Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Bill

Stephen Pound Excerpts

Thursday 10th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

It is appropriate that I place on record at the outset our appreciation for the independent reporting commission, the creation of which is important. I think I speak for the whole Committee in welcoming it.

Our debate on amendments 1 and 7 illustrates one of the great problems faced by any of us involved in the politics of Northern Ireland: the search for independence. With a population of 1.7 million, where, as is often said, everybody knows everybody, it is almost impossible to find anybody who is completely Simon-pure and separated from any accusation of community bias. The search for that person who is completely independent has in the past taken us to Finland, to South Africa, to Canada, and to Canada and back to Canada, and it will probably continue to do so.

It is intensely important that we realise that we are dealing with a conflict between aspiration and actuality. Everybody wants a completely independent nominating system, but nobody whom I have yet heard can come up with a mechanism to achieve that beyond peradventure and beyond criticism.

[Lady Hermon]

In his comments, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman did not mean to cast any sort of aspersions on the composition of the Independent Monitoring Commission, which did monitor and did report. The proposed body will do both and will be called the independent reporting commission. We had Lord Alderdice, John Grieve, a retired senior member of the Garda Siochana and a retired American police officer, who did a fantastic job on the Independent Monitoring Commission. I am sure the hon. Gentleman meant to add a sentence to say that we had full confidence in their independence in the IMC.

[Stephen Pound]

That is precisely what I was about to say. The point I was making is that we may succeed. Quite often we succeed, but sometimes it is against the odds. The search for that additional independence continues. The hon. Lady is, as ever, completely right in this matter.

When the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Tom Elliott) introduced amendment 1, he was right to mention some of atrocities—not just the recent atrocities, but the murders of Paul Quinn and Robert McCartney. I spent a great deal of time with Paul Quinn’s parents, and it is important that we never forget that horrific murder. Even though it was some years ago, the memory is still raw.

The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) focused the debate by talking about the veto safeguard that exists in the current system. It is immensely important that we realise the significance of that. If we are trying to find a mechanism for a nomination process, the proposed process is about as close as we are going to get. I will listen with interest to what the Government say, but we also need to pay attention to amendment 7, which was tabled by the SDLP. The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) pointed out, rightly, that the predecessor to the current Secretary of State had some of these issues pointed out to him at the time. It would have been better if we had considered them then, instead of now.

Just as these amendments illustrate one of the problems of finding people to appoint who are beyond criticism, they also illustrate one of the great strengths of Northern Ireland politics. Even when politicians are elected from a particular community, and may even be from a particular community, there has never been, in my hearing, any suggestion that they have failed to represent every aspect of their community. That is noteworthy, and we say it far too rarely on the Floor of the House. That aspect of life in Northern Ireland gives me great hope for the future.

The Opposition support the Government on this issue, which is an unusual position for me to be in. My hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) and I would like to hear more about these issues, and particularly about the points made in amendment 7, but for the time being, we think that the clause is about as good as we are going to get.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Ben Wallace)]

It is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. I thank hon. Members for their contributions and for the suggestions that they have made in the amendments.

As we have discussed, the first five clauses of this short Bill concern the independent reporting commission. This new body is one of a raft of measures set out in November’s “Fresh Start” agreement to tackle the ongoing impact of paramilitary activity. The commission, which is to be established through an international agreement between the United Kingdom Government and the Irish Government, will have an overriding objective to promote progress towards ending paramilitary activity.

Although the IRC has different functions from the Independent Monitoring Commission, it builds on the precedent set by that commission, which was in operation between 2004 and 2011, monitoring activity by paramilitary groups and overseeing implementation of security normalisation measures.

I will now speak about the clauses and related amendments. Clause 1 makes reference to the functions of the new independent reporting commission, as set out in the “Fresh Start” agreement. Those will be: to report annually on progress towards ending paramilitary activity; to report on the implementation of the measures of the Government, the Northern Ireland Executive and the Irish Government to tackle paramilitary activity, including overseeing implementation of the Executive’s strategy to end paramilitarism; and to consult a wide range of stakeholders, including law enforcement agencies, local councils, communities and civic society organisations.

