Oral Answers to Questions
Joanna Cherry Excerpts(1 year, 2 months ago)
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John Lamont
I am happy to work with all colleagues across the United Kingdom to advance the fishing industry, and I am happy to meet the hon. Member to discuss how we do that together.
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack)
Illicit drugs destroy lives and devastate communities. The United Kingdom Government’s 10-year drug strategy sets out ambitious plans, backed by a record £3 billion over three years, to tackle the supply of illicit drugs and build a world-class system of treatment and recovery. This is a UK-wide strategy, and there are no plans to devolve drugs policy to the Scottish Government.
Joanna Cherry
The Lord Advocate has announced that she is not going to prosecute drug users for simple possession offences committed within a pilot safer drugs consumption facility. Both the Home Affairs Committee of this House and the Scottish Affairs Committee have recommended that the UK Government support such a pilot in Glasgow by creating a legislative pathway under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 that would enable such a facility to operate, or by devolving the power to the Scottish Government. Both cross-party Committees of this House are very clear that the evidence shows that those measures could be lifesaving, so when will the Secretary of State act to save lives in Scotland by persuading his Government to drop their intransigence on this issue?
Mr Jack
It was disappointing that the Scottish Government were not prepared to work with the UK Government on Project ADDER. That offer was made with supporting funding. The E in ADDER is for “enforcement”. I believe the police and the Procurator Fiscal Service should be enforcing the laws in Scotland, not decriminalising drugs, because enforcement helps to drive people to health solutions.
Cost of Living and Brexit
Joanna Cherry Excerpts(1 year, 5 months ago)
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Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP)
I beg to move, Committee Number of Members Business and Trade 3 Energy and Net Zero 3 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs 3 Health and Social Care 3 Home Affairs 3 Levelling Up, Housing and Communities 3 Northern Ireland Affairs 5 Scottish Affairs 5 Transport 3 Treasury 3 Welsh Affairs 5 Women and Equalities 3 Work and Pensions 3
That this House agrees that increases in the cost of living are having a detrimental impact on businesses and families across Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom; notes that the United Kingdom’s exit from the European Union has played a significant role in driving those increases; further notes that the devolved administrations do not possess the full financial powers required to effectively mitigate the increases in the cost of living in the devolved nations; accepts that finding solutions to the cost of living crisis deserves dedicated parliamentary time to investigate all matters relating to increases in prices and of the contribution of exiting the European Union and of Westminster economic policy to those increases; and resolves that the following shall be a Standing Order of the House:
Cost of Living Committee
1. There shall be a select committee, to be called the Cost of Living Committee, to examine the causes of and possible solutions to matters related to the cost of living in the United Kingdom, the consequences of the United Kingdom leaving the European Union and the cost of living, how the effect of changes in the cost of living affects the economy, and other connected matters.
2. The committee shall be chaired by a Member from the second largest Opposition Party and shall additionally consist of 22 Members from the Government party and 22 Members from opposition parties, drawn from the following Committees
3. The committee shall have power—
a. to send for persons, papers and records, to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House, to adjourn from place to place, and to report from time to time; and
b. to appoint specialist advisers to supply information which is not readily available or to elucidate matters of complexity within the committee’s order of reference.
4. Unless the House otherwise orders, each Member nominated to the committee shall continue to be a member of it for the remainder of the Parliament.
5. The committee shall have power to appoint a sub-committee, which shall have power to send for persons, papers and records, to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House, to adjourn from place to place, and to report to the committee from time to time.
6. The committee shall have power to report from time to time the evidence taken before the sub-committee.
7. The committee shall have power to order the attendance of any Member before the committee and to require that specific documents or records in the possession of a Member relating to its inquiries be laid before the committee or any sub-committee.
8. The quorum of the sub-committee shall be eleven.
The cost of living crisis is the No. 1 issue for most of our constituents: how to keep a roof over their head with the rising cost of mortgages or rent; how to put food on the table when food inflation in the UK is the highest in Europe; how to pay energy bills that double in just a year; and how to cope with overall inflation, which is far outstripping wage growth. It therefore deserves serious focus by this Parliament to find solutions. The Government are already patting themselves on the back that inflation has eased from 10.1% to 7.8%. Of course, that does not mean that prices are falling, just that they are increasing at a slightly slower rate.
There is no question but that the covid pandemic and the war in Ukraine have contributed to the current crisis—particularly through the latter’s impact on global energy prices—but the UK is the only G7 country not to have recovered to pre-pandemic economic health, and consumers in the UK have faced the biggest energy price rises in Europe.
Despite the current easing of the inflation rate, it is still higher than in the OECD, the EU and the US. So why does the UK have the highest inflation and the poorest growth projections among similar economies? It is simple—the disaster that dare not speak its name: Brexit. As we approach the seventh anniversary of the referendum, one of its key architects may have just left the stage, but Brexit’s disastrous legacy will impact people across the nations of the UK for years to come.
I know as a doctor that the first step for someone in dealing with any problem is to admit that they have one, but both the Government and the Labour party appear to be in complete denial about the contribution of Brexit to the cost of living crisis.
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
The Labour party is keen to regain seats in Scotland from the Scottish National party. We obviously hope they do not, but why does my hon. Friend think the Labour party is ignoring the impact of Brexit even in Scotland, when the overwhelming position of the Scots is that they want to remain in the European Union?
Dr Whitford
I thank my hon. and learned Friend for her contribution. It is quite clear: we saw the discomfort of the Labour party on Brexit for quite a number of years, because its approach to Brexit had flip-flopped backwards and forwards, so it simply avoids the topic.
Until recently, people would think that there had been an omertà in the mainstream media when discussing the UK’s poor economic performance. Despite previously campaigning against Brexit, the Labour leader, the right hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer), is now clear that he will not consider rejoining the EU, the customs union or the single market, yet he claims that he can somehow reduce the trade friction that has cut exports by 15% and cost 4% of GDP.
Just as Brexiteers claim the problem is just that Brexit is not Brexity enough, we now have Labour claiming that they will “make Brexit work”. It cannot work, but if the Labour leader wants to reduce some of the damage of Brexit, he should support the idea of a Committee to identify proposals that could be put to the EU prior to the review of the trade and co-operation agreement in 2026. Otherwise, what is the plan—close his eyes, click his red heels together and make a wish? Talk about not reading the room.
Just as polls show that a majority across the UK recognise that Brexit is a mess and would support rejoining the EU, the supposed official Opposition have lashed themselves to the mast of the floundering Tory Brexit ship. I am not quite sure why they are called the official Opposition when they do not seem to do much opposing and just go along with the policies of this Tory Government, whether that is on Brexit, immigration, outsourcing the NHS in England to private companies or denying the right of the Scottish people to choose their own future.
