Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Seventeenth sitting)

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 4th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

Division 23

Ayes: 7

Noes: 13

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I beg to move amendment 414, in clause 4, page 2, line 25, at end insert—

“(3A) If a registered medical practitioner conducts such a preliminary discussion with a person, the practitioner must first ensure the provision of adjustments for language and literacy barriers, including the use of interpreters.”

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 413, in clause 4, page 2, line 31, at end insert—

“(4A) In Wales, a medical practitioner conducting a preliminary discussion under subsection (4) must also discuss with the person their preferred language of Welsh or English.”

Amendment 415, in clause 9, page 6, line 20, at end insert—

“(2A) When making an assessment under subsection (2), the assessing doctor must first ensure the provision of adjustments for language and literacy barriers, including the use of interpreters.”

Amendment 416, in clause 30, page 18, line 25, leave out paragraph (c)

This amendment is linked to Amendment 417.

Amendment 417, in clause 30, page 18, line 32, at end insert—

“(1A) The Secretary of State must, within six months of the passing of this Act, issue one or more codes of practice in connection with the arrangements for ensuring effective communication in connection with the provision of assistance to persons in accordance with this Act, including the use of interpreters.”

This amendment is linked to Amendment 416.

--- Later in debate ---

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I rise to speak to amendment 413, which would require a medical practitioner in Wales who conducts a preliminary discussion under subsection (4) to discuss with the person their preferred language of Welsh or English. Amendments 414, 415, 416 and 417, tabled by the hon. Member for Ipswich, relate to adjustments for language and literacy barriers. I will speak to those amendments, but it is not my intention to divide the Committee on them. Although I am supportive of the drive behind the amendments from the hon. Member for Ipswich, they refer to a situation very different from that of Welsh and English, because the use of Welsh and English has particular statutory implications.

This is the first time I have risen to speak about how we need to tease out the Bill’s implications in the context of reserved and devolved powers, where justice and criminal law are reserved, while health and social care are devolved. Amendment 413 concerns the need, in my belief, to place in the Bill the requirement to determine whether a person wishes to use either Welsh or English in their initial discussions with registered medical practitioners. I firmly believe that this needs to be written into the legislation. Later amendments I have tabled to clauses 5 and 8, and new clause 18 and new schedule 2, also relate to the use of Welsh.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

I fully support the amendments, but they say that the practitioner conducting the preliminary discussion should use an interpreter. Should the interpreter not also be available for all the interactions that follow on from the preliminary discussion?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

While I agree with the hon. Member in principle, I am operating within the law in terms of Welsh and English, because there are legal considerations with those two languages in particular.

In the matter we are discussing, the ability for the person to communicate as directly as possible is of the greatest importance. I wonder whether the Minister will respond by saying that the codes of practice in clause 30 will be sufficient, but I emphasise that I took advice from the Welsh Language Commissioner’s office, and it was the Welsh Language Commissioner’s officer who advised that I table the amendments. We are operating in unique circumstances with this being a private Member’s Bill, and we need to have clarity on what is required in relation to how the legislation operates between England and Wales.

[Sarah Green (Chesham and Amersham) (LD)]

The hon. Lady will know that the Welsh Language Act 1993 put the Welsh language on an equal footing with the English language in Wales. Does she agree that it would be helpful to have clarity on whether the provisions in that Act apply to the Bill?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

That is exactly what I am seeking to do, and I am seeking to do it as co-operatively and collegiately as possible. But we need to have clarity on this, and our discussions need to be thorough and exact in order to be accurate.

When it comes to the individual’s right to use Welsh in their daily lives, two pieces of legislation are relevant to the Bill: the Welsh Language Act 1993, which predates devolution, and the Senedd’s Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011. The Welsh Language Act remains applicable for reserved matters, such as justice, and the Ministry of Justice operates a Welsh language scheme that enables people to use Welsh in courts, tribunals and other areas of justice. The Welsh Language Measure established the office of the Welsh Language Commissioner, who has the power to investigate complaints from Welsh speakers who assert that their freedom to use Welsh has been interfered with; created a Welsh language tribunal to hear appeals against the commissioner’s decisions; and enabled the development standards, which are particularly significant here.

The Welsh Language Measure states that individuals in Wales should be able to conduct their lives through the medium of Welsh if that is what they choose to do. Under the Measure, the NHS in Wales has a statutory duty to deliver services to the public in both Welsh and English. The Welsh language standards are a set of statutory requirements that set out responsibilities to provide services, and they apply to health boards in Wales, as well as to NHS primary care services that are contracted by the health boards. The standards do not apply to independent providers, which since 2019 must follow six Welsh language duties, one of which is to establish and record the language preference of patients. That is where I have got the terminology used in amendment 413.