The reports of the commission will inform the Executive’s programme for government through to 2021. The commission will be independent of the sponsoring Governments and will have significant discretion in fulfilling its functions. That independence will help to ensure the credibility of its reports and its success in engaging with the necessary range of stakeholders. The Secretary of State may provide the commission with such resources and funding as she considers appropriate.

Finally, in line with the “Fresh Start” agreement, the commission will be made up of four members—one nominated by the UK Government, one by the Irish Government and two by the Executive. Clause 1(4) confers on the First and Deputy First Ministers the power to jointly nominate the Executive members.

Two amendments have been tabled to that subsection. In amendment 1, the hon. Members for South Antrim (Danny Kinahan) and for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Tom Elliott) propose that the power to nominate two members be conferred on the Northern Ireland Policing Board instead of the First and Deputy First Ministers. The “Fresh Start” agreement provides that two members of the new commission will be nominated by the Executive. The Northern Ireland Policing Board is not, however, part of the Executive, and the amendment would therefore not be consistent with the terms of that agreement.

In amendment 7, the hon. Members for Foyle (Mark Durkan), for South Down (Ms Ritchie) and for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) propose that the power to nominate be conferred on the Northern Ireland Minister of Justice, following consultation with the First Ministers, and subject to the approval of the Northern Ireland Executive Committee. While the Government recognise the interest that the Justice Minister, in particular, will have in the nominations, it is our view that the First and Deputy First Ministers, acting jointly, are the most appropriate office holders to nominate members on behalf of the Executive as a whole, in view of the objective and functions of the commission.

We would of course encourage the First and Deputy First Ministers to consult their Executive colleagues—in particular the Justice Minister—before making nominations. It is also open to the First and Deputy First Ministers to refer the nominations to the Executive Committee and, indeed, to consult more widely. For example, amendment 1 proposes a role for the Northern Ireland Policing Board, and that could certainly provide helpful recommendations regarding candidates for nomination. I also noted that the hon. Member for Foyle highlighted the difference between the HIU and the IRC—two different bodies with very different functions. His point is well made when it comes to the reference to the Northern Ireland Policing Board.

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[Nigel Mills]

I am sure that that could be said, but I am not sure whether that is set out in the amendments. We all know that such processes can be abused for partisan reasons, by people making scurrilous complaints that we know will never go anywhere, but which take up time and cause anxiety and spending.

Let me provide a further example. There is another pledge to support those who are determined to make the transition away from paramilitarism. There could be a complaint that somebody had not given sufficient support to those who wanted to move away from paramilitary activity. That would be a nonsense, because there could be many reasons why an individual might not have given that degree of support in that situation. What kind of support are they meant to be providing as an individual MLA? I think we need to be cautious about moving from a set of extremely well-meaning and well-intentioned objectives, such as enforcing acceptable pledges and undertakings, and making them into a code of conduct that I believe we would struggle to enforce sensibly in this form.

[Stephen Pound]

The debate on this group all started so well. The Minister’s initial moves on timetabling were sensible and proportionate, and I believe would have been supported by the whole House. I think the key comments—these should be the leitmotif of this afternoon’s entire discussion—were about the creation of a society “free of paramilitarism”. That is the point we start from. That is where we want to go. It is the route to that desired state that we are discussing this afternoon.

We heard a tour de force from the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon). Sometimes I gain the impression that hers is a multi-Member constituency, because it seems almost impossible that one person could sway the Committee so effectively—and not for the first time, either. I hope that the hon. Lady will allow me, on behalf of my colleagues and, I am sure, all of us, to say what an immensely impressive case she made.

Come what may, the Government have to reflect and consult and reconsider. We have heard too much evidence this afternoon for us simply to allow this matter to slide through. We have heard some immense detail. The hon. Member for North Down talked about the conflicts that arose during her ministerial period. This provides yet another reason why we need to examine the case somewhat further.

