Post Office (Horizon System) Compensation Bill

Jim Shannon Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 19th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the right hon. Gentleman for making that salient point. I am aware that there are many affected postmasters and families in Northern Ireland, including some in my constituency. What they are seeking is a timescale for when all postmasters in Northern Ireland—and, indeed, across this great United Kingdom—can expect to receive their compensation, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman is going to ask for that now. Those in my constituency have not received any word about compensation yet. Does he agree that when the Minister sums up the debate, we want to be given the timescale for the compensation? We want to know that right away.

[Mr Jones]

Yes. We now have this Bill and we have got the compensation scheme moving, and I think we need to move very quickly to get the money paid out.

Another issue relates to overturned convictions. Nearly 900 people have been convicted, 700-odd through the Post Office. Some of them in Northern Ireland and Scotland were convicted under a different system. Some were prosecuted by the DWP, for example. I will not rehearse the arguments now, but only 93 of those convictions have been overturned and that does not sit right with me. Somebody asked me why people had not come forward, but they are never going to come forward. They have been so scarred and traumatised by the court process that they will never go anywhere near a court process again. We need to tackle that, and I will cover that when I speak to my amendment later.

I welcome this Bill. My final point is on responsibility. If this scandal had happened in the United States, which takes a very different approach to financial crime and misdemeanours, people would be in jail by now. The evidence is all there, and I accept that Sir Wyn is slowly prising it out of the Post Office, but there are individuals such as Paula Vennells, who, ironically, got a CBE in 2019 for services to the Post Office, even though she oversaw all that was going on. I have written on numerous occasions to the Honours Forfeiture Committee to get that taken off her, but I have had no answer.

If there is one broad lesson to be learned from this scandal by Ministers and future Ministers, it is that when the state does something like this that is so wrong, there should be no hiding place for anyone who has been responsible. Sir Wyn is doing a great job in his inquiry to unearth some of these things. Fujitsu has been mentioned. That is an organisation that definitely has some huge questions to answer.

I think there are two parts to this. First, we have to get the compensation paid. The Minister has committed to trying to put people in the position they would have been in if they had not been affected, which is what we need to do. Will the compensation ever fully compensate them for what they have been through? No, it will not—they will have a scar—but it will help. The other important thing is that the people responsible should be brought to justice and have their day in court. Clearly, they need to answer for it.

I finish with the final line of Tom Brown’s evidence to the public inquiry, at paragraph 89:

“I would…like to find out who was responsible once and for all and to see someone take accountability for the wrong doings of the Post Office.”

I could not have put it better myself.

Arms Export Licences: Israel

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 12th December 2023 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Member for Coventry South (Zarah Sultana) for raising this topic. It is right and proper that we scrutinise our licensing procedures in line with our international obligations. We have a strong product in arms sales. Thales, on the border of my constituency, with a strong Strangford workforce, is world renowned for its tremendous products. Its input into the local economy cannot be emphasised enough. With a 30-year heritage and world class engineering, Thales employs 500 people and contributes £77 million to Northern Ireland’s GDP. There is also an ecosystem of suppliers, and 91% of our local procurement in Northern Ireland is with small and medium-sized enterprises. That is the background for the arms sales and the importance of it, which the Minister understands.

Belfast has developed into a centre of excellence for Thales’s air defence and surface attack solutions. Thales has made a real difference in the war in Ukraine, and its product has been mentioned positively in this House as a tool for Ukraine to beat back the Russian invasion. The sale of the products has been essential to the war effort in Ukraine.

Israel was attacked on 7 October and its war against terror is ongoing. It is my belief that it is operating under international law and as such our arms sales can and should continue. The hon. Member for St Albans (Daisy Cooper) asked a question and a Government Minister responded:

“The UK Government takes its defence export responsibilities extremely seriously and operates some of the most robust export controls in the world. All applications for export licences are assessed on a case-by-case basis against strict criteria…The UK Government continues to monitor closely the situation in Israel and the OPTs and if extant licences are found to be no longer consistent with the criteria, those licences will be revoked.”

On 30 November 2023, the Secretary of State for Business and Trade said:

“Since the barbaric terrorist acts by Hamas against Israel on 7 October and the subsequent conflict in the region, the Government have been monitoring the situation very closely. The UK supports Israel’s legitimate right to defend itself and take action against terrorism, provided that that is within the bounds of international humanitarian law. Export licences are kept under careful and continual review as standard, and we are able to amend licences or refuse new licence applications if they are inconsistent with the strategic export licensing criteria.”—[Official Report, 30 November 2023; Vol. 741, c. 1049.]

The Government clearly set the course.

I support the Government in that view. I know the benefit of arms deals to my local economy, I see the benefit of the product in the war in Ukraine, and I stand with Israel while they legally fight the war on terrorism within the realms of international law.

Gender Recognition

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 6th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[Kemi Badenoch]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question. I am happy to meet Members from across the House on this issue, but I stress that changing the law is not going to be easy. It will not be straightforward and it will need consensus, broadly, across the House, because of many of the issues I alluded to earlier.

