Business of the House (Thursday)

Lord Brennan of Canton Excerpts

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

If the hon. Gentleman had wanted, he could have tabled an amendment to the motion and we could have debated it. No such amendment was tabled by any Opposition Member and I therefore assume that they are entirely content to stop at 5.30 pm.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

rose—

[Sir George Young]

I want to make a bit of progress and then I will give way.

When I announced the business for tomorrow at business questions last Thursday, no Member on the Opposition Benches raised objections to the timing or the process of the motions. The process that we are using for the debate tomorrow is set out in section 26 of the Higher Education Act 2004, under which the regulations are to be made. The Opposition will be familiar with that process, given that it is their Act that allows us to make these changes by secondary legislation.

[Kevin Brennan]

I am grateful to the Leader of the House for giving way. Why in the motion did he choose the time of 5.30 pm? It is clear that the House’s intention is that the point of interruption on a Thursday should be 6 pm. Why is it 5.30 and not 6 pm?

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[Kevin Brennan]

Is not my right hon. Friend’s point completely proved by the motion itself, in that the Government chose 5.30 pm as the time for the debate to end when the moment of interruption for a Thursday, voted for by this House, is 6 o’clock? Votes should take place after 6 o’clock on a Thursday, not before. That shows that the Government are not providing enough time.

[Hilary Benn]

I agree completely with my hon. Friend. That raises this question: what are the Government worried about in that extra half hour? The truth is that they do not want to listen to any more arguments. Given the problems that they have faced over their handling of tuition fees and their broken promises, that is not surprising. However, it is outrageous—I use that word deliberately—that the Government propose to allow the House of Commons only a few hours to discuss and consider the most fundamental change to student support and the funding of higher education that we have ever seen in this country. It is also breathtakingly disrespectful.

For proof of that, we need only to consider the fact that the debate on this business motion can continue until any hour. In other words, the Government are prepared to spend more time debating the allocation of time than they are prepared to give the House of Commons actually to debate, discuss and vote on their proposals.

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[Pete Wishart]

rose—

[Kevin Brennan]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The hon. Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne) seems to be turning into the hon. Member for Taunting. Is there anything that can be done to allow us to listen to the debate, rather than to his ranting?

[Mr Speaker]

I had been watching and listening closely, and I was conscious—I was about to comment on the fact—that a rather animated and protracted exchange seemed to be taking place between the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) and the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Whether some sort of private salon was taking place I do not know, but it must not do so. We must listen to the debate, so no taunting should take place at all. Let us listen to Mr Hilary Benn.

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[Mr Speaker]

I think that I will consider that to be a point of humour, because it certainly was not a point of order.

[Kevin Brennan]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. When I was at university, the ones letting off the fire extinguishers were in the Bullingdon club.

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I do not know about fire alarms, but people are certainly letting off steam. They have now done so, and we must return to the important subject of the debate on this relatively narrow motion.

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[Hilary Benn]

Indeed. Back Benchers have the opportunity tonight to decide whether the motion will be passed. That is why I hope that as many as possible will join us in the Lobby to vote it down.

[Kevin Brennan]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. As the Leader of the House has ignored the moment of interruption in his motion, by setting 5.30 as the time for the end of the debate tomorrow, is there any procedure by which a manuscript amendment could be tabled during the course of this debate, to extend tomorrow’s debate up until the normal moment of interruption, when any debate on a Thursday should end?

[Mr Speaker]

The short answer to the hon. Gentleman is that it is open to any Member to table a manuscript amendment. Whether the amendment is selected is a matter for the Chair. The Chair would consider a manuscript amendment if and when it were submitted. That is the situation.

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[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am grateful for that point of order, but rather than take up time in the debate I suggest that any Member who needs clarification on how to table a manuscript amendment should go to the Clerk to ask for guidance. Perhaps we can return to the debate.

[Kevin Brennan]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I also recommend “Erskine May”, which is lying on the Table and explains fully how to lay manuscript amendments—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Thank you—[Interruption.] Thank you very much, Mr Brennan. I am eternally grateful. I would like us to focus now on the debate.

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[Hilary Benn]

Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker.