The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) described the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for North Down as sensible and prudent, while also touching on a vital point. The right hon. Gentleman talked about public confidence, which I believe is very much at the heart of the matter. We can argue about the niceties, about interpretation and about angels dancing on the head of a pin. We can go through this catechism and ask whether people adhere to this precisely or not, but ultimately, the issue of public confidence is immensely important. There cannot be an area in the politics and daily life of Northern Ireland where there is a greater need for public confidence than in the transition away from paramilitarism and violence towards the desired state that I referred to earlier.

The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley also talked about identifying an ambivalence in attitude, and that feeds into some of the comments made by the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills). There is a need for further finessing and interpretation. When the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) went through the clauses of the Bill in detail, he put his finger on the fact that we are still not entirely clear about what many of them mean. The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Tom Elliott) also referred to that.

On behalf of my colleagues on the Opposition side of the Chamber, I call on the Government to take cognisance of the strength, the power and the logic of the arguments that they have heard on the Floor of the House today, not just because of the strength of those arguments but because of the impact that the proposals will have on civic life in Northern Ireland. What has been said today cannot be unsaid, and what has been done cannot be undone. We have to recognise the impact of what we have heard this afternoon. The Government have our entire support in this transition towards a good society and, as the SDLP put it when we debated an earlier amendment, a wholesome society.

[Jim Shannon]

I assume from what the hon. Gentleman is saying that we can rely on Labour’s support for the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) .

[Stephen Pound]

Labour Members will not be voting with the Government. We will be abstaining on this question, in the hope that the Government will be able to reflect and consult further and more widely. In this case, more than any other, there is a need for further discussion and consultation. We cannot simply rely on this one being forced through on a majority. The argument that we have heard today is far too powerful and far too relevant to be voted away.

[Lady Hermon]

I have to register my deep disappointment in Her Majesty’s official Opposition; I had expected better of them this afternoon. This is a very important debate for the people of Northern Ireland, who have had to live with paramilitary activity for so long. We would have it called terrorism, but we now define it as paramilitary activity. There is no difference between those people, however; they are terrorists by another name. I am deeply disappointed, and I would like the hon. Gentleman to explain the rationale for this decision by Her Majesty’s Opposition. He gave the House some good reasons earlier, and there is consensus on these Benches, so will he tell us what legitimate justification he has for sitting on his hands? Forgive me for putting it like that, but that is effectively what he and his colleagues are going to do this afternoon, and it is quite disgraceful.

[Stephen Pound]

I accept the lash that the hon. Lady applies, and to a certain extent I deserve it. However, the point that my colleagues and I would make is that we have to look at this matter further and in greater depth. More consultation needs to be done and more discussion needs to be heard. We have heard ambivalence on both sides of the House today, and questions have been asked about interpretation. It is essential that we get this right. Heaven knows, when the hon. Lady refers to living under terrorism, I know what she means but I can never precisely understand it because, thanks be to God, I have not experienced it myself. However, I have immense respect and admiration for those who have experienced it, and I hope that they will allow Labour Members to say that we have to get this right today.

We have to discuss these matters further. If the Government are prepared to extend an olive branch, to make an effort to consult more widely and to understand that this is not the best way forward, it will be appropriate for us neither to support nor to oppose them on this matter. I am sorry if I appear to be sitting on my hands. I apologise profoundly to those people who have been making the right points, but I hope they will understand that what we have heard today is not entirely a Manichaean argument. There have been many areas of interpretation, and it is there that we need to go. We need to get this right. This is not a binary choice. This is something that has to be discussed further.

[Mr Wallace]

I shall be short, sharp and to the point. I have listened to the contributions today, and feel that I must take Members back to what the Bill is about, which is to enable the “Fresh Start” agreement to be implemented in law. That is the basis on which we must draw the line of consensus. I have heard the arguments of the SDLP that the “Fresh Start” agreement was not really a consensus—that actually no one was massively behind it.

