Tobacco and Vapes Bill (First sitting)

Lisa Cameron Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th April 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

I am an NHS consultant paediatrician, and a member of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health.

[Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Con)]

I am a practising psychologist, and I also chair the all-party parliamentary health group.

[Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

Sir George, do we have to declare our memberships of any groups? I am a member of the all-party parliamentary group for responsible vaping.

[The Chair]

Well, whether it was required or not, you have now done it.

[Dr Cameron]

I am, too.

[The Chair]

We will now hear oral evidence from Michelle Mitchell, the chief executive of Cancer Research UK, Deborah Arnott, the chief executive of Action on Smoking and Health, and Sheila Duffy, the chief executive of ASH Scotland. To begin with, I will call on Michelle Mitchell.

Michelle Mitchell: First, thank you for your openness and transparency, Sir George. It is also important to declare whether anybody giving evidence has associations with the tobacco industry; I have none. The principle of accountability and transparency is also important for the people who are giving evidence.

Smoking is the biggest cause of death, ill health and disability. It is the biggest cause of cancer in the UK. It has a huge impact on preventable deaths, the economy, productivity and of course families and loved ones. Cancer Research UK supports the legislation to create the first ever smoke-free generation and to stop young people developing addictions, risk, ill health and, of course, cancer. We believe that the rights and entitlements of current smokers are reasonably unaffected. We urge you through your considerations in Parliament to pass the legislation, as does the public, 73% of whom support the legislation.

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[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q I want to ask about the information that is given to parents, especially if their children have never smoked but have taken up vaping. We know that a generation of children is becoming addicted to nicotine because products that have been classified as 0% nicotine do actually contain it. One of the parents that I spoke to asked, “Well, how many puffs are there in one vape? If my child has two or three of those in a day, what does that actually mean?” It is about the information on that sort of risk, and how we share that information with parents who are trying to address this issue with their children. Is there anything you want to say about that, and is there any research being done to look at that?

Dr Griffiths: I would observe that there is so much variation between products and how people are consuming them. I think it is quite difficult to give advice in a standard way, and that it is part of it being an emergent product and market. As we have discussed, there is no doubt that, with nicotine being so deeply addictive, it is an incredible worry that a child has a single puff on a vape, given the potency of nicotine and where we know it leads people, having seen that over generations with smoking.

I should perhaps take a moment to emphasise that we also really support the £70 million investment being allocated to public health campaigning and cessation services, as well as enforcement. You are right that we need to be really clear with the messaging of the Bill to encourage support from parents and others around children in particular. We really applaud the decision to put resourcing behind this as well. We know that effective public campaigning can be an incredibly powerful tool. We were really proud to run the “Give Up Before You Clog Up” fatty cigarette campaign way back 20 years ago, and we know even that campaign led to 14,000 smokers seeking to quit. We know public campaigning works, and it was a great thought to allocate that resource as part of this work—it will be needed.

Sarah Sleet: The variation in nicotine levels and the method of delivery, which affects the uptake of the nicotine, is undoubtedly very concerning in vapes. I am a mother of three adult children who all vape, and I am very concerned about how often they are doing that and what impact that is having. We must also remember that, from what we know at the moment, it would appear that smoking is far and away the most damaging activity, compared with vaping. There is a little bit of concern that we overemphasise the harms of vaping to the extent that people say, “Well, I might as well smoke then. I’ll do that instead.” We need to be very careful about how we have this conversation.

[Dr Cameron]

Q I want to follow up on something that both of you alluded to earlier in the evidence you have given. Is there any research beginning to form that suggests that, while vaping can be helpful for cessation, it might also be a gateway to smoking itself for young people?

Dr Griffiths: That is an interesting question, and I can see the clear linkage you have described, but I am not able to provide any evidence. I am very happy to go back and provide that as a follow-up.

Sarah Sleet: I am not aware of any evidence around that either.