On his earlier point about social transitioning, he is actually right. It is probably worth my putting on the record what social transitioning is, because I know that a lot of people may not necessarily be clear about what I am referring to. Social transitioning is a relatively new phenomenon. It is rooted in gender identity theory, which I must stress is a very contested ideology. The term is often used to refer to a range of actions that a child may take to appear more like the opposite sex, accompanied by an expectation that they will be treated as if they are. That may include requests for a child to change their name, the pronouns associated with them or their uniform, or to use different facilities from those provided for their biological sex. Not all of those requests will comply with legal duties on schools, particularly those to safeguard children.

Social transitioning is not a neutral act, as it has been recognised that it can have formative effects on a child’s future development, which is what my hon. Friend is alluding to when he talks about cross-sex hormones. We are taking this very seriously. We will have the gender questioning guidance out very shortly, and I hope it will address many of the issues he is concerned about.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the Minister for her wisdom in her answers to all the questions she has been asked today. Will she confirm that just as a person can have a full driving licence at 16 in the United States of America and yet would not be able to apply for a full licence in the UK until our legal age is attained, the same premise is in operation here, in that our laws supersede those of other nations in this sovereign matter? In other words, decisions are made here by our Minister and our Government.

[Kemi Badenoch]

We do need to make sure that there is clarity across the board that it is Ministers in this country who are making those decisions clearly and being held to account in Parliament. A lot of loopholes have become apparent that allow people to change things through different means other than via Parliament. Some of that is about changing the colloquial meaning of quite a lot of expressions. Bringing as much as possible into law to provide clarity will be really important.

Conversion Practices

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 6th December 2023 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a real pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Fovargue, and to speak in this debate. I may have a slightly different opinion from many here due to where I come from. I hope that right hon. and hon. Members will show the respect that I have shown in listening to them and listen to me as I put forward my point of view. I say that, but some of the speeches this morning were incredibly balanced. As I have said, I may have a different opinion, but I’ll tell you what: Members have put their point of view over very admirably and in a very balanced way, and that is appreciated.

I am very grateful that we are having this debate today on an important subject that will affect many in our constituencies: I have certainly had occasion to use my position as a representative to try and help people, although not on a regular basis. I will be very conscious not to give away any confidential information on issues or conversations I have had. I am not even going to talk much about individuals, because I would not want to have any impact on them, but parents have come to me with great concern over what is happening with their children.

I am going to give a parent’s point of view, as both a parent and a representative. I very much recognise the need for nuance and a careful, measured analysis of the impacts of any policy proposals. It is vital to preface any discussion of conversion therapy by clearly condemning abuse and coercion of any kind, be it physical, mental or emotional. There can be no tolerance for any form of abuse in this country or any other. I express my deepest concern, sorrow and sympathy for all who have suffered from any form of harassment, abuse or discrimination. I say that very clearly as an introduction.

The issue at hand is wide-ranging and affects a number of areas. When we discuss possible legislation, we must reflect this broad awareness of the situation. Banning conversion therapy involves several parties, including children and youth, parents, schools, religious and belief communities, and others. I would like to address potential issues for several of those parties that may be caused by a ban on conversion therapy.

First, children and youth may be affected in significant ways by a conversion therapy ban as currently described. Such a ban could lead to limitations on the ability of children and youth to maintain informal or formal religious groups, such as prayer groups, which are used to promote spirituality and repentance in the Christian context. That is where I am coming from. People make their choices, but I am trying, as I do in all areas of my life, to be balanced in what I say and respect other people and points of view. With that in mind, I hope that people will also respect my point of view.

As a Christian myself, I recognise the importance of prayer as a tool to promote wellbeing. I believe that prayer can move mountains: the mountains in our lives, the mountains in the world, and the obstacles we come up against. For many Christians, it is an important devotional practice that may be limited by a conversion therapy ban. I am giving a parental point of view, and hopefully a very balanced Christian point of view as well—I am trying to do that very humbly, respectfully and sincerely to everyone.

Another consequence of a potential conversion therapy ban is that parents could be significantly affected in their daily responsibilities for the welfare of their children. According to some of the proposed conversion therapy bans, parents could be legally threatened if they choose not to allow their children to take puberty blockers. My hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) has referred to it twice, and I cannot ignore it. We cannot ignore this issue. It is a transformative medical practice, into which parents of children and youth surely ought to have an input. That is what the hon. Gentleman said, what my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) has said, and that is what I believe as well.

I fear that a conversion therapy ban could leave well-meaning, responsible parents vulnerable to unfair legal measures and social retaliation. The hon. Member for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi) encompassed many of my thoughts. I know the hon. Lady very well, and we have had conversations, so I understand the issue.

Ms Fovargue, I recognise that the time you indicated is up. There are some things I need to put down. Do we have time?

[Yvonne Fovargue (in the Chair)]

Yes

[Jim Shannon]

Thank you very much; I appreciate that.

It is vital for the wellbeing of any family that parents have the ability to raise their children within their own culture, religion or belief standards. If they are unable to do so, we will see negative impacts on families of all types, which will affect the wellbeing of communities and schools. We ought to embrace diversity, understanding and tolerance of others. Conversion therapy was addressed in the 2021 Queen’s Speech. The background briefing notes for the Speech noted the Government’s intention:

“We will ensure the action we take to stop this practice is proportionate and effective, and does not have unintended consequences.”