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[Mr Wallace]

I hear what the right hon. Gentleman says, and I do not disagree with a large part of it, but the Bill deals with the “Fresh Start” agreement—the Stormont House agreement—in so far as it applies in Northern Ireland. I am sure that there will be further opportunities to redefine “victims” as that term would apply in the United Kingdom. Under the previous Government, the Ministry of Justice did a lot of work to ensure that the criminal injuries compensation scheme did not extend to burglars, robbers and everyone else who had managed to claim against it when they had perpetrated a crime. Precedents in United Kingdom law, or certainly in English and Welsh law, make that difference clear. I hear loud and clear what the right hon. Gentleman says, and I hope that there will be opportunities to address that in future legislation, but today we are considering this Bill, which is a consequence of the “Fresh Start” agreement.

New clause 4 would establish the implementation and reconciliation group, which is one of four new bodies to be established as part of the Stormont House agreement. The others are, as we had hoped, the historical investigations unit, the independent commission on information retrieval and the oral history archive. Members will be aware that the Government continue to support the establishment of all those bodies and the other measures in the Stormont House agreement. However, for reasons that I will set out, we do not agree that it would be a positive step to move ahead with the IRG in the absence of the other bodies and measures. The IRG and the other measures to deal with Northern Ireland’s past require cross-community support in Northern Ireland and must be dealt with as part of the package of bodies and measures proposed in the Stormont House agreement.

As I have mentioned, the IRG is an integral part of the four bodies proposed in the Stormont House agreement. The Government have committed £150 million towards the establishment of those bodies as part of our commitment to help Northern Ireland to deal with its troubled past. The design and implementation of the bodies was considered as part of the intense negotiations during the “Fresh Start” legacy talks, but the establishment of the IRG and the other legacy mechanisms could not be agreed at the time. The Government continue to work on making progress on the legacy strand of those negotiations. As is set out in the Stormont House agreement, the Government support much of what was proposed. The IRG should receive and commission reports; it should promote reconciliation; it should be appointed by Northern Irish political parties, the UK Government and the Irish Government; and it should have a chair of international standing who is nominated jointly by the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister.

As Members know, there have been a number of previous initiatives aimed at addressing the legacy of Northern Ireland’s troubled past, and they have all recognised that it cannot be reduced to a one-dimensional issue. No single approach or solution will work in isolation; a concerted and multifaceted approach is required. The Stormont House agreement makes it clear that the four legacy bodies are intended to constitute a package of measures to deal with the past, each addressing a different dimension of this difficult issue.

I suggest that establishing the IRG on its own would not ultimately promote reconciliation, although that is a key function of the body. I say that because the proposed new clause ignores many of the ingredients acknowledged by the political parties in Northern Ireland as integral to dealing with Northern Ireland’s past. Those ingredients must address the suffering of victims and survivors, facilitate the pursuit of justice and information recovery, and be balanced, proportionate, transparent, fair and equitable.

A significant criticism that victims have raised with us regarding the current approach is the piecemeal nature of how legacy matters are dealt with. I do not think that we wish to perpetuate that through a piecemeal implementation of the legacy institutions. The IRG, as an integral part of the Stormont House agreement, can realistically be implemented only in parallel with the other legacy bodies, and it is clear that progress on the whole package of legacy mechanisms must have cross-community support in Northern Ireland.

I recognise the views of UUP and SDLP Members about new clauses 2 and 3. Indeed, I sympathise with the sentiment behind the measures. On the face of it, reverting to the pre-St. Andrews agreement method of electing the First and Deputy First Ministers might be a welcome change, because that involved an overt demonstration of cross-community support. However, to accept the new clauses would be to turn back the clock to before the St Andrews agreement and the subsequent legislation, which is the basis on which devolved government was restored in 2007 and continues to this day. The reality is that such changes would need to be supported on a cross-community basis, but that has not happened. The purpose of the Bill is to implement the Government’s commitments under the “Fresh Start” agreement, and the proposals go beyond that agreement.