[Kevin Brennan]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Will you clarify—this point is pertinent and not hypothetical—whether a manuscript amendment that is tabled tonight will be discussed tonight or tomorrow?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

If a manuscript amendment were tabled and it was selected for tonight’s debate, it would be debated tonight. As one has not been tabled, the hon. Gentleman is still asking a hypothetical question.

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[Hilary Benn]

I agree with my hon. Friend. People look to the House of Commons to speak for them and they look to us as Members to represent their views. They want us to consider in appropriate depth and with adequate care the proposals that come before us. The number of people who are concerned about what we will be asked to consider tomorrow should find expression in the number of voices that are heard in this Chamber. We will be denied that opportunity because of the inadequacy of the time that is being offered.

[Kevin Brennan]

Is my right hon. Friend aware that journalists in the Committee corridor last night were reporting that the Lib Dems had as much time as they liked in their meeting and could speak for as long as they wanted on the matter without any timetabling of it in private? However, in public and in this Chamber, they are seeking to limit the debate to a mere five hours. Is that not a very telling point?

[Hilary Benn]

It is. If such an approach is good enough for Liberal Democrats in private, it ought to be good enough for the House of Commons in public. We are the voice of the nation.

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[Mr Jones]

I note what my hon. Friend is saying but, again, I wish to stick to discussing this business motion. I would not want Mr Speaker to pull me up for being tempted to go down a path that would not be in order.

[Kevin Brennan]

My hon. Friend reminds us that we must return to the motion, so what does he think of the Government’s practice of setting the time for tomorrow’s debate to finish at 5.30 pm and ignoring the moment of interruption, which this House democratically voted to put at 6 pm on a Thursday?

[Mr Jones]

I am not sure whether my hon. Friend has got good eyesight or was reading my mind, because that was exactly the point that I was going to make next. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) says that he is “Mystic Kev”, and clearly he is. An important point is at issue, because when the Leader of the House made his opening remarks he was asked why the debate was going to finish at 5.30 pm and not 6 pm tomorrow and we are still waiting for an answer. That was the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) tried to tease out with his manuscript amendment. Clearly, Mr Speaker, you have ruled that that is not in order, but we have still not heard an explanation of why 5.30 pm was chosen.

We have seen a strange thing this week, because this motion allows us five hours for the debate tomorrow, yet a matter of a day ago a motion proposed that we have three hours for that debate. No explanation has been given of why two hours have suddenly been conjured up—I will allow people to intervene on this. If we can suddenly, in a day, conjure up two hours, why can we not conjure up more time, as is clearly needed for this vital debate?

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[Mr Jones]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I told the Whips tonight that I was giving up the opportunity to dine with people from north-east industry, so I have given up that very nice dinner and an opportunity to discuss with those individuals, who are very important to the north-east, higher education and other issues.

[Kevin Brennan]

The Government’s response to the debate is a key factor, is it not? If they had simply allowed the debate to extend to the normal moment of interruption on a Thursday, there would have been half an hour for them to respond, but as things stand, we will probably have only something like five minutes each at the end.

[Mr Jones]

I accept what my hon. Friend is saying, but I do not think that an extra half hour would give the House enough time to debate this issue. The words of the Leader of the House in his opening statement are important. As a reason why the statutory instrument needs to be rushed through this week, in a matter of five hours, he said—I wrote this down—that otherwise we would slow the process down, and that the fiscal position we are in is important. That exposes the truth of why this measure is being driven through. It is nothing at all to do with higher education or ensuring that Members can have a debate tomorrow. Rather than the Government thinking about the future of the country and its educational needs, they are saying that future generations will have to start paying now, to try to help them in the financial position in which they now find themselves.

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[Mr Jones]

I thank my hon. Friend for that very short intervention. No, I have not. As everyone knows, I am not the most technical person.

[Kevin Brennan]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is a matter of some great contention, and we know—indeed, you will be aware, Mr Speaker—that in the previous Parliament a disturbance during proceedings on the Hunting Bill debate caused the House to be suspended. In the unlikely and absolutely dreadful event of that being repeated tomorrow, would the five hours be protected, or would any suspension of the House eat into that time?

[Mr Speaker]

The short answer to the hon. Gentleman is that he is raising a hypothetical question, and my attitude is best encapsulated in the wise words of the late Lord Whitelaw, who famously said that on the whole he preferred to cross bridges only when he came to them.