Dr Griffiths: It is a great question.

[The Chair]

I call Dr Caroline Johnson, and this will be the final question.

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[Kirsten Oswald]

Q I wonder if you can develop some of the points you have made, which have been very useful. I am hearing anecdotally about issues in schools where the addiction of children to these vapes is itself causing a problem, because the children are unable to sit in the classroom and have to go out to vape, with whatever excuse is made, so that they then feel able to come back to the classroom, such is the level of their addiction to these products. If I may go beyond that slightly, what are your views on the way these things are promoted—for instance, on our particular concern about vape companies advertising on sports strips and in sports stadiums, and the impact on the same young people who are so addicted?

Matthew Shanks: I completely agree. The way in which vapes are marketed—the colours, flavours and so on—and the places where they are marketed suggest to people that they are safe. The fact that they are put forward as a “safe” alternative to cigarettes, the fact that parents use them and the fact that there are lots of colourful vape shops open in high streets: all those aspects promote the idea that vaping is okay.

At the same time, getting into a child’s mindset—we have all been there, as children—we like to break the rules and feel like we are pushing at boundaries. We know that it is not okay, but it is made okay. I would suggest that more children engage in vaping than in cigarette smoking, because they are not sure what the harmful effects are. That is the danger in it. I do think it leads on, because the younger children vape, but by the time they are 16 or 17, vaping might not be cool any more, so they go on to cigarettes or other things.

Anecdotally, we have heard of schools down in the south-west where people are putting cannabis into the vapes, so the addiction grows from that point of view as well. It leads to children coming out of lessons agitated. If I did not have three coffees in the morning, my agitation would be quite high. If children are not getting nicotine, as well as going through all the other things they are going through, they really do present as confrontational to staff, which makes it difficult to deal with them in classrooms and engage them in their learning. At the same time, to repeat a point I made earlier, you have parents at home who are saying, “Well, it’s okay to do.” I absolutely concur about the way it is marketed and so on.

Patrick Roach: To add to that, because those are important points: vape producers and manufacturers, and indeed those supplying vapes, are advertising freely in ways that make their products increasingly attractive to children and young people, with the way vapes are advertised and the marketing descriptors used for them. All the evidence we have, and certainly what our members tell us—our survey was of 4,000 teachers, so this is not anecdotal; it has an impact right across the system— suggests that the way those products are marketed and described deliberately seeks to entice young people to make use of them.

We believe that this is a strong Bill that very clearly sets out the societal expectations in this space, but as with any legislation, there is always scope for loopholes. If there are areas in the Bill where there is potential to further strengthen the legislation, I think the enticing way products are described, before an individual understands what they are getting themselves into, is something that needs to be considered and addressed.

From our point of view, it is about advertising, but it is also about access to these products. With the best will in the world, and no matter how they are advertised, if the products are easily available at the point of sale it makes things incredibly difficult. I remember that when I was bringing up my own children I worried about going to the supermarket with them, because they would be surrounded by candy and sweet products at the checkouts. You could not navigate your way through the checkouts. Thankfully, things have moved on: that has changed, and many parents are benefiting from those changes.

Young people are very much interacting with many of these products at the point of sale. They are in the shops that are in the vicinity of or on the route to and from school. They are being marketed in places that young people will frequent, whether that be a local café, the hairdressers or the barbers. They are in places where young people will be. They are also immediately available. The more we can do to stop the immediacy of marketing of these products and that easy availability, no matter how they are described, the better.

[Dr Cameron]

Q I have been hearing from parents and schools in my constituency that they are very concerned that children are going out at lunchtime and spending their lunch money on vapes, so they are not having anything nutritious during the day. Is there any evidence that indicates that there might be a pattern developing in that respect that will have an impact on children’s physical health and wellbeing?

