Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Bill

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Thursday 10th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Tom Elliott]

Amendment 1 relates to the independent reporting commission on paramilitary activity, the function of which is to examine general paramilitary activity within Northern Ireland, and its report will hopefully see a move away from terrorist activity. We have made huge and significant progress over recent years, but we want a total end to the terrorist campaign and paramilitary activity.

Murders have happened both recently and in the distant past. We have heard about loyalist paramilitary activity and killings, and the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) has made many representations about the disappearance of Lisa Dorrian, which has clearly had a major impact not only on her family, but on the community. We have also seen IRA murders in recent times—Robert McCartney, Denis Donaldson, Paul Quinn and more recently Kevin McGuigan in Belfast. What strikes me is the brutality and the clinical way in which those murders were carried out—the hallmark of the IRA in the past. The murders were not carried out by amateurs; they were carried out by professional terrorists and remind us of the IRA and other terrorist organisations. We want to bring an end to that. We must not forget that the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland said recently that the IRA and the army council still exist. We need to deal with that and to ask whether the IRA and the army council are still inextricably linked to Sinn Féin, which is in government in Northern Ireland.

Amendment 1 relates to the appointment of two members to the independent reporting commission by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. I accept that the “Fresh Start” document states that the Executive will appoint those two members, but we are seeking a move away from political appointments because it would be helpful if the appointments were made by a more independent body. When Northern Ireland parties were progressing aspects of the Stormont House proposals last year, it was suggested that the appointment of the proposed historical investigations unit director would also be done by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. During the many discussions on that process, there was some level of agreement that there could be other, better ways of making that appointment. The Ulster Unionist party put forward suggestions for an independent process, but given others’ concerns about that, the option of the director being appointed by the Northern Ireland Policing Board carried some weight among all the parties involved in the talks.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

The hon. Gentleman will be well aware that the Policing Board was established by the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000. In tabling amendment 1, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has checked that it would be within the Policing Board’s powers to make appointments to the independent reporting commission.

[Tom Elliott]

I thank the hon. Lady for that helpful intervention. We discussed the matter at length during the talks last year, into which all parties had input, including officials from the Northern Ireland Office and the Department of Justice. We felt that the Policing Board could be such a mechanism. I suppose that, in fairness, some people might say that it is still semi-political, and it is, but it has independent members so it can cross the political divide towards independents and lay people. That is why we felt that it was a good option for making appointments in this process, particularly given the fact that the Deputy First Minister has, by his own admission, said in the past that he was a senior member of the Provisional IRA. Obviously, there is still a question mark over whether he is still a member of the IRA army council.

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[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

It is appropriate that I place on record at the outset our appreciation for the independent reporting commission, the creation of which is important. I think I speak for the whole Committee in welcoming it.

Our debate on amendments 1 and 7 illustrates one of the great problems faced by any of us involved in the politics of Northern Ireland: the search for independence. With a population of 1.7 million, where, as is often said, everybody knows everybody, it is almost impossible to find anybody who is completely Simon-pure and separated from any accusation of community bias. The search for that person who is completely independent has in the past taken us to Finland, to South Africa, to Canada, and to Canada and back to Canada, and it will probably continue to do so.

It is intensely important that we realise that we are dealing with a conflict between aspiration and actuality. Everybody wants a completely independent nominating system, but nobody whom I have yet heard can come up with a mechanism to achieve that beyond peradventure and beyond criticism.

[Lady Hermon]

In his comments, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman did not mean to cast any sort of aspersions on the composition of the Independent Monitoring Commission, which did monitor and did report. The proposed body will do both and will be called the independent reporting commission. We had Lord Alderdice, John Grieve, a retired senior member of the Garda Siochana and a retired American police officer, who did a fantastic job on the Independent Monitoring Commission. I am sure the hon. Gentleman meant to add a sentence to say that we had full confidence in their independence in the IMC.

[Stephen Pound]

That is precisely what I was about to say. The point I was making is that we may succeed. Quite often we succeed, but sometimes it is against the odds. The search for that additional independence continues. The hon. Lady is, as ever, completely right in this matter.

