Oral Answers to Questions

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As with any new Government, both parties in the coalition Government—we have not had a coalition Government in a long time—have had to adjust the way in which they are supported in government to make sure that we deliver in full on the coalition agreement to which I referred.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

5. What assessment he has made of the effect of introducing individual electoral registration on the completeness of the electoral register.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

The hon. Gentleman will know from listening to previous answers that we are taking a number of steps to ensure the completeness of the register, learning from the experience of the introduction of individual registration in Northern Ireland—including, for example, the carry forward of electors for a year—and looking at the data matching pilots to see whether they will be successful.

[Kevin Brennan]

Individual voter registration is worth pursuing only if, as well as making the register more accurate, it makes it more complete. I warned the Minister about this more than a year ago. Does he not realise that by combining this measure with a voter suppression policy such as not requiring people to collaborate with the electoral register, he is basically participating in the Florida-isation of UK electoral registers?

[Mr Harper]

That was not up to the hon. Gentleman’s usual standard—no, on reflection, I am afraid that it was. I made it clear from this Dispatch Box when I announced the policy that we are just as focused on completeness as on accuracy. As the Deputy Prime Minister set out, we are listening carefully to the responses to our consultation and to what was said by the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, and we will bring forward our proposals in due course.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I feel in a slightly invidious position having to answer that question while the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) is sitting next to me, because I know that he has an adjacent constituency. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) knows, this is simply not a matter for Ministers. We have legislated—[Interruption.] I know that the idea of an independent Boundary Commission is alien to the Labour party, but that is what is going to happen.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

T8. When a warning about the penalty was included on a letter to constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) in Rhyl West, the poorest ward in Wales, voter registration in that ward increased by 40%. If the Deputy Prime Minister really is a democrat, will he consider that startling statistic and make sure that there is not only a civic duty but a requirement for people to register to vote?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Only the hon. Gentleman thinks that you are a democrat by criminalising lots of people. Only the Labour party thinks that the solution to everything is to put more crimes on to the statute book. As I explained to him, the civic duty remains. It is not an offence at the moment not to register; it is an offence not to provide information where requested to do so.

[Kevin Brennan]

Which is the same thing, as the right hon. Gentleman knows.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Will he just listen? That offence will remain on the statute book.

Oral Answers to Questions

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Gillan]

My hon. Friend is right, and echoes what I have said on many occasions. I work as closely as I can with the Welsh Government and I encouraged them to introduce enterprise zones, but we had six months of wasted opportunities. There is every indication that the enterprise zones might look similar to those that have been announced across the border in England. Two tranches have been announced in England and just the one in Wales, but I am delighted that the Welsh Government have finally announced enterprise zones for Welsh businesses.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State is right to mention the Welsh rugby team and the way that it can highlight Wales. When the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom comes in and sits next to her later, for Prime Minister’s questions, will she ask him to put the Welsh flag up over No. 10 Downing street this weekend, as he did with the cross of St George for the England football team during the World cup? [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Hon. Members wish to hear the Secretary of State’s reply to this probing question.

Public Confidence in the Media and Police

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I am sure that the inquiry can look at that. If there is evidence of illegal activity, some very big questions have to be answered. I hope that the Leader of the Opposition will be asking those questions and making sure that he gets good answers.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Were there any meetings between Neil Wallis and Andy Coulson when Andy Coulson was working for the Prime Minister at No. 10 Downing street?

[The Prime Minister]

I do not have that information; I will have to get back to the hon. Gentleman. [Interruption.] Far worse would be to give an answer that could turn out to be inaccurate, so I will get back to him with that information.

Phone Hacking

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

That is a repeated call to the one made by the hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey). I think it is an issue for the Leader of the House to address; perhaps he can say something about it tomorrow at business questions. We want people to attend Select Committees. Obviously, we want to ensure that we do not ask people to do things that are desperately inconvenient, but if people give us the endless run-around, there should perhaps be some way through that.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Just to be absolutely clear, the Prime Minister said earlier that proprietors could be called to the inquiry. Will he confirm that if those proprietors are foreign citizens, they could be compelled to attend and give evidence, unlike with Select Committees?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman raises a good issue. I do not see why the answer to that should be no. If you own media in this country, then you should be able to be called under oath.

Oral Answers to Questions

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Wednesday 27th April 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

The national citizen service provides a fantastic opportunity for young people from different backgrounds to work together to make a positive difference to their communities. I am delighted that we are offering 11,000 places this summer in many locations throughout the country. I am also delighted that that scheme is coming to Lincoln, and that my hon. Friend is taking such an active interest in such positive opportunities for young people in his constituency.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

T8. What estimate have Ministers made of the cost of the VAT increase to charities?

[Mr Hurd]

VAT issues are obviously a matter for the Treasury, and I would refer that question to Treasury Ministers. As the hon. Gentleman knows—he is a former Minister—that is a long-standing issue for the sector. He will also be aware of a number of initiatives to look at how we can make the VAT regime more helpful.

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[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Q2. Is the Health Secretary’s job still guaranteed? He is over there, by the way.