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[Mr Jones]

It is not only the mood of the House: it is also the mood of the country. As with many things that this Government are doing, they are rushing things through. If we had pushed through legislation and ignored the House to this extent, we would have been rightly criticised. Sometimes we did not allow the House enough time for true debate and we were criticised in the press. The point has already been made that curtailing debate also leads to bad legislation, because the implications are not scrutinised either on the Floor of the House or in Committee.

[Kevin Brennan]

My hon. Friend knows that this House has taken a few knocks to its reputation in the last couple of years. Will not the public be staggered when they find out that not only will the debate tomorrow be limited to five hours, but that the Government are not even proposing that the House uses up the time that it normally has available on a Thursday and finishes at half-past 5 instead of 6?

[Mr Jones]

My hon. Friend has made that point eloquently for the third time. I know that repetition is important, but I do not want to repeat points that have already been made well. It is true that we still have not had an explanation for the finishing time from the Leader of the House.

In conclusion—[Hon. Members: “More!”] I could start from the beginning if people want me to do so—[Interruption.] The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, has been chuntering from a sedentary position all night. I do not know whether he actually wants to make a contribution to the debate tonight or tomorrow, but as he has given up his principles for his red box and car, perhaps he should explain why.

In conclusion, five hours is completely inadequate to discuss the important implications of the motion tomorrow. It will affect not only thousands of students who are now in university, but thousands in the future. It will change the relationship between the state and higher education. It is not acceptable to rush that motion through in five hours without any justification for why three hours was okay two nights ago and five hours is adequate now. I urge hon. Members, especially those Liberal Democrats who still have their backbones in place, to vote with us and object to this programme motion tonight.

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[Paul Farrelly]

I agree with my hon. Friend. The views of the Secretary of the Secretary of State for Education can perhaps be described as ultra logical. The Minister for Universities and Science is himself a logical man, but clearly when one admits that the fear of debt, however illogical, is a factor, we must have the time to inquire further into such policies.

[Kevin Brennan]

Is the point that my hon. Friend is making about the vagueness of some of the detail of the proposal not absolutely vital to the issue of having only five hours for the debate tomorrow? A debate in this House should not simply consist of the Government putting forward their proposals and ramming the measure through on a majority; it should consist of sufficient time for opposition and other Members to scrutinise and ask questions of the Government. That simply will not be able to happen tomorrow.

[Paul Farrelly]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Evidence shows—I hope to come on to some of the evidence—that in constructing any higher education package, it is important that the whole is taken together. The reality of politics means that if the fee levels are set in a five-hour debate tomorrow, those people who are concerned about student support and other elements of the package that may or may not count as deterrents will lose their leverage in future negotiations. My hon. Friend is absolutely correct.

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[Paul Farrelly]

You will be glad to hear, Mr Speaker, that I plan to conclude very shortly, to give more Members—including, I hope, Government Members—an opportunity to contribute to the debate.

[Kevin Brennan]

My hon. Friend mentioned that the Youth Parliament came here to debate the very same issue. Would it not be ironic if we spent less time in the House debating the subject than the Youth Parliament, because of the inadequacy of the motion?

[Paul Farrelly]

It would be not only ironic, but tragic and a dereliction of the House’s duty—and a bad example to the UK Youth Parliament.

As my hon. Friend encourages me to talk more about the UK Youth Parliament, I should say that we need time to consider the views of Sam Hatzigeorgiou, a 16-year-old, who says:

“I am seriously considering giving up any hope of university education. Please think about that before you vote.”

Why can we not have time to consider what Chloe Shaw, who is just 15 years old, says? She says:

“I will be 18 when the policy comes into action. I am so worried about the rise in tuition fees. I am only going to be applying for the cheapest universities. Shouldn’t I be making the most of my abilities, rather than going for the cheaper options?”

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[Mr Speaker]

I cannot adjudicate on that matter now, nor give any advance indication to the hon. Lady on how the debate will run. I say only that I am sure that Members will want to be courteous to each other. We are all concerned that right hon. and hon. Members from the Back Benches should have a chance to air their views. That is right and proper, but I shall be here and I attach great importance to these debates in the interests of all Members.