There are unintended consequences to a conversion therapy ban—potentially some of those that have been described. I ask that we all diligently examine the effects of such a ban on every party that might be affected.

In conclusion, abuse of any kind is unacceptable, as is discrimination and intolerance. I ask that each of us—individually—closely examine our policies to ensure that those behaviours are properly condemned in all settings. We need to be building cultures of love, warmth and growth. I am grateful for my colleagues’ important contributions to that effort, which I may or may not agree with. Let us continue to seek solutions that will foster those environments, while respecting the rights and duties of parents every time—of parents from diverse backgrounds. A conversion therapy ban as typically described does not, to me and to others, seem to do so. But I believe that we can, and will, come to solutions that will be in the best interest of all affected parties.

Elderly and Vulnerable People: Loneliness and Isolation

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 6th December 2023 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

May I say what a pleasure it is to follow all the hon. Members who have spoken so far? They have made some fantastic contributions —particularly the hon. Member for St Ives (Derek Thomas), who led the debate. By requesting it, he has allowed us all to participate and to make our own contributions.

Like the hon. Member for St Ives, I represent a rural and coastal constituency, with many homes situated out of the way, isolated from the centres of towns and villages. When the Minister kindly visited my constituency, he had the opportunity to travel through it, but he perhaps did not see all the things that this debate is about, although we were pleased to have him and we look forward to him coming back—such are the memories made on these occasions. In many of the houses in my constituency, there are older couples who have lived in their homes for years—we would say years and years and years; that is how long it is—but despite that there is still a sense of loneliness in the area. So it is great to be able to discuss what more we can do to combat that.

I cannot even begin to count how many fantastic community hubs and men’s sheds there are in my constituency to support and assist the elderly, those who are lonely and those who may not have any drive or focus and who, in some cases, may have depression, anxiety and mental health issues. I have worked closely with Cathy Polley, who manages the Ards Community Network in Strangford. She is an instrumental figure in the community, providing a safe place for people of all ages, not just the elderly.

Community support is absolutely essential. When constituents live more rurally, it is crucial to have those hubs in villages, where they are closer to home for the elderly to access. We have often talked in this place about the struggle of rural transport, and the SNP spokesperson, the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson), asked about rural transport in her intervention. That is an issue for all our constituents, and ensuring that local connection will make all the difference. The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) referred to the £2 pass and asked what good a £2 ticket is if there are no buses. It is a good question. We need to have real access; that is important.

There have been so many advances in society recently that ultimately cause a feeling of vulnerability and isolation in the elderly population. In Strangford, I have witnessed the closure of many high street banks because everything is now online or seems to be heading that way, and local shops have closed because we have less footfall and an environment where most services are provided through the internet. That is further isolating the elderly population, and it saddens me immensely to think of elderly couples who may not have any family and who may struggle to renew their passports, sort out online banking and so on.

I have had people come into my office for help with these things—rest assured, we are more than happy to help, and we do so regularly. I suspect that all Members do the same, and the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale referred to one such occasion. Sometimes our constituents just need someone to talk to, but sometimes they need someone to sort things out as well. We have the staff, and we have the online contacts, so why not just do that? They are always grateful, which makes our job 10 times easier. I have to say that it brings me a lot of joy as well.

I am very pleased that the hon. Member for Batley and Spen (Kim Leadbeater) is present. I had intended to speak about my next point even before she came in—I knew she would probably read Hansard tomorrow and catch up anyway—but I am pleased that she is here now. I want to speak about the Jo Cox Commission on Loneliness. Many of us are aware of it, and the hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) referred to it. During her time as an MP, Jo Cox was dedicated to combating loneliness in the UK. Jo formed an independent cross-party commission of MPs and artists to highlight the fact that we can all do something to help lonely people in our community. I remember Jo’s words: she wanted to

“turbocharge the public’s awareness of loneliness”.

By bringing together all those MPs, bodies and charities, that is what she did. It really is a pleasure to see the hon. Member for Batley and Spen in her place today.

Following Jo’s tragic murder, the commission was taken forward in her memory by the right hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) and Seema Kennedy, the former Member for South Ribble. It is fantastic that the campaign that Jo started, which has left a legacy for her—her sister, the hon. Member for Batley and Spen, will carry that on—is being supported and that more is being done to tackle loneliness across the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

There are so many fantastic services available for elderly people, but it is right to ensure that those services are accessible to them and that they are encouraged to avail themselves of them, especially in the run-up to Christmas, when feelings of loneliness are heightened as we remember those we have lost. When I say to somebody, “Have a lovely Christmas,” I am always conscious that it might not be. Christmas might be the time that they lost someone, and that will be their eternal memory of Christmas—every Christmas, repeated forever and ever, amen. I am therefore always a wee bit hesitant when I say, “Have a nice Christmas,” or whatever it may be. I hope that their Christmas will be a nice Christmas.