[The Prime Minister]

The Health Secretary does an excellent job. Let me draw a little contrast—[Interruption.]

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Wednesday 16th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

I beg to move that this House insists on its disagreement with the Lords in their amendments 1 and 8, but proposes amendment (a) in lieu.

Yesterday the House debated whether to oppose including in the Bill Lord Rooker’s amendments specifying that if less than 40% of the electorate vote in the referendum the result should not be binding. We have accepted an amendment in lieu. We do not accept that there should be a threshold in the referendum, and the amendment does not propose one. It simply states that the Electoral Commission must publish information about the turnout. If we were simply to oppose Lord Rooker’s threshold amendment again without this amendment, and were their Lordships to reject our position, the rules on double insistence would result in the loss of the Bill. We have tabled our amendment to avoid that eventuality.

I explained in some detail yesterday why the Government disagreed with their lordships’ proposal, both on principle and on the basis of the practical difficulties identified by both the Government and the Electoral Commission in giving it effect. I said then that I considered those arguments compelling, and the House agreed. When the motion to disagree was voted on, it was carried by 317 votes to 247, a majority of 70. That was on the back of a conclusive rejection of the proposals for a threshold made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) on Report. I think that we made our view clear, and by a clear margin.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

I understand the Minister’s point about the technical reasons for the Government’s amendment, but does he not owe it to the House to explain what he considers to be the benefits of the amendment if we are to vote on it?

[Mr Harper]

If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I will give the details as I proceed with my speech. If he does not think that I have done so satisfactorily, he can intervene again. I should say at this point that, although I shall attempt to be generous in giving way, I also want to ensure that other Members have an opportunity to contribute to the debate, so I may not be quite as generous as I was yesterday.

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[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, because the threshold sets up an incentive for one side to campaign for people to stay at home. As democrats, we should all be arguing for people to turn out to vote, be it yes or no. That should apply no matter what side of the argument we are on, and Government Members have been very frank about the fact that we will be campaigning on different sides.

[Kevin Brennan]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Harper]

I have already given way to the hon. Gentleman.

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[Mr Harper]

Our system does not have a minimum turnout threshold for elections and we do not have a tradition of thresholds for the 10 referendums that have been held in this country. Only one of those referendums had a turnout threshold and its effect was to thwart the clearly expressed will of the people. It may have been something I agreed with, but it meant that that issue festered for another decade.

[Kevin Brennan]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

I have already given way to the hon. Gentleman and I am going to make some progress.

There are some perverse mathematical effects of such a barrier. As I said yesterday, this Lords amendment provides that if 39% of the electorate turned out the result would not be binding, even if 75% of those voting were in favour of change, whereas if 41% of people turned out the result would be binding, even if far fewer people actually voted in favour of the proposal. In the first scenario, 30% of the electorate might have voted for change but be denied it, whereas in the second only 21% might need to vote for AV to see it implemented. Why should that be the case? I have heard no arguments, either in this House or in the other place, to explain how that would be fair.

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[Kevin Brennan]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Harper]

I am not going to give way to the hon. Gentleman.

I know that some Members favour this Lords amendment because this referendum is binding, but the Government have made it very clear that we want to offer the people the chance to make a decision. If they make that decision, it would not be right for the matter to come back to this House and for us to say, “We have heard what you said and we are going to ignore it.” That would not be right, however much we might not like what the people have told us. We accept that when we stand for election and we should accept it in a referendum.

[Kevin Brennan]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

I am not going to give way.

The key arguments against the threshold remain as compelling as ever. I have addressed some of the points made by their lordships during their debate today. Although they are entitled to ask us to consider the matter again, I do not believe that the points they raised change the balance of argument.

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[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

rose—

[Kevin Brennan]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

I am just going to deal with the point the hon. Gentleman raised earlier. I am asking hon. Members on both sides of the House to disagree with amendments 1 and 8. In their place, we have proposed an amendment in lieu, which provides:

“Following the referendum, the Electoral Commission must—

(a) publish the most accurate estimate that it is reasonably possible to make of the turnout in each of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland”.

Information on turnout is useful and important; a turnout threshold is not.

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[Chris Bryant]

I knew the hon. Gentleman was going to make a silly point, because he made the same silly point earlier. We have to have elections to this House, and they will either be under the first-past-the-post system or, if the referendum question is carried, under AV. I therefore do not accept his argument. I also point out to him that I believe there will be very different turnouts in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland from that in England. That is why I have never supported holding the referendum on the same day as other elections there.

[Kevin Brennan]

To return to the amendment in lieu that the Minister has proposed, does my hon. Friend agree that it effectively constitutes a direct insult to the other House, first because of its puerile nature and the fact that it is totally unrelated to the amendments from the other place, and secondly because of the Minister’s cursory explanation of it, which gave the game away?

[Chris Bryant]

My hon. Friend is, as always, spot on, and I will come to the Government amendment in lieu after I have made one significant point. Implementing referendums is fundamentally dangerous. All too often in other democracies, such referendums have been a way of circumventing the process of parliamentary democracy. That is a particularly dangerous way of doing business under coalition Governments. I do not believe that implementing referendums is a good idea, except for when there is a settled constitutional view that has been established on the basis of consensus, which is certainly not the situation with the AV referendum.

