Voting by Prisoners

Kate Green Excerpts

Thursday 10th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

It is a little unnerving to find myself disagreeing with so many right hon. and hon. Members and with a substantial proportion of public opinion, but I firmly believe that we must rescind the ban on a prisoner’s right to vote. I have listened to the arguments on the law and the role of the European Court. It has been suggested that the Court is extending its brief and seeking to prevail over the will of this Parliament and stretch the ambit of the convention beyond the fundamental human rights that it was originally set up to address. I see this in a rather different context—namely, as an opportunity to maintain and extend our understanding of human rights over time. There has never been a time when much of the popular will has been directed towards driving up protections and rights for prisoners. That is why it is important that the Court and our belonging to the convention should exert outside pressure to challenge us to go further in the name of social progress.

It has been argued that our standards are already among the highest, and in some respects they are, although not in respect of a prisoner’s right to vote. In many other countries, that right is extended either wholesale or on a more generous basis than it is here in the UK. It is absolutely right that we should aspire to the very highest standards in the rights that we afford people. The philosophical importance of convention rights is that they extend protection to minorities, even the undesirable ones that we do not like very much. We unpick and undermine those protections at great risk.

[Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)]

Does the hon. Lady agree that the House should be able to make a value judgment between a civic right and a human right? Human rights include the right to food, shelter and family life, whereas civic rights include the right to vote. There is a distinction between the two, and surely we can make a value judgment on behalf of our constituents and exercise our right to say that one is not the same as the other.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kate Green]

My point is that this external pressure is useful, as it repeatedly questions what our understanding of human rights should be. It is too easy for us to get locked into a narrow definition and understanding of those rights that constantly looks to the past. That is what will happen if we simply sit within our own jurisdictional context and fail to look at what is going on in the wider world.

It has also been suggested that the European Court is making some poor-quality decisions. Questions have been raised about the qualifications of some of the judges and their weakness. Points have also been raised about different sentencing systems in different convention countries. Although I absolutely accept that all of that is true, it should not provide a reason on its own to weaken the overall authority of the convention and the institutions in place to police it. The convention may well not be a perfect framework, but as things stand, it offers one of the best protections of human rights that we have.

I strongly agree with the Attorney-General and the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) that the convention will be weakened if we start to pick and choose which bits of the Court’s findings we like or dislike. How can we expect other countries not to pick and choose if we start to do so ourselves? How can we expect prisoners not to pick and choose which laws they do or do not agree with if we do not seek to follow the rule of law?

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Kate Green]

I am running short of time and I know many other Members wish to speak.

It is important to reflect on how to determine the balance when it comes to extending civil rights to those who disregard the laws of the land. That is a valid question which Members have raised. However, when it comes to setting sanctions in our criminal courts, I would start with the sentencing framework, the approach to sentencing and the identification of sentencing objectives that we already have in place in our criminal justice system. Sentencing should be proportionate and relevant; it is not clear that in all cases removing the right to vote would necessarily apply to all crimes.

It is true, as some hon. Members have suggested, that removing the right to vote might address sentencing goals such as punishment and possibly even deterrence, but what about the goals of rehabilitation and reintegrating prisoners into society, as others have mentioned? On that note, let us remember that so many people in our prisons are among the most marginalised and excluded in society before they go to prison, and they are often the most poorly educated, as has rightly been pointed out. I ask the Government to take the opportunity to develop good-quality programmes of prison education to address the range of factors that determine and drive social exclusion. Will Ministers identify how their thinking is developing about providing programmes to address the role and responsibilities of the citizen, as exercising the right to vote could become part of the rehabilitative process?

As I say, I am aware that these are not popular arguments—either in this House or perhaps beyond it—but I believe that there are strong arguments against the current ban. My starting point would be to have a right to vote across the piece, but to allow judges to determine where it would be appropriate to remove it and then to justify their decision in open court.

Legal aid

Kate Green Excerpts

Tuesday 14th December 2010 Westminster Hall

[Ms Buck]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that point and I will return in a moment to the issue of housing and homelessness.

Funding for judicial review is retained within the legal aid Green Paper. However, in many cases it is not based upon the legal help that allows for an effective judicial review. I have been told that retaining judicial review but withdrawing so much legal aid is as useful as having a flight of stairs between the first and second floors of a building when there is nothing between the ground floor and the first. Judicial review emerges from a wider pool of cases and there will be inadequate tests of the law if legal aid is withdrawn.

As we know from the Green Paper, eligibility for legal aid is to be further reduced. Over recent years—this is already a trend—the proportion of the population eligible for legal aid on a sliding scale of contributions has fallen from about half of the population to about a third. The Green Paper further lowers the level at which people are asked to contribute from their assets, and increases the percentage level of contributions from earnings. Moreover, for the first time, those on social security benefits should, it is suggested, be subject to a full asset test. Will the Minister write to me and state whether the Department has calculated the cost of such an exercise? Taken together, all those measures prompt the question of whether even those who are potentially entitled to legal aid can afford to take up that entitlement, and what that will mean for access to justice.

Members of the public are being asked to insure themselves to cover future legal aid cases. However, since those who lose out are, overwhelmingly, low-income households, it is extremely unlikely that they will be able to find money for a hypothetical eventuality, rather than for the daily struggle to house, heat and feed themselves. There is nothing wrong with taking out insurance in principle—it should be encouraged—but is it realistic to ask low-income groups to insure against eventualities that are simply not as foreseeable as those risks that lead people to insure their homes and cars?