When the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Tom Elliott) introduced amendment 1, he was right to mention some of atrocities—not just the recent atrocities, but the murders of Paul Quinn and Robert McCartney. I spent a great deal of time with Paul Quinn’s parents, and it is important that we never forget that horrific murder. Even though it was some years ago, the memory is still raw.

The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) focused the debate by talking about the veto safeguard that exists in the current system. It is immensely important that we realise the significance of that. If we are trying to find a mechanism for a nomination process, the proposed process is about as close as we are going to get. I will listen with interest to what the Government say, but we also need to pay attention to amendment 7, which was tabled by the SDLP. The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) pointed out, rightly, that the predecessor to the current Secretary of State had some of these issues pointed out to him at the time. It would have been better if we had considered them then, instead of now.

Just as these amendments illustrate one of the problems of finding people to appoint who are beyond criticism, they also illustrate one of the great strengths of Northern Ireland politics. Even when politicians are elected from a particular community, and may even be from a particular community, there has never been, in my hearing, any suggestion that they have failed to represent every aspect of their community. That is noteworthy, and we say it far too rarely on the Floor of the House. That aspect of life in Northern Ireland gives me great hope for the future.

The Opposition support the Government on this issue, which is an unusual position for me to be in. My hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) and I would like to hear more about these issues, and particularly about the points made in amendment 7, but for the time being, we think that the clause is about as good as we are going to get.

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[Mr Wallace]

The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee is certainly not prohibited from examining the appointment by the UK Government, and it will no doubt be able to make recommendations or to make its views known. As to whether that is formally part of the process, the best thing, as I said, is to reflect on that. If my hon. Friend would like, I will write to him with a response or, hopefully, get back to him before the Bill’s stages are completed.

I turn now to clauses 2 to 5. Clause 2 deals with the exercise of the functions of the new commission. The clause provides that the objective of the commission is to promote progress towards ending paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland. The commission will be required to exercise its functions in the way it considers most appropriate for meeting that objective.

The commission will also be under the duties not to: prejudice the national security interests of the United Kingdom or Ireland; put at risk the life or safety of any person; have a prejudicial effect on the prevention, investigation or detection of crime; or have a prejudicial effect on any actual or prospective legal proceedings. With the exception of the duty not to have a prejudicial effect on the prevention, investigation or detection of crime, those were all duties to which the Independent Monitoring Commission was subject. The new duty is now considered necessary given the shift in investigative responsibility for paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland. Its intention is to ensure that the Police Service of Northern Ireland can engage fully and meaningfully with the commission.

[Lady Hermon]

The Minister cites clause 2, which says the independent reporting commission’s objective is to

“promote progress towards ending paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland.”

For the record, will the Minister confirm that the commission is absolutely free—actually, that it will be called on—to report that paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland may well be initiated, instigated or supported from within the Republic of Ireland?

[Mr Wallace]

The IRC, obviously in conjunction with the duties I mentioned, will be free to report on anything of that nature. It is not only the UK Government who are keen to pursue this, but the Government of the Republic of Ireland. I think that both Governments recognise that this cannot be done in a vacuum, with Northern Ireland entirely carved out of paramilitary activity on the island of Ireland.

In respect of the duties not to prejudice national security interests and not to put at risk the life or safety of any person, the Secretary of State must issue guidance to the commission about the exercise of its functions, in so far as the commission’s functions touch on the disclosure of information that might be prejudicial to those duties.

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[Mr Wallace]

The clue is in the word “appropriate”. We want to set up the commission and make sure that it carries the momentum of public opinion to resolve the issue of paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland. Our view is that the best way to do that is to assign to two officeholders—the First and Deputy First Ministers— the authority to nominate two members of the four-member commission. That is the decision the Government have taken.

