Oral Answers to Questions

John Pugh Excerpts

Thursday 28th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr McLoughlin]

My hon. Friend should know that this franchise was last let in 2004 on a nil-growth exercise—quite the reverse of what we have done. What will happen with the new franchise is that we will see the complete removal of the outdated and unpopular Pacers by 2019; £400 million of investment in 281 brand-new air-conditioned carriages; more than 2,000 extra services provided each week, including around 400 on Sundays; space for an extra 31,000 passengers; and £45 million invested in stations. Yes, my hon. Friend’s constituents will see a major improvement.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

I invite the Minister to comment on my question 18 on Government support for hydrogen fuel cell technology.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Andrew Jones)]

Hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles, alongside battery electric vehicles, have the potential to play an important role in decarbonising road transport. The Government began working with the industry in 2012 through the UK H₂Mobility programme, developing a road map for hydrogen-based transport. It has a big role in the future.

Oral Answers to Questions

John Pugh Excerpts

Thursday 10th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Jones]

That is a very entrepreneurial extension of the question. I am always happy to look at issues of road safety wherever they are on our road network. We have already had a Westminster Hall debate on this issue, so the hon. Gentleman is fully aware of the Government’s view.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

This is absolutely currently the most appalling bit of the motorway network anywhere in England. Has the Minister factored into his plans further economic growth in the north and the need to shift freight to rail?

[Andrew Jones]

Most certainly at the heart of our road investment strategy is the impact on the freight sector. As regards rail, I work very closely with the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry).

High Speed 2

John Pugh Excerpts

Monday 30th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr McLoughlin]

What I have announced today is a line extension of 37 miles between Fradley in the west midlands and Crewe. Of those 37 miles, 1.1 miles consist of three tunnels, and there will also be 4 miles of viaduct. Of course I am always willing to listen to representations from my hon. Friend and others who wish to make them, and once the Bill has been published, people will be able to petition as well.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

If things are being accelerated, is there any chance of Liverpool being properly linked to HS2 before 2033, if ever?

[Mr McLoughlin]

As a result of the announcements I have made, Liverpool will get a faster journey time as far as the high-speed link is concerned, so it will see the benefits. Other people are making the case that we should go even further with the HS2 line.

Rolling Stock (North of England)

John Pugh Excerpts

Wednesday 12th March 2014 Westminster Hall

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

It struck me, Mr Turner, that you represent probably the most southerly constituency in the House. It is just as well that you are not able to contribute.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) on securing this opportune debate and putting her points in a feisty way, although I think she could have been a little more consensual. It was not this Government, after all, who decided that the best way to spend £6 billion was on Crossrail, rather than on improving rolling stock in the north. I speak as a jaundiced member of the Crossrail Bill Committee, to which I was sentenced for two years.

Rolling stock is not just a trans-Pennine issue; it is a quality issue in many areas, because, frankly, the quality is dire. I have had a long-standing campaign against the Class 142s, which are essentially Leyland buses on wheels. They were originally produced by Mrs Thatcher, almost as an emergency motion to keep Leyland Motors going. Most of them still running are on the Northern Rail franchise, although not all—some are on Arriva in the Welsh valleys. Those trains are not the oldest stock in the northern area—the oldest are the refurbished Merseyrail trains—but they are certainly the most uncomfortable and the most outmoded and they are not disability-compliant. They are probably not safe in either a collision or a derailment, and they certainly deter business passengers.

Any sane franchise arrangement would seek to get rid of the Class 142s, and I have tried to help with that. I have investigated the safety issues and I have contacted fellow northern MPs, some of whom are present for this debate. I have surveyed passengers, and I have spoken to franchise holders, the Department for Transport— particularly on the safety issues—and the media. The BBC did a good exposé of how bad conditions are on the trains, which are virtually cattle trucks. The responses I get are various: I am told that the trains are cheap to run and that, although they are rickety, one man with a decent set of spanners can usually repair them, saving an expensive trip to the repair shop; I am told they have utility, because they can be coupled and decoupled on the smaller lines; and I am also told that someone has to have them and, more horrifyingly, that they might be refurbished at some point. That sends a chill of fear down the spine of anyone travelling in the north.

[Andy McDonald]

Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern? The last time I was on a Pacer 142, I was horrified to see that where a seat had become detached from its iron frame, it had been bolted back and new cloth had been put on, with the likelihood that it would last a lot longer.

[John Pugh]

With that example, one surely has to think about what would happen in an accident where a passenger was thrown around the carriage.