Labour may have abandoned almost all its previous pledges, and does not offer much real change after the next election, but the politicians who have caused the current damage to the UK economy are those with their bahookies squarely planted on the Government Benches. Tory austerity may initially have made the Treasury balance sheet look better, but 13 years of benefit cuts and public sector pay freezes have sucked money out of local economies, leading to dead high streets and rising poverty, particularly among children, pensioners and disabled people.
Austerity also meant that health and care services were already struggling when covid hit, and the workforce shortages that hamper all four UK health services have been exacerbated by the loss of freedom of movement, meaning that they are all struggling to catch up on the backlog.
The cost of energy is a major contributor to the cost of living crisis, but while global energy prices have risen due to the Ukraine war, the problem has been exacerbated by the Tories’ policy over decades. It was their poster girl, Mrs Thatcher, who put the profits of oil, gas and electricity into private hands. That has left the UK fully exposed to global price rises, despite the UK and Scotland’s energy potential. We are unlike France, with its nationalised power supplier, which has been able limit price increases to 4%. The UK has been unable to do that.
While the energy support payments were welcome, they had a limited impact on energy bills, which had doubled in a year. The UK Government did not follow other European countries such as Germany, Spain, Ireland or the Netherlands in substantially cutting VAT on energy bills, even though rising prices means that such a VAT cut could have been revenue-neutral.
Brexiteers actually promised cheaper food—it is hard to believe—but that has turned out to be a complete crock, with food inflation in the UK at more than 19%, the highest in Europe. The costs of basic foods and supermarket brands are rising even faster, meaning that those on lower incomes face a dramatic surge in food costs, with more people resorting to food banks or missing meals. Almost 30% of the UK’s food comes from the EU, so there will be another surge in food prices next winter when the UK introduces full customs checks on foodstuffs being imported from the EU.
Oral Answers to Questions
Joanna Cherry Excerpts(1 year, 9 months ago)
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Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack)
I realise that many colleagues on the Benches diagonally opposite are somewhat preoccupied with the contest to become the leader of the Scottish National party and Scotland’s First Minister. In my view, this is a real opportunity for a new First Minister to reset the relationship with the United Kingdom Government, to work constructively with us and to make life better for the people of Scotland. We need a First Minister who puts Scotland’s interests above the nationalists’ interests. My offer to all those running in the contest is this: the United Kingdom Government stand ready to work with you, and that will be the real win for improving the lives of people in Scotland.
My assessment is that retained EU law reform will have a positive impact on Scotland by boosting the competitiveness of the economy while respecting devolution and maintaining high standards. Reform will ensure that regulations meet the needs of the United Kingdom, and will provide the opportunity for us to become the best regulated economy in the world, encouraging prosperity, business innovation and—
Mr Jack
When it comes to utter drivel, it should not be a competition, but the hon. Member has taken it to a new height. What utter drivel that was! Workers’ rights are entirely protected; in fact, they are being enhanced by this Government, and they are not dependent on EU membership.
Joanna Cherry
The negative impacts of Brexit are already visible, with food prices up 6% and a third of the companies that formerly exported to the EU giving up, owing to customs paperwork—and that includes companies in my constituency. Does the Secretary of State not recognise that it is Brexit that is causing more red tape for businesses, and that diverging from EU standards further under this much-criticised Bill will further exacerbate trade friction between the UK and the continent?
Mr Jack
No, because I believe that we have a comprehensive trade agreement with the EU, and we are working out and ironing out the problems. We have been very successful in doing that, particularly for the fishing industry. We also have before us huge opportunities: not just the trade deals with Australia, New Zealand and others, but the comprehensive and progressive agreement for trans-Pacific partnership, which will cover almost half the world’s trade and will provide a huge opportunity for Scotland’s food and drink industry.
Scottish Referendum Legislation: Supreme Court Decision
Joanna Cherry Excerpts(2 years ago)
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Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
The United Kingdom Supreme Court has answered a legal question this morning, not a political one. The lesson of history is that a nation’s exercise of its right to self-determination can be delayed, but not denied. Can the right hon. Gentleman answer the question that the Prime Minister could not or would not answer: if people living in Scotland continue to elect a majority of pro-independence Members of the Scottish Parliament and MPs who support a second independence referendum, what is the democratic route to realising that mandate?
Scottish Independence and the Scottish Economy
Joanna Cherry Excerpts(2 years ago)
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Ian Murray
I have a lot of respect for the hon. Gentleman—I genuinely have, and I say that with all sincerity—but I believe that comparisons between Scotland and Northern Ireland are not only unhelpful but, to some, offensive. The purpose of the Good Friday agreement is to create peace on the island of Ireland, and I think that trying to superimpose the Good Friday agreement on the issue of Scottish independence will be seen as it should be seen, as unhelpful and historically inaccurate. [Interruption.] All the SNP Members are shouting, but one of the Labour party’s proudest achievements in office was peace in Northern Ireland. If they think that the Labour party’s position is inconsistent with a position of wanting to keep the UK together, they are simply incorrect. We on the Labour Benches will do nothing—absolutely nothing—to undermine the Good Friday agreement.
As an adjunct and a footnote to that, what SNP Members are proposing in their proposition for an independent Scotland will create the same problems at the border at Berwick as we have in Northern Ireland with the Northern Ireland protocol, and they know that to be the case.
Scotland Act 1998: Role of the Lord Advocate
Joanna Cherry Excerpts(3 years, 4 months ago)
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Kenny MacAskill
Absolutely. There is a clear perception of there being far from equanimity or, indeed, even balance by the Crown.
Now James Wolffe has stepped down as Lord Advocate, replaced by Dorothy Bain. Ms Bain has an illustrious record of service and I wish her well, but the structural flaw remains. Personnel changes, no matter how merited, cannot resolve the fundamental flaw of a lack of separation of powers. The impartiality of the Crown is an imperative in a democracy. It must be seen to act in the public interest, not that of the Government or their friends or allies. The coterie who surrounded Mr Wolffe and who were instrumental in driving these policies and actions, often against the wishes and views of long-serving staff, still remain—in particular, the Crown Agent, Mr Harvie, the senior civil servant. Unusually among senior Crown staff, his career has not simply been as a procurator fiscal in Scotland, but has included service in and secondment to British Government Departments.
The situation is now critical as a police investigation has opened into the SNP’s finances. The party leader is the First Minister and her husband is chief executive. This situation would be intolerable in any public body or private company, or even in a bowling or social club in any Scottish town. The idea that the chief steward could be the spouse of the treasurer would draw derision and rejection, but not so in Scotland’s governing party. Worsening that further is the fact that all three members of the SNP finance and audit committee resigned from their roles when refused information by the chief executive. That has been followed by the resignation of the elected treasurer, the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Douglas Chapman), for similar reasons. Given what has happened, can the Scottish public be assured that the investigation will have access to all information, and that any decision to prosecute or not will be made on legal criteria and in the interests of justice?