I have read the hon. Gentleman’s amendment 7. The First and Deputy First Ministers do not operate in isolation in the Executive; they consult and speak to Ministers on a daily basis. That may not be his experience, but it has certainly been mine since I was appointed. I want to place on the record my admiration for the current Justice Minister, David Ford, and what he has done over the past few years, and I am sad that he has said that he will not continue in that role. He is incredibly well respected in the Executive, and it is our view that the First and Deputy First Ministers do speak to him and regularly consult him. Perhaps they do not do so as much as the hon. Gentleman might like, but they would be unwise to not consult that office in any future debate.

[Lady Hermon]

It might assist the Minister if he took the Bill off the Dispatch Box and looked at the clause that we are discussing. The point that the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) is making is a good one. I am not talking about the amendment about who appoints whom to the Independent Monitoring Commission—I mean the independent reporting commission; it is hard to think that it is not a monitoring commission. I am talking about clause 5, on the conclusion of the commission’s work, about which the Minister has been speaking. The hon. Gentleman has made the point that before the Secretary of State makes the regulations that the Minister has referred to, clause 5(2)(c) specifies not only that the Secretary of State must consult, quite rightly, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, but that she must consult

“any other person the Secretary of State considers appropriate.”

As the hon. Gentleman said, it would be helpful if the Minister put on record this afternoon, in Hansard, the fact that “any other person…appropriate” includes the other Executive Ministers.

[Danny Kinahan]

rose—

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[Lady Hermon]

It is good to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward, while we discuss this important Bill, and I will say now that unless the Minister gives me a satisfactory reply, I am minded to divide the Committee on amendment 6.

Amendment 6 strives radically to improve clause 8, and I cannot believe that the Minister does not think that that is necessary—the clause certainly needs to be radically improved. We have just spent at least an hour in a useful debate on the establishment of yet another commission in Northern Ireland, namely the independent reporting commission. I am delighted that under clause 2, the primary objective of that commission will be to

“promote progress towards ending paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland.”

It is long overdue for the people of Northern Ireland to be rid of the scourge of paramilitary activity. They will be delighted with that commission when it is established, and will have confidence in it doing a good job.

On Second Reading, the Secretary of State said something important about the Stormont House agreement, which the Minister has cited regularly in his opening remarks. She stated that that agreement

“places fresh obligations on Northern Ireland’s political representatives to work together with determination to rid society of paramilitary activity and groups.—[Official Report, 22 February 2016; Vol. 606, c. 70.]

I say “hear hear” to that.

As the Minister rightly explained, clause 8 introduces an undertaking that all MLAs must give before they can participate in any of the Assembly’s proceedings, and as drafted, it goes to great lengths to set out the terms of that undertaking. Among other things, it means that before an MLA can participate in any Assembly proceedings, they must pledge to support the rule of law and to challenge all paramilitary activity and associated criminality. Those are two of the detailed provisions in that new undertaking.

Having gone to such extraordinary lengths to draft that new undertaking to comply with the Stormont House agreement, the glaring omission—we cannot possibly allow this to get through the Committee unamended—is that no provisions refer to Standing Orders that will investigate alleged breaches of that undertaking, and no Standing Orders will impose sanctions on MLAs who are found to be guilty of such a breach. Let us hope that no MLA would ever stoop so low as to breach their own undertaking, but if such an allegation is made it must be investigated, and if the MLA is found to be guilty, there must be sanctions.

The current drafting of clause 8(1)(2) is interesting, because we are already quite happy that:

“Standing Orders shall provide for the procedure for giving the undertaking.”

We are a sovereign Parliament—how often have I heard in recent weeks that sovereignty belongs to this Parliament—and the beauty of my amendment is that it simply adds to what we already have. Standing Orders will be introduced by the Assembly to investigate alleged breaches of the undertaking by MLAs, and to impose sanctions on MLAs who are in breach of that undertaking.

When I made that suggestion on Second Reading, the Secretary of State said in response to an intervention about sanctions:

“In terms of internal matters of discipline within the Assembly, that really is a matter for the Assembly itself to determine.”—[Official Report, 22 February 2016; Vol. 606, c. 72.]

