Minister clarify the status of that obligation now? Is the department on course to implement it, or is this something that can now be achieved more quickly, perhaps through the vehicle of the Bill by adopting our amendment or something similar?

Our Amendment 126 addresses the need for all buses to have audio-visual communication systems to advise passengers of the next stop, any delays and any diversions from the published timetable. The amendment has the support of over 30 charities and bus providers. It would make a vital difference to the lives of almost 2 million people with sight loss, as well as many elderly people who rely on public transport for their independence. As the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, currently only 19% of buses are fitted with AV. Those of us who travel regularly by bus in London realise how liberating and reassuring the service can be, and indeed it frees the driver to concentrate on the roads. I say to my noble friend Lord Snape that I travel on London buses a lot and I have never been irritated by the voice of the AV system; I always find it soothing and reassuring.

It is not like that in the rest of the country, though; a recent Guide Dogs report showed that seven in 10 passengers with sight loss have missed a stop because the driver has forgotten to tell them where to get off. Understandably, this is both distressing and potentially dangerous. AV provision already applies to all new trains. It makes sense to replicate that provision for buses so that we can have a properly integrated public transport system with equal rights and facilities across the piece.

As we have heard, some bus operators have argued that the cost could be prohibitive, but we do not accept that. The latest estimates are that it could be installed for around £2,000 per bus. At the noble Lord, Lord Low, said, a recent study in Oxford showed that if the messenger system was also allowed to include adverts, it could pay for itself in two years. When we met the Minister, Andrew Jones, at the start of the process, he seemed sympathetic to the arguments that have been put on this issue. I understand that he has since said he accepts that the costs have come down, and is therefore reflecting on the next steps. I am also grateful to the Minister here for our earlier meeting on the issues that are covered in the amendments, and I know that more discussions are being planned. I hope the Minister will be able to give us some good news today, and will feel able to confirm that he is prepared to support the amendments.

[Lord Judd]

I would like to pick up something that my noble friend has said. I hope that in her concern to bring home—and I applaud this—just how concerned and helpful so many people are about the plight of the disabled, we do not play down the importance of public education. I travel on London buses a good deal as well, and it is sometimes extremely exasperating to see able-bodied people sitting firmly and almost defiantly in the seats that are supposed to be available, and not giving way. Therefore it is important that there is a culture of support within the bus. I do not advocate a sort of indoctrination programme but suggest that if we have an effective public awareness programme with the maximum possible amount of helpful information about what is expected of people on the bus itself, that will support the majority of people, who are concerned and want to help. As so often in life, a small number of people cause the problems, so you want an atmosphere in which those who are concerned about this are actively supportive of the bus driver.

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[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I will come to that point in a moment and I thank the noble Baroness for her intervention. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, who raised the importance of helping drivers to understand the potential needs of people with a range of impairments and to respond to them directly and positively. The Department for Transport is currently working with Mott MacDonald, representatives of disabled people and the bus industry to review examples of disability awareness training from across the transport sector. Our intention is to publish best-practice guidance well ahead of the introduction of the mandatory requirement. I hope that, by working with the industry to embed this framework, we will help to improve bus drivers’ understanding of their role and that this, in turn, will enable disabled people to travel by bus with greater confidence.

I turn to Amendment 126. For many of us, missing our stop is an inconvenience—by golly, I think we have all been there, and sometimes it is our own fault—but for many visually impaired people the risk of alighting at the wrong location and of being stranded and unable to get back is enough to prevent them travelling at all. Noble Lords will know that the charity Guide Dogs has already campaigned hard on this matter, and it is one on which noble Lords have expressed clear views. The Bill already enables enhanced partnership schemes to specify requirements about providing information to passengers by placing electronic equipment within vehicles. Franchising authorities may choose to require the provision of accessible information in their local service contracts.