[Kevin Brennan]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. What was novel about the motion that we have just passed was not that it timetabled business—of course, that does happen—but that it timetabled business to come to an end half an hour before the moment of interruption. I cannot remember another occasion on which that has happened, but hon. Members might tell me that I am wrong. [Interruption.] I am sure that if the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Mr Randall) wants to say something further to my point of order, he will get to his feet in a minute. Will you advise me, Mr Speaker, on the best way to take this matter forward? Is it to write to the Procedure Committee? [Interruption.] I am not wasting time; it is the Government who are wasting time, because they said that they wanted to have that half an hour for voting. Voting should take place after the moment of interruption, and it always has. They have taken half an hour off tomorrow’s debate, and that is a serious matter.

[Mr Speaker]

What I say to the hon. Gentleman is twofold. First, he should not seek to continue the debate. Secondly, he rather anticipated my thoughts. If he feels strongly about this matter, a comprehensive memorandum from him to the Procedure Committee would be a very interesting memorandum to study. It would probably take him some little while to attend to it and I feel sure that that is just what he will want to do.

Points of Order

Lord Brennan of Canton Excerpts

Monday 6th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Let me anticipate what the right hon. Gentleman is likely to go on to say. I note the difference between the commitment that he is seeking and what the Home Secretary said, but as a very experienced Member of the House and former Minister, he knows that I am not responsible for the content of answers. What the right hon. Gentleman is about, of course, is trying to remind the House and his constituents of his dissatisfaction that his point was not answered as he would have wished. I think he has accomplished his objective, and we will leave it there.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can you confirm that it is in order during a Division for hon. Members to walk through both the Aye and the No Lobby if they seek to register an active abstention? For those who are not sure how to vote on Thursday in the tuition fees vote, would that not have the advantage of allowing them to say that they voted both for and against it, depending on their audience?

[Mr Speaker]

Yes.

Business of the House

Lord Brennan of Canton Excerpts

Thursday 25th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We must raise the ambitions of our young people. Following yesterday’s statement there will be an education Bill, which will give Members an opportunity to examine the issues in more depth.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

We need a debate on school sport partnerships. We know from his mother that the Secretary of State for Education hated games when he was at school, and avoided them as much as possible. Before we have that debate, will the Leader of the House persuade the Secretary of State to put on his tracksuit and perhaps a pair of trainers, apply some embrocation, get out into the real world—away from la-la land—with the school sport partnerships, and find out what great work they have been doing?

[Sir George Young]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made it absolutely clear yesterday that he was in favour of competitive sports and regretted the record of the outgoing Government in failing to promote them. If the hon. Gentleman is here on Tuesday he will have the opportunity to make a longer speech, which will be robustly rejected by whoever replies to the debate.

Business of the House

Lord Brennan of Canton Excerpts

Thursday 18th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

This is an issue of great concern to my hon. Friend’s constituents in Southgate, and he has raised it on several occasions. There was a debate on 16 November, which was replied to by my hon. Friend the Minister for Europe. The Government support a just and lasting settlement. That was an important manifesto commitment and a priority recognised in the coalition’s programme for government. Only a united island, within the European Union, will provide the long-term peace and security that all Cypriots deserve.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Under pressure, the Prime Minister has got rid of his vanity snapper, but we still need that debate on cronyism and appointments to the civil service. Did the Leader of the House see the letter to The Times on Monday from Sir Robin Mountfield, the former permanent secrecy to the Cabinet Office, in which he said:

“These provisions were intended to meet genuine and exceptional management needs, not to accommodate political and personal friends or associates”?

Finally, he said that

“the…principle of appointment on merit by fair and open competition…should not be allowed to be eroded, whether at these or…senior levels.”

Does the Leader of the House agree with Sir Robin?

[Mr Speaker]

It is not agreement or disagreement that is at the heart of business questions; what is at the heart of business questions is the request for a statement, and we will operate on the basis of that request having been made.

Business of the House

Lord Brennan of Canton Excerpts

Thursday 11th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

Any debate that we have about food labelling will be broad enough to encompass the specific issue that my hon. Friend has just raised. It strikes me as a suitable subject for a debate in Westminster Hall.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

We still need a debate about civil service recruitment. I have received a reply from the Cabinet Secretary, after raising that issue with the Leader of the House a couple of weeks ago, and the response makes it clear that the coalition Government have been trumpeting the fact that they have recruited fewer special advisers, while recruiting their cronies on two-year civil service contracts and sacking permanent civil servants. Is that not just immoral?