At a time of year when there is supposed to be so much joy, we often forget that there is an older population who are struggling. We can all do something small this Christmas, such as make a phone call. About three weeks ago, I read a suggestion in the paper that we not just call an elderly neighbour but call round and see him or her. That is something that we should all be doing and that each MP should encourage people to do—I put a press release out along those lines, because I thought it was important to do so. We should support an elderly person we know and give them some company. It is a joyous time of year, because it is when our saviour was born, and that is important, but it is also a time when people need support. The hon. Member for St Ives is to be commended for bringing this debate forward; he has done something to which we can all relate and on which we can all act.

[Kim Leadbeater]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind words about the Jo Cox Commission on Loneliness. He makes an important point. Will he join me in paying tribute to the many volunteers and organisations that will be reaching out to people over the festive period and ensuring, as far as is possible, that no one feels lonely or alone? Does he also agree that January and February can be very lonely months for people? Because there is so much going on around Christmastime, it can be easy to stay connected; as we approach January and February, it can feel a little harder, and sometimes people feel even more isolated.

[Jim Shannon]

I was anticipating that the hon. Lady would intervene and I am happy that she did. She is right: Christmas is over, the new year comes in and very quickly people are thinking about paying off their debts, but the loneliness that was there before Christmas is still there in January and February. With that in mind, I conclude, and I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention.

Statutory Parental Bereavement Leave and Pay

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 6th December 2023 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Thank you for calling me, Mr Sharma. May I say what a joy it is to follow the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Darren Henry) and wish him well in his endeavours to make this law? I did not know until now that the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) had kindly donated his private Member’s Bill to the hon. Gentleman for this purpose. I thank him for that and hope that, with that consensus from Members from parties on both sides of the House, the Government will put their hands up and say, “Let’s go with it and let’s do it.” That would please both hon. Gentlemen, as well as every one of us who signed the 10-minute rule Bill, which I did last year.

The hon. Member for Broxtowe is right that I have a particular interest in the matter. I am proud to be a signatory to the ten-minute rule Bill and to stand in Westminster Hall today alongside him and friends from a variety of parties. I know that the shadow Minister for the Scottish National party, the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson), has a particular interest in the matter as well. Indeed, I believe the hon. Lady may have had a ten-minute rule Bill on the subject in the past. We have a real consensus of opinion from everyone in this room.

This is a topic that is not and cannot be forgotten. I know that my colleague, the hon. Member for Broxtowe, is determined to see that the requisite changes are made to ensure that those going through the most immense, unspeakable and, for us, unimaginable pain have the level of support that they are entitled to. It is indeed unimaginable that the letter of the law would have the support designated for grieving parents circumnavigated, as the hon. Member for Broxtowe outlined. With the greatest respect, I cannot understand how it is possible that somebody who has lost both their partner and their child could not be eligible to receive the highest level of support. I can only imagine that that has been unintentional.

I try to be respectful in my comments, so I am sure the Minister will indicate the direction in which Government will go on the private Member’s Bill, which was kindly donated. The hon. Member for Ogmore did so in an attempt to rectify the mistake and I wholeheartedly support him in his aim, yet again along with other hon. Members here in Westminster Hall.

Interestingly, businesses are also asking for these changes to enable them to acknowledge the depth of pain that someone is going through and help in whatever way they can. If we have that request from individuals who have suffered and are in terrible pain, and we have businesses that support that, it seems to me that a consensus is building. Hopefully, that will make it much easier to acknowledge the depth of pain that someone is going through and help them in any way possible. For that purpose, we look to the Minister. He has compassion and responds to such things. I know by his very nature the type of person the Minister is and I hope—as I always do—for a positive response.

The fact is that since Government ceased part-funding sick pay, it has been coming solely from businesses, and small and medium businesses can find themselves struggling to offer support when their finances are tight. The change would enable businesses to allow the small amount of time off or the shared parental leave with no burden on the company itself. As the hon. Member for Broxtowe said, that is a small request and a small ask, but one that would made a significant difference to people.

As a father, and a grandfather to six grandchildren, the subject of this debate honestly strikes me in the very pit of my stomach. I may not really understand the pain felt by those who have lost loved ones, but I do know without any doubt that they need support and help to process and deal with that pain.

I want to tell a story that I know will resonate in particular with the SNP spokesperson, the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran, because I know some of what she has experienced in her life. One of my beloved constituents—I call her that because it is true—was attempting to find out where her stillborn son had been buried some 58 years ago when she passed away. She never did get to see the place, get answers or hear what had gone on. The pain that that lovely lady experienced over the years has always preyed on my mind. She was trying to find that information because she had not been able to process the grief at the time, and it stayed with her until the week she died—for all those 58 years. I knew her very, very well; I have photographs of her in my office. The system in place at the time basically told her that nothing had happened, and to forget it. That is the way it was dealt with years ago. She could not forget it, of course, and she lived with her grief every day of her life.