The noble Baroness’s amendment goes a step further and proposes amending the Public Service Vehicles Accessibility Regulations—the PSVAR—to require information to be provided that is accessible to blind and partially sighted people. I am grateful to her for proposing such a pragmatic solution, particularly in specifying the information that should be provided, not the means of delivering it. I assure noble Lords that I therefore intend to consider the noble Baroness’s amendment and, in doing so, I will reflect on a number of potential concerns around the proposal as it is currently drafted. For example, within the current drafting, it is not entirely clear whether the PSVAR is the right vehicle to use to introduce any such requirements, given that present provisions in those regulations relate to the physical presence of equipment on buses rather than the provision of service or the level of information.

There is also a question of timing. The PSVAR were originally made in 2000 and operators have had over a decade to prepare for the requirements becoming mandatory, including planning to deal with the resulting costs. I am sure that noble Lords will agree that, in making vehicles more accessible to disabled passengers, we would not wish to put at risk the services that many rely on. Yet I fear that smaller operators may struggle to comply with such new requirements and that the provision of some services may become untenable. This is an issue that I have discussed with the noble Baroness outside the Chamber as well. Given this, I hope that noble Lords will understand why I cannot accept the amendment as it is currently presented. However, I understand the very real concerns expressed at Second Reading, which the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, seeks to address, and I therefore intend to give it further consideration.

Issues have been raised about consultation and working with the industry—and working with those who know best. Noble Lords will know that the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee—DPTAC—has a statutory role in advising the Government on the transport needs of disabled people. Last month, its current chairman, Keith Richards, addressed the DfT board, where I was present. I know that the committee sees the improvement of on-board information as an important priority. I remember sitting at that board meeting and listening to the presentation. I immediately put forward to both my team and that of the Minister responsible for buses, Andrew Jones, that we need to consider their engagement and involvement. As I said during that very meeting, the Bus Services Bill is an opportunity to ensure that we can address the concerns. I intend to consider further the amendments of both the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell. In doing so, I assure noble Lords that the DPTAC will be involved fully. This Bill provides an important opportunity—as I have said throughout the passage of the Bill thus far—to ensure that the rights of disabled people are at the heart of the planning and operation of bus services. It is vital that any additional provisions address these important issues in the round.

There was an additional question by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, about Oxfordshire bus cuts. It is certainly our understanding that the situation in Oxford is not perhaps as stark as he suggested. My understanding is that the council has been working with local bus operators to minimise the impact of the changes, with a relatively large number of services being taken up commercially and new types of community transport also being put in place. I am sure that this is something that we can look at specifically outside the Chamber, if there are other details that the noble Lord wishes to provide.

I hope that I have underlined that the Government are serious about this issue. I welcome the engagement that we have had both within and outside this Chamber, which will continue—I can say that with a degree more certainty today than perhaps I could a week or so ago, certainly as far as I am concerned—although we should never count on these things.

On a more serious note, it is important that we continue to work to see how we can improve the Bill and address this important issue. I look forward to further discussions on this matter and trust that, with the reassurance that I have given to noble Lords at this juncture of the seriousness with which the Government intend to consider the amendments before us and proceed with these proposals, the noble Baroness will be minded to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I am grateful for the response from the Minister and I am sure we would all appreciate the chance for further discussion. I am certainly not one to say that we have got the wording exactly right in our amendments. However, I want to clarify something about the disability awareness training that the Minister responded to. To paraphrase him, he said: “Don’t worry because it’s a mandatory requirement, or will be in 2018, arising from the EU legislation”. He then went on to say, “We are already reviewing our EU obligations”. That seems to be a contradiction. Will it happen? Is it mandatory, or will it be in the melting pot of a Brexit review that may do away with it as unnecessary red tape in some sort of bonfire?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

This is important, so I will put my words into a letter for all noble Lords’ consideration. However, I reassure noble Lords and the noble Baroness in particular that we were mandated and signed up to the EU provision. Certainly, the intent behind the Government’s consideration of this is that whatever provisions were within that regulation are reflected in the obligations that the Government proceed with. I cannot present the noble Baroness with the exact chapter and verse about how that may be mandated, but because of the importance of the issue, I will write to her in that respect.