[Sir George Young]

No, what we are doing is exactly what the previous Government did. There are some 90 people employed on short-term contracts in the Cabinet Office, and more than 50 of those were put in place by the previous Government. What we are not doing, which the previous Government also did, is putting civil servants under the line management of special advisers such as Jonathan Powell and Alastair Campbell—something that is now outlawed under the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010.

Business of the House

Lord Brennan of Canton Excerpts

Thursday 4th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

My hon. Friend has a private Member’s Bill on that subject. The Government have no plans to have an earlier debate on IPSA, but he will know that IPSA is about to announce a review, and I hope that that will provide an opportunity for all hon. Members to submit their views. My view is absolutely clear: IPSA is there to sustain Members and to enable them to discharge their duties, and any barriers that get in the way should be removed.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Speaking of salons, is it true that No. 10 has also employed a hair stylist? Perhaps that is what the Government mean by cuts. But seriously, may we have a debate on civil service recruitment? It is not just the Prime Minister’s vanity snapper and film-maker that is at issue; I have had a letter outstanding to the Cabinet Secretary since September on the issue of the Culture Secretary bringing in people from outside the civil service at a time when civil servants are being sacked. We need a serious debate on the matter, and I need an answer to my letter.

[Sir George Young]

I have no knowledge of any hair stylist being employed at No. 10, and as the hon. Gentleman can see I would have no need of such a service. On the specific issue, he is entitled to a response to his letter. Any recruitment to No. 10 or, indeed, elsewhere in the public sector has to follow the due procedures.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Lord Brennan of Canton Excerpts

Monday 1st November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Kennedy]

I very much agree. A similar argument applies to the northern isles, and it is absolutely correct that these respective entities have been recognised in the Bill. That is why what is proposed for the Isle of Wight is such an affront. Although the numbers there are huge compared with the island communities that some of us represent, the sense of a natural, distinct identity in the Isle of Wight should surely be reflected in the attitude that officialdom takes. I do not claim to speak with insight for the people of the Isle of Wight, but if that is what people want—representing island communities such as Skye, I can well understand where they are coming from—who are we to pass legislation that thwarts them before they have even got off the starting block in making their argument?

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Do not the right hon. Gentleman’s amendments, which specify particular communities, whether Na h-Eileanan an Iar or Ynys Môn in Scotland and Wales respectively, show that the sensible, really flexible way forward would be to leave detailed considerations to the Boundary Commission and to give it the flexibility to act, rather include in the Bill specific communities that are to be protected? That is the difference between the limited approach taken by the Government and the extended approach taken by the right hon. Gentleman.

[Mr Kennedy]

That is a very good suggestion, and I am pleased that Labour Front Benchers are nodding in agreement. That suggestion is contained in the group of amendments tabled by my hon. Friends and me, which I mentioned.

In the Isle of Wight, in particular, there has been considerable uproar about these issues. The uproar is yet to come on the mainland highlands of Scotland, but when it does—I say this in all seriousness and I do make a party political point here— generation upon generation of communities that have stuck with the flame of Liberal tradition and history in the United Kingdom through thick and thin, when it has been all but extinguished in many other parts, will absolutely fail to comprehend why Liberal Democrats in government have put their name to such a measure, which takes no account of the very special peripheral circumstances of communities that have helped to maintain the Liberal cause over generations.

It is never too late for Governments to think again. This Government should think again, and my colleagues and I will divide the House to encourage them to do just that.

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[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

I wish to speak to my amendment 207, but first may I say how much I agreed with the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant)—I am surprised to be saying it, but he will be even more surprised—who spoke a great deal of sense about not making constituencies purely numerical compartmentalisations? This country has such a rich history of communities, and when it is a case of a few hundred here or a few hundred there, we ought to be more generous than this very rigorous and rigid approach. Many Government Members, as well as Opposition Members, feel that.

This matter ought to be looked at in a broader context and have more cross-party support. The one area on which I disagree with Opposition Members is the advantage to the Conservative party, which I think will be remarkably small.

[Kevin Brennan]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, particularly so early in his remarks. I have read his interesting amendment. Does he hope that the flexibility around historical county boundaries for which he is looking might find more favour in another place, if not with the Conservative Front-Bench team tonight?