That is a summary of the relevant considerations but, before I close, it is important to say why this matters to Welsh speakers. I spoke recently to medical practitioners in Wales who wanted me to emphasise their concerns at the lack of specific mention of language rights. I also spoke to the Welsh Language Commissioner’s officers, who advised me on the necessity of the amendments. There is a critique against providing Welsh language services that shrugs its shoulders and says, “Why bother? They all speak English anyway.” That is to ignore how integral language use is to the individual.

We are drafting a Bill to do two things in a very delicate balance: to respect the autonomy of the individual and to safeguard people against abuse in any form. For many Welsh speakers, Welsh is the language of their emotions. It is the language in which they express themselves most fluently, and the first language of their feelings. It matters to this Bill. English is the language of authority, and many Welsh speakers are anxious not to challenge the authority of high-status people such as doctors. They do that out of ingrained politeness, and out of fear of not being able to access services if they put any barriers in the way. That is the way that language gets used. Welsh speakers do not use Welsh in the way that monolingual English speakers use English; monolingual English speakers use English because it is the only language they have. For anyone who is bilingual or multilingual, the use of language is very complicated and sophisticated, and we need to be alert to it in all its respects.

I return to the nature of the relationship between doctors and their patients. Doctors have high status, and a patient approaches a doctor seeking services, advice and context. That is not a power dynamic that we should allow to go unchecked, so I urge the Committee to consider the amendment. I do not intend to press it to a vote, but I want a response from the Ministers. Before Report, I want absolute clarity on its legal necessity or otherwise. I feel instinctively—especially because the Welsh Language Commissioner’s office has told me this—that it should be in the Bill. I would also like a response from Ministers on amendment 414, tabled by the hon. Member for Ipswich.

[Rebecca Paul (Reigate) (Con)]

I rise to speak briefly to amendments 413 and 414, which are very thoughtful and well-considered amendments. I thank the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd for setting out powerfully and persuasively the importance of the subject. I support the amendments, but in reality we probably need to go further by specifying exactly who would be interpreting and making sure that it is regulated reliably. We do not want just anyone coming in off the street and doing that. That would not be appropriate, so we need to think about whether we need to go further. However, the amendments are a great starting point and would move us closer to where we need to be.

There is much subtlety in this debate. We talked a little in the first week of this Committee about the importance of language and the words that are used. We always need to be cognisant that when we are imparting information to people, particularly in a healthcare context, it is vital that we use language that people understand so that the ramifications of what is being discussed are clear. That is where these amendments become really important, because for those for whom English is not their first language, some of the subtlety and nuance around what a term means could be lost. Interpreters could be an important part of adding the clarity required to ensure that everyone going through the process understands exactly what it involves.

A 2024 Nuffield Council on Bioethics survey found that 39% of people think that assisted dying means withdrawing life support, 19% think that it means providing people who are dying with drugs that relieve symptoms of pain or suffering, and 13% think that it means providing hospice care. That echoes our debate a couple of weeks ago about how assisted dying can be interpreted in quite a few different ways. It is really important that we are clear in the language we use and what we mean by it.

We also find that among ethnic minorities there is sometimes a greater misunderstanding about palliative care. A 2024 King’s College London survey found that 6% of people believe that it is accurate that palliative care involves giving people medicines in order to shorten their life, but 18% of ethnic minority groups think that. We need to be cognisant of that. While 18% of people trust healthcare providers “not very much” or “not at all” to provide high-quality care towards the end of life, that figure increases to 30% for ethnic minority groups. While 6% of people say they have not heard of palliative care, that increases to 22% of people in ethnic minority groups.

It is important to recognise that the text of the amendment is much less stringent than that of section 7 of South Australia’s Voluntary Assisted Dying Act 2021, which strictly regulates interpreters. That goes back to my initial point. Under the South Australian law, they must be

“accredited by a prescribed body”.

They cannot be a family member, cannot stand to benefit from the will and cannot be involved in the patient’s healthcare. It is really important to ensure that a recognised professional is involved in this most important of processes and information sharing.

I support the amendments, although I think they need to go a little further. I look forward to hearing what other hon. Members have to say.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Kinnock]

This group of amendments focuses on language and literacy barriers, including discussion of the use of interpreters and translations. If amendment 414 is agreed to, a registered medical practitioner who conducts a preliminary discussion with a person will first have to ensure the provision of adjustments for language and literacy barriers, including the use of interpreters. It may be helpful to note that, in all areas of practice, registered medical practitioners must uphold the standards in the GMC’s “Good medical practice”, which includes the provision of adjustments for language and literacy barriers.

The purpose of amendment 413 is to require medical practitioners in Wales who are conducting the initial discussion outlined in clause 4 to

“discuss with the person their preferred language of Welsh or English.”