Matthew Shanks: Absolutely: children will find any which way they can to do what they want to do. At the moment, while this is not illegal, they will gather more people to follow the crowd and go out. In my experience, the majority of children want to do as they are instructed—probably about 85%, anecdotally, over the years—but they will follow the herd. At the moment, there is a greater herd growing because of all the things we have talked about, with the marketing and colour of vapes. I can absolutely see children going out at lunchtime and spending their money on that, instead of on food. There is peer pressure to do that as well—it is taking more people with them. As Patrick said, you can see these products in the barbers, in the shops and so on.

Patrick Roach: To add to that, there are also bullying behaviours that manifest themselves. Whether a pupil is making the choice to go out at lunchtime to acquire vapes or is feeling coerced to do so, there is an issue either way. The availability of those products in the proximity of schools needs to be considered. That is a point that we would make.

Increasingly, schools have introduced systems to seek to ensure that children are being fed at lunch times, for example. We should not lose sight of that, but in some instances these products—particularly disposable vapes —are cheap as chips. I know that that is an issue of concern to the Government, and it is of concern to us and our members.

It is really important that we look at how we can ban the sale of disposable vapes entirely, because frankly no one knows what is in them, and they are incredibly cheap to acquire. Even if your parent can see what you had on Tuesday lunchtime because it comes up on their phone, how will they know if you have spent 10 minutes popping out to the local shop to acquire some vapes, particularly if they are of the disposable variety? More can be done not only to limit appeal, but to reduce the availability and accessibility of those products to young people. The more that can be done on that, the better.

[The Chair]

Four more people want to get in—actually, it has just gone up to five—and we have about 12 or 13 minutes left. It is unlikely that I will be able to get everybody in, but if Members put their questions as briefly as possible and witnesses respond as concisely as possible, I will try.

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[The Chair]

I will attempt one final question from Dr Lisa Cameron. I simply make the point that the briefer the question, the more possibility there is that she will get an answer.

[Dr Cameron]

Q Thank you; I will be very brief. Do you think it is fair to describe older adults as having made a choice, when perhaps it was not an informed choice, given the misinformation and lack of evidence at the time that they made the choice to start smoking?

Paul Farmer: I think a lot of people made a choice without having the information in front of them. I suppose my parting thought to this Committee is that the consequences of failing to intervene in previous generations are now seen by the older people of today. If this legislation is implemented, the first generation of people will not reach 65 until 2074, but I can tell you that that generation of 65-year-olds will look back and recognise the contribution that the Government have made to changing and impacting on their long-term health in the same way that this generation looks back on the contribution of other Governments in other health initiatives.

[The Chair]

I thank the witness for his answers to the questions from Members, which were really helpful. They gave us not only the perspective of those who his organisation represents, but the intergenerational nature of their role in the world. That brings us to the end of this morning’s sitting. The Committee will meet again at 2 pm here in the Boothroyd room to continue taking oral evidence.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Aaron Bell.)

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting)

Lisa Cameron Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th April 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

Q It is always great to see you and your enthusiasm shows through. We are very grateful for what you do in the north-east with Fresh and Balance. Does there need to be some kind of balance—no pun intended—between education and enforcement in order to make this a successful campaign, and to make the Bill as successful as we all want it to be?

Ailsa Rutter: We have a really good track record over the last two decades of collaboration and cross-party working, with fantastic support from civil society, the NHS and local authorities. The previous legislation has gone through really well, overall, because we have worked together to build up public awareness and support. It is really important that we have adequate resourcing for our important professional groups, such as trading standards.

For me, it is about the communication, the vision and the narrative that we can set. Undoubtedly, if we can get this through, it will not just stop a whole new generation starting; we also know that it will trigger many people to think, “You know what? I am going to give it another go. I am going to try to quit.” We know that it can take people many attempts to quit for good. That is why it is really good that this is being backed up by additional investment in the important stop-smoking support systems and in our NHS trusts.

[Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Con)]

Q We heard this morning that some individuals and families had misinformation about vaping. We were given the example that, where the flavour is grapefruit or another fruity flavour, people might think that it is actually beneficial for children to be using vapes. Should we tackle those types of flavours and do more in terms of education, to make sure that families are aware that just because something has a fruity flavour, that does not necessarily mean that it is good for their health?

Ailsa Rutter: I note the aspects of the Bill that deal with flavours. We absolutely think that more should be done on the descriptors. We wholeheartedly agree that some of the description is completely inappropriate. However, flavours play a really important role. For example, in our mental health trust, it is the fruit flavours that have got addicted smokers to stop. I genuinely have not heard that come up in the north-east—parents thinking that it is somehow healthy for a young person if it has a fruit flavour. What is wrong, though, is when it is in a packet called “Unicorn bubbly shake” or whatever, with a cartoon image on it. Those are things that we should look at addressing.

On vaping by young people in the north east, I want to make the point that we need to be careful about the data. Sometimes people say that all young people are vaping, but the evidence does not stack up. All of our local authorities do health behaviour questionnaires and, across the board, around 10% occasionally vape. I am not at all saying that we should be happy with that, but the risk of a public narrative that all young people are vaping is that we inadvertently promote it as a norm. Schools North East—

[The Chair]

Order. I am sorry, but we have hit 2.50 pm. Caroline, I am sorry to you, too. We are not allowed to go over the time limit. Ailsa, thank you so much for your evidence; it has been absolutely first-class. We wish you well with all the important work.

Examination of Witness

Adrian Simpson gave evidence.

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[Mary Glindon]

Q I was just searching for a quote, which I think I cited in a debate last year, about a survey that had been commissioned about buying vapes. Out of the 28 vapes that were bought, 25 were illicit vapes. I presume that those are from places that are not responsible retailers—they clearly are irresponsible if they sell those. Are there a lot of retailers that do not subscribe to your organisation where this sort of thing could be occurring? If that is the case, how can we encourage them to become responsible retailers and join the consortium? What should be done? Do you try to reach out to retailers that you know are perhaps not the best and that you would like to see engage with your organisation to help to prevent this kind of illicit sale?

Adrian Simpson: Exactly. Our membership is predominantly the household-name retailers—the large retailers; the ones that certainly would not be selling illicit vapes. We have comprehensive supply chains, and our members put a lot of effort into making sure that their supply chains are operating with integrity, so that illicit products cannot enter them. I have not seen that report, but my feeling would be that the sellers mentioned in it are highly unlikely to be members of a reputable trade organisation. They might be ones that would not be looking for the same standards that our members would operate to.

[Dr Cameron]

Q Do any of your members worry that they might get into some bother if they think that someone looks a bit older than they are, and they do not ask them for identification? I am just wondering what sort of training would be beneficial, because you mentioned that you were looking to put in place training prior to this going through.

Adrian Simpson: A lot of the training done by our members has been put together with the help of trading standards’ services, so there is a lot in there about the law, but also about what perhaps is termed the soft skills—how to deal with the aggression, and with violence as well. Of course, this is a high-profile issue, and it is one of the top priorities at the British Retail Consortium as well.

We know that, with new rules, new regulations and new opportunities to challenge consumers, there will always be some resistance from consumers. We will certainly make sure that all our colleagues working in our members’ stores are given all the support they need to deal with any potential aggression or any bother, and our members will comply with whatever the law says. They will not let someone who should not buy a product buy it just because they are worried, or something like that. They will follow whatever the in-store procedures are and the training from the work with trading standards.

[Dr Cameron]

Q But it is probably more difficult to tell whether someone is 35, 40 or 45 than whether someone is an older adult, going on a bus, or whether someone is a teenager rather than someone in their mid-20s. I am just wondering how that could work, in a sense, in terms of the training.