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

It had occurred to me that I might suggest to my noble kinsman that he might wish to move a similar amendment. I look forward to doing that after this evening’s debate, if Her Majesty’s Government are not kind enough to accept my amendment.

I hope I do not bore the House by going on about history too much, but not far from here, outside the House of Lords, is a statue of Richard the Lionheart—Richard I—who was a great, noble king of England. It was in his reign that people first came from the shires to advise the king. His reign began in 1189—that means more than 800 years of counties being represented in Parliament. I am sorry to say that those Members who represent boroughs are very much the Johnny-come-latelies—they only got here in 1265. However, those of us representing counties have been here since the reign of Richard I.

I tabled my amendment because it seems a great shame to get rid of a long-standing historic tradition by accident, by a rule of the pen, by just doing something because it is there and it is tidy. I accept, as the hon. Member for Rhondda did, that we need to have a numerical approximation, but it does not need to be utterly rigid, and it ought, as far as possible, to respect our historical traditions.

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[Mark Durkan]

The hon. Gentleman has spelled out exactly what lies ahead with this Bill. There is uncertainty over the changes that will come with the introduction of this Bill but, in addition, in every single Parliament there will be an arithmetical play-off over who gets the last bundle of seats out of the 600. Does a party qualify under Sainte-Laguë for an extra seat, or does it end up losing a seat in Scotland, Wales or in Northern Ireland? The Boundary Commission will then be asked to deal with the consequences again.

[Kevin Brennan]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Government’s approach to this Bill, and the observations from some Government Members, profoundly misunderstands the nature of the United Kingdom? By equalising—except with some exceptions—the parliamentary constituencies, it completely ignores the fact that we are a united kingdom of nations of different sizes. In the United States, where there are equal congressional districts, the Senate balances the rights of the smaller states. There is no balancing within this Bill for the small nations, which could never ever outvote the interests of the largest nation in this United Kingdom.

[Mark Durkan]

I think I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is trying to make. Personally, I am no fan of the United Kingdom. I am not a comfortable subject of it, and, as far as I am concerned, my small nation is not represented in the United Kingdom. My small nation is divided between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. I have no doubt that that will be work for another Bill on another day.

I want to make the point that the amendment in respect of the distinct Northern Ireland quota has its own merits, even if the Government, wrongly, unwisely and unfairly combine to defeat the other sensible amendments that would entrust boundary commissions with their own discrete quotas.

The other key area in amendments 188 and 193, and particularly in amendment 193, is to do with ensuring that the Boundary Commission for Northern Ireland will not just have to respect carefully things like local government wards, as the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) has spelled out, which the Bill as it stood was already providing for, but will have to have regard to the fact that constituencies in Northern Ireland are also, absolutely by statute, constituencies of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Under the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and the Good Friday agreement, it was decided that parliamentary constituency boundaries would be exactly coterminous with the Assembly multi-seat boundaries, so changing the parliamentary boundaries means changing the Assembly boundaries. Under this Bill, they will be changed every five years, according to arithmetic dictated by the UK in general. We could end up with geo-sectarian issues as a result, and with the unsettling effect of boundary reviews throughout the life of every Assembly and every Parliament. Towns and villages will feel that, because of the boundary arithmetic, they are being pushed out of their natural hinterland and perhaps split between two Assembly constituencies, and that the natural base for their Assembly seat could be lost. There could also be implications for health care and other services.

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[Mark Durkan]

I thank my hon. Friend for that point. Like so many other hon. Members, he reinforces exactly the kind of malign scenario that will emerge as a result of the Bill. Boundary reviews will take place during the life of every Parliament, with an absence of local inquiries, if the Government get their way. Also, as we know from our discussions in Committee, the Secretaries of State will be able to make modifications when laying reports. Boundary commissions will consult first on one report, then on another. The third report will then be final, but the Secretary of State may lay it with modifications.

[Kevin Brennan]

Does my hon. Friend agree that an unforeseen consequence of this electoral hokey cokey, with villages and communities coming in and out of constituencies every five years, could be competition for additional casework between Members of Parliament, as happens under the additional Member system? It would be utterly unhealthy if a Member of Parliament were seeking to represent the area that he would be representing in the next Parliament rather than his present one.

[Mark Durkan]

I note the hon. Gentleman’s point. I am not sure that the public would object to lots of local representatives working hard for them and their interests, but I understand the complication that he alludes to.