It may be helpful to note that under the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011, the NHS in Wales has a statutory duty to deliver its services to the public in both Welsh and English. The Measure, which gives the Welsh language official status in Wales, states that

“persons in Wales should be able to live their lives through the medium of the Welsh language if they choose to do so.”

The Welsh Government’s active offer for health is intended to support all staff across NHS Wales to provide a service in Welsh for patients, without their having to ask for it.

Technically, I would note that the amendment does not require the medical practitioner to conduct the initial discussion in the person’s preferred language, or to refer the person to another medical practitioner who can conduct it in the person’s preferred language, if they are unable to do so themselves. I have discussed that point with the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd and am more than happy to have a further discussion about how her amendment might work. The concern that I simply flagged was that we have the 2011 Measure and, as with so many of these things, there is a law of unintended consequences. An amendment that may be designed with the best possible intentions could end up disrupting the system and causing confusion or uncertainty, which I am sure she would not want. As with all these things, that is the challenge.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

We have raised already in the Committee the need for an impact assessment. I have also raised with the Minister the need for an impact assessment in Wales. The fact that we are having this conversation shows that there is an element of uncertainty about exactly whether it is necessary for this provision to be included in the Bill. I am concerned that it could be in a code of practice; I share the concern expressed by the hon. Member for Bradford West that we do not know how such codes of practice will operate, or whether we will have any say over how they operate. However, as the Minister has come to this in a spirit of co-operation, I hope that we will find some clarity. If it appears that it is better for Welsh language speakers that such a provision be set out in the Bill, I hope that he will agree in that respect.

[Stephen Kinnock]

I am happy to have that discussion, to better understand how it might all work in practice.

If amendment 415 is agreed to, it will mean that an assessing doctor making an assessment under subsection (2) must first ensure the provision of adjustments for language and literacy barriers, including the use of interpreters. As with amendment 414, the Committee may want to note the existing standards that all medical practitioners must uphold, which include requirements for the provision of adjustments for language and literacy barriers.

Amendments 416 and 417 would amend clause 30, which states that the Secretary of State may issue codes of practice on a number of matters, including on arrangements for ensuring effective communication and the use of interpreters. The amendments would impose a duty on the Secretary of State to issue one or more codes of practice in connection with arrangements for ensuring effective communication, including the use of interpreters, and to do so within six months of the passing of the Act. The requirement to issue any such code of practice within six months may prove unworkable. Under clause 30, it would be necessary to consult on the code of practice, make regulations to allow for the code of practice to come into force, have the regulations approved by both Houses of Parliament and then issue the code of practice, all within a six-month period after the passing of the Act.

As I have said, the Government will continue to remain neutral on whether or how the law in this area should change. As I have made clear, that is a matter for the Committee and for Parliament as a whole. However, I hope that these observations are helpful to members of the Committee in considering the Bill and the amendments tabled to it.

[Kim Leadbeater]

On amendment 413, from the right hon. Member from Plaid Cymru—with apologies, I will not embarrass myself by trying to pronounce the wonderful name of her constituency—I am very sensitive to issues around devolution. We have had many conversations about it, which I am very happy to continue. The Minister has confirmed, as I understand it, the issue around the Welsh language, in that it would be covered by the Welsh language legislation, which states that individuals in Wales

“should be able to live their lives through the medium of the Welsh language if they choose to do so.”

I am very supportive of that. I am also happy to continue those conversations, where necessary, with the Minister.

I turn to amendments 414 and 415. I think several Members of the Committee have had the same message from my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich, who was clearly struggling to get here on time. I, too, would be happy to move them in his name. They seem very sensible amendments, and I am happy to support them. Along with the GMC’s “Good medical practice”, which sets out the principles, values and standards of professional behaviour expected of doctors, it is a belt-and-braces approach to an issue that is very important, for reasons that several hon. Members have set out.

I cannot support amendments 416 and 417, however, because the timeframe that they would impose would not fit with the rest of the Bill. In reference to the two-year implementation period, that would just not be workable or possible.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I will not press amendment 413, because I anticipate further conversations on these matters.

Amendment 414 agreed to.

Amendment proposed: 285, in clause 4, page 2, line 28, leave out paragraphs (a) to (c) and insert—

“(a) the person’s diagnosis and prognosis, in consultation with a specialist in the relevant illness, disease or medical condition,

(b) any treatment available and the likely effect of it, in consultation with a specialist in the provision of such treatment,

(c) any palliative, hospice or other care, including symptom management and psychological support, in consultation with a specialist in palliative care.”—(Naz Shah.)

This amendment ensures that a specialist carries out the assessment of the patient, the treatment options available and the palliative care options available, since these may not be known to a doctor coordinating an assisted death.

Question put, That the amendment be made.