This debate is about not only giving financial support to people who have suffered this loss, but ensuring emotional recognition of their loss as meaningful and worthy of support, to allow them to process their grief while receiving financial help for that limited but vital time. The hon. Member for Broxtowe has done this House proud, and I thank him for securing this debate. I also thank the hon. Member for Ogmore, who was here one minute and away the next, for his contribution. I really do look forward to something coming from the consensus of opinion we have had across Westminster Hall today, and I look forward to working alongside the Minister to make that happen—I hope we will be able to do so. I also look forward to hearing from the SNP spokesperson, the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran, and the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders); their contributions will add to the debate and reinforce the consensus of political opinion. We all want the same thing for our constituents—let’s do that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 30th November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Kemi Badenoch]

We will ensure that our support offer for SMEs will help firms build their capability to import and export under our free trade agreements. We have started preparing for CPTPP entering into force. We will be producing written guidance on gov.uk to ensure businesses are equipped with the knowledge they need to access those opportunities. Specifically, our export support service, network of international trade advisers, export academy, and in-market support services will also help businesses to access opportunities in CPTPP markets.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

In my constituency of Strangford SMEs are an integral, core part of creating jobs, putting wages into pockets, and ensuring that people can progress and learn more trades. We want to be part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland pushing for the CPTPP. What can the Secretary of State do to help me and my businesses in Strangford to be a part of that and to move forward?

[Kemi Badenoch]

The hon. Gentleman will know that we had the Northern Ireland investment summit a few months ago. We met lots of businesses and investors who talked about how they want to take advantage of these markets. In fact, we have had one of the first big investors into a factory in Belfast. What I can do is help him with some of the materials we have around the export academy and the export support service, which he can hand out to businesses in his constituency who want to find out more.

Section 28 Repeal: 20th Anniversary

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 29th November 2023 Westminster Hall

[Mr Bradshaw]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. That is the difference a Labour Government make. I am sure some of our SNP colleagues will be making the same point about Scotland a little later.

The current Westminster Government have repeatedly broken their long-standing promise to ban the psychological abuse known as conversion therapy; they have abandoned the pledge made by the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) when she was Prime Minister to reform the gender recognition process; they have used spurious constitutional arguments to block Scotland’s democratically agreed gender recognition reforms; and they have threatened to repeal the Equality Act, in effect, to cancel trans people. Stonewall, our main LGBT charity, which was founded in response to section 28, faces a constant onslaught from the Government and their allies in the press. Unsurprisingly, in this atmosphere, hate crime against LGBT people has rocketed. Britain’s supposedly independent Equality and Human Rights Commission has been packed with political cronies and it is now being investigated by the United Nations. Ministers brief almost every week that they intend to reverse LGBT-inclusive sex and relationship education in schools—their modern-day equivalent of section 28.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Can I say first of all that I understand exactly the need for this debate and for people to make their own choice? However, I do say respectfully—I hope the right hon. Gentleman will understand what I am saying—that there is also a need for parents to have a say in the teaching of their children and what happens to them in school. I say that as a plea. I have had hundreds and hundreds of emails from constituents on this issue. I very much respect the right hon. Gentleman and what he is trying to do, but I just ask for the same consideration to be given to parents and their children.

[Mr Bradshaw]

I take the hon. Member’s point, but parents already have such powers. I gently make the following point back to him: a significant proportion of young homeless people are LGBT people who have been rejected by their families. While most families are affirming and supportive of their LGBT children, not all families are so, while I take the hon. Member’s point, I make that point back to him. It is the interests of the child that should matter to all of us. Whether we like it or not, some parents have attitudes that actually harm and damage their children, and schools need to be able to manage that in a sensitive and professional way, as I believe the vast majority of schools do at the moment anyway.

The policies reportedly being considered by the Government include banning trans young people from socially transitioning at school, banning them from attending single-sex schools matching their gender, forcing schools to out trans and non-binary young people to their parents, allowing teachers to misgender pupils, and blocking trans children from using bathrooms and changing rooms matching their identity.

Like gay, lesbian and bisexual people, trans and non-binary people have always existed. Gender dysphoria has been an internationally recognised condition for decades. Coming out as trans or non-binary is never easy, and often extremely difficult. That is why, historically, so many trans people have suppressed their gender dysphoria, leading to high levels of mental illness and—all too often—suicide. These children are not a threat to be contained; they should be supported and cared for. What schools need is guidance that will keep all young people, including trans and gender-questioning young people, safe and happy and help them to thrive both in school and beyond.

At an exhibition in the Forum at the University of Exeter to mark the 20th anniversary of the repeal of section 28, Melissa, a trans woman, writes of its impact on her as a teenager:

“The biggest effect was me not being able to actually figure out that I’m transgender, that what I needed was actually possible, what my life could have been. I almost took my life at that age. If I had been told that it was a thing that you could do and be, and there was a possibility, then that would have saved me an awful lot of pain. It made me determined to bring up my kids in a different way. They do have an inalienable right to be gay, and an inalienable right to be trans, and they know it.”

Section 28 marked the peak of the last great moral panic about LGBT people, which began in the 1980s and collapsed beneath the Labour landslide of 1997. My homophobic opponent’s campaign in Exeter helped me to deliver the biggest swing to Labour in the south-west. As I prepare to retire at the next election, it feels as if we are in danger of going full circle, back to the dark days of the 1980s.