Despite the appalling treatment of the northern franchises, patronage, profitability and demand are up. To be fair, the Government have started to realise the potential. They have started to put capital into the north, and we should all praise them for the northern hub go-ahead and the electrification. They have also, I hope, started to realise that we get a raw deal in the north. Recently, my colleagues and I submitted a document called “Grim up North?” to the Chancellor, which, among other things, analyses transport expenditure.

We are not fighting a particular Government but a Whitehall mindset. Frankly, Sir Humphrey knows all about Chiltern Railways. His friends travel on those lines and he has used them. Time and again in the Department for Transport, we come up against obstacles, whoever happens to be the Minister. We come up against what is called the business case argument, which basically says that transport investment should follow demand and profit, and the Department will point out that those are greatest in the south. That is not a false view, but it has to be set against the other principle that transport strategy and investment can drive demand, profit and economic growth. Unless we do something to arrest the downward spiral, we will continue to have a good case made within the Department for investment in the south and a rather mealy-mouthed case made for investment in the north.

It is rather like being in a strange family, where there is a large, obese child—a sort of cuckoo in the nest, rather like London—and when the food is doled out or, in this case, when franchises and coaches are doled out, we look at our meagre portions and we complain. We are told and will be told by the Department that the demand and the profits are greatest in the south, and that is where the franchises want to go, but we simply cannot go on like that. We have to contest the Whitehall mindset. We are already seeing signs of that mindset clawing its way back. Although we have the northern hub and electrification, there is anxiety about franchise devolution, as the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge pointed out; there is a lack of thought about the consequences of electrification for those areas that are not electrified, as the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) pointed out; there is confusion about the franchises; and we have rolling stock issues in abundance. Generally speaking, we have to recognise that, while we can carry on moaning and appearing like whingeing northerners, there comes a point when we collectively need to move from being whingeing northerners to becoming rebellious northerners.

Greener Road Transport Fuels

John Pugh Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2013 Westminster Hall

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir, as always. It is also a delight to see the Minister after his recent preferment.

The debate might not be as well titled as possible, and if it fails to run its course, I urge all and sundry not to feel the obligation simply to fill up the time. Primarily, I want to talk about how we move around in a more environmentally sustainable way.

A passage from “The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy” should be pinned up in the Department for Transport. It is the definition of a bypass or a new road, described as

“devices that allow some people to dash from point A to point B very fast while other people dash from point B to point A very fast. People living at…a point directly in between, are often given to wonder what’s so great about point A that so many people from point B are so keen to get there, and what’s so great about point B that so many people from point A are so keen to get there. They often wish that people would just once and for all work out where the hell they wanted to be.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair)]

As all the main protagonists are here, we can resume.

[John Pugh]

I assume that my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Ian Swales)will be joining us shortly, but I think we can be less concerned about the timing of the debate, thanks to that interruption, Mr Weir.

I was trying to make the point that the most environmentally sustainable thing to do is probably not to move around at all, but for most of us in the 21st century, the daily commute, the school run, the journey to work and so on, are likely to be part of our lives for some time to come. Everyone in the room is surely familiar with that, as they surely are, too, with the constant need to refuel the vehicles that they use.

Everyone with a conscience in these times, when they are standing in the forecourt, probably thinks of two things: they consider price, primarily, but they also think of pollution. The Government, reflecting voters’ views, think not only of pollution and price, but of one other thing: revenue. It has long been a Government axiom that they are prepared to sacrifice revenue to achieve an environmental effect, because we all recognise that individuals by themselves are unlikely to bring about major environmental change. A community problem has to be solved on a community basis.

The fundamental problem presented by our travelling—that is, apart from noise, disruption and the permanent possibility of accidental death—relates to air quality and emissions from vehicles. We can address that locally through things such as the congestion charge, which, in London, has been a great success in improving air quality, and in a small-scale way through pedestrianisation, but that does not, by itself, do anything about the cumulative national, international and global impacts of transport.

The obvious remedy—not the only obvious remedy, but certainly one of them—is to make fuel less polluting or to make less polluting fuels, and to persuade, or alternatively, to coerce drivers to use them. A number of alternatives are clamouring for our attention. This list is not complete, but I put down hydrogen, bioethanol, biofuels, biogas—anything beginning with “bio”—electricity and electric cars, liquefied petroleum gas and compressed natural gas. There are exotic alternatives, too: I am aware that my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) runs his rather large car on chip fat, which is one of the more exotic possibilities. None of them, particularly chip fat, is wholly unproblematic.

