John Glen
Main Page: John Glen (Conservative - Salisbury)Department Debates - View all John Glen's debates with the HM Treasury
(5 years, 5 months ago)
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The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
Thank you, Mr Walker. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker) on bringing this debate to the Chamber. I acknowledge the 12 speeches from colleagues from across the House, who raised some very important issues on behalf of their constituents. Only last Friday, some of my constituents too came to raise the matter with me.
In the course of my response, I hope to address the significant issues discussed: time to pay; retrospection; whether HMRC is going after the promoters; what my hon. Friend said about the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes; the numbers involved; and the difference between retroactive and retrospective. I will also give some detail on the sums of money that we anticipate will be raised through the measure.
The responsibility of Government is to assess critically the impact of any tax reform, and to ensure that it is structured and implemented in the best possible way.
Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab)
The Government say not only that the loan charge is designed to treat loans as income, but that if the loans—now income—are written off, they will be subject to inheritance tax because the loan will not be repaid. Numerous court and tribunal findings agree that the loans were loans, not income, yet the Government press ahead regardless. Does the Minister agree that that is completely wrong and unfair?
John Glen
In the course of my speech, I will address that point. I am happy for the hon. Gentleman to come back to me later if he feels that I have not done so.
To be clear, I am the Economic Secretary; the Financial Secretary wanted to be here but he is in the main Chamber for the Finance Bill, so I am here in his place.
I acknowledge the early-day motion tabled by Members. It has attracted 103 signatures, and I also acknowledge the concern throughout the House on this matter. The concerns expressed are for people who have used a disguised remuneration scheme, who expect to have outstanding loans in April 2019, and who will be subject to the charge. I recognise that the Government need to be clear about why we legislated for this charge, which received Royal Assent following a full debate during the Finance Bill process in 2016-17. I will outline the steps that the Government have taken to help those individuals who may be affected.
The Government believe that it is not fair to ordinary taxpayers, who pay their tax on time and in full, to allow people who have used tax avoidance schemes to get away with it. Disguised remuneration tax avoidance schemes are contrived arrangements that use loans, often paid through offshore trusts, to avoid paying income tax and national insurance contributions. The schemes may have involved provision of a loan with no intention whatever to repay it. I spoke to the Financial Secretary this morning, while preparing for the debate, and he said, “Earnings are earnings, and a loan is a loan,” and that is what the issue boils down to.
Gareth Snell
I understand the Minister’s point, but before he progresses with his speech, will he clarify whether he accepts what many Members have asked this afternoon-that those who undertook the scheme did so in good faith, and therefore that the people ultimately in trouble for this system are those who perpetrated it, not those who signed up to it?
John Glen
I am happy to concede that for the 50,000 indivi-duals affected, there are obviously responsibilities for those who promoted this. It is absolutely the case that HMRC is pursuing those individuals. They often promoted the scheme to large numbers of individuals. Five cases are before the courts—that seems a small number, but each one covers a large number of individuals—and there has been a judgment in one, with the other four cases still moving through the courts. It is not right to say that HMRC is not engaged with those who promoted the scheme.
Lyn Brown
I will be gentle, because the Minister knows, as I do, the peope who are really responsible in our respective parties for this particular piece of legislation. I would, however, be grateful if he takes on the responsibility to ensure that we are written to about the actions that the Government take against the enablers.
Tommy Sheppard
Will the Minister confirm, either now or in any such letter, the Treasury’s objectives in pursuing those companies? Is it to take retrospective action against them to try to recover the great volume of money they received from selling those schemes?
John Glen
HMRC’s objective will be to secure the money owed, as per the rules of the tax system. HMRC has enormous power to levy charges of up to £1 million on those individuals who are not complying.
The schemes may have involved provision of a loan with no intention to repay it. The recipients of such payments enjoyed them no differently from the way any of us use our normal income. As such, in the eyes of HMRC, the payments have always been taxable.
I have acknowledged the comments of colleagues who said that the charge on disguised remuneration loans will apply to loans that were made as far back as 1999. It is fair to say that the schemes were never permitted. They were defective, going back to then.
Mr John Hayes
We now learn from the Minister that HMRC knew that the schemes were inappropriate from the outset. So is he saying that HMRC is not malevolent but indiligent, inefficient and ineffective? If HMRC knew that, and the schemes were mainstream for 20 years, why is it acting only now?
John Glen
I thank my right hon. Friend for his point. Every scheme will be taken individually. They were not one single scheme that was developed. It is for HMRC to open cases on the disguised schemes, which it has done—going back many years on some of them—and it will take action as appropriate. A concern has been raised in the debate about not determining an outcome, and my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe raised the concern about the implication that, when a tax avoidance scheme has been disclosed, that is somehow a verification or an endorsement of it. That is a misleading perception that has been left, and something for which HMRC should be accountable.
Mr Hayes
Forgive me. I will not intervene more than twice on the Minister, because I know he wants to make progress. I have always regarded HMRC as an efficient organisation that goes about its business properly. Is this not about the Government? The Government took a view about all this and I suspect that, although it may be true that HMRC is implementing Government policy, this is really about the Government changing their mind. That is what we are asking for.
John Glen
The Government that my right hon. Friend was part of and, I believe, a Minister in at the time the legislation was passed. [Interruption.] Let me make some progress.