In 2009, David Cameron had the decency to apologise on behalf of the Conservative party for section 28. I beg the Minister not to let his Government repeat the mistakes of the past. It will damage people’s lives, and it will lose them votes.

Tattoo Artists, Body Piercers and Cosmetic Clinics: Licensing

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 28th November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

Earlier this year it was announced that Wales was set to become the first UK nation to introduce mandatory national licensing for what we call special procedures: tattoo artists and those working in body piercing, semi-permanent makeup, acupuncture and electrolysis. The licensing regime in Wales is being introduced under part 4 of the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017. Happily, section 180 of the Health and Care Act 2022, passed by this place, gave the Secretary of State the power to introduce a licensing regime in England. I am really glad that we are now doing that and that our Government are taking the issue seriously.

In this very short debate, I am keen to hear from the Minister what the Government are doing to speed up the introduction of that regime in England, something that the Health and Social Care Committee, which I chair, called for when it published a report on body image back in 2022. I want to mention my hon. Friends the Members for Bosworth (Dr Evans) and for Sevenoaks (Laura Trott), who did good work on that regard when they were on that Committee.

As we are all well aware, non-surgical cosmetic procedures such as Botox, dermal fillers, chemical peels and aesthetic procedures such as tattooing and body piercing are soaring in popularity. The beauty industry is valued at an estimated £3.6 billion in the UK. That boom has been fuelled by sales on social media and in beauty shops on the high street. However, while these procedures are popular, they carry risks that must be managed to protect both those who undergo the procedures and those who provide them.

At present, healthcare professionals such as doctors, nurses and dentists who carry out non-surgical cosmetic procedures must be trained and insured as part of the requirements laid down by their own regulatory bodies or Royal Colleges. However, there is no set training for beauty therapists and other non-professionals, something that is a cause for concern and an issue that many respected practitioners have campaigned on for some time. It is, after all, in their interests; as the sector has boomed, there has been a rise in people being physically and mentally harmed by poorly performed procedures. The aesthetics sector has been described to us by some, in part, as the “wild west”, which clearly is not ideal for anyone, patient or practitioner.

Further to that, a survey carried out by the British Association of Aesthetic Plastic Surgeons found that 69% of its surgeons have seen patients with complications following temporary fillers. Again, that outlines the need for the licensing scheme to be introduced and enforced. An estimated 900,000 Botox injections are carried out in the UK each year, with 3,000 complaints registered in 2022. The public need to be educated on the risks; they cannot assume that someone who is carrying out an aesthetic treatment is trained. It goes without saying that people should take the time to find a reputable, insured and qualified practitioner, if they decide that such treatments are for them.

To my mind, the licensing scheme is an important step towards better outcomes for the industry and consumers and, I hope, towards removing rogue practitioners from the industry. Practitioners must have adequate training to deal with complications and to minimise them in the first place. For instance, if a blood vessel is blocked while a patient is undergoing a procedure, it could easily block the blood supply to their eye. I was contacted with the horror story of one woman who was unable to open her eyes for 16 weeks following botox treatment.

Wales opened its 12-week consultation on its licensing scheme in January of this year. The scheme aims to reduce infections, eliminate poor working practices and create a central public register for licensed practitioners and approved business premises. That is important as the industry continues to increase in popularity. The Welsh chief medical officer said at the time that he was

“very pleased that these impending changes have been widely welcomed by practitioners in Wales, with many already volunteering to meet the new standards.”

One tattoo shop owner who has been working with the Welsh Government on the new qualifications said—this was widely reported—that:

“The increase in quality of tattoos in the last decade has been exponential so the hygiene needs to be raised. This is all positive for the industry and helps shake the image of it being dark and shady. It’s reassuring for those getting tattooed as well.”

I obviously very much agree with that statement, which shows why we need further legislation—or regulation off the back of legislation—in England to protect both clients and practitioners. In answer to a written question earlier this month, the Welsh Government confirmed that the aim is for their statutory licensing scheme to come into force in the summer of 2024, when it will initially apply to the four special procedures specified in their 2017 Act: electrolysis, body piercing, tattooing and acupuncture.

As I say, I was pleased when the Health and Care Act 2022 introduced powers for the Secretary of State to establish a mandatory licensing scheme in England, following calls for greater regulation of non-surgical cosmetic treatments—not least from my Select Committee. It is important that the scheme is introduced sooner rather than later, which we emphasised in our report on body image.

It was positive when the consultation in England finally opened at the beginning of September this year with pretty much the same intentions as the Welsh piece of work. However, concerns have been raised with me by those in the industry that the consultation in England has been far too heavily biased towards medical input rather than input from those in the cosmetics industry, which makes up a large part of the sector. As part of our body image inquiry in 2022, the Health and Social Care Committee recommended that the introduction of licensing for non-surgical cosmetic procedures be made a priority and introduced by July this year. The Committee also suggested that a safety taskforce be set up to bring stakeholders together, but I understand that the Government decided not to follow that route. The National Hair and Beauty Federation says that it is concerned that the Government have not reached out to an adequately broad range of stakeholders. Why have the Government not pursued the route recommended by the Select Committee?