Everybody has a threshold in their own mind, but the truth is that the Government are proceeding as they are because they know perfectly well that if they were to introduce a stand-alone Bill to introduce the alternative vote, it would not be carried in the House or in the House of Lords. That is the profound danger with the way in which the Government are trying to proceed.

--- Later in debate ---

The question that I originally asked those on the Labour Front Bench was about the no figure at which they thought there was legitimacy in the number of those who had voted. I am glad that the Labour Front-Bench team changed its view on that. I am grateful to the noble Lord Rooker for his amendment. I am grateful to those Conservatives, many of whom I have served with and disagreed with over the past 30 years, who stood up and were prepared to be counted. It is appalling that the constitution of Britain is held in the hands of so few people, determined by a golden image, the Liberal-Conservative coalition agreement. The measure does not even reflect what was contained in that agreement, yet we are meddling with our constitution. I urge the House to accept what the Lords have said in their reasoned thoughts.

[Kevin Brennan]

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), I support AV and will vote yes in the referendum.

Hon. Members might wonder about the Minister’s desperate desire to sit down without explaining the amendment that he is asking us to send back to the House of Lords. He knows that in the other place Members rightly think that this House has not properly considered the matter, not least because he hogged all the time yesterday when he gave us an hour for debate. Now we have a mere hour to do the same, and many hon. Members want the opportunity to speak. We still have not considered the matter fully and had a full and proper debate in the House.

[Mr Straw]

Picking up the point made by the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), does my hon. Friend accept that the coalition agreement, or the needs of the Liberal Democrats, has undermined the traditional relationship between this place and the other place? In every previous example that I can think of when we were in government, there would have been a compromise in such a situation. That was the case scores of times, but Ministers lack any authority to grant a compromise.

[Kevin Brennan]

My right hon. Friend is right. I shall come to that point.

The Minister is still trying to obfuscate over the threshold and suggest that in some way it would negate the proposals in the Bill. What is unusual about the proposed referendum is that the Government are making it binding. Normally under our constitution, referendums have been advisory to Parliament, not binding in their outcome, and that includes the devolution referendums that were mentioned. The difference in threshold in the Scotland and Wales Bill back in 1979 was that it required 40% of those voting to vote in a certain way.

All the amendment does is say that if 40% of people fail to vote in total in the referendum, Parliament should reconsider the matter. That is an entirely different and reasonable position and in keeping with the traditions of our constitution that referendums are advisory and not binding, particularly when turnout is so low.

The amendment that we are sending down to the House of Lords is an insult to the other place. The Minister’s puerile explanation of it and the cursory way he dealt with the amendment that he is now asking us to vote for was a complete insult to our intelligence and that of the public.

I am afraid that when one lifts a stone in this place, procedurally what one sees underneath is sometimes quite unpleasant. Constitutionally, the Minister had to table an amendment, but instead of putting down a serious amendment that attempted to meet the House of Lords somewhere along the line of compromise, he tabled the parliamentary equivalent of a colouring-in book; he had to fill it in with something and so produced this puerile and meaningless amendment. It is an insult to the other place and to our intelligence. They sit there on the Front Bench, hairy man and smooth man, abusing our constitution. The Government should try to meet the other place somewhere on the spectrum of compromise. That would have been the reasonable thing to do and in line with our constitution.

As someone who will vote yes to AV in the forthcoming referendum and encourage as many people as possible to vote, I think that the idea that this House should not even have the constitutional right to look at the outcome of the referendum if only a very small number of people vote is an insult to democracy.

[Mrs Laing]

The arguments of Lord Lamont and his colleagues in the other place are absolutely right, as was everything the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) said this evening; I would repeat them in my remarks, but time will not permit me to do so. Sadly, those two rights are incompatible, because the choice before this House this evening is no longer about AV referendums and thresholds. I hate AV and do not want this £100 million referendum. I have always been in favour of a threshold and have said so many times in this House, but that is not the choice before us.

Sadly, the choice before us is between a Labour Government who ruined this country’s economy over 13 years and a coalition Government between the Conservatives and the Liberals that will give the country the stability it needs to recover from the dire economic situation. This referendum on a simple majority, which is stated in the coalition agreement, is a high price to pay for that stability. I, for one, agree to pay it with a very heavy heart.

European Council

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Monday 20th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

This is an argument that we can win and have got to win in Europe. We now have like-minded Governments who want to see completion of the internal market, progress on services and progress on Doha, with countries like the Netherlands, Finland and Germany all wanting to see a more open-market Europe. We have to push this very hard, because it is the growth agenda. Clearly, fiscal stimulus is not available to Europe because everyone has such large budget deficits. The best stimulus that we could give to the European economy and our economy is to make these structural changes.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Do I take it from the Prime Minister’s statement and the facility that he has shown in his answers for using Euro-jargon that he has gone native on Europe?