Protocols have failed, been breached or even abused. Interim steps can be taken to separate the roles. Perhaps there should not just be a recusal, as there no doubt will be by the Lord Advocate, but, as with the Rangers FC investigation, the bringing in of an external judicial adviser. Moreover, the Lord Advocate has recused herself from involvement in the Rangers FC civil proceedings. Maybe she could recuse herself from all direct Government involvement. An in-house legal department exists. The duty to represent the Government in court and pursue constitutional challenges remains, but that can be dealt with by external counsel.
Change and a separation of powers there must be. The twin roles of the Lord Advocate in prosecution and in advising Government are an historical anachronism, and are entirely unsuited to a modern democracy. As a former Justice Secretary, as well as someone who has practised law in Scotland for over 20 years and cherishes our distinct system, I am appalled at what has happened, and I know that is echoed in legal circles.
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I am not going to comment on any of the particular cases that he has mentioned, but is he aware that the First Minister of Scotland has recognised that there is a case for reform and does he agree that all that is really needed is for this House to pass a Bill to amend the Scotland Act to give the Scottish Parliament the power to make alterations to the role of Lord Advocate? The Scottish Parliament could then properly consider what I think he is suggesting—that is, separating the position into roles akin to the Attorney General and the Director of Public Prosecutions in England. I stress that I am not making any comment on the cases that he has mentioned. I am simply drawing to his attention the fact that the First Minister has recognised the case for reform and that this might be the best way to do it.
Kenny MacAskill
Recognition is one thing; progress is quite another. We are now in July. Holyrood is in recess. We have had an election. And we are still to see any action other than rhetoric from the Scottish Government. It is entirely inadequate. I do accept what the hon. and learned Member says—that it should be for the Scottish Parliament to decide what the structure should be. I think it has to be a structure that will mirror most democracies south of the border or indeed elsewhere. It should be for the Scottish Parliament to decide, but they have to show greater willingness.
I call on the Minister to engage with the Scottish Government as a matter of urgency so that changes can be made to the 1998 Act to provide for a complete separation of powers between the head of the prosecution service and the senior government legal adviser. Every modern democracy does so and so must Scotland. The failures have been too many and the risks are too great, for justice has not only to be done, but must be seen to be done.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Duguid)
I thank the hon. Member for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill) and congratulate him on calling this Adjournment debate. I know that he and others—he in particular—have taken a keen interest in this subject. I am grateful for the opportunity to hear his views and those of others on this important constitutional issue, particularly in the light of the hon. Member’s former role as Cabinet Secretary for Justice in the Scottish Government.
I recognise the concerns that the hon. Member raised during his speech regarding the dual role of the Lord Advocate, both current and historical—we always enjoy a bit of Scottish history when we hear the hon. Member speak in this place—as the senior legal adviser and the most senior Law Officer. The hon. Member referenced specific cases. I hope he understands that it would be inappropriate for me or any Minister to comment specifically on those cases at this point. Although the UK Government would have a role to play in any changes to the role of the Lord Advocate, I stress that it would be inappropriate for me to speculate on what action should be taken at this time. I will therefore provide some context on the role of the Lord Advocate before I explain the set process that any changes must go through before the UK Government can take a position.
Joanna Cherry
I hear that the Minister is not going to speculate or set out a plan, but does he agree that one route might be for this Parliament to pass a Bill amending the Scotland Act so that the dual role of the Lord Advocate could be revisited by the Scottish Parliament? Of course, under the current Scotland Act, the role of the Lord Advocate is reserved to this Parliament. Does he agree that one potential way forward would be to pass very straightforward Bill that gave the power to change the role to the Scottish Parliament?
David Duguid
I will be coming to that point in a bit more detail later in my response. Although that is possible in theory, I will explain later why in practice the UK Government would choose not to go directly down that route. If the hon. and learned Lady will forgive me, I will come back to that in a minute or two.
The context of the role of the Lord Advocate is the Scotland Act 1998, which I will refer to, for brevity, as the 1988 Act. Section 48 of that Act makes provision regarding the appointment of the Lord Advocate and their removal from office. The 1988 Act itself came about after 74% of voters in the 1997 devolution referendum were in favour of a Scottish Parliament. The subsequent ’98 Act devolved significant powers to Scotland and legislated for the establishment of a Scottish Executive, later known as the Scottish Government, and a Parliament. The Scottish Parliament took responsibility in areas such as education, law enforcement, health and social care, and local government, among others, but there are many others that remain the prerogative of the UK Parliament through schedule 5 to the Act. There are too many to list, but a few examples would be foreign affairs, international trade, defence, national security, energy and, of course, the constitution.
Since 1998, there have been two major adjustments to the devolution settlement, the Scotland Acts of 2012 and 2016. The 2012 Act represented the first transfer of fiscal powers from Westminster to the Scottish Parliament following devolution. After the independence referendum of 2014, where the clear majority voted to stay in the Union, and after the Smith Commission, the 2016 Act was passed to transfer a range of tax and welfare powers to the Scottish Parliament. These Acts have created one of the most powerful devolved Parliaments in the world and give the Scottish Government power over numerous aspects of Scotland’s governance.
As hon. Members will be aware, the Lord Advocate is the Scottish Government’s most senior Law Officer and principal legal adviser—that is the topic of this debate. Section 48 of the 1998 Act, in addition to providing for the appointment of the Lord Advocate and their removal from office, also makes provision for the independence of the Lord Advocate in their capacity as head of the systems of criminal prosecution and investigation of deaths in Scotland. This was to ensure the traditional independence of the Lord Advocate when taking decisions related to those matters continued after they became a member of the Scottish Government.
The Lord Advocate’s role as head of the systems of criminal prosecution and investigation of deaths is, in section 29 of the 1998 Act, protected from modification by an Act of the Scottish Parliament. The hon. Member for East Lothian has mentioned the limitation on legislative competence in section 29, and any formal separation of responsibilities would require legislation. Although the UK Government have the power to bring forward legislation to make this change, in practice we would want to ensure the Scottish Government have first put their proposals to the Scottish Parliament for scrutiny.
Scotland: General Election and Constitutional Future
Joanna Cherry Excerpts(3 years, 8 months ago)
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Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP) [V]
I suspect that even the most ardent Unionist would find it hard to disagree with the basic proposition that a country in a voluntary political union should at all times have the right to choose its constitutional future. The real question is when Scotland should be able to revisit the decision made in September 2014. British politicians telling us that now is not the time tends to mean not ever, so let us analyse what “once in a generation” means in political terms.