In the pre-consultation phase, it was felt that more medical organisations than beauty organisations were consulted, which the NHBF has suggested caused a bias towards the medical sector. That is creating concern that routes into aesthetics via the beauty sector will therefore be restricted, which will have obvious consequences for many legitimate and reputable businesses. It also creates the risk that the new regulatory regime may drive some practices into the underground market rather than increase quality and standards across the industry, which is what we are aiming to see. The NHBF also said in September that it had written to the Government twice this year regarding the new licensing scheme but was yet to receive a response. Maybe that has been updated since.

When implementing mandatory licensing, we need to ensure that we establish a framework that demands a higher standard of care and proficiency from all practitioners. Further to that, another issue that needs to be addressed by the national scheme is procedures carried out in tattoo and piercing studios in England, which are currently subject to regulation by local councils. As there is no national scheme, we currently lack the reassurance needed. Practitioners need to contact the local council where their premises are based to get a tattoo, piercing or electrolysis licence. They must then register both themselves and the premises with the local council. However, registration is a fairly simple process, there is no requirement for the provision of proof of qualifications, and local authorities have few powers to refuse a registration. The current licence with local authorities covers tattooing, semi-permanent skin colouring, cosmetic piercing, electrolysis and acupuncture.

Local councils do, it must be said, conduct regular inspections of premises to ensure that they are compliant with health and safety laws, and there is a requirement for every tattoo artist to be licensed by their local council. To remind the House, tattooing without a licence or tattoo certificate is illegal. However, the fact that licensing is determined by local councils in England means it differs on what standards must be met across the country by those who apply. For example, some councils demand that all practitioners have access to their own sink, while others are happy for shared sinks, which risks cross contamination—posing a health risk. A new compulsory licensing scheme would ensure that both clients and practitioners are adequately protected, and practitioners would have to abide by the same rules across England.

The purpose of registration with councils is to protect the public from the transmission of blood-borne viruses such as HIV, hepatitis B, hep C and other infections, and to ensure that the health and safety regulations are followed. I think a national licensing scheme would increase this protection. As I have already set out, although section 180 of the Health and Care Act enables the Secretary of State to establish a licensing scheme, it is yet to be fully enacted. The consultation process closed a month ago today, and the advances to implement this hugely important scheme have been slow in England. When does the Minister think the Government will respond to the consultation?

There are four key priorities that must be addressed in the new licensing scheme to make sure that there is adequate protection for practitioners and clients. The first is the design and implementation of the national licensing scheme for all premises, as well as practitioners of non-surgical cosmetic procedures, to ensure that those who practise invasive procedures are competent and safe for members of the public—our constituents. Secondly, all practitioners must hold the correct insurance to provide these procedures. Thirdly, there needs to be official guidance on the training and qualification expectation of all practitioners, such as the knowledge and application of infection controls and first aid training should things go wrong. Fourthly and finally, we need a system that effectively records adverse incidents and public awareness raising so that all cases that go wrong can be tracked. I think such a system would dramatically improve safety standards. It would also ensure that members of the public are better equipped, as they would have better tools and knowledge surrounding the procedures and the practitioner that they were using.

The Government did assure the Joint Council for Cosmetic Practitioners, the British Beauty Council and the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health that they were committed to the licensing of the non-surgical aesthetics sector in England, so I ask the Minister when we can expect to see further action, following the consultation that I have mentioned.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the hon. Gentleman for bringing this debate forward. My council, Ards and North Down Borough Council, has a policy in relation to piercings specifically. It has initiated a piercing guidelines policy to make both piercers and those who get piercings aware of the guidelines and policies that, in its word, “must” be followed. Does he agree that there could be more discussion of providing this information—in local schools, for example—because many people who get piercings are under 18 years of age, and are often naive to the guidelines and hygiene policies that piercers must follow? Educate them early: does the hon. Gentleman agree?

[Steve Brine]

We have enough debates in this House about some of the things that we teach in schools, and I can but imagine some of the responses we would get to this, but in my view education can never be a bad thing. There is nothing wrong with tattooing and piercings. It is not my personal choice—I do not know about the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon)—but if people are going to do it, I think they should go with their eyes, or any other part of themselves, wide open; and that is why the hon. Gentleman’s point on education is well made. [Interruption.] Did that amuse you, Mr Deputy Speaker?

In closing, would it be possible for the Minister to outline the timeline, even in rough terms, for the introduction of the licensing scheme? Finally, I understand that it is complicated and a bit like peeling an onion—the more you take, the more you find—could the Government outline which procedures will fall under the new licensing scheme? On that, I will close; I look forward to hearing from the Minister.

Post Office Services: Edinburgh West

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Monday 27th November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

The subject of the debate is post office services in Edinburgh West. Although it is about my constituency, the problem could just as easily apply to many constituencies throughout the country. Indeed, I have not spoken to a single Member who has not said that their constituency faces the same problem with post office closures as we face in Edinburgh West.