[Sammy Wilson]

Does the hon. Lady accept that the only sanction in the Bill is that those who do not give the undertaking in the first place cannot participate in the Assembly? There is not even a limit on how much time can pass before they can be expelled. In the light of some of the comments recently made by Sinn Féin, which said that republicans could use violence at another time, it is important that MLAs make that undertaking in the Stormont House agreement and are kept to it. If they make subsequent statements, there should be a process for investigating that and deciding what punishment should be imposed.

[Lady Hermon]

That is absolutely correct. The glaring omission—I am repeating myself, but it is worth repetition—is that although we have introduced a new undertaking for MLAs, that is not the same as the Minister’s pledge of office. That has been extended, and the Minister rightly read out the sanctions for Ministers who breach their pledge. This undertaking is completely new for all MLAs, and it is the duty of this Committee to ensure that when the Bill leaves this place, it is fit for purpose. The Bill has been introduced to get rid of paramilitary activity and associated criminality, which has been the scourge of Northern Ireland for years and years. For goodness’ sake, let us do it right!

The beauty of my amendment is that it does not interfere with the domestic arrangements and internal workings of the Assembly. It simply ensures that Standing Orders will be introduced by the Assembly, and that there will be a process of investigation and sanctions for a breach of the undertaking. That is not interfering with the Assembly’s internal discipline. That is my amendment, and if the Minister is unable to give me a satisfactory reassurance on that issue at the end of the debate, I will push the amendment to a vote.

[Sammy Wilson]

Does the hon. Lady accept that there could be general frustration, because the Bill requires MLAs to give an undertaking, but if they breach that undertaking and there are no sanctions, people will say, “What is the point of MLAs giving those undertakings?” If anything, it will generate more anger, rather than assuring people that those who are elected and serve in the Assembly are supporting democratic means.

[Lady Hermon]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about that. In introducing this group, the Minister referred to the fact that we currently do not have cross-community support for various Standing Orders. It is therefore the duty of this House today to make sure that when this legislation leaves this place, it is fit for purpose, and so it must include a requirement that Standing Orders are introduced to address both sanctions and the investigation of alleged—

[Tom Elliott]

I support the hon. Lady’s amendment and her thought process on this matter. Does she agree that it seems to have been a gap in the “Fresh Start” agreement that none of this was dealt with in that process?

[Lady Hermon]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that. One has to ask why any references to sanctions were left out of the “Fresh Start” agreement. The fact that sanctions were not mentioned in that may well suit a political party—Sinn Féin. I am so weary of having spent my entire life having to deal with paramilitary activity. He made reference at the beginning of his contribution on the earlier group to Lisa Dorrian, the young lady in my constituency who was murdered and disappeared by those with loyalist paramilitary connections. Both loyalist and republican paramilitaries are a scourge for the rest of the community. I am very pleased that he is supporting my amendments this afternoon, because as an independent, I am totally reliant on other colleagues to provide an additional Teller at the vote and I may be calling on him later.

[Jim Shannon]

Lisa Dorrian disappeared from Ballyhalbert in my constituency. Searches took place in Comber, also in my constituency, but unfortunately nothing as to where she might have been buried was found. But there are people in society who are very aware of where she is, and some of those people have been named in the press. May I encourage the hon. Lady to make this statement, which I will also be making: there are people who have information about this, so let them come to the police, tell them where the body is and give Lisa Dorrian’s family the peace of mind that they need?

[Lady Hermon]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, as he is right in everything he has said. Lisa Dorrian, a young lady in her early 20s, was disappeared and murdered 11 years ago, and her family have never had the peace of mind that comes with a Christian burial. Her remains have never been found, despite the valiant efforts of the PSNI—and I put that on the record. There are others who were disappeared by the IRA, such as Columba McVeigh, a young man from Donaghmore whose remains have never been found. There is pain and grief on all sides. As I say, paramilitarism has been a dreadful scourge across the face of Northern Ireland for far, far too long. I have the highest regard for this Minister, so when he gets up I do not want to hear the Stormont House agreement cited as a reason why we cannot put into this Bill this afternoon a requirement that Standing Orders are introduced by the Assembly. No detail is being provided about the sanctions or about the investigative procedure in respect of a breach of the undertaking. The very least we can do for the people of Northern Ireland, including the grieving parents of Lisa Dorrian and Columba McVeigh, although his mother passed away some time ago—

[Mr Wallace]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

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[Lady Hermon]

Is the Minister about to concede? That is excellent and I will give way.