The six and a half years that have passed since the 2014 referendum have been tumultuous. We have had three general elections, three Prime Ministers and a UK-wide referendum on EU membership, followed by a serious push for a second referendum on the same topic from people such as the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray), who is now so averse to a second independence referendum. Notwithstanding those efforts, Britain has left the European Union and now we are suffering from a global pandemic. That is a lot more political change than normally happens in the span of a generation. The result of all this turmoil is that more and more people living in Scotland want to revisit the decision made in 2014.
England and Scotland chose markedly different paths on Brexit. That, and the fact that people have more confidence in the Scottish Government’s handling of the pandemic than the British Government’s, are major factors in the change of heart taking place in Scotland. Perhaps the biggest problem that the UK Government and the official Opposition have in attempting to stop another independence referendum is the existence of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. That Act provides that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland may allow repeat referendums on Irish unity with only a seven-year interval in between. Even allowing for the very different context, if seven years between referendums on the question of whether to leave the United Kingdom is acceptable for Northern Ireland, why is it not acceptable for Scotland? I would like the Minister to address that directly when he sums up today.
The British Government have pressed ahead with their constitutional priorities regardless of the pandemic and its economic fallout, so why should not the Scottish Government? The need to rebuild our economy and our society in the wake of the pandemic provides an impetus to rethink our priorities. If we do not take radical steps now, there will be no change and we will go back to where we were before, which was not a sustainable place. In order to transform Scotland, we need full control over all the decisions that affect us, not just limited powers to tinker around the edges. Independence for Scotland is not an end in itself, but a means to ensuring that the vital decisions about how we run our economy and our society are taken close to home, so that we can do things differently and better.
Claim of Right for Scotland
Joanna Cherry Excerpts(6 years, 4 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
May I begin by sharing the good wishes expressed towards George Reid, the former presiding officer of the Scottish Parliament? I voted for George Reid to be presiding officer in 1999 and again in 2003 because he was a man of substance. George Reid was not a man who would have come to this Chamber as an MP and dished out abuse to another Member and then failed to take an intervention. He was not a man who would have come to this Chamber and distorted the words of a fellow MP so that he could put forward his case. He was a man of principle who argued—and I am sure still argues—for independence on the basis of principle, not of deceit, abuse and misrepresentation.
This debate is a missed opportunity. We could have been discussing the future of Scotland. We could have spent the time talking about our plans to realise the sea of opportunity presented to our fishermen by leaving the EU. We could have talked about city deals, or our industrial strategy. Instead, we are having this debate, which says nothing about the future of Scotland but everything about the Scottish National party and their obsession with independence. They are like a broken record. It is less than two years since Parliament debated the claim of right at the behest of the SNP. In the interim, we have had an electoral test in Scotland in the form of a general election. The result, as I recall, was that the SNP lost 21 seats and that there were 12 Conservative gains. That debate was a charade then—an excuse to talk about independence—and it is a charade today. But what else should we expect?
The leader of the SNP Westminster group, the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford), set out his position very clearly exactly a week ago. Nothing else matters to the SNP—not improving Scotland’s sluggish economy, and certainly not preparing Scotland for Brexit. For the right hon. Gentleman, Brexit is nothing more than a
“clear road map to a second independence referendum”.
That is his stated priority.
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
The right hon. Gentleman is arguing that this debate is all about a second independence referendum and about the SNP. Can I ask him this: does he agree with article 1 of the charter of the United Nations?
David Mundell
I am sure that I do agree with article 1 of the charter of the United Nations. I believe in people’s right to self-determination, and I believe that the people of Scotland set out clearly what they wanted in the 2014 independence referendum. The problem is that the SNP cannot accept that most inconvenient of truths for them. The people of Scotland exercised their right to choose their future in 2014. They were very clear that they wished to remain in the United Kingdom. Shamefully, the SNP are determined to ignore them—the people they claim to represent. If the SNP truly believed in the rights of the Scottish people, would they not accept the result? Would they not listen to the Scottish people?
The claim of right in 1989 played an important part in the campaign for a Scottish Parliament. It was about devolution, and its authors were explicit in their aims. As we have already heard, the Scottish National party acknowledged as much when they refused to sign it. They refused to sign it because it had nothing to do with their own cause of independence. So in this debate we have not only the claim of right to consider; we also have the claim of rewriting history. That is a claim that has often been levelled at the SNP.
Rather than misrepresenting the claim of right as a means of justifying a second, unwanted independence referendum, the SNP should reflect on what it really means. It means that the UK Government respected the right of the people of Scotland to choose whether to remain part of the UK. It means that we worked with the Scottish Government to facilitate the referendum in 2014. It means that, together, we delivered a legal, fair and decisive vote. The decision of the people of Scotland—reaffirming their desire to have two Parliaments and two Governments—should be respected.
David Mundell
Not at this stage.
The UK Government have consistently supported devolution. After the 2014 vote, we established the Smith commission with a view to expanding the powers of the Scottish Parliament. We delivered Lord Smith’s recommendations in full, adding wide-ranging new powers over tax and welfare to the devolution settlement and establishing Holyrood as one of the most powerful devolved legislatures in the world. We are committed to working closely with the Scottish Government to transfer the last of the new powers smoothly and securely, and devolution will be strengthened further as we leave the EU and powers that have been held in Brussels for 40 years flow to Holyrood.
It is surely a strange kind of power grab that leaves the grabbed with more power than ever. I have been disappointed, but not in the slightest bit surprised, by the SNP’s power grab scaremongering, their hot air and their grandstanding stunts. However, I was surprised when the whole confection of the alleged power grab was shot down by none other than Nicola Sturgeon during her reshuffle last week. She said, “I need more Ministers because of all the extra powers that the Scottish Government must exercise.” It was incredible.
The UK Government are working closely with the Scottish Government as powers return from Brussels, and I do not think that more than 80 powers returning directly to the Scottish Parliament should be scoffed at. It is a real opportunity for the Scottish Parliament to continue to shape what is best for Scotland. Throughout the process we have followed, and will follow, the Sewel convention—one of the pillars of the devolution settlement. It is a cast-iron commitment and not difficult to make because, unlike the SNP, we believe in devolution.
The people of Scotland voted for devolution in 1997. We accepted their decision and embraced devolution. The people of Scotland reaffirmed their support for remaining in the United Kingdom in 2014. In every election to the Scottish Parliament since 1999, a majority of voters have backed parties that support devolution. How much democracy does the SNP need before it gets the message?