I want to put the case for LPG, particularly, as the least problematic alternative and the most worthy of Government support. By support, I mean fiscal support, rather than support in the form of further research and so on. I do not think LPG, as a mode of propelling cars, needs any further research. It can obviously been made more efficient over time, but the technology is well understood and well implemented.

I would like briefly to deal with some other candidates and my reasons for sidelining them in this debate. I am sure that other colleagues will wish to do otherwise and will perhaps want to highlight them. On hydrogen briefly, I think that we have to put that aside. People talk of conspiracy theories about the influence of the oil industry; there have been a good number of stories going back decades about how any promising research into hydrogen propulsion has been sat on, bought up or, in some way, scotched by the oil industry. I do not know whether that is true, but even advocates of hydrogen as a fuel would probably acknowledge that it is not yet a mature, scalable technology. More research is needed, and I hope that the Government will engage with those who research in this field, even if they do not actively support it.

Biofuels are further down the track, but consideration of biofuels and their mandatory mixing with conventional fuels, or their use as a substitute for conventional fuels, leads us to a series of what appear to be complex debates. The obvious debate, held at length in the Daily Mail, is about whether they will add to transport costs. Another debate, particularly on the continent, is about whether they are compatible with all forms of engine development—I understand that the German car industry has reservations and has blocked progress at EU level. There are debates about whether they will threaten food security or raise food costs, and about whether they will have a detrimental effect on land use as land use changes.

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman said that there is a debate about whether biofuels can affect food security. I quote the report from the Select Committee on International Development, which said that

“the FAO, the OECD and the World Bank”

all agree and that it is rare for so many organisations to agree on a fact such as that biofuels are a threat to food security.

[John Pugh]

This debate is swirling around the European community and effecting some progress, along the lines of putting a great amount of biofuel into ordinary fuel.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

Just to reinforce the point made by the hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell), I think the United Nations has latterly described the use of wheat for petrol as a “crime against humanity”, which I think sums up where we are on that.

[John Pugh]

I think I might reserve the phrase “crime against humanity” for other things, but I recognise the impact. A number of third world charities believe that the net effect will further impoverish the third world and the areas that most need our help.

[Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman rather skated over the issue of hydrogen-fuelled cars. I drove in such a car 10 years ago in Detroit. The technology is perfectly good. Does he agree that hydrogen suffers from exactly the same problem as biofuels, which is the source material, in that we must have land to grow source material from which to extract hydrogen?

[John Pugh]

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman understands hydrogen propulsion a lot better than I do; I hope he makes a contribution. I am betraying my ignorance here. I am just providing a preamble to what I hope will be a successful plea in favour of greater and more effective use of LPG. I do not in any way counter or dismiss the value of what the hon. Gentleman said.

[David Mowat]

I think hydrogen technology works extremely well, but the issue is that hydrogen infrastructure does not exist anywhere. Some countries have tried to develop hydrogen infrastructure; Iceland is an example. The difficulty is that infrastructure exists for petrol cars but not for hydrogen. That is what will stop the use of hydrogen.

[John Pugh]

I am certainly surrounded by people who are far more learned than myself in the field, but I shall have the temerity to continue.

Even if the biofuels issue has moved on to the discussion of what are called second generation biofuels, where people talk about not using virgin land or crops but municipal waste and algae, technical questions about the reliability of supply remain, particularly if whole-scale, mandatory use in other fuels is considered an option. I am simply pointing out that there are problems, and I think hon. Members’ interventions have helped me to illustrate precisely that point.

In some ways, electric cars seem a perfect solution, until one considers the production costs, which are currently high. There are issues with the battery, such as its weight, life and endurance, and with how the electricity itself is produced; the electricity might not have been produced in a carbon-neutral way. There is also the issue of flexibility of use, which I think is well understood by anyone who considers the topic for a second or two: what happens when battery life is exhausted?

I recognise that electric motors can be made to become more efficient; that battery technology can be increased; and that we can have charging points across the country—in fact, grants are, I believe, available at the moment and points are appearing—but there is still some way to go. One of my constituents, who died over the weekend, had been progressing with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills some new development that would make electric motors a lot more efficient and batteries a lot more effective. Developments will be made in that field, but my best guess—this is borne out by conversations that I have had with the motor industry—is that despite Government investment and considerable Government enthusiasm, from some Ministers at any rate, electric cars will probably remain a niche market, extending only as the use of hybrids becomes more popular.