[Mr Wallace]

I wouldn’t hold your breath. I hear what the hon. Lady is saying, and I am not going to refer to the “Fresh Start” agreement, but I must ask why she feels it is appropriate for this House to impose on a devolved institution and prescribe to it Standing Orders within that institution? We would not be doing that for Holyrood or for Cardiff, so why does she think it would be appropriate in this case for Westminster to impose that on the Assembly, given that under Standing Order 69B it could make provision to deal with all of this?

[Lady Hermon]

May I just ask the Minister to pick up the Bill and turn to page 5? As I have mentioned, the Bill already sets the precedent here, as in clause 8 it clearly states:

“Standing orders shall provide for the procedure for giving the undertaking.”

The Bill has therefore set the precedent; we are quite prepared to oblige the Assembly to introduce Standing Orders to provide for a procedure for this undertaking. That is why my amendments are so persuasive and why I am hopeful that Her Majesty’s Opposition—I am looking to them—will be supporting me this afternoon. I know that other colleagues are going to support me on this. The precedent has already been set, it is in black and white in the Bill and my amendments simply add further Standing Orders, without any detail about the sanctions or about the investigatory procedure.

[Sammy Wilson]

Does the hon. Lady accept that the Bill states not only that Standing Orders “shall” do some things, but that they shall not do some things, as they

“may not specify a day or period of time after which members are prohibited from giving the undertaking”?

This House is already telling the Assembly what it can and cannot put in Standing Orders, so why not include something about sanctions?

[Lady Hermon]

I am grateful for that helpful intervention, as ever, from the hon. Gentleman. I am sure the Minister and the Government would not like to be accused of being inconsistent. We have to be consistent here. A consistent approach has to be taken to the eradication, once and for all, of paramilitary activity and all its criminality in Northern Ireland. The Minister will have read this Bill many times and when he carefully reads it again, he will know that the precedent has already been set. We in this House are the sovereign Parliament, thank goodness, and just as a show of sovereignty the Standing Orders are already provided for in several clauses. My amendments simply extend further Standing Orders, without any detail about the sanctions or the investigatory procedure.

On that, I will bring my remarks to a close, having warned the Minister that I will push my amendment to a vote at the end, with the help of volunteers to be Tellers.

[Ms Ritchie]

A number of Members, including the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), who raises this issue again through her amendment, have asked questions about the content and policing of the pledge and undertaking. That was done on Second Reading by my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), as well as by the hon. Lady, who has enunciated her views on the principle again today.

I shall speak to my party’s amendments. Amendment 10 refers to paragraph (e) in schedule 4 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and clarifies that Ministers are already subject to a requirement to act in accordance with all decisions made by the Executive and the Assembly. Amendment 16 deals with clause 8, inserting the words “others, including” in the reference to MLAs. The provision might seem small, but it is central to the whole-community approach that will be needed to tackle paramilitary activity. It would compel Members of the Assembly to work with civic society in Northern Ireland, reflecting our approach during the Stormont House agreement of having that community approach to ridding Northern Ireland of paramilitarism.

I agree with the hon. Lady that paramilitarism has been a scourge and a cancer in our society, right across the community, and we want rid of it, but we also believe that there must be adherence the best democratic principles within our elected institutions. Our reference in amendment 15 to the Nolan principles would ensure that this progress and political action on paramilitarism extends to MPs, councillors and all in public office. Having the First Ministers make their pledge orally at a sitting of the Assembly would publicise a cross-executive commitment to a society free from the blight of paramilitarism. In our papers for the Stormont House talks, we advocated a community approach, stating:

“Political parties ought to be showing coherent and consistent shared standards which recognise and repudiate nefarious paramilitary interests and involvements. This should reflect a shared approach which is about rooting out paramilitarism and its trace activities, not just singling out particular groups or given parties.”