[The Prime Minister]

I am very sorry—I will do my best. It is extremely difficult when there is a mechanism, a facility, and article 122, which used to be article 100 before it was changed by QMV in the Nice treaty. [Interruption.] There is also the recital, and as I said earlier, I am not going to sing. There is a lot of junk that you have to mug up on, but the basic principles are simple—get in there, stand up for your country, and do a good deal.

Departmental Business Plans

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Monday 8th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Letwin]

First, I should welcome the welcome. As I think the right hon. Gentleman knows, I am one of the longest-term proponents of consensus not only between members of the coalition but across the whole House. If the right hon. Gentleman is in effect saying that the Opposition will now back the general principle of having a clear timetable for actions, input measures, outputs—

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Targets?

[Mr Letwin]

No, not targets.

[Kevin Brennan]

Milestones?

[Mr Letwin]

Mr Speaker, perhaps you will forgive me if, to avoid further confusion in the hon. Gentleman’s mind, I explain the difference between a target and a milestone. A target is an effort by a Government, of which there were many under the previous Government, to determine what the whole of the public service would achieve through micro-management. Such targets were often not met. What we are talking about are actions that lie under the direct control of Government and which it is absolutely right that we should manage ourselves.

To return to the point I was trying to make, if the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) is welcoming the idea that we should set these things out clearly and he is going to sponsor that as an approach to government, that would be in the interests of the nation, because we could continue that process over many years and that would be a huge advance.

The right hon. Gentleman asked whether we can achieve a power shift if we do not do certain things, and he mentioned citizens talking about policing with police officers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Letwin]

I totally agree with my hon. Friend. It is all about people and the choices that they make. The fundamental failing of the method of doing business that prevailed for many years was not that it was ill-intentioned, because it was well intentioned, nor that it lacked energy, because it had a good deal of energy, but that it did not look into the reaction one can get from individuals when one does certain things in relation to them. This whole programme is founded on the presumption that when we trust people and give them power and make them accountable, they do the right thing, and that is what we are trying to do here.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his statement, but will he have it translated into plain English and place a copy in the Library of the House? A milestone tells someone how far they have to go to reach a target destination, even if it is on a moveable horizon.

[Mr Letwin]

The hon. Gentleman’s plain English is wonderful to behold. I do not think that anyone has ever accused me of being any good at speaking English [Laughter.] I do not intend to try to cure my ways now. I am trying to assist this Government to carry out the most important programme of structural reform that has happened in this country for many years so that they can improve our public services and make life better for our citizens, which matters an awful lot. The point about horizon shift is that it is serious. The previous Government caught themselves repeatedly on the hook of trying to achieve a result on Wednesday that they could show the public by Thursday. Often, the upshot was to achieve nothing whatsoever. We are saying that we will try to achieve things in the long term without trying to achieve publicity goals on the way, which is an important change.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd November 2010 Commons Chamber

There is one non-Government amendment in the group —amendment 222—and it might help if I say a few words about it. It is proposed by the nationalist parties and was tabled by the hon. Members for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) and for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards). It would require the UK Government to pay for the cost of combining the referendum and the Scottish parliamentary election on 5 May. We do not consider that necessary because the UK Government are already responsible for funding both polls. Funding for the referendum and the Scottish parliamentary elections already comes out of the Consolidated Fund and is borne by the UK taxpayer. Combining the polls also makes sense, because potential savings of £30 million may be shared between the referendum and the other poll. I will listen very carefully to the arguments of the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar, but having looked at the amendment with great care I am so far unconvinced of its necessity. I urge the House to accept the Government amendments.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

I notice that the instructions set out in amendment 156 ask voters to complete the ballot paper and form “in black ink”. Is the same instruction in the original Bill, and by building this provision directly into the Bill would we invalidate the ballot papers or forms of voters who chose to use another colour of ink?

[Mr Harper]

The proposed forms are set out in the Bill, but some changes are necessary to reflect the changes in the election orders. I have the provision in front of me, and it says:

“Please write clearly in black ink.”

We had this debate earlier and I have said that if a clear intention has been set out by the voter, the returning officer—or, in the case of the referendum, the counting officer—will allow the vote. The view is usually taken that voters should be included rather than excluded. Clearly, the instruction is intended to make it as easy as possible to read the votes.

[Kevin Brennan]

I appreciate that. The Minister might be able to elucidate later whether the requirement for black ink was part of the original instruction. My fear is that when something is written directly on the face of a Bill, it is sometimes open to a more literal interpretation than the Minister has indicated would be the normal practice. If not now, perhaps he could clarify the point later.

[Mr Harper]

All the forms for elections are usually set out in secondary legislation, but we have set them out in primary legislation. The legal effect, however, would not be different. Another provision we adopted earlier to make the forms more understandable and accessible to disabled people was to allow the Electoral Commission to vary not the ballot paper, but the forms, to make them easier to use. If the Electoral Commission felt at a later stage that any of the forms were difficult for people to use, it would be able to amend them. As I said, however, that does not apply to the ballot paper.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

In black ink or any other colour. Instead I hope that I shall be able to elucidate the position for both hon. Gentlemen at the end of the debate.