Even were electric cars to take off for the motorist, we will not see electric buses, unless we call them trams, and to be fair, the electric lorry is some way off. Lorries necessarily travel long distances, and the cost of that and the weight of carrying batteries to enable them to do that would probably be wholly prohibitive for quite some time to come.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the greatest challenges to the roll-out of electric vehicles is addressing what is called range anxiety, where drivers are worried that they will, like the Duracell rabbit, run out of power in an unfortunate place?

[John Pugh]

Yes. I think that, to some extent, the worry is misplaced. I think the range is greater than people imagine, but that underlying anxiety makes it difficult to sell purely electric cars, as opposed to hybrid cars; it is a lot harder ask of the consumer. In any case, when it comes to value for the consumer, electric cars are head to head with the new generation of the ever more efficient and quieter diesels. Looking at what is happening with car market sales, one can see the result. However, even with lower emissions, more diesels clocking more miles in bigger cars, which is what we seem to be seeing at the moment, will not significantly reduce the nation’s carbon footprint in the long term.

In the short term, there is also the added complication of more particulates being released into the air, which could have some negative short-term effects on people’s health. Some particulates are carcinogenic, and certainly none of them are particularly good for people’s respiratory system. Some people say that air pollution at the moment, particularly from diesels, is as dangerous as passive smoking. That brings me to LPG and CNG.

LPG creates fewer emissions—15% less than petrol and 40% less than diesel. It has no production problems; we make LPG vehicles in this country. Sadly, they are mostly left-hand-drive and exported, but they are made in large numbers in this country. It is a mature technology. It is being scaled up throughout the continent, and we have in place a distribution network—something like 14,000 points minimum, with most of the major supermarkets providing an obvious port of call for people.

An LPG vehicle can be easily converted—at the flick of a switch—to a petrol vehicle without detriment to its engine or its performance. However, when we look at what is happening with LPG in this country, we see stagnation, with very limited production. Granted, there are some post-production adaptations, but even when we think about that, it is a Catch-22 situation.

I have looked into the issue. I own two old cars, both of them about 16 or 17 years old. Both have fairly large engines, are quite expensive and could benefit from being converted. However, the cost of conversion probably now exceeds the cost of purchasing both cars, so someone in that sort of situation is unlikely to do so. The real issue with an older car is that, having done the expensive conversion, can anyone guarantee that the car will not fail in some other respect?

Equally, if someone is thinking about converting a new car, which makes an awful lot of sense over the lifetime of the car, they will run into issues regarding the guarantee on the car and its servicing. The garage from where the car was bought may not be happy to deal with it once it has been converted. The guarantee and service issues are enough to deflect all but the most determined purchaser.

Either way, there is a problem. The solution is for us to produce and use more LPG vehicles, but we are going backwards here. If anyone looks at the second-hand LPG market, as I have, they will find second-hand Vectras and Astras, but those cars are about seven or eight years old—vintage—simply because cars of that sort are not being produced for the UK market anymore. However, Opel, which is virtually the same company, is producing the Opel Adam, a new LPG car, as a brand leader. We therefore have the phenomenon where, in an allegedly not-so-developed country such as Turkey, there is a 20% uptake of LPG, while in England, the figure is 0.5%.

If the situation is poor with cars, it is probably worse with freight, where the whole-life cost of lorries—lorries are surprisingly expensive—have to be factored in by hauliers. In terms of cost per mile, it would benefit an enormous number of hauliers to convert, as long as they can predict the cost over a period, but to do so, they must have some sort of guarantee that the financial environment that they are in will remain somewhat similar.

We can see how a change in the financial environment has made a difference. At one time in the north-west, quite a few LPG buses were running around—they were very clean indeed—but changes in the bus grant and the subsidy bus companies got on their diesel simply destroyed the network, and firms such as Arriva rapidly withdrew from providing them. Initially, I thought it was an issue of reliability and so on, but that turned out not to be the case.

That is the problem. We have a solution, a partial solution or an off-the-shelf solution, which we can implement now, but we are not making any headway, while the rest of Europe is. Why is that the case? Given that we have a solution—it is not the sole solution, and it may not be the long-term solution, but we can do something appreciable to reduce emissions—why has it not been implemented? I think that it is because the Government are not creating a sufficiently certain economic environment.