Our amendments would clarify the terms of the pledge and undertaking and avoid further misinterpretation or a tension between different parts of the pledge and undertaking. As I have said previously, the duty in the Bill to

“support those who are determined to make the transition away from paramilitarism”

is vague and could be misinterpreted as supporting someone or a group that is determined to someday move away from paramilitarism. The SDLP is in favour of support for transition away from paramilitarism, but wants to ensure that that cannot be used to cover tolerance for paramilitary activity, for which there should be no tolerance. Combining what are currently two distinct precepts of the pledge and undertaking into one would reduce that risk.

I have direct experience of this issue. As a former Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive, on Tuesday 16 October 2007—I remember the date exactly—I cut off funding to the conflict transformation initiative following advice from the then Chief Constable, deputy Chief Constable and others that the Ulster Defence Association was engaging in criminality. Maintaining that funding would have been construed as supporting paramilitarism, not transition, however determined the UDA was to do that someday.

Like the hon. Member for North Down, we have concerns about the policing of the pledge and undertaking. Any progress on tackling paramilitary activity is undermined by any suggestion that there are no consequences for non-compliance. I note that the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) was making soundings in our direction. I hope he will see fit to support our amendments on sanctions in relation to the pledge and undertaking.

We envisage that the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints and the Northern Ireland Assembly Commissioner for Standards would receive any complaints relating to breaches of the pledge and undertaking. Both could avail themselves of the services of a pledge adjudicator on a case-by-case basis, if that was felt to be appropriate. The whole purpose of our amendments is to ensure best compliance and conformity with good democratic principles, and that we have a total move away from the scourge of paramilitarism that has been in Northern Ireland society for far too long.

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[Stephen Pound]

Labour Members will not be voting with the Government. We will be abstaining on this question, in the hope that the Government will be able to reflect and consult further and more widely. In this case, more than any other, there is a need for further discussion and consultation. We cannot simply rely on this one being forced through on a majority. The argument that we have heard today is far too powerful and far too relevant to be voted away.

[Lady Hermon]

I have to register my deep disappointment in Her Majesty’s official Opposition; I had expected better of them this afternoon. This is a very important debate for the people of Northern Ireland, who have had to live with paramilitary activity for so long. We would have it called terrorism, but we now define it as paramilitary activity. There is no difference between those people, however; they are terrorists by another name. I am deeply disappointed, and I would like the hon. Gentleman to explain the rationale for this decision by Her Majesty’s Opposition. He gave the House some good reasons earlier, and there is consensus on these Benches, so will he tell us what legitimate justification he has for sitting on his hands? Forgive me for putting it like that, but that is effectively what he and his colleagues are going to do this afternoon, and it is quite disgraceful.

[Stephen Pound]

I accept the lash that the hon. Lady applies, and to a certain extent I deserve it. However, the point that my colleagues and I would make is that we have to look at this matter further and in greater depth. More consultation needs to be done and more discussion needs to be heard. We have heard ambivalence on both sides of the House today, and questions have been asked about interpretation. It is essential that we get this right. Heaven knows, when the hon. Lady refers to living under terrorism, I know what she means but I can never precisely understand it because, thanks be to God, I have not experienced it myself. However, I have immense respect and admiration for those who have experienced it, and I hope that they will allow Labour Members to say that we have to get this right today.

We have to discuss these matters further. If the Government are prepared to extend an olive branch, to make an effort to consult more widely and to understand that this is not the best way forward, it will be appropriate for us neither to support nor to oppose them on this matter. I am sorry if I appear to be sitting on my hands. I apologise profoundly to those people who have been making the right points, but I hope they will understand that what we have heard today is not entirely a Manichaean argument. There have been many areas of interpretation, and it is there that we need to go. We need to get this right. This is not a binary choice. This is something that has to be discussed further.