Douglas Ross
I am very grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am coming to that, but it is important that the Secretary of State for Scotland and the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland discussed the key issues that we should be debating today.
Before I move on, I will refer to a comment made by the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber. He said that Conservative Members should be praising the NHS. Well, I would have liked to have a debate about the NHS today, because I am quite happy to praise—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) expresses great displeasure about that, but can she understand my anger today as the Member of Parliament for Moray who got a phone call from NHS Grampian to be told that for the next 12 to 18 months, because of the way that the SNP has overseen the NHS in Scotland, pregnant women will have to travel to Aberdeen or Inverness to give birth? [Interruption.] That is an important issue, and whether we are in this place or in Holyrood, we should not try to talk—[Interruption.] The hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) should not try to talk me down, for I am standing up for pregnant women who are faced with these concerns.
Joanna Cherry
The hon. Gentleman has just been busy telling us how much he loves this place, but if he wants to debate the state of the Scottish NHS, he should be in the Scottish Parliament. Does he not understand the difference between reserved and devolved powers?
Douglas Ross
Again, this is the reaction we get from the SNP. If we disagree with SNP Members or say something they do not like, we are told that we do not understand things—so I am too thick to understand what is reserved and what is devolved. What I do understand is that I am a representative of my constituency, and when my constituents come to me raising these concerns, I should be able to shout—and loudly shout—about them in this Chamber, as colleagues could in Holyrood.
I will come to what we are debating: the claim of right—[Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber took 55 minutes to make his speech on this matter and I have eight minutes to make mine. It is important that we consider the motion. The claim of right is very clear and we all support it. It says that the Scottish people are sovereign and can choose the Parliament that best suits their needs. We gave them that opportunity in 2014, when the right hon. Gentleman, the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West and all the other SNP Members campaigned and voted for Scotland to be separated from the rest of the United Kingdom, and I, other Conservative Members, and people across Scotland and the UK, campaigned and voted for Scotland to remain an integral part of the United Kingdom. That decision has been taken. I went into the polling station in Moray and went to the count, knowing, I thought, that it was a once-in-a-generation event, because that was what we were promised by the former leader of the SNP and by its current leader.
But that is not good enough for SNP Members, because they are obsessed by independence. They will only speak about independence. They will not speak about healthcare, about education—about important issues for my Moray constituents and for Scotland. They are talking Scotland down by obsessing about independence rather than standing up for their constituents.
Stephen Kerr
Of course, it is not the 1689 claim of right that is being debated today, but the 1989 one. The two are closely related as they both make reference to sovereignty resting squarely with the people—and I will vote for the motion tonight. These ideas build on the work of George Buchanan and the idea of sovereignty imbued with the righteous principle of vox populi, vox Dei.
The claim of right is specific and relates to the establishment of a Scottish Assembly, as it was then called—a promise delivered by the referendum of 1997, which returned a resounding yes vote. The principle is extendable, but it requires careful consideration. The principle of popular sovereignty must be used carefully. We should always seek to protect the views and interests of minorities. We do not have to look back very far in our history to see how popular sentiment has been used to justify some of the worst acts of oppression against minorities. Let us not forget the 85% of Scots who opposed the recommendations of the Wolfenden report in 1957, compared with nearly 51% in England. The fear expressed in popular will led to homosexuality in Scotland remaining illegal until 1980.
I belong to a Church that, historically, has seen a great deal of persecution as a result of fear, misunderstanding and prejudice. I understand only too well the prejudices that can be used by politicians to incite bigotry. When politicians feed on our worst fears and play to the crowd, they whip up a monster that is often uncontrollable, and do so with the excuse of projecting the popular will. I saw that last week with bigotry expressed against my constituents, especially those who voted for me, with the so-called All Under One Banner march in Stirling being led by a banner that stated, “Tory Scum Out”. That parade was attended by elected Members of the Scottish Parliament and, I think, of this place, too.
Joanna Cherry
The hon. Gentleman mentioned that the majority of Scots in the ’50s opposed the Wolfenden report and seemed to make that an argument against popular sovereignty. However, did not the majority of Members in this House oppose the emancipation of homosexual men for many years? Was it not human rights that brought about that emancipation and adherence to the convention on human rights, which his party seemed to oppose? It is not about popular sovereignty and parliamentary sovereignty—it is about the rule of law.
Stephen Kerr
I think the hon. and learned Lady knows full well the point that I am trying to make. [Interruption.] Well, it should not worry her.
As politicians, it is our job to lead well, not pander to people’s worst instincts, and to protect the principle that minority views and opinions must be respected. We have to remember that we are here, not to follow instructions from our constituents, but to lead. We have to make the case for a better country, a more tolerant country and a country that respects all. The representative democracy that we have in our country is worth preserving. It is representative democracy that has gone against popular sentiment in leading social change in our country, and long may it continue to do so. However, the popular will must always be in our mind.
Policy making by referendum is impractical. It does not provide an opportunity to secure real social change and poses a risk to the protection of minorities. In the history of our country, we have had an unprecedented number of referendums that have been constitutional in nature. Since 1975, people in Scotland have taken part in six referendums—on Europe; Scotland; Scotland; electoral reform; Scotland; and Europe. In other lands with different constitutional set-ups, referendums are more regular and more established in constitutional law. The Scottish referendum of 1997 still required a Westminster Act of Parliament to set up the Scottish Parliament.
This House is passing legislation to interpret and undertake the popular instruction to leave the European Union. The principle of respecting the will of the people is one that I agree with fundamentally. Whether it is the people of the United Kingdom voting to leave the EU, or the people of Scotland voting to keep the United Kingdom together, I agree wholeheartedly with the principle of respecting the will of the people. It is for Government to remember that, and the fact that the SNP Government in Edinburgh are agitating for a second independence referendum is a betrayal of the principle of popular sovereignty. When the people have spoken, as they did, it is time for Government to shut up.
When I speak to people in my constituency, they talk about indyref2 and tell me that they want the SNP to stop talking about that and get on with running the country. When they talk about leaving the EU, they tell me that the Government should get on with it. It is for Government to get on with it. This debate feels like the exact opposite. Debating what to most people are somewhat obscure constitutional matters seems like navel gazing, rather than focusing on the real work of government. People want the Government to work together and they want the Government to be effective, so they can get on with their lives unencumbered by constant politics. We need governmental systems that allow for this at all levels of government—Scottish, UK and local government—to work together to build a future for our country.
As I have said many times, Mr Speaker, I am confident that the work of our Stirling and Clackmannanshire city region deal, by showing a true partnership between Holyrood, Westminster and our local councils, will bear fruit. It will build a common set of economic objectives and do so by people working together. We need similar partnership working to be implemented elsewhere. On policy frameworks, we need systems that allow for decision making without gridlock. We need democratic oversight and efficient government. The rancour and the grievance that is generated by the SNP are unhelpful to all this. This debate is unhelpful to all this.