Adrian Simpson: I agree—that is difficult. It takes me back to discussions around Challenge 25, which we have mentioned. It started out as Challenge 21, and the age was raised because it was very difficult to tell the difference between a 21-year-old and an 18-year-old. Technology is evolving in this area. There are new things. We know that members are using new forms of technology to help with that. They rely on things like Government-issued ID. There are various ways of challenging someone. It comes down to things like the training and how the consumer is around the till. Are they acting nervous or like they are up to something? It is then down to the retailer to use the training that they have been given to check the ID and use their own in-store procedures, as well to try to operate responsibly.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q To follow on from that dialogue, it strikes me that a degree of social change will be needed, because it will have to become normal for you to go into a shop and provide whatever kind of ID. It seems to me unlikely that that will be a conversation that will centre on whether you look this age or a year older. Has that led you to any conversations with people who deal with things like bus passes or the voter ID that is required? Is the communication of that to the public—a different angle from the communication to the retail staff—something that you are working on?

Adrian Simpson: Yes, we do work closely with trading standards, who are very good at doing the education side. It is not just about educating our members, but educating the public and bringing about a cultural change where it is almost expected that you will be asked for ID. If you have been in any large retailer recently, you have probably seen the badges they wear that say, “It’s our job to ask for your age”, for example. Certainly, among our member businesses, it very much is the culture to go for the Challenge 25. Although these regulations with the rolling age will have challenges, I am sure our members are well placed to overcome them.

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[Bob Blackman]

Thank you.

[Dr Cameron]

Q This question is for John. You stated in the response to the Bill that enforcing the new age restriction will present its own challenges. What challenges do you foresee? Will the sector be penalised if it cannot tell the difference between a 35-year-old and a 40-year-old? How do you manage those intricacies?

John Herriman: I will let Kate answer on this one as well. There was a really good, comprehensive answer earlier from one of the people giving evidence: if this is the right thing to do, the right idea, it is something we will have to get used to doing. I think that is probably the principle that we would apply within the world of trading standards as well. We just have to get used to the new legislation and what it asks us to do, and then make sure that sellers are following that legislation. Probably the problem will be more at the business end rather than at our end, and this is where there is a really important role for business education and the likes of the British Retail Consortium, the Association of Convenience Stores and other organisations.

We must get the balance right: this is about the enforcement activity and the right level of legislation, but we also have to make sure there is an onus of responsibility and accountability on businesses themselves to solve part of the problem. I do not think it is right to put all of the problem on enforcement, for example. Therefore I would definitely be looking towards businesses to make sure that they are embracing this and making sure that they are doing the right business education and training along the way. Have you anything else to say on that, Kate?

Kate Pike: Absolutely. The other point, obviously, is about resources, which John has already highlighted. We are in discussions, but we do need to make it clear that trading standards needs more resources to enable it to deliver the enforcement in this Bill.

[The Chair]

I think we have received that message very loud and very clear.

Kate Pike: Good.

John Herriman: Did I mention that? [Laughter.]

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifth sitting)

Lisa Cameron Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 9th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Con)]

The hon. Lady is making a very informed speech, but I want to pick up on one thing. She said that the sole purpose of the vaping industry is to get people addicted to vaping, but does she acknowledge that many people across the UK, and particularly adults, as we heard in evidence, have reduced their addiction through vaping? They are tapering down the amount of nicotine they are using, as opposed to when they were smoking. We also heard that there were some health benefits from people moving from smoking to vaping.

[Rachael Maskell]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for the point she made. Certainly, I did highlight that transitional benefit of moving from smoking to vaping to, hopefully, stopping altogether. However, we must also highlight that vaping is not without risk, and we need to give that serious consideration. I am just concerned that the Government are slightly light, shall I say, in terms of their concern about vaping, in order to drive down the smoking. I absolutely understand that, because smoking kills, but I just think that we could be on the “too light” side. I know that it is about balance, but I hope that we can reflect on that during the course of the Bill.