[Kevin Brennan]

I do not want to push the point too far, but it is a serious point. Normally, people are issued with a pencil at polling stations. Given that, as the Minister has confirmed, the “black ink” instruction did not appear in the original version, I am intrigued that it has suddenly found its way into this version. Will people be required, or instructed, to use black ink at polling stations? I fear that that could lead to unnecessary confusion: that is the only point I am making.

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[Chris Bryant]

My hon. Friend, and near neighbour, is absolutely right about that. Interestingly, the Scottish Executive have made direct representations to the Secretary of State for Scotland about the statutory instruments, as has the convener of the Local Government and Communities Committee in the Scottish Parliament. So it was a bit disappointing to see the reply from the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland , which said:

“I would however like to personally reassure you that Scotland Office officials are working closely with the Cabinet Office; the Electoral Commission; the Interim Electoral Management Board for Scotland; and electoral administrators to ensure that both the referendum and the Scottish Parliament election will run smoothly on 5 May next year.”

I do not think that that represents the respect agenda originally referred to by the Prime Minister, and it does not really represent new politics either. I fully understand that the hon. Members for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) and for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) complained bitterly about the way in which we introduced legislation, but introducing it in a way that does not allow amendments to be properly considered in a timely fashion or in the proper order is a ludicrous way of doing business.

[Kevin Brennan]

rose—

[Chris Bryant]

I will give way, but I am keen to move on.

[Kevin Brennan]

My hon. Friend knows it is unwise not to give way to me, because it might end up in a point of order. I have described this Bill as a Wallace and Gromit Bill because of the way in which, rather like Gromit in “The Wrong Trousers”, the Government are laying down the track as they go along. Indeed it is worse than that, because this group of amendments is consequential on a set of statutory instruments that this House has not yet even considered. If that is not getting things back to front, I do not know what is.

[Chris Bryant]

I do recall my hon. Friend raising the matter of “The Wrong Trousers” and Wallace and Gromit, but I think his metaphor does not work in this case. Gromit was laying down pieces of track ahead of him, whereas the Government are laying down pieces of track behind them—pieces of track that they have not been over; this is putting the horse before the cart before the horse before the cart. There is a real problem in the process that the Government have adopted, and I very much hope that their lordships will want to examine it carefully.

What is also wrong is that because the Government have tabled 28 pages of amendments that we have to debate on Report, they have had to set aside a chunk of time for us to do so. That has been done not because the House wanted it, or to bring about greater consensus on the Bill, but to meet the Government’s own business needs, and as a result of their own haste. The fact that we have not had a single moment’s debate about the decoupling of seats in the Welsh Assembly and their coterminosity with Westminster seats is a disgrace. If, as we had requested, a knife had not been put in yesterday night’s proceedings, it would have been possible for us to have debated that matter now, rather than the measures that we have to debate at this point.

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[Mr MacNeil]

My “all-points Celtic” is checking out. It was also Scotland. It was a Celtic issue, and it hit across the nations and a region of the UK—he says, looking around him! However, there are very serious and important points here, and I hope that the Government will listen. At this late stage, it is not too late.

[Kevin Brennan]

It might not have been entirely inappropriate for the hon. Lady to intervene, because, as I recall from my visit to Corby as a young man, most of it was populated by Scots and Welsh people, who were there to set up the steelworks at the time.

On the date and the combination of polls, however, is it not also an own goal on behalf of the Government and, particularly, the Deputy Prime Minister? He is demotivating those electoral reformers among us who would have been prepared to go out alongside colleagues from other political parties to campaign for the alternative vote. We will now campaign with our parties to help our Welsh Assembly colleagues get elected, and not devote the energy that we otherwise would have done to the Deputy Prime Minister’s cause?

[Mr MacNeil]

The hon. Gentleman is bang on. The Deputy Prime Minister, not content with having some opposition to his aspirations for a change in the voting system, has moved on to look for even more opponents to changes in the voting system, and he has succeeded in that end, because he has absolutely demotivated those people who will have greater priorities when the day comes in May. Their priority will not be the voting system for elections to the UK Parliament, and that is where the mistake lies.

Again, I ask the Minister to speak to his friends in the other place, because that might make quite a difference. Of course, there are those who might feel that there are elements within the governing coalition who are happy to see a demotivated support force for a change in the voting system. I will leave that question hanging.

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[Geraint Davies]

I know that you have read the report a number of times already for your bedtime reading, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I do not want you to fall asleep again.

In conclusion, a combination of polls will be expensive and confusing, and will undermine democracy and lead to legal challenge. The Bill does not factor in the problems of having postal votes for some votes and not for others, the different systems superimposed on the same day, and the fact that the media might dwell on one election rather than another, thereby undermining the ability of local parties to send discrete messages to discrete audiences. It is a sad day for democracy.