I am concerned that if we made changes to the institutions without cross- community support in Northern Ireland, we would risk destabilising the political process in Northern Ireland, damaging the substantial progress that we have made and diverting attention from the challenges and opportunities that Northern Ireland faces. Our priority in supporting devolved politics in Northern Ireland must be to implement the “Fresh Start” and Stormont House agreements, and we are taking another step towards that with this Bill. I recognise that this matter has been considered in the past. The same amendment was tabled in the other place during the passage of the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill in early 2014, but the Government could not support it then. I am afraid that, for the same reason, we will not do so today.

I have outlined the reasons why the Government will not support new clauses 1 to 5 and amendment 2, and I urge hon. Members not to press them to a Division.

[Stephen Pound]

I will speak very briefly. Not for the first time, the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) has made a very pertinent and relevant point. As someone from west London who was close to the Harrods bombing, the Town House bombing and the BBC bombing—I am also aware of what happened in Guildford, Birmingham and Warrington—I would be the first person to agree with his point that there is no territorial definition of victimhood.

I thank the Minister—the hon. and gallant Gentleman —for his comments. Everyone in the House must associate themselves with his words—there can be no equivalence. We hear that loudly from this side of the House and from that side of the House, and I think it is also said across the nation. We must support our armed forces—that is absolutely right—and we must endorse and support the armed forces covenant. I think of the work of the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and many other people who have done so much work in that area.

Above all, we must never ever forget, in everything that we do in relation to this subject, that victims must be at the heart of our deliberations. Victims are the people we must consider above all. We have to work with those who are physically and psychologically scarred by their horrors.

I will not speak for long, because I must give other Members a chance to speak, but I want to support and endorse the comments made the Minister—the hon. and, if I may say so, gallant Gentleman.

[Danny Kinahan]

I know that we are tight for time, but I really want to push our new clauses. The main reason why we tabled new clause 1 is that legacy issues are bubbling away at the moment. We need to ensure that we have a level playing field, but we do not at the moment. We saw an example of that at the weekend: the ex-Army bomber of Osnabrück has been given his war pension, yet the family of Lance Corporal Young of the Household Cavalry, who wanted legal aid, have not got that. There is an imbalance. If we are to go into all these issues in the future, particularly regarding victims—

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[Stephen Pound]

As we move from afternoon to dusk, there is a tendency to allow an elegiac mood to suffuse the House, which is why the optimistic and forward-looking comments of the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon)—I would like to call him my hon. Friend—are so, so important. What a fitting grace note to end this afternoon’s discussions. We have today discussed matters of great seriousness—sombre matters, dark matters and worrying matters—but to hear that note from my hon. Friend gives me hope, and I think I speak for the whole House when I say so.

There are two things that are important to say at the end of this Third Reading debate. First, we are actually discussing an agreement. Let us not forget that there was a time not so long ago when it was somehow doubted that there would a Stormont House agreement. It was somehow doubted that there would be a “Fresh Start” agreement. When I see the weary faces on the Government Benches and I think of those long nights, I know that it is a tribute to the individual commitment of Members on both sides of the House, from all parties and from all parts of civic and political society in Northern Ireland that we are actually here today, on the Floor of the House, discussing an agreement and a fresh start.

Secondly, it is important that we have spent an afternoon discussing Northern Ireland. For too long we have tended to speak of Northern Ireland only on occasion of crisis. We tend to speak of Northern Ireland when there is an urgent question or a statement to be made. This is legislation moving forward. This is serious, sensible and sober legislation cementing the bricks in the architecture of a terrorist-free—a paramilitary-free—Northern Ireland. It will allow the innate genius of the people of Northern Ireland to flourish in a way that it has never had the opportunity to do. The fact that the people have succeeded in so many cases is a great tribute to their individual genius.