Let me conclude by saying that this is a debate on an obscure statement that has virtually no impact on the day-to-day lives of the constituents I am here to serve. No doubt many Members will find much to debate and discuss over the constitutional efficacy of the claim of right—whether popular sovereignty is right or wrong, drawing heavily on legal precedent and historical principles—but I would rather focus on improving the lives of my constituents and having a down-to-earth working Government. Let us focus on the pragmatic. Let us focus on getting on with the work of government. After all, is that not what our constituents would expect of us?
Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Con)
I will try to keep my points succinct tonight.
I think we lose the whole point of this place in some of our debates. It has been said by many Members across the House that we should be talking about the material issues, such as expenditure in Scotland, which we discussed last night in a debate that only two SNP MPs turned up for, or fishing, as others have said, but we are not; instead, we are back to the same old broken record from the SNP. What is really important is the original purpose of this Parliament: the unity of the United Kingdom that started with the vision of a Scottish king and was established in an Act of Union that abolished both the English and the Scottish Parliament and constituted this place, a United Kingdom Parliament where Members from across the entire country work together, pool their resources and make laws together for the benefit of people across the United Kingdom.
As the hundreds of years have passed, we have adapted. We saw that more powers had to be devolved. We have seen that power needs to be closer to the people who every day use the public services and goods being provided. It is disingenuous of SNP Members to say that somehow Scotland’s voice is not heard here. It is heard through their voices, through Conservative Members’ voices and through those of Liberal Democrat and Labour Members; it is heard right around this House—because this Parliament is Scotland’s Parliament as much as Holyrood is. That needs to be recognised.
My constituents need to stop being bullied by the SNP and pushed to make a choice between being Scottish and being British. They can be proud to be both, and they can have confidence in both their Parliaments to deliver their public services. I will take no lectures from the SNP about centralisation and ignoring the will of the people. A model diagram of centralisation is Edinburgh, where powers and moneys have been stripped away from our local councillors. We have record budget deficits in spite of underspends in the central Scottish budget, which in my constituency means music tuition being cut, health boards being stretched and public services suffering. And that is not because of Westminster; it is because of the Scottish National party. In fact, it should change its name. It is not the Scottish National party; it is the selfish National party. It has one reason for existing, and that is separation and division.
We are the Conservative and Unionist party. We have delivered on devolution, as we always promised, and we have stood up in this Chamber and challenged our own Ministers, as other Members have, on issues such as the EU to make sure we get the right deal on EU citizens, for example, or on the economic trade deal—and we will see how that comes out in October.
When we talk about devolution, we have to look at virtually every single policy area that has been devolved. After 20 years of devolution and 11 years of SNP management, every core area is underperforming. In education, we have gone from first to third in the United Kingdom, yet schools are still cascading through international rankings. In health, even after 20 years of devolution, we still have the lowest life expectancy in the United Kingdom.
Joanna Cherry
Does the hon. Gentleman accept the verdict of the BBC that Scotland under an SNP Government has the best-performing NHS in the United Kingdom?
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
Earlier in this debate, I intervened on the Secretary of State for Scotland to ask him whether he supported the principle of self-determination in article 1 of the charter of the United Nations, and I was very pleased that he said that he did. For those who need reminding, this is what article 1 says:
“All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.”
We have this motion today because of what has occurred since the people of Scotland last voted in relation to their self-determination, which was in 2014, because the implications of Brexit for Scotland’s economic, social and cultural development are enormous. That is why we wish to reassert today the right of the Scottish people to self-determination.
It has been very pleasing that there have been a number of significant concessions from other parties during this debate. The hon. Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) said that he accepts the sovereignty of the Scottish people. I am sure that that may come as a surprise to some of his colleagues from English constituencies who are not here this evening and who so often tell us that it is this Parliament and this Parliament alone that is sovereign, but he has made that concession so that is one concession from the Government Benches.
Joanna Cherry
I will take an intervention in a moment.
The hon. Member for Stirling (Stephen Kerr) has said that he will vote for this motion tonight. I was delighted to hear that and I very much hope that all his colleagues will go through the Lobby to vote for the motion. The support for this principle will become very important when the First Minister of Scotland once again approaches the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom looking for a section 30 order.
The hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Lesley Laird), who speaks for the official Opposition, also made an important concession, if I heard her correctly. I think that she said that if there was a mandate for another independence referendum in Scotland, she would support it. Well, that is very good. In fact, it is music to my ears because there is already a mandate for another independence referendum in Scotland. It comes from the democratically elected Scottish Parliament in which, in the light of the Brexit vote, the SNP and the Greens together voted to give the First Minister of Scotland a mandate—[Interruption.] Let me finish my point. The SNP and the Greens voted to give the First Minister of Scotland a mandate to request from this Government a section 30 order to hold another independence referendum. If Government Members and Labour Members have not twigged already, let me spell it out for them: that is what this motion is about tonight. It is about protecting the right of the Scottish people to take necessary steps to protect themselves from the consequences of Brexit because, unlike the people’s vote, the vote for a second independence referendum in Scotland already has a mandate. That is a distinction that the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) and the Lib Dems, who are no longer in their place, do not seem to understand.
Before I go any further, I want to take this opportunity to defend our group leader, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford). There has been a concerted attempt by Conservative Members this evening to assassinate his character by putting into Hansard allegations about him that cannot be upheld. Madam Deputy Speaker, I note that neither you, nor anyone else in the Chair this evening, has ruled his conduct disorderly. In speaking up passionately for the viewpoint of the Scottish National party, he is simply exercising his mandate and doing his job. In so doing, he has our support, the support of his constituents and the support of the Scottish National party.
Douglas Ross
The hon. and learned Lady mentioned what Conservative Members had said and put into Hansard. Will she accept that what I said about the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber was that he made it all far too personal—that he was playing the man, rather than the ball—and that if SNP Members really want to have a constitutional debate in which they engage people from all sides, they have to stop these petty attacks on individuals?
Joanna Cherry
Yes, I did hear the hon. Gentleman say that, but I do not accept that he was right. I suggest that he gets a mirror and looks in it more often, because it is he and his colleagues from Scotland who have been playing the man, not the ball.