It is often said that two things in life are certain: death and taxes. The problem is that taxes to provide fiscal environmental incentives are not that certain. There is a differential between LPG and petrol, but it is agreed annually. When the Government are pressed by Members to do more, they respond with a formula—it is in the debate pack—that goes something like this:

“The Chancellor keeps…under review and takes into account all relevant fiscal and economic impacts when taking decisions.”—[Official Report, 13 November 2012; Vol. 553, c. 176W.]

On the face of it, that sounds rational, until we recognise that long-term investment requires at least medium-term predictability. My worry is that, without predictability, many green technologies are destined to tread water. That is not speculation; we just need to compare the UK with other parts of Europe and to look at what happens there. The empirical evidence is clear: where there is a more far-sighted, more determined fiscal climate, LPG and, I dare say, other forms of green transport expand.

I can understand the Treasury view—it is anal, it is perhaps sound accountancy and it is prudent—but it is self-evidently a lousy business strategy, and it simply has to be challenged. When I raised the issue during the passage of the Finance Bill, the Treasury Minister—he is now the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, and I am assured that he is going places—replied:

“I hope he will understand that the Government need to balance the provision of certainty with the ability to respond to economic and fiscal developments. We can provide a degree of certainty…but I hope he”—

that is me—

“will take into account that there needs to be a certain degree of fiscal flexibility.”––[Official Report, Finance Public Bill Committee, 13 June 2013; c. 526-27.]

I appreciate that, but if there is such uncertainty, it prevents consumers, councils and businesses from thinking ahead and doing energy deals over many years. What is to prevent the Treasury from making a decision on the differential that contains caveats to protect against unpredictable, massive future volatility?

An agreement could be established that gives the Treasury some comfort and investors in LPG who would like to invest further some confidence that they will get some return on their investment. Is it not better to try to achieve that outcome than to have what we have at the moment, which is a fiscal incentive that, if the facts are to be believed, does not act as much of an incentive? If that incentive was working, I simply would not be here. There is no point in me or the Treasury acting in a wholly futile way. If the incentive does not do the job, we have to look at it again.

We need critical mass if LPG is to be the force it might be. Members can probably recall a time when diesels lacked critical mass. They were associated, particularly in the passenger car market, with clouds of black smoke, noisy, rattling engines and slow acceleration. The tipping point came when one neighbour could look at the shiny car in the other’s drive, discuss it with them and find that the car, which did not appear to be belching black smoke or rattling, was actually a diesel. As a result, diesels took off to a great extent in this country. The same can happen with LPG, but we still have some way to go.

In 2005, all the political parties talked about Mondeo man. I actually live next door to him, in so far as my neighbour has bought a P registration LPG Mondeo estate on eBay for a modest price. He swears by its reliability and economy, and he gets a huge mileage. He has found a rare pearl and an unusual buy, because there are not many cars like that.

For many people, it would be desirable to have a vehicle that is reliable, economical to run and environmentally less bad than a diesel, but that simply will not happen until two things come about. First, the Department for Transport needs to listen a bit harder to the industry, and I hope this new Minister has an open mind and will listen. However, he has a bigger task: to ensure the Treasury listens much harder to the Department for Transport.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Swales]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I have told many potential investors in the industry that we cannot expect the Government to make winners. As at a roulette table, they will put their chips on lots of different numbers, but having made policy on, for example, the proportion of petrol that should come from bio-sources, they cannot change it when people are putting in hundreds of millions of pounds. By the way, those biofuels do not get a subsidy; all they need is a market that is understood and left to prosper. I agree with his point, but at some stage we must not so much pick winners, as set the environment for particular sectors of the market to thrive.

[John Pugh]

One place the Government cannot avoid interacting with the market in one way or another is the taxation regime, and they do so to an enormous extent. A lot of the price of petrol is tax. They cannot opt out.

[Ian Swales]

That is a good point. The Government have a key role, because they are never out of the market, due to the environment they set and the rules they put in place. They are players, whether they like it or not.

We need to look constantly at the science behind the issues and not simply listen to the last non-governmental organisation we spoke to. Sustainability needs to be looked at from cradle to grave, and there is a lot of devil in that detail, such as the materials used to make a car battery for an electric car. We need to police systems, because once we put rules in place, there are usually lots of people working on the best way to get round them and maximise their take. We need to ensure that we are not naive about the systems we put in place. We need big thinking.