There is a glaring absence of any reference to the Northern Ireland Assembly in the Bill. We have not even been consulted or communicated with about the process. I have tabled amendments that deal with that. Whatever the Government’s attitude to all the other very worthy amendments, I ask them to bear in mind that they are in serious deficit in the attention that they are giving to Northern Ireland.

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[Chris Bryant]

So far this evening, the Government have gained no supporters for their argument. I think that there is a good reason for that. The arguments presented by Members on both sides of the House—including the persuasive argument of the former leader of the Liberal Democrat party, the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Mr Kennedy)—can be summed up very simply as “This House does not believe in the Government’s construction of a mathematical exercise in order to create constituencies”. Everyone who has articulated an argument this evening has expressed the belief that, in the case of Cornwall, Scotland, the south Wales valleys or the whole of Wales, we need to ensure that minority voices are heard loud and clear in the House.

[Kevin Brennan]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Chris Bryant]

I will not, if my hon. Friend does not mind. I know that the Minister needs to be able to reply.

[Kevin Brennan]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. When you called the Front-Bench spokesmen, at least a dozen Labour Members were still waiting to speak. It is clear that not enough time has been allowed for the debate. Can anything be done to enable those Members to put their points on the record?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

That is not a point of order. The point about the amount of time allowed for the debate has been taken on board, but that is a decision for the Government rather than the Chair.

Business of the House

Lord Brennan of Canton Excerpts

Thursday 28th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

It is important to use careful language in the debate about housing benefit, and the use of phrases and words such as “social cleansing” or “Kosovo” in that regard is not appropriate.

I do not think that it is going to happen. The hon. Gentleman will know that, in many parts of the country, private sector rents are set to hit the cap. It follows that, in many parts of the country, when the cap comes down, so will the rents. There are discretionary grants, to which I have referred, to help families in his constituency who have difficulty with the social reform. Despite what he says about Westminster Hall, it is an appropriate forum in which to debate these issues. The Opposition have an Opposition day in a fortnight’s time and they are entitled to debate housing benefits, if that is their priority.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

May we have a debate on teaching George Orwell in our schools and particularly his essay “Politics and the English language”, so that pupils might be able to understand the double-speak of a Government who describe what is a real cut in school spending per pupil as a pupil premium?

[Sir George Young]

If the hon. Gentleman looks at the comprehensive spending review, he will see that there is a flat-cash settlement in terms of pupils, on top of which there is a pupil premium; that is in addition. He should look at what other Departments have had to do and at the plans that his own party had. Had it won the election, he would have found there were real cuts in that budget.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Brennan of Canton Excerpts

Monday 25th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

With the greatest respect to my hon. Friend, he is in a much better position than I am to ensure that more Select Committee reports are debated on the Floor of the House, because following the implementation of the Wright Committee, the days for those debates have been handed over to the Backbench Business Committee, on which he sits. The Committee has the freedom to decide whether to debate Select Committee reports or other matters; that power no longer rests with the Government.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

If more Select Committee reports are debated on the Floor of the House, can we avoid situations such as the one that occurred recently, when a Treasury Minister told the Public Administration Committee that he could not give the figure for compensation to Equitable Life policyholders because it had to be announced the following week in the comprehensive spending review, before leaking the information to the press that weekend? Could that be one way around this problem?

[Sir George Young]

I reject the hon. Gentleman’s implication that there was any impropriety in the discharge of information relating to Equitable Life. The figure was given in the CSR statement by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor last week.

Business of the House

Lord Brennan of Canton Excerpts

Thursday 21st October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

As always, I welcome my hon. Friend’s robust comments. We will shortly introduce a public bodies Bill following the statement that my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office made last Thursday. If my hon. Friend catches Mr Speaker’s eye during the Second Reading of that Bill, he may find an opportunity to develop at greater length the points that he has made.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

The Leader of the House made the very welcome statement that the statutory instruments will be laid before the Report stage of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, but he left two things out. First, can he confirm that he will be using the affirmative procedure for those statutory instruments? Secondly, given that they are statutory instruments consequential to a constitutional Bill about elections, will he be taking them here on the Floor of the House?

[Sir George Young]

I should like to reflect on the points that the hon. Gentleman has made and write to him.