The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) quite rightly and seriously said that there was no consensus on the definition of a victim. We have considered the matter in great depth this afternoon and that discussion will continue. However, I was cheered and encouraged to hear him press the section 75 point, and I thought I saw the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State indicate that he would look further at the matter. I would like to think that that is one of the positive things that we will take away from this afternoon’s discussion, but we have not heard the end of it. We have not heard the end of the implementation of the military covenant. When I look at the people sitting on the Treasury Bench opposite, I know that there are some powerful advocates for the covenant.

[Tom Elliott]

I hear what the hon. Gentleman says about the assertion of the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) about the definition of a victim, and he indicates that he has some sympathy with that. To be fair, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State and the Secretary of State also indicated their broad sympathy. However, as my late father used to say, “My pockets are full of that sympathy,” but it does nothing without action. I wonder when there will be action from the Government to do something about it.

[Stephen Pound]

We have heard advice on the Floor of the House from the Prime Minister’s mother, and we have now heard advice from the hon. Gentleman’s father. They are wise words. It is often said that warm words do not heat a cold house, and we need to see more action. The point that I was making is that I see people on the Treasury Bench who have a commitment to the implementation of the military covenant and experience of forces life, which gives me some cause for optimism.

The important, pertinent points made by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) resonated across the House and must be studied. When he talked about the nature of implementation within the Executive—obviously based on his own experience—he made some points that we cannot resile from and must discuss further. I love his expression about seeking a broader bandwidth. If he was an advertising copywriter, he would have made a fortune by now because he comes up with such wonderful expressions. I think we know what he is talking about and it is another thing to which we will have to return.

Forgive me for saying so, Mr Deputy Speaker, but the hon. Member for South Antrim (Danny Kinahan) made an emotional contribution, and quite rightly so. It came from the strength of emotion. He was absolutely right when he talked about people wanting to move on. He referred to the military being part of society. Let us not forget that, after all, the military are civilians in uniform. They are not a separate breed of people or race. They did not emerge from some test tube somewhere; they are civilians in uniform. Many of us have worn uniform and many of us might wear a uniform in the future. I hasten to add that Her Majesty would have to be very desperate to recall me to the colours. I believe that the Navy has moved on from sails since I left.

The hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) raised another point that we will have to consider again: national security. The sensitivity, particularly around the identification of agents, is intensely important, and I understand the strictures to which the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State referred.

This has been a positive experience overall. Some considerable differences have been ventilated, particularly on the issue of the Oath, which may well be reconsidered in another place. I cannot speak for the Government— I never could even when we were in government—but I would like to think that, with good will and a fair following wind, there may be the possibility of the matter being considered. The Bill, in its totality and its generality, has the support of the House. We believe that the establishment of the independent reporting commission and the changes to the working of the Assembly, most of which were not contentious, are steps of progress that show a better way forward and should be supported.

It has to be said that further measures must be adopted to tackle paramilitarism, and we have done that this afternoon. Everybody in every speech that has been made has expressed a detestation of those who look back to the days of blood, to the bloody wars and to the paramilitaries’ ruling the streets of Northern Ireland. We all know what a wonderful, incredible place Northern Ireland can be, what a place of stunning beauty and great initiative, entrepreneurship, imagination and wonderful people. When the dead hand of the paramilitaries is taken off, who knows what the people of Northern Ireland will achieve? Who knows how they might flourish even more?

I know that we all wish the Secretary of State and the Minister well in the work that they are doing, but I would like to think that everybody in the House also recognises the incredible contribution, sacrifices and devotion, as well as the sometimes unhappy and unwilling compromises, of politicians in Northern Ireland. We can be proud of the people who represent the people of Northern Ireland. This afternoon we heard much about them at their best.

Northern Ireland is continuing progress towards what we all want to see. A peaceful, prosperous future has taken another small step forward this afternoon. Let the words of the hon. Member for Strangford ring in our ears as we go forward towards those sunlit uplands and that peaceful, prosperous future.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.