One of my concerns is that we need five Ministers to respond to the debate: one from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills; one from the Department of Energy and Climate Change; one from the Treasury; one from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; and one from the Department for Transport, who I am sure—no pressure—will speak for all the others. The issues typically cross those five Departments, a fact that I know the Government recognise. They have put a high-level team in place, but we need not just high-level thinking, but high-level action to ensure we get a consistent view, over, for example, the value of waste and where it is best used.

Finally, I congratulate the Minister on his new role. I am sure that, having listened to the debate, he is wondering whether he did the right thing in accepting the job. I hope he will give us the clarity we all seek.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Goodwill]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Methane, or biogas, is CH₄, so for every molecule of carbon dioxide produced there are four molecules of water, so it is a big improvement over fossil fuels such as LPG.

[John Pugh]

I was not aware of the cooking oil development plant in Bootle, but I was once the leader of Sefton council, which covered Bootle. The major environmental issue that we had was the strange smell that used to permeate households in the area, and that was regarded in those days as an environmental hazard. This environment is a complicated thing to deal with.

[Mr Goodwill]

Indeed. We have a big chip factory in my constituency, which occasionally has the same effect. Used cooking oil offers carbon savings of around 80% compared with those produced by fossil fuel, and the latest data suggest that last year around a third of biofuels supplied in the UK came from used cooking oil. We are very much on the case of ensuring that used cooking oil is indeed used cooking oil, and the Department is currently monitoring the situation closely because of the allegations that have been flying around. Certainly, the UK should not be criticised in that regard.

There is still more to do to ensure the sustainability of biofuels. In particular, we are concerned about the impact of indirect land use change. Studies have demonstrated that, due to ILUC, some otherwise sustainably produced biofuels can end up causing greater carbon emissions than fossil fuels.

Oral Answers to Questions

John Pugh Excerpts

Thursday 27th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Norman Baker]

We have set up local transport bodies and I have recently been engaging with them on their assurance frameworks, so in the immediate future I would suggest that the hon. Lady contacts her local transport body. The LEP responsibility kicks in from 2015.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

Does the Minister agree that the local growth fund should be used to boost cross-country connectivity and not just to join together the big cities, particularly in areas such as Lancashire?

[Norman Baker]

I certainly agree that it is important to consider all aspects of the geography when considering bids. It is not simply a matter of building huge new roads from A to B. Often, the local pinch point investments referred to by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary a moment ago can be very effective indeed, so we should be prepared to be open-minded about the schemes that are appropriate for funding.

Oral Answers to Questions

John Pugh Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Burns]

As the hon. Lady knows, Crossrail 2 is the responsibility of the Mayor of London because it is a devolved matter. However, I accept that there is a knock-on effect for other rail services that are wholly the responsibility of the DFT. The Mayor of London announced recently that there will be a full consultation process. We await that and look forward to seeing any business case or justification. Those matters will be considered in due course, but we have to go through the due processes first.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

I was sentenced to two years on the Crossrail Bill Committee. HS2 is jam tomorrow; Crossrail is £6 billion now. Is not enough money spent on London proportionately at the moment?

[Mr Burns]

I strongly believe that there is an overwhelming case for high-speed rail in this country. Indeed, I would go further and say that we cannot afford not to have high-speed rail. I regret, as much as I suspect the hon. Gentleman does, going by his question, the length of time that it takes to establish any major project in this country, because that is not in the country’s best interests. However, it is certainly in the national interest to press ahead with a high-speed rail network throughout the country.

Oral Answers to Questions

John Pugh Excerpts

Thursday 28th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Justine Greening]

My hon. Friend makes a perfectly reasonable point. Holders of a photocard driving licence are required by law to renew the photograph on the licence every 10 years so that it remains a good likeness of the driver. I take his points on board—I absolutely do not want to see drivers caught out—and, as he is aware, we are looking more broadly at how we can make sure that our driving licence works well for motorists, not least investigating when we can begin to put the country’s flag on it for a change.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

T2. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities. Is this topical question 2 or topical question 1, Mr Speaker?

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Justine Greening)]

It has been a busy couple of months in the Department for Transport. We have announced our plans to work with petrol retailers to get a better deal for motorists at the pump. We have helped local authorities to unlock economic growth with our £266 million local sustainable transport fund announcement. We have set out the next steps for attracting greater investment in the strategic road network, issuing rail franchise consultations on the inter-city east coast and south-eastern franchises. With other Government Departments, we are working extremely hard to put in place the final planning and preparations to make sure that we host a fantastic Olympic and Paralympic games this summer.