This debate—as well as the debate around Brexit and Scottish independence—is really about what it means to be an independent nation in the modern world. People often ask why the Scottish National party wants to leave the United Kingdom but stay in the European Union. The answer is very simple. We do not have to look very far to see an example of what it is to be a partner in the European Union, as opposed to what it is to be a member nation in the UK. Just look across the Irish sea to Ireland, and see the treatment that the Republic of Ireland has received from the European Union. Ireland’s economic and social considerations are put at the heart of the negotiations by the EU27. Contrast that with the economic and social concerns of Scotland and, indeed, Northern Ireland, which both voted to remain but whose concerns are utterly sidelined. In Scotland’s case, we were given a total of 19 minutes to debate amendments to the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, accompanied by much sneering and condescension from the Government Benches when SNP MPs dared to protest. I would say to Conservative Members that their sneering and condescension is not a good look.
Joanna Cherry
No, I will not give way—I want to develop my point.
I ask Conservative Members to reflect on the impression that their behaviour is likely to have on voters in Scotland when, as seems likely—for the reasons admirably adumbrated by my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson)—the current Tory Government collapse under the weight of their own divisions and are forced to go to the country again in another general election. I suggest to Conservative Members that their role as Lobby fodder, and the way in which they have sneered and condescended when SNP Members have attempted to protest about the lack of time given in this Chamber to the impact of Brexit on devolution, will not serve them well.
The disparity between the treatment of the Republic of Ireland within the European Union and the treatment of Scotland within the United Kingdom illustrates very clearly why I and my colleagues and wish to leave the Union of the UK but remain within the European Union.
Joanna Cherry
No, I am not going to give way—I do not have long left.
The European Union is a union of equals. The United Kingdom is not a union of equals, because Scotland is not treated as an equal partner within it. We want to be in a union where we are an equal partner. [Interruption.]
If Conservative Members would just for a moment stop trying to shout me down, I want to finish by answering a point made by the Secretary of State for Scotland when he said that the Sewel convention was a pillar of the devolution settlement. I suggest to him that the insertion of the word “normally” put a pretty big crack in that pillar. I would like to leave him with this thought: if he was building a house to live in, would he build it on top of a pillar that only normally stood up?
Stuart Andrew
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I want to challenge the assertion made by various Members of the Scottish nationalists that my hon. Friends who represent Scottish seats should stand up for their constituents. I have the privilege of working with them on a regular basis and I can say that that is what they do day in, day out with great force. They regularly meet Ministers from all sorts of Departments in this Government to fight their corner not just for their constituents but for the whole of Scotland.
Let me refer to other points that were made. My hon. Friend the Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) talked about the tone of this debate. I was surprised at the way interventions were rejected by the leader of the SNP, the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber. There are ways that we behave ourselves in this House. He talked about important issues about education and health—
Joanna Cherry
Repeatedly this evening, Government Members have sought to suggest that my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) has done something disorderly. Can the Speaker confirm for the record that he has done nothing disorderly and has not been ruled disorderly this evening? It is character assassination, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker
I did not find the right hon. Gentleman to be disorderly. I think I said to him at one point that it was perhaps a bit off to say, “Sit down!” to the Minister, but in terms of the right hon. Gentleman’s general conduct, it has been abrasive, but not disorderly.
Sewel Convention
Joanna Cherry Excerpts(6 years, 5 months ago)
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Ian Murray
The hon. Gentleman misinterprets the Labour party position; in fact, misinformation is the SNP’s role in this debate. I am clear about our position. The amendment tabled in the House of Lords would get us to around 80% of where we would like to be. The old clause 11 was deficient, as everyone in this House—including the Secretary of State himself and the Minister for the Cabinet Office—has said. There has been a process of negotiation, and in such a process one cannot always get what one wants. I would have liked the Government to go much further, but on the basis that the amendment was in my view 80% acceptable, it did not seem right to vote for it or to vote against it. That is a principled position to take. I say to the hon. Gentleman that it is completely and utterly fundamentally disingenuous to claim that powers are being taken back from the Scottish Parliament. It is equally fundamentally disingenuous to say that Brexit will be a powers bonanza. Both positions are wrong. The powers of the Scottish Parliament will not increase by one iota as a result of this process, and the number of powers that will be taken from the Scottish Parliament as part of this process is zero. Because the Conservatives and the SNP have it in themselves to continue to fight with each other because it is politically expedient for them to do so, all these kinds of arguments and the pragmatic approach to this process are lost.
Ian Murray
I will give way to the hon. and learned Lady, my constituency neighbour, if she wants to dispel the myth and agree that the Scottish Parliament will receive no fewer powers than it has and will have no powers taken from it as part of this process.
Joanna Cherry
Is the hon. Gentleman seriously disputing the fact that, as a result of the amendments passed last week, 24 powers will be taken back to this Parliament for up to seven years and that, at any time during that seven years, the UK Government can alter them as they see fit? Has he read the amendment and is he seriously disputing that?
Ian Murray
The hon. and learned Lady’s question touches on the bit of the amendment from the House of Lords that we disputed. In fact, if she looks at our Front-Bench amendment in this place—[Interruption.] I do not understand why the behaviour of the Scottish National party has to be so hostile when I am actually on its side for the vast majority of this issue. There is no respect in this Chamber for people who want to make their points.
I agree 80% with the amendment that came back from the House of Lords. This is the bit that I do not agree with. In fact, the shadow Secretary of State put forward an amendment in lieu of the Lords amendments that stated the very fact that this was where the contention lay with the sunset clauses. I have the 24 areas of legislation in front of me, and I would like to say to the people of Scotland who are perhaps watching this debate that we do need UK-wide legislative frameworks on some of these matters, because it is important for the operation of Scotland, the UK Government and the UK economy. For example, let us look at environmental quality and standards in chemicals. Nobody could possibly suggest that, in the pragmatic world in which we live, we do not need both Governments to come together and propose a proper UK framework for that kind of issue. That is just one of the 24 issues—there are 153 issues—that has come up in this particular process.
Ian Murray
I will not give way again to the hon. and learned Lady, because others wish to speak. She will get her opportunity to speak in this debate.
We must take the politics and the heat out of this debate. During the statement last Thursday, I asked the Secretary of State whether there was any possibility of people continuing to talk on this matter. He said that he was willing to talk, but that the Scottish Government will not move from their position. In reply to my intervention a few moments ago, the leader of the SNP said that the Scottish Government, in his view, would be willing to talk. When can we possibly get both Governments around the table to try to flesh some of this out? The nub of the problem—one of a number—is that the Joint Ministerial Committee does not meet regularly enough. As was said by Lord McConnell, who set up this particular process, it should have been scrapped a long time ago. During the passage of the Scotland Bill in 2015 in this Chamber—all the SNP Members were here—I put forward amendments from that Dispatch Box to put the JMC on a statutory footing to allow minutes and agendas to be published publicly, so we did not get into this situation of “he said, she said” and the whole matter becomes a political football.