I want to draw out one question that I have about clause 9 and giving away vapes. I certainly understand why the measures would be applied to industry, but I want to ask about public health measures that could be deployed. I recognise that the clause is about under-18s, but unfortunately, despite the current legislation, we know that many people under 18 smoke, and we obviously need to ensure that they stop and move into a safer space. The Government have been very much pressing the idea that vaping is a route out of smoking. Does the Public Health Minister see vaping as a means to help people under the age of 18 to stop smoking, or will they have no access to vapes? I would just like some clarity around that. Clearly, there are other smoking-cessation programmes and products available, but it would be useful to know the answer to that question. If vaping is to be used in that way, and clinicians are to be able in future to prescribe or indeed provide vapes for young people to stop smoking—if that was the only tool—we need to understand whether we are to have a blanket ban in the Bill. It would be very useful to understand that.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting)

Lisa Cameron Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 9th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

As I say, I accept the hon. Lady’s point and will reflect on it.

The broader point is that there is obviously a balance here. We want to exclude vapes from children, but we do not want to exclude vapes from adults who want to quit smoking, because that is the real prize that we are seeking to hang on to. The more difficult we make it for adults to access vapes as a quit aid, the more we are discouraging adults who, we have all agreed—violently—we want to stop smoking. That is the killer.

[Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Con)]

The Minister is making an extremely important point: we have to do everything in a proportionate manner. Although we need to protect children, and do not want children—I have children of my own—to take up vaping in childhood or have access to vapes, vaping can be a harm-reduction approach for adults. Putting vapes behind the counter, like tobacco, might go against some of the evidence we heard about the harm of vaping being much less than that of smoking itself. It could perhaps give the wrong impression to the public: that vaping is not a harm-reduction tool, that it is not going to be useful to them, and that it is in the same category as smoking itself.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

My hon. Friend highlights exactly the challenge, which is the balance between helping adults to stop smoking, where turning to vapes can be the most successful tool in the toolkit, and preventing children from ever taking up and becoming addicted to nicotine.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting)

Lisa Cameron Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I share the views expressed here today that we have got to stop the marketing aimed at children in the brutal and cynical way that is happening right now. Hon. Members will appreciate that the limiting of flavours is a tricky thing to achieve. Is it the name of the flavour? Is it the ingredients in the flavour? Is it a combination of the ingredients and the flavours?

[Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Con)]

The Minister is making a considered point. The Committee has received research data from ASH that highlights how complex the issue is. Although 50% of child vapers preferred fruit flavours, 47% of adult vapers also preferred fruit flavours. We therefore have to consult on and take these issues forward in a very considered way, because we do not want to undermine the harm reduction from helping adults who are trying to stop smoking.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eighth sitting)

Lisa Cameron Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Trudy Harrison]

I welcome that intervention, but we cannot ignore the trebling of the number of 11 to 17-year-olds who are starting to vape. However much the Minister says that people who are not smoking should not vape, and that no children should be vaping, that is not the reality in the communities that we serve. It is certainly not the reality in my Copeland community. I think the hon. Lady is saying that vaping helps us to fix the problem, but I am equally keen to prevent the problem. The rate at which young people are taking up vaping needs serious consideration, but we also need serious evidence-gathering to understand not only the harms that could be caused by those who are vaping in the vicinity of others, but nicotine addiction.

[Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making a very passionate speech on behalf of herself and my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham, who I am sure will be very pleased with the contribution. However, I have to say that I agree with the hon. Member for North Tyneside because the evidence that we heard strongly suggested that smoking and vaping are not commensurate. My hon. Friend the Member for Copeland is entirely right that we need further evidence, but perhaps we should be looking at evidence-based policy making so that we make the policy when we have the evidence. The best way forward would be to seek such evidence.

[Trudy Harrison]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. That is really what I am calling for, although it does not detract from the need to prevent the normalisation of vaping. However, I repeat the request for more in-depth research into the impacts of vaping and nicotine addiction on children.