[John Pugh]

I thank the Minister for the additional £20 million for Merseyside Transport. Without wishing to appear ungrateful, what is happening to the appalling rolling stock on the northern franchise, which is wholly unsuitable, particularly on the Southport-Manchester link?

[Justine Greening]

There is a significant piece of work under way to look at what we can do to improve rolling stock across the network, including looking at what additional new rolling stock we need, and how the existing rolling stock can cascade to improve services for others on the line. I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, who is responsible for railways, is listening closely and will look into the issues that he has just raised.

Northern Rail Hub

John Pugh Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Westminster Hall

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on stimulating this important debate, and I pay tribute to other contributors, in particular the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer), who has fought a long and relentless battle to get the northern hub on the political agenda. I think it can be accepted that to get Merseyside MPs such as myself and the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) to advocate serious investment in Manchester takes something special, and it is due to a recognition that the Manchester network is a bottleneck for the whole north, affecting Leeds, Sheffield, Chester, Liverpool, Lancashire, Yorkshire and various golden triangles, squares and rectangles as yet unenumerated. The effect on the north is widespread, and my constituents in Southport are affected too; their journeys to Manchester are a nightmare, they suffer overcrowding not only on the train but at the platform in Manchester and they suffer the most appalling stock and the most appalling service.

On 20 October, at the northern rail conference, the Minister said, rather encouragingly, that we were going to get rid of the Pacers. We have heard that refrain before, and people have mentioned cascading stock down and so on, but in reality new trains are found first, foremost and almost exclusively for the south-east. The feeling in the north sometimes is that it is jam tomorrow, and I regard High Speed 2 as jam tomorrow or some way in the distance. Collectively, as northern MPs, however, we all want serious incremental change now. We want the better links with London, which would certainly be a good thing, but currently we desperately need better inter-regional connectivity.

I praise the Government and the Minister for having made a good start. To my great astonishment, we have seen the introduction of new rail in the north-west with the Todmorden curve, and £300 million has been found for electrification and £85 million for the Ordsall chord. The total Government commitment for rail is, however, actually £18 billion, and the whole northern hub project has been costed at £560 million, as Members have said, which puts things in perspective. Hon. Members have pointed out that the benefit-cost ratio exceeds comfortably the figures presented for Crossrail, which is costing about £6 billion. I speak with real bitterness because I was sentenced to two years, for crimes unknown, to serve on the hybrid Crossrail Bill. I was surprised at the many substantial objections to the scheme, which, had it been in the north, would certainly have postponed it, if not altogether eliminated it.

The Secretary of State for Transport has, however, said some encouraging things. She has spoken about investing in 2,700 new carriages throughout the network, but as I pointed out, that will only lead to a weary shrug from the man trapped on the Pacer. I went through some of my e-mails on the subject recently, and I want to refer briefly to two of them. A chap wrote to me in 2008 and said:

“Regularly there are only two carriages laid on and it is standing room before we have left the station. Breakdowns …particularly in winter are a feature attraction of the service however given the age of the trains this is unsurprising. When will there be some newer trains on this line?”

Four years later, another e-mail begins wearily:

“Yet again my journey on a Monday morning has been delayed by over an hour by the poor quality rolling stock used on the Southport to Manchester line…This is on top of the regular short formation of units, which appears to be a Northern Rail buzz phrase”—

a synonym for serious overcrowding.

I therefore welcome the progress that might be made on the northern hub, and we would all like to see more progress. I like the sound of a united or pan-northern approach, which is important, because it has not always been there in previous Parliaments and it is refreshing. Often, the objection to serious infrastructure is the lack of collective political will in an area, but cross-party, substantial and solid political will is clearly present. We do not need a Napoleonic regional mayor to step in and tell us what needs doing. Collectively, as politicians, we have come to the conclusion that this needs doing, and we would just like the Minister to get on with it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Hood, to have the opportunity to serve under your chairmanship today. I congratulate the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on securing this important debate. It is even more important following the recent announcement to give the go-ahead to High Speed 2. That announcement is a signal of just how important investment in high-speed, efficient rail services is for the future growth of our national and regional economies. I absolutely support the northern hub as an important strategic investment and opportunity.

In that context, I want to be slightly more parochial and to plead that places and communities such as West Lancashire should not be forgotten when planning and investing in our railways. The danger for West Lancashire is that we lose out because of the dominance of the city regions and core cities that act almost as capitals. The effectiveness of such schemes lies in connectivity and the quality of the entire rail network. West Lancashire is virtually at the crossroads of the north-west. If big circles are drawn around Preston, Liverpool and Manchester, West Lancashire is the bit in the middle. My plea in this debate and the wider debate on transport infrastructure investment is not to forget West Lancashire.