Although the measure subjects the loans to a tax charge, that 2019 charge applies only to current loan balances and does not arise until April 2019. Recipients of loans can still repay outstanding balances in full or settle with HMRC. The legislation is not retrospective because it sets out Parliament’s intention: payments subject to the loan charge should always have been, and will be, subject to tax. The announcement in the 2016 spring Budget by the former Member for Tatton provided scheme users with a three-year period in which to repay disguised remuneration loans or agree a settlement with HMRC to avoid the charge.
Kirstene Hair (Angus) (Con)
Nearly 50% of those who are liable for the loan charge have not had any communication with HMRC since June 2016. Some of them are my constituents. Does the Minister agree that HMRC must accelerate its communications, to take that cloud of uncertainty away from those who are affected?
John Glen
I thank my hon. Friend for that point. There have been 24,000 contacts with HMRC. The number of telephone calls has increased from 2,000 to 4,000 a week and extra resources have been made available by HMRC, but I am happy to take up any individual cases that my hon. Friend may wish to bring to me.
In the view of the Government and of HMRC, the payments were always taxable as income, and the new legislation reiterates and formalises that stance.
Anna Turley (Redcar) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister is being very generous with his time. That final point reiterates the issue here. I have constituents who are employed in the construction industry and when they were taken on by the agencies—the umbrella companies—through which they had to go to access the work, they simply were not aware of their liabilities and were not made aware of them. This is a natural justice issue. The policy is harming people who are not particularly well paid, have done everything right and are being unfairly punished.
Several hon. Members rose—
John Glen
Let me make some more progress or, despite the time I have, I will not get to the end of my speech and I want to address the points raised.
Anyone who has been involved in legal action will be well aware that it can be protracted and expensive for all concerned. Agreeing a settlement with HMRC allows taxpayers to move on, and out of avoidance for good. In most cases, any users of schemes will be better off approaching HMRC and agreeing a settlement rather than waiting for the charge next April, and HMRC is encouraging anyone worried about being able to pay to get in touch as soon as possible.
Joseph Johnson
On the point about taxpayers wanting to move on, several of my constituents have requested settlement sums from HMRC but have not received a response, notwithstanding the passage of several months. That is prolonging their uncertainty and anxiety. Will the Minister take steps to ensure that HMRC responds to those requests for settlement as rapidly as possible?
John Glen
I certainly will. I took the precaution of speaking to the Financial Secretary again this morning, and I would like to clarify that, with the time-to-pay arrangements, the five-year period will automatically be put in place for those with incomes of less than £50,000. For those with larger incomes, there is an opportunity for dialogue with HMRC. With respect to individuals who have not had that settlement made known, I will be happy, as we all will as constituency MPs, to take those cases up with HMRC.
HMRC is helping thousands of scheme users to get out of avoidance for good.
John Glen
Just one moment. It will consider all personal circumstances to agree a manageable and sustainable payment plan wherever possible, and it has recently announced simplified payment terms for individuals looking to settle their tax affairs before 2019.
I want to address another issue of the debate. Those who oppose the legislation have made claims that the loan charge will bankrupt public sector workers, including teachers, nurses and social workers. It is my understanding that 1,500, or 3%, of individuals will be involved in the health and education sectors but that most of the scheme users worked in professional services. The average salary of the scheme users was £66,000, which is considerably higher than the average annual wage.
Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)
There is no time, Minister. You have 40 seconds.
Kirsty Blackman
I have contacted HMRC on behalf of constituents and have been told that it cannot talk to me about those individuals and that they will get an answer by 5 April. That is not helpful.
John Glen
I obviously cannot respond on an individual’s situation, but what I will say is that disguised remuneration schemes are complex and contrived and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe said, fail the “too good to be true” test.
Although the Financial Secretary and I have tremendous sympathy for those facing large tax bills, it is unfair to let people get away with not paying the tax they owe. There is support for people who have used the schemes and now find themselves in difficult situations, which require those affected to approach HMRC and bring the matter to a close. I will now allow my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe to make some concluding remarks.
Mr Baker
I am grateful to everyone who has come to the debate and participated. The debate has overwhelmingly avoided straying into the partisan, for which I am grateful. I listened carefully to all the speeches and I do not think anyone stood up and sided with those who think it is legitimate to be paid through loans that have been made with no intention of repayment—no one stood on that side of the argument. What we have seen is how people have been drawn, or even driven, into such schemes, and that is the heart of the injustice.
We have heard stories of human suffering that would melt any heart, which brings us on to the heart of the matter—the rule of law. Once again, my hon. Friend the Minister has earned my admiration, because he seems to get all the Treasury’s toughest gigs. I sometimes wonder whether he should have been promoted to the Department for Exiting the European Union for a little break.
Mr Baker
He will have heard the response of people present when he explained that the measure is not retrospective, and I really hope that the Treasury goes away, looks at the measure again and eliminates retrospection. When people have acted in good faith under advice and end up subject to injustice, we must uphold the principle of the rule of law. Some might then say that they had got away with it, but sometimes we have to say, “While we don’t stand on their side and we accept that it was not Parliament’s intent, we respect that there is a price to be paid for upholding the rule of law so that in the end we can preserve human liberty and justice.”
Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).