The loss of legal aid will mean that most, if not all, of the 500,000 people affected will lose access to advice and representation. That figure will include many of the most vulnerable categories of people. The legal aid consultation itself acknowledges that in respect of issues such as debt, welfare benefits and education, people with disabilities are likely to be disproportionately affected. For example, 63% of legally aided clients in the sphere of welfare benefits assistance are disabled.

The excellent briefing produced for this debate by the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux states that

“alternative sources of advice are simply not available, suitable or accessible for the overwhelming majority of our client group”

and

“the voluntary sector and pro bono does not have the capacity to fulfil the need currently met by Legal Aid in terms of the volume of people or the specialism required for more complex cases.”

Will the Minister say, either now or later, whether the Department has carried out a full capacity assessment to assure us that voluntary and pro bono facilities are available to fill the gap that will be created by the proposals in the Green Paper?

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

In the context of my hon. Friend’s remarks about the impact of the proposals, does she agree that yet again we are seeing a disproportionate impact on women, especially, of course, in relation to family cases?

[Ms Buck]

That is absolutely right, and I will deal with family law in a moment.

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[Stephen Lloyd]

I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. That is a fair comment, and I certainly will not dispute the facts of what she says.

I was talking about the upwards of £250,000 that the two charities in Eastbourne stand to lose. They use that funding to support more than 1,500 of the town’s most vulnerable residents with complex debt, benefit and housing problems, many of which have been alluded to. I and many others believe that the social welfare help that the Government plan to reduce is very much preventive and enabling; it is focused not on generating unnecessary litigation, but on preventing crises by solving complex problems at an early stage.

[Kate Green]

Does the hon. Gentleman not also accept that people face clusters of problems? Even if people can still access some legal help, removing some categories of legal help altogether will inevitably mean that there will be areas of difficulty where people can no longer get the help that they need.

[Stephen Lloyd]

That is a fair point, and I look forward to hearing exactly how the Minister will respond.

I recognise that these are difficult economic times and that the Ministry of Justice faces incredibly difficult budgetary decisions. However, I am concerned that without a clear alternative for resourcing and supporting preventive advice in particular, the proposals will increase the demands not only on the crisis-related legal advice services that remain, but on other public services.

As I indicated, legal aid cuts have a particular impact on housing. Over the past few years, legal aid has funded BHT Eastbourne Advice’s handling of 800 to 900 specialist housing cases per year. That was reduced to 530 cases per year for the most recent three-year forward contract, which commenced on 15 November.

It is estimated that the current proposals could reduce housing advice capacity by 20%, which will have a very detrimental impact on advice provision in my constituency and many other towns, at a time when such advice will be in high demand following the implementation of the housing benefit reforms. I agree that those reforms are necessary, but they will have a knock-on effect.

Advice is effective in preventing homelessness, especially if it is given early. The proposals to limit legal aid to those in imminent threat of repossession flies in the face of all the evidence that early intervention and prevention create long-term savings, as well as averting hardship for constituents.

I urge the Minister to revisit this issue to see whether the remaining funds can be targeted differently to ensure that legal aid—particularly for civil and family law cases—is more extensively protected.

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[Emma Reynolds]

I could not have put it better myself. There are great concerns in the CAB in Wolverhampton. It is facing a cut not only in legal aid, but in the financial inclusion fund, to which I will refer briefly later.

I want to come on to the issue of the day. I know a lot of hon. Members are concerned about the cost of the legal aid budget. Let us not forget that the starting point for our debate today, as recognised in the Government’s Green Paper, is that half a million people in our country get help from the legal aid budget. That is a sign of a civilised country; it is something to be proud of, not to be attacked or ashamed of. Although we obviously have to look at the costs, I remind colleagues of my earlier point: the previous Government were looking at these issues. In the past 10 years, there was a reduction in real terms in civil legal aid of 24%. Capping the fees paid to solicitors and barristers was also being considered, as well as getting better value for money for the taxpayer by looking at how contracts were awarded and seeking economies of scale. That sort of rationalisation is a far cry from removing wholesale entire categories of legal aid from the budget. For example, family law, which other hon. Members have mentioned, welfare benefits, debt, housing and education.

I want to refer specifically to withdrawing legal aid in cases of welfare benefits. Around 80% of the social welfare legal aid cases dealt with by the CAB record positive outcomes for the individual involved. That goes to show that there are issues there. When the Government are bringing forward deep and far-reaching welfare reforms—I do not believe that they should—it is precisely the wrong time to be taking this area completely out of the scope of legal aid.

[Kate Green]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the poor quality of decision making in the social security system also creates an increased need for legal aid? We all naturally hope that that level of decision making can be improved, and I hope that the Government will give that attention. In the meantime, it is important for people to have that protection, particularly when we look at the high rate of successful appeals against decisions on employment and support allowance.

[Emma Reynolds]

I could not agree more. Members of all parties know that such examples come up time and again in their surgeries. The other day someone came to my surgery who had been overpaid benefits and now has a massive sum to pay back, though the matter was not their fault. The state has responsibility to such people.