When the Minister gets to the Dispatch Box, I urge him to give a clear commitment that every single piece of communication that has happened in the JMC with regards to the devolution amendments is published. I shall tell him why he should do that. While this whole process is secret and while people are kept in the dark about who said what and who agreed to what, all we get is: this is a power grab, or this is a powers bonanza. The people of Scotland then have to decide which one is the most appropriate. As the compromise was made, I want to know, and the people of Scotland want to know, how far apart the two sides are. Is it the case that it is two minor things on which the Scottish Government are deliberately withholding consent, because it is not in their interest to give consent? I agree with the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Jack) that the Scottish Government never intended to give consent, even if they got 100% of what they wanted. It is not in their political interest to do so. Let us have a little bit of transparency about this process, so that we can see, in black and white, where the gap is and how we are able to bridge that gap.
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
I got the impression over the weekend that Government Members and the metropolitan commentariat were rather surprised at the strength of feeling displayed by SNP MPs last week at the pitiful amount of time that was allowed for debate of these matters, but they should be in no doubt that that strength of feeling is felt across Scotland. On the flight home and in my constituency at the weekend, I was inundated by members of the public congratulating us on taking the stance that we did. In douce, undemonstrative Edinburgh, I was unable to get my messages done in Marks & Spencer at Slateford for people coming up to me wanting to shake my hand and tooting their car horns, shouting out that we had done the right thing.
Lest it be thought, then, that this is only about what we individual SNP Members think, I want to devote what little time I have to some of the views held by members of the Scottish commentariat, Scottish civic society and a prominent Scottish constitutional lawyer. The position was neatly summed up at the weekend by the distinguished journalist and commentator Kevin McKenna, who is not afraid to criticise my party when he does not agree with it, when he wrote in The Observer at the weekend:
“The UK government has sought to portray the SNP’s anger over the power grab as illusory to the point of non-existent. ‘The 24 powers will eventually make their way to Holyrood, so what’s the problem?’ they ask. The problem is threefold.”
First:
“It could take up to seven years for these powers to return, a period that would outlast a term of government on either side of the border.”
Secondly:
“At any time, during this period the UK government could alter them as they see fit.”
Thirdly and perhaps most importantly:
“A precedent has also been set allowing any UK government to override the Sewel convention by which Westminster won’t legislate on devolved competencies without Holyrood’s permission.”
That is not my view but the view of Mr McKenna.
The Sewel convention provides that Westminster will “not normally” legislate on a devolved matter without devolved consent. I am afraid that an awful lot of nonsense has been talked about what the word “normally” means. Fortunately, the House need not take my word for it; Aileen McHarg, professor of public law at the University of Strathclyde, very helpfully set out at the weekend some of her views on what “not normally” meant. She says it does not mean:
“Goodness me, this situation is a bit unusual; we can therefore ignore the usual constitutional rules.”
It does not mean, she says: “I say”,
“it’s jolly difficult if we have to agree stuff with”
the Scots and
“the devolved institutions; let’s just ignore them.”
Nor does “not normally” mean, she says:
“So long as we make some kind of effort to reach agreement (even if it’s a bit late and we have to be forced into it), it doesn’t matter if we can’t actually reach agreement.”
What “not normally” means is as follows. The Sewel convention is a rule, not merely a description of practice, so the word “normally” has to be understood as an exception to the rule. According to the principles of legal interpretation, we make exceptions to a rule either where the underlying rationale for the rule does not apply or where there is some overriding competing principle.
The rationale for the Sewel convention is protection of devolved autonomy. It is not clear to me or Professor McHarg why the protection of devolution should be suspended by the Brexit vote, particularly when Scots did not vote for Brexit by a majority of two to one. Professor McHarg concludes, on the basis of what few precedents there are, and of the discussions at the time of the enactment of the Scotland Act and in relation to the old Stormont convention, that devolved consent can be overridden only in cases of necessity or where the devolved legislature is abusing its power. There is no evidence that the devolved legislature is abusing its power, and, in order to have frameworks, there is no necessity for those frameworks to be imposed from above.
Stewart Malcolm McDonald
Given what my hon. and learned Friend has just informed the Chamber of, could not the Executive in London be accused of abusing their power?
Joanna Cherry
Indeed. It is the Executive in London who are abusing their power. In the words of the BBC’s “Reality Check” website, the Sewel convention was “ripped up” and thrown away by last week’s amendments.
I will conclude with a word of warning for the Tories from another commentator, Dani Garavelli, who wrote in The Guardian:
“As for ordinary voters, they may not be greatly exercised about the finer points of the constitution… But they can hear the mood music; they know when their parliament is being slighted. Already frustrated over the democratic deficit that allows Scotland to be taken out of the EU when every part of the country voted remain, many of them will look askance at the dismissive way Conservative politicians behaved in the chamber on Wednesday.”
In relation to displays of anger from me and others last week, she says that such anger
“will be echoed around much of the country. Anyone who doesn’t understand the potential impact of such condescension on the psyche of Scottish voters wasn’t paying enough attention last time around.”
I look forward to putting pictures of their jeering faces on the leaflets at the next independence referendum.
European Union (Withdrawal) Bill: Sewel Convention
Joanna Cherry Excerpts(6 years, 5 months ago)
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Mr Speaker
Yes, really! [Interruption.] Order. What was that? Somebody chuntered from a sedentary position.
Mr Speaker
Surely not? Well, no—the right hon. Gentleman will be enabled to continue his contribution.
David Mundell
Again, the question is based on a premise that does not accept the current constitutional arrangement. I respect the fact that the current questioner and the likely remaining questioners will all have that position. They are entitled to it; they are entitled to argue for independence for Scotland. But they are not entitled to misconstrue the current constitutional arrangements within the UK. The Government have operated entirely within the Sewel convention in the actions they have taken. I want to see the devolved Parliaments doing thing differently—doing the things in Scotland that are right for Scotland. What disappoints me is how little time the Scottish Parliament, at the behest of the Scottish Government, actually spends legislating for Scotland and bringing forward different and new arrangements that would be specific to Scotland’s needs.
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
During his statement the Secretary of State repeatedly spoke about respect, and he, the Prime Minister and other Ministers have repeatedly talked about their respect for the decision of the Welsh Assembly to grant consent to the Bill. If they are truly democrats, should they not accord equal respect to the decision of the Scottish Parliament not to grant consent? Or does their respect for democracy not extend to Scotland’s Parliament?
David Mundell
I do respect the decision of the Scottish Parliament. I have made it clear that I am disappointed by it. I was particularly disappointed by the Scottish Labour party’s approach to that decision. We respect the decision, but what happens next is determined by the Sewel convention and we are acting in accordance with that.