[Kevin Brennan]

I will attempt to be reasonably concise. It is worth returning to the amendments, which are about the combination of polls, and reminding ourselves—and the literally dozens of people who I am sure are still watching on the BBC Parliament channel, after our deliberations so far—why we are discussing combining the referendum in the Bill with the Welsh Assembly, Northern Ireland Assembly, Scottish Parliament and local government elections.

The only reason we are doing that is down to one man, who has been completely invisible during our deliberations, namely the Deputy Prime Minister. The only reason we are discussing this issue is that the Deputy Prime Minister is convinced that his best chance of winning the referendum on the introduction of the alternative vote will be if it takes place on the same day as the elections to the devolved Assemblies and the local government elections. As the amendments in the group show, this is not a matter of finance, although that argument is sometimes put forward. It is nothing to do with that; rather, it is entirely to do with a belief that the alternative vote is more likely to be supported in a referendum if it is held on the same day as those other elections.

In that sense, this is one of the most surreal debates in which I have ever participated in the House of Commons, because the Deputy Prime Minister will not come here himself to make that point. Instead he sends along the Parliamentary Secretary, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), who comes along to make the case, even though he does not himself believe that the alternative vote should be passed into law. In fact, this is the second time in one day that he has had to come forward to promote Liberal Democrat policy in the House. After the duffing up that he got in the Tea Room after the first time, I hope that he is a bit safer now.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. We are talking about the combination of polls, not the Deputy Prime Minister. I would be grateful if the hon. Gentleman now directed himself to the amendments before us.

[Kevin Brennan]

Of course, Mr Deputy Speaker. The point that I was making was that the very reason for the amendments that are before us, about the combination of polls, is to do with the beliefs of one person, who has put up the Minister, as it were, to come along and defend those amendments.

A lot has been made of the potential confusion that could arise. I take the point made by the hon. Member for Corby (Ms Bagshawe), whom I commend for taking a lot of interest in these proceedings. I take her point about American elections; in fact, my wife is an American citizen and still votes in American elections. We get the very lengthy ballot papers that people receive through the post in California, and which do indeed combine polls on many different issues on one day. I am less disturbed by my constituents’ ability to distinguish between different issues on the same day than I am by the contempt that the Government have shown. I am disturbed by the contempt shown for the devolved Administrations by he who must not be named—I am not going to mention his name again, for fear of upsetting you, Mr Deputy Speaker—when, although he represents a party that claims to be a party of devolution, he completely ignores the wishes of the devolved Administrations in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

Like my hon. Friend, I think my constituents will be able to cope with the technical difficulties of dealing with two or three ballot papers on the same day. The problem is not confusion on the part of electors, but that the focus of political debate in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will inevitably be on what will be general elections in those countries. That is what will distort the reality, not the two votes on the same day. Newspapers and the media will focus on the general elections, not on the alternative vote referendums, so that matter will not receive the sort of scrutiny that it should.

[Kevin Brennan]

My hon. Friend is entirely right, and that point has been clearly made during the debate. We know that that is the reality. Debates on national elections in Scotland and Wales, and elections in Northern Ireland, will be swamped in the general UK media by discussion about the referendum on the alternative vote.

The hon. Member for Corby was right constitutionally and technically to say that such matters, with the exception of a couple, are reserved. First, the UK Government have generally agreed through their various protocols with the devolved Administrations to consult on matters directly affecting them, and protocols exist in the civil service to enable those consultations to take place, but they are being abandoned because of the desire of he who shall not be named to meet the deadline to enable the measure to be rushed through.

[Ms Bagshawe]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Kevin Brennan]

I will give way in a moment, but first I want to make my second point, about why I think the hon. Lady is wrong. One of the first actions by her leader, when he became Prime Minister—many of us thought it was commendable at the time—was to visit the devolved Administrations and to make it clear that the interaction between the UK Government and those devolved Administrations would be based on respect. In this instance, the Government have fallen far short of the Prime Minister’s aim and his promise at that time.

[Ms Bagshawe]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his generous comments earlier. It is regrettable that the catchphrase—the respect agenda—about which we hear so much from Opposition Members, does not seem to work two ways. The matter is a devolved one for the United Kingdom Government, and Opposition Members have failed to realise how strongly voters in England feel about the democratic deficit to which they are subjected, which the Bill aims to remedy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Brennan]

We have found out what respect means to the hon. Lady. For me it means having mutual respect, and when the previous Administration offered devolved government to people in England, they turned it down. It is a matter of respect that if people in England do not want devolved government, that is a matter for them. My point is that the Prime Minister took the trouble to visit the capitals of Wales and Scotland, as well as Belfast, to talk to the devolved Administrations. He promised a relationship of respect, despite the fact that the Conservative party was originally vehemently opposed to devolution, and said that things had changed and the relationship was new. However, because of the needs of he who shall not be named, the Government had to abandon that respect agenda and provide for the combination of polls.

[Mark Durkan]

I thank my hon. Friend for emphasising the principles of the respect agenda concerning the devolved Administrations, but it should also apply to this Chamber. Is it not odd to have a Deputy Prime Minister who relies on deputies to appear in the Chamber more than he does?