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Moved by

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

121: Clause 14, page 66, line 5, at end insert—
“(5) After section 6I (inserted by subsection (4)) insert—“6J Community bus routes(1) Traffic Commissioners must keep a list of bus routes in their area which are of community value.(2) For the purpose of this section, a bus route of community value is one that has been designated by the traffic commissioner as furthering the social well-being or social interests of the local community.(3) Bus routes may only be designated by a traffic commissioner as being of community value in response to a community nomination.(4) A community nomination must be made by a community group which is based in, or has a strong connection with, an area through which the bus route passes, and on which community the bus route has a direct social impact.(5) A community group may be a local or parish council, a voluntary or community body with a local connection, a bus user group, a group formed for the specific purpose of maintaining the bus route, a church or other religious group, or a parent teacher group associated with a particular school or schools.(6) The traffic commissioner must consider the community nomination, and if—(a) the nomination is successful, the commissioner must notify the relevant parties of this decision in writing; or(b) the nomination is unsuccessful, the commissioner must notify the relevant parties of this decision in writing and give reasons why the decision was made.(7) A six month moratorium must be placed on the closure of any bus route which is designated as being of community value, in order for the community to—(a) work with relevant authorities to find an alternative operator;(b) set up a community transport group in order to run the service; or(c) partner with an existing not-for-profit operator to run the route.(8) The community may apply to the Secretary of State for financial assistance, training or advice during the moratorium in order to achieve any of the aims set out in subsection (7).””

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, this amendment builds on the concept of a community asset, as identified in the Localism Act 2011. Some bus routes, particularly in isolated rural areas, are simply a lifeline for the local community. At the moment these communities feel impotent to defend or potentially take over these routes, particularly where they are provided by a private operator whose only concern is the route’s profitability.

At the moment, other community provisions such as pubs and shops can be designated an asset of community value. Indeed, in some areas bus stops have been similarly designated. Our amendment takes that concept one step further, building on the process set out in the Localism Act. It would allow for a community grouping to apply to the traffic commissioner stating why a bus route should be listed as having specific community value. They would have to make the case for how it furthered the social well-being or social interests of the local community and, if successful, this would give the community some protection from the service being cut or closed without notice.

At a minimum, this would give the community six months’ notice of closure. More importantly, it would allow space for alternative owners or providers to emerge. That could include a community-run provision or not-for-profit partnership. It would also provide space for additional funding to be sought from government or elsewhere, and might encourage some imaginative thinking about the kind of service that would really be valued by the community in future.

We believe that a new right for communities based on this principle would build on the essence of the Localism Act. It is a natural extension of that policy and would provide considerable reassurance to our most isolated rural communities. I hope noble Lords and the Minister see the sense in what we are proposing, and I look forward to support for this amendment.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 121 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, to which I have added my name. I must apologise for not being able to take part in previous Committee days on this important Bill; the scheduling of children and social work in Grand Committee at the same time as the buses Bill was in Committee in the main Chamber meant that I was unable to be in two places at the same time. I also declare my interest as a vice-president of the LGA and a councillor on South Somerset District Council.

I am concerned, as are other Members of the House, about the declining bus service in rural areas and market towns. When I was a young mother I caught the bus on a Friday from the bottom of the road and went into town with my toddler and pushchair to do my shopping, run some errands and come back again. A Friday suited me, but I could have done that journey four times in the morning and three times in the afternoon, on every day of the week, including Saturdays, and at limited times on Sundays. Now that service is vastly reduced to twice every weekday, once on Saturday and nothing at all on Sunday. The service also ran once each way in the evening so that young people could get to youth activities or go to the cinema.

I will briefly comment on the plight of many young people in rural Britain. Young people should be able to access training, go to FE colleges and engage in apprenticeships. They should be able to socialise, as it is part of their development to hang out with their friends. As they move from the security of the home to taking more and more decisions for themselves, the ability to have free movement within their communities is vital to their gaining independence. They are mostly fit and can walk, but will their parents or guardians be happy for them to hike miles each way in the winter in order to go to the cinema? No buses run after 6 pm, after all.