When I was thinking about the debate, I wondered what the answer might be if I asked any of the children in my constituency what a post office was and what they used it for. I also thought they might look at me with astonishment if I told them that what they now regard as part of the local shop was once the organisation that provided everything from our telephone services at home, our mail and all sorts of Government forms, to pensions and stamps.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the hon. Lady for bringing this matter forward. Last week, the parliamentary group of the Democratic Unionist party met the Northern Ireland sub-postmasters association. Every one of those issues that she mentions were discussed with us. We were told that those opportunities were no longer available in the post office, by which I mean MOTs, car tax renewals, and passport renewals. The post office was also used as a community hub. All of those things highlight how important post offices were. I know that the hon. Lady has said all of that, so I hope that, in his response, the Minister can give us some succour and respite in relation to what the post offices can and should do.

[Christine Jardine]

The hon. Member makes a very good point. These were all vital services. Not so very long ago, post offices were central to communities up and down the country. They also provided some of the most spectacular examples of architecture, and they dominated our town centres. The local post office was where I applied for my first driving licence. I opened my first savings account there and queued for what seemed like hours every Christmas to make sure that the family’s cards and presents went off safely to various parts of Australia and Canada—but not any more. The Post Office I grew up with in the 1960s had 25,000 branches. In 2021, that figure had more than halved to 11,415, with more than half of those listed as vulnerable. The organisation itself lost £597 million in the same year.

In Scotland we have the biggest problem in the UK, having lost more than 6% of our post offices in the past two years alone. In Edinburgh West, two have closed and one has been relocated to a different area in the past year. As I said earlier, this problem is not isolated to Scotland or to Edinburgh West. One third of rural post offices are now offered as part-time outreach services.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade (Kevin Hollinrake)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Madam Deputy Speaker. I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine) on securing this debate. She is right to say how highly valued post offices are to our communities, and to speak up for them in this debate. I promise her that I fully support her perspective, representing a rural constituency myself.

The network of roughly 11,500 branches around the UK that the hon. Member refers to is the largest retail network in the country. As she points out, a recent London Economics report pointed out how post offices not only have economic value in terms of the use of the post office itself—she referred to a gentleman with an envelope looking for a post office for a stamp—but benefit other local shops, cafés and other businesses on our high streets. The knock-on effect adds up to around £3.1 billion a year, according to that report, so we are fully aware of the importance of post offices to communities and to the economy.

I am very keen, and I have been since I took over as Minister for postal affairs about a year ago, among other duties relating to my brief, to challenge the Post Office to make sure that it is doing the right thing by postmasters. The hon. Lady quite rightly points to the level of remuneration that postmasters get. We have to get that right to make the whole network sustainable. I gently point out to her that the Post Office is a commercial business, so it is not something that I direct on a day-to-day basis, but I am keen to take forward challenges on behalf of Members on both sides of the House.

The hon. Lady is aware of the network criteria that 99% of the population must live within three miles of their nearest branch and that—this is relevant to her constituency—95% of the total urban population must live within one mile of their nearest outlet. The network actually is not in decline—more post offices opened than closed over the course of the past year—but we see fluctuations, and it is regrettable that Edinburgh West has seen closures in recent months. I know that is very disappointing for her and her constituents; we know how important the post office is for those communities.

Of course many postmasters are running franchise businesses in their own right, and many of the challenges that postmasters face are faced by many high street businesses. Consumer habits are changing the dynamic and the viability of some postmasters’ businesses, and we need to find ways to make sure that they can run viable businesses that pay them fair remuneration for their work.

The hon. Lady and other hon. Members mentioned relationships such as that with the DVLA. That has been extended until the end of March next year. We want to see a longer-term deal than that, but that is a negotiation between relevant Government agencies and Post Office Ltd.

It is the case that consumer habits are driving down remuneration, and I do not think it is for us to dictate to our citizens how they should access services. Increasingly—I am sure the hon. Lady and other Members have done this—we access services such as passport or driving licence renewal online. That is much more convenient for many people, and it is driving down remuneration significantly. Only a few years ago, some of those Government services were contributing about £500 million annually to the post office network. That is down to a few tens of millions of pounds now, again because of consumer habits, but we are keen to try to make sure that there are other opportunities for postmasters.

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine) referred to elderly people and those who are isolated in the community and do not have access to online services. Those are the people who tell me they need their post office. There are many of them. I think the Minister would probably agree that there is a duty on the Government to try to encourage the renewal of those contracts come next March, and to ensure that the people we represent are looked after.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I say that both as a Member of Parliament serving a rural area and as postal affairs Minister. We want to make sure that every citizen of this entire nation is served properly. Post offices do an important job in that. We need to make sure that post offices are there, not just due to Government support, but because people use them. There are some things that we are working hard on to try to make sure that the level of remuneration, which lies at the heart of this debate, is improved.

As the hon. Member for Edinburgh West is aware, Duart Crescent and Blackhall post offices have both unfortunately closed in recent months, due to their respective postmasters choosing to resign; they were not closed by the Post Office. The Post Office is advertising those opportunities to local retailers to try to reinstate services.