[Kevin Brennan]

I fear that I will test your patience, Mr Deputy Speaker, if I make a further reference to he who shall not be named, but clearly my hon. Friend is absolutely correct. My point, Mr Deputy Prime Minister—I mean Mr Deputy Speaker; that was a Freudian slip, and he shall be named after all. My point, Mr Deputy Speaker, is that many Labour Members are favourably inclined towards electoral reform, but others are not. Many of us would have looked forward to the opportunity—it was in our manifesto—of putting the question to the British people and allowing them to decide in a clean, clear referendum for which that was the sole focus of the discussion. That could easily have happened, and that is exactly what should have happened.

As that did not happen, many of us who are favourably inclined towards electoral reform are severely demotivated in terms of putting our weight behind what seems to be a venture with no respect for those of us who might support that agenda. That may suit many hon. Members on both sides of the House who do not agree with electoral reform, but I think it is a terrible shame, because we will all devote our energy to the important national elections in the devolved Administrations, and the referendum will be ignored during those elections. I shall vote in favour of the alternative vote in the referendum, but I fear that it will be lost. Boy, won’t that be awkward for he who must not be named!

[Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)]

I want to speak about the complexity, confusion and unfairness that have so often been referred to in this debate, and that comes from the perspective of having suffered the ignominy of a proposition for regional government for the north-east of England, which I vehemently supported, being lost in a referendum, almost six years ago to the day. Part of the reason for that, although not the only one by any stretch of the imagination, was the fact that the question of regional government for the north-east of England was combined on the same ballot paper with a question about what form of unitary local government was wanted.

Although 70% of electors in the north-east of England were not subject to any change in local authority, the then Office of the Deputy Prime Minister sent out a six-page supplement to every voter in the region, four pages of which were about local government reorganisation. Many of my constituents rang me asking whether the proposal would mean the end of Gateshead council. It had no impact on Gateshead council, other councils in Tyne and Wear, or councils in Teesside, but the six-page document had four pages about local government reform, and of course the whole concept of regional government for England was lost at that stage.

When addressing the issue of complexity, confusion and fairness, we must look at the coalition Government’s stance. They have repeatedly told us that their actions in passing legislation and making ministerial judgments must pass the acid test of fairness. So is the proposed measure fair or is it not? In fact, the junior coalition partners have almost made it their mantra that they will support their senior coalition partners as long as measures are seen to be fair. The Bill clearly fails that test in many ways, yet the “fairness party”, as the Liberal Democrats see themselves, is still voting in the Lobby to support it—with a handful of notable exceptions on some clauses and amendments. Citizens’ capacity to vote in a referendum is vital, and part of the unfairness to which I refer is the fact that the arbitrary nature of the Government’s proposal disregards the geography and natural togetherness of local communities. I envisage that virtually every constituency in the country will be subject to change—with the exception, of course, of the two constituencies exempted because of their peripheral geography, and because they encompass so many islands.

It is difficult to fathom a scenario in which, in order to meet the twin criteria of ending up with exactly 600 constituencies that must all comprise exactly 76,000 electors, plus or minus 5%, there will be knock-on effects across county boundaries and even regional boundaries—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

They are about different things; they are not linked. [Interruption.] No, the later amendment is about how the AV rules would work, whereas this one is about the working of the elections taking place next year. They are separate issues.

I was also asked about the use of black ink on the postal voting statement. Because it is for the postal voting statement, it is not relevant to the forms used in the polling station. My understanding and my advice is that the use of black ink is to make the document easier to verify when it is checked and scanned when the postal vote identifiers are being checked. I will make further inquiries, however, and write to the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) if this proves not to be the case.

[Kevin Brennan]

Will the Minister confirm now—or, if not, later in that letter—whether, if an elector does not use black ink, the postal vote will not be invalidated?

[Mr Harper]

I will look further into that. The real issue is the ease with which returning officers can validate the identifiers. I understand that, where that is not able to be done automatically, it means in practice that it has to be done manually. As I say, however, I will check, write to the hon. Gentleman, copy it to the hon. Member for Rhondda and place a copy in the House of Commons Library.

The hon. Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) said that there were a significant number of amendments. That is true, although as I think the hon. Member for Rhondda acknowledged in his remarks, a lot of them are very technical. They consist of replacing 2007 with 2010, for example, and use straightforward language to reflect what has been changed. The issues of substance, particularly those affecting Northern Ireland—where significant changes have been made to postal voting—have been discussed.

The hon. Member for Foyle raised a number of issues. He asked whether the chief electoral officer could still combine working on local and Assembly elections. Yes, he can. I was asked why the chief counting officer and the Northern Ireland chief electoral officer need to agree on the issue of the receipt of postal ballot papers. The chief counting officer co-ordinates the referendum nationally, so he has the general power of direction. The chief electoral officer of Northern Ireland obviously knows that situation on the ground, so it makes sense for them both to agree on whether to issue combined postal votes. The same position applies in the rest of the United Kingdom. We were urged at an earlier stage of our debate to make this mandatory, but combining the postal ballot papers would sometimes not be practical. Legislating for something that proves not to be practical is not very sensible.