Currently in Devon, the county council is forcing young people to prove that they need help with transport. This means that young people will be penalised, and it is mainly rural families who will be hit by this new policy. The Government require young people to stay in education or training until they are 18 but will not give any more money towards transport costs. While colleges have an allocation to help with education costs for poorer families, FE colleges are worried that the demand will be greater than the funds available and a whole new set of red tape will be needed for young people who need help getting to college.

The village I lived in was typical of hundreds of villages around the country. The GP surgery is in the next village, but will the bus times fit with the timings of appointments or will people who are already feeling unwell have to hang around waiting as the bus comes only once a day—or, worse, simply be unable to get there at all when there is an appointment?

The view of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on County Matters is:

“Buses are a lifeline to rural communities—efficient public transport is of particular importance in county areas where large, sparse and rural geographies mean that there is an increased risk of isolation. Local bus services are a lifeline for many residents and we must ensure we find ways of making services sustainable for the future. A well designed system can support health and social care—keeping people connected to their communities and providing consistent access to public services can reduce the human and monetary costs of escalating need. This is particularly important in counties which represent the largest older populations, and face particular pressures in health and care services. The bus system is crucial to county economies—half of all commutes outside of London are by bus, and businesses say that well designed services in rural areas are crucial to supporting local economies. This is of particular importance given the substantial number of small businesses in counties”.

I fully support the amendment. In my area I have supported the community right to bid, which has safeguarded many assets that the community holds dear: the local pub, village shops and post offices, and many other facilities. Local communities are capable of innovative and far-reaching plans for their assets, which will now provide facilities that have gradually been eroded over time. Everyone valued them but felt powerless to prevent their demise. Communities run community libraries in pubs, plus shops, cafes and drop-in centres, as well as serving beer. They run lunch clubs for the elderly and isolated, and there is often quite a queue forming in order to ensure that they get a seat next to their friends so they can chat happily while enjoying a cooked meal.

Bus services are also part of community assets. Those in a hurry often bemoan the fact that some rural services meander around villages, picking up people on the way. However, this “meandering around” is vital to ensuring that those on low incomes, those who are frail and can no longer walk long or even short distances, and those who have given up driving their cars, are not left lonely and isolated—prisoners in their own homes. Often those on the bus will notice that a resident who usually joins them is not there. They raise their concern and alert neighbours to this fact, ensuring that a visit is made and their welfare taken care of.

Amendment 121 is clear and speaks for itself; the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, eloquently laid out the case for it. As a country we have come to believe that profit is a good thing and must come before all other considerations. But profit must not be allowed to thwart community enterprise. Communities deserve better and all possible efforts must be made to ensure that operators are found to run bus services that do not run at a tremendous profit or are in danger of being axed. If this cannot be done, communities should be given the opportunity to see if they can find a solution. Nine times out of 10 they will manage it. We are a very innovative nation. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

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[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response and those noble Lords who have supported my amendment. I have to say at the outset that it was of course a probing amendment. I am not for one second saying that we have worked through the precise wording; we were simply trying to get the concept of a different form of community transport on the agenda.

As I said in my introduction, this is not so unusual. Under the Localism Act, similar provisions are already in place for pubs, shops, and other community assets. You could quite easily see how that read-across would work—on the same basis that the pubs and shops had previously been commercial outfits but were no longer proving to be profitable, so the community ought to have some say before the services finally close. I was grateful to my noble friend Lord Berkeley for making it clear that it is not a binary choice; it is not commercial or nothing. There are already other services that operate on a non-profit-making basis and we need to learn the lessons from those to see whether those principles can be extended.

It was never our intention that this should be a blanket provision, which is why we put in a number of steps that had to take place via the traffic commissioner and so on. I am grateful for the contributions that noble Lords have made. I would be interested in having further discussions with the Minister about, if not our model, another model to give isolated, rural communities, in particular, some sort of lifeline in terms of transport provision. But with that kind offer from the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 121 withdrawn.