Since being elected in 2005, I have campaigned constantly for improved rail infrastructure across all areas of my constituency. My great concern is that places such as West Lancashire are in real danger of falling behind with rail infrastructure. I shall give a couple of brief examples. Skelmersdale is the most populated town in my constituency, but it has no rail service at all. A major redevelopment of the town centre is about to start and is the biggest investment since it was established 50 years ago. We have a brand new state-of-the-art college, and the town has an exciting new future with many opportunities, if people can get there.

The really good news for the north-west is the Lancashire triangle rail electrification, which will be transformational for the north-west. West Lancashire has three lines serving the area, and I ask the Minister to remember that our biggest town, Skelmersdale, has no rail service at all. Delivery of the Lancashire triangle rail electrification will leave West Lancashire in a strange position, because diesel trains will still run in a small area unless more investment is put into the electrification.

If nothing is done, there will be implications on rail development in West Lancashire. For example, the Manchester line carries an increasing number of passengers, with alternate trains going to Victoria and Manchester airport. Transport for Greater Manchester appears to be suggesting that the airport service may be sacrificed in favour of running trains from West Yorkshire and east Manchester to the airport. The Kirkby to Wigan line passes through Up Holland, which would form the basis of a rail station at Skelmersdale. That line was proposed for electrification in the early 1980s, and there is clearly a need to extend the existing Merseyrail service from Liverpool to Kirkby to serve Skelmersdale. That would provide an opportunity to consider a service between Skelmersdale, Wigan and Manchester, and that should be done because it is likely that many of the employment opportunities for those who live in West Lancashire will be found in Liverpool and Manchester.

My third example is the route between Liverpool, Ormskirk and Preston. Ormskirk has a superb service to Liverpool; the line from Ormskirk to Preston has recently received an improved timetable, and Network Rail is examining the business case for an hourly service. There is, however, strong demand to extend the existing Merseyrail service beyond Ormskirk to Burscough and the famous Burscough curves. That would enable an hourly service to Preston to be delivered at low cost.

[John Pugh]

Does the hon. Lady recognise that the Government are taking a huge step in restoring the Todmorden curve? It shows that they are ready to look at such projects and provides some hope that the Burscough curves will receive serious consideration.

[Rosie Cooper]

I did not quite hear all of that, but I am hopeful that a service on the Burscough curves will eventually be established. My point is that all three routes that I have mentioned will be operating in an area that is dominated by electric services. Electric trains run only where the line is electrified, so unless the trains have an additional power source that will enable them to continue for some distance, West Lancashire runs the risk of becoming isolated.

As well as the new electric trains on the newly electrified Lancashire triangle—well, not new exactly, but second-hand from the London area—the superb Merseyrail electric network also uses third-rail electrification. If lines in my area are not electrified and with the investment to improve the national and regional rail network infrastructure, my fear is that places such as West Lancashire will be left behind, which we cannot afford for a plethora of social and economic reasons. Such a move would begin to create greater disconnection and disintegration of the rail network. The challenge for me, West Lancashire and, I hope, the Minister is to ensure that West Lancashire does not become ever more isolated as a small island of diesel trains that are not included in the great opportunities and investment that is taking place.

High Speed 2

John Pugh Excerpts

Thursday 13th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Frank Dobson]

No, I shall not, because I want other people to get their speeches in.

I am particularly concerned to end the planning blight that now afflicts the people who live in the area affected and those in the area behind it, Primrose Hill, who may also be disturbed by the developments. I therefore wrote to the Secretary of State asking what guarantees he was willing to give about suitable alternative accommodation for the people affected. I asked whether it would be in the neighbourhood; whether they would remain tenants of the council; how soon such alternative accommodation would be provided; whether people would have to live in temporary accommodation while permanent accommodation was built; what security of tenure they would have; and what the effect would be on their rents and service charges. I got a letter back from him saying, “Oh, all that will need to be looked into in the fullness of time.” As far as I am concerned, that leaves 350 of my constituents on planning blight death row, and we have to do something about that. There is absolutely no reason why the Minister could not say today that she can offer all the guarantees that those people want, and that those guarantees will be one of the conditions of any agreement if the mad proposal finally goes ahead and HS2 comes into Euston.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?