The hon. Member for Foyle also made a point about amendment 18. My advice is that it is not intended to—and, we understand, it does not—change the position on the ability of the Northern Ireland Assembly to change the date. He raises a good point, however, and if he is concerned about it, it is worth my reflecting on it further. I will do so and write to him when I have thought more about it. I repeat that it is not the intention to change the position and we do not believe that it does. The point is nevertheless worth dealing with, and I will write to the hon. Gentleman, if that is acceptable.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Laing]

We have had many, many hours of debate on this Bill— not enough, some would argue. Unfortunately, there are parts of the Bill that have not been reached and not been examined, for various reasons. The other day I found a quotation in one of those amusing books that said: “Laws are like sausages. It is better not to see them being made.”

[Kevin Brennan]

Bismarck.

[Mrs Laing]

I believe it probably was Bismarck. If ever that were true, it is true of this Bill. However, this is also a necessary Bill. I said at the beginning that I appreciated why we had to have it and that I would support it, and I will continue to do so.

The Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform did its best, on a rushed timetable, to perform what legislative scrutiny of the Bill we could. On behalf of the Committee, let me say that I hope that our reports and investigations, and the evidence that we have made available to Members has been useful in informing some of the debates that have taken place. While mentioning the Committee, let me say that the Chairman, the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), will be sad to have missed this part of the proceedings on the Bill, just as he has had to miss many of the Committee’s sittings, because he has been unwell. I am sure that the House will join me in wishing him a speedy recovery, although he is not seriously ill, so I believe that he will be back soon—it is okay, I should tell Opposition Members that he will not be missed for too long. The Committee has done its best to help the House to consider this Bill properly.

The second part of the Bill is excellent—the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) will not be surprised to hear me say that. It is correct that we should at last grasp the difficult nettle of the composition of the House of Commons. It is correct that we should reduce the number of Members of Parliament to the perfectly round and reasonable figure of 600. It is correct that this House and this Parliament should make that decision, as it is doing this evening. It is also correct and inarguable that every constituency in the United Kingdom, whether in Scotland, Northern Ireland, England or Wales, that sends a Member to this United Kingdom Parliament should be of equal size.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Laing]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point, but it does not change my arguments about the Bill. I appreciate his point, but I still say that we should have a coalition in order to provide the stability that the country needs in the aftermath of Labour’s economic disasters. It is therefore necessary to have this Bill and to have a referendum.

It is a great pity that the referendum is to be held on the same day as other elections. We have heard many very well put arguments, particularly from Members from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, about why the referendum should not take place on the same day as their national elections. Nor should a referendum go ahead without a threshold. That could result in a vote on a derisory turnout of some 15% changing our constitution. That is quite simply wrong, but I realise that the Government are not going to accept that argument because, once again, these provisions are in the coalition agreement, by which we are bound.

[Kevin Brennan]

Does the hon. Lady acknowledge that the date of the referendum is not set in stone in the coalition agreement, and that it is simply a part of the Bill? Does she also agree that the Deputy Prime Minister’s desire to maximise the chances of winning the referendum by holding it on that date could well backfire on him, because of the manner in which the Bill is demotivating many of us who are in favour of electoral reform but who have consistently been appalled by the way in which it has been railroaded through, against the wishes of the devolved Administrations?

[Mrs Laing]

Yes, I entirely accept the hon. Gentleman’s point. He is totally correct. The fact is that some of us have tried, in all good faith, to improve the Bill, but we have failed to do so. On those matters of principle, we now have a Bill in more or less the state that it was in when it first came to the House. I must not presume what might happen in another place, but let us assume that we will now have to go ahead with a referendum on the same day as the elections in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and some local elections in England. The turnout for the referendum could be derisory, so it would not have much validity. However, I am now sure of one thing, and the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) has just reinforced my point. As this argument has gone on in the country and the media over the last few months, it has become clear—and it will become even clearer—that the British people will not be duped into voting for a voting system that is representative neither of a fair first-past-the-post system, nor of the sort of proportional representation seen in some countries, which I do not like, although I agree it has some validity. The system we will be voting on will be neither one nor the other—and I do not believe that the British people with their good sense will vote for it.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill (Programme) (No. 4)

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Monday 1st November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

The time that has been given to debate the Bill overall is inadequate, as is the time set out in today’s programme motion. The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) was absolutely right to point out the lack of time that has been granted to discuss the Welsh aspects of this Bill and, in particular, the intransigent refusal to grant any time to the Welsh Grand Committee process. That is leading to a “bring back John Redwood” campaign in Wales, because nobody can remember the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) ever refusing any meeting with Welsh MPs or any meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee; I am sure that he would confirm as much himself.

Finally, this might have been an appropriate allocation of time for the Bill if it were not a Wallace and Gromit Bill, laying the track as we go along with hundreds and hundreds of Government amendments. Instead, the Bill should have been properly scrutinised in advance and should have been through a pre-legislative scrutiny process. For that reason, the time allocated and the knives in the programme motion are wholly inadequate.

Question put.