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The Minister for Trade Policy (Greg Hands)
It is a pleasure to serve under you this afternoon, Sir Christopher. I thank the hon. Member for Coventry South (Zarah Sultana) for bringing the debate to this Chamber. I also thank other Members for their contributions. I will respond to as many of their points as I can in the time available.
It may be helpful first to outline the Government’s approach to this issue. I think we have all been deeply moved by the scenes we have seen from Israel and Gaza over the past nine weeks or so. At the same time, we must not forget how this conflict started. To do so would be a great injustice to the 1,200 victims of the Hamas terrorist attack on 7 October. It was a massacre that rightly appalled the world. Barbarism, brutality and inhumanity are not words that we should use lightly but, as more detail and witness accounts of the events of that day emerge, it is increasingly clear that they are apt descriptors of Hamas’s wicked acts.
Terrorism of this magnitude must be defeated. Israel has a clear right to defend itself, while of course complying with international law. None the less, it is only right that we continue to engage with Israel to ensure that its campaign is targeted against Hamas combatants and military infrastructure. The Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary stand alongside the international community in calling on Israel to ensure that its actions in defence are necessary and proportionate.
Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab)
The Minister will have heard hon. Members detail the horrors rained down upon Gaza in the past few weeks, but can he answer this: how many of the people who have been killed in Gaza were killed by arms supplied by Britain and how many of the tens of thousands of bombs that have rained down on Gaza were supplied by Britain or dropped from planes with parts provided by Britain? If the Minister says that he cannot answer those questions, that itself surely reveals why we need to suspend arms sales to Israel.
Greg Hands
It is not for me as a Minister in the Department for Business and Trade to give a commentary on deaths or destruction, up-to-date figures on Gaza or those kind of things. That is rightly a matter for the Foreign Office. I think that Foreign Office questions was today, which is when the hon. Member could have availed himself of the opportunity to ask exactly those questions.
We urge all parties to ensure that aid continues to enter Gaza, to end settler violence and to work with international bodies such as the UN and the International Committee of the Red Cross.
Richard Foord
The hon. Member for Leeds East (Richard Burgon) has asked about the number of deaths that can be linked to UK arms sales. Does the fact that there is not a Minister who can talk to this subject, which concerns four Departments, point to the fact that the Committees on Arms Export Controls are not functioning as they should?
Greg Hands
I thank the hon. Member for that; I heard his point earlier about the Committees. Of course, the Government strongly supports good parliamentary scrutiny of our defence export systems. However, my understanding is that, since the machinery of government change back in February, it has not been possible for the Committees to meet since, I think, March. That, and the organisation of the scrutiny of the Government, is most principally a matter for Parliament. The Government stand strongly in support of the scrutiny of defence exports. We have always been supportive of there being such a regime.
Greg Hands
I am going to make a little progress.
We heard points about the situation on the ground from the hon. Members for Coventry South, for Birmingham, Hall Green (Tahir Ali), for Nottingham East (Nadia Whittome) and for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill), and many others. The Foreign Secretary has been clear that Israel’s actions must comply with international humanitarian law and that it must take every step possible to minimise harm towards civilians.
Zarah Sultana
The Minister referenced the Government repeatedly saying that Israel must conform to international law. What assessment have the Government made of Israel’s compliance and conformity with international law? Has any assessment been made? In light of Israel’s actions, which consist of crimes against humanity, and which are not consistent with our arms export criteria, what will the Government do? These things are not matching up.
Greg Hands
Obviously we are monitoring the situation in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories very closely and we will take any action that the Government consider appropriate as the situation develops. The hon. Lady mentioned the Export Control Joint Unit. The ECJU has in place an established process for responding, at pace, to changing conditions in a country where the UK has previously granted export licences and where those licences remain extant. That situation is under constant review. The fact remains, however, that Hamas could end this conflict today, stopping the suffering of everybody, including the Palestinian people whom it continues to endanger.
I will now explore some of the points raised in this debate in greater depth. First, it is correct that the UK’s defence businesses have a trading relationship with Israel. I welcome the official Opposition’s support for that, for our defence contractors and for our defence exports industry—the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) rightly pointed that out, and I think that was a helpful development from the current generation of Labour Front Benchers. We should, however, put that trading relationship in perspective. In fact, our military exports to Israel are relatively small, representing just 0.02% of Israel’s military imports overall. The £42 million figure, quoted by the hon. Member for Coventry South and the right hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), was released by the Secretary of State for Defence. We stand by that figure; it is from 114 standard individual licences, and the total, accumulated from those licences, is indeed £42 million.
As Members may be aware, a company wanting to export military or dual-use goods must apply for a licence from the Government. The applications for those licences are assessed on a case-by-case basis against the strategic export licensing criteria—a system that is among the most rigorous and transparent in the world, and which provides a thorough risk assessment—
Several hon. Members rose—
Greg Hands
I am going to make a bit more progress. I have a lot of points to respond to.
The right hon. Member for East Ham (Sir Stephen Timms) is no longer in his seat, but you can see that work in practice. It is a searchable database, with data being released every quarter. The UK is actually at the forefront of providing transparency in our defence export and dual-use licences. These reflect—
Several hon. Members rose—
Greg Hands
I am going to make some more progress.
Those reflect, among other things, the UK’s obligations under international law and the potential for the goods to be used to commit violations of international humanitarian law. The final decision on a licence lies with the Secretary of State for Business and Trade, who takes advice from officials in the ECJU. The ECJU is a combined unit—it has already been referred to. It is made up of subject matter experts and officials from the Department for Business and Trade, the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office and the Ministry of Defence. It examines every application in great detail. The process requires the examination of a range of factors, including the political and security conditions in the destination country and the nature of the equipment to be exported. The ECJU comes to its conclusion by consulting both its UK experts and those in overseas posts.
Several hon. Members rose—
Greg Hands
I am going to make a bit more progress to respond to some of the points that have been made.
The ECJU also takes into account reports from non-governmental organisations, the media and others.
I must point out that the Government take the principles of responsible export control, which are set out in the strategic export licensing criteria, incredibly seriously. We can, and do, respond quickly and flexibly to change our fluid international circumstances, with all licences kept under careful and continual review as a standard.
Apsana Begum
I thank the Minister for giving way. The Government set their own precedent for pausing export licences in response to reports that the criteria might have been breached. In 2019, the Foreign Secretary did that; they suspended arms exports to NATO-allied Turkey following its invasion of Syria. Why can this Government not do the same now?
Greg Hands
The hon. Lady raises the exact point I am coming on to, which is that the system is designed so that a change in circumstances, with a proper assessment, can lead to a change in policy. She mentioned Turkey, but it has also happened in relation to Russia, Burma, Afghanistan and other countries. That is exactly why the policy is in place. We must be able to respond quickly and flexibly to changing circumstances.
Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con)
My right hon. Friend makes a good point that Hamas could solve this by removing themselves from their disastrous control of Gaza. However, does he agree that if there are war crimes on any scale, arms sales should cease immediately and there should be a full and immediate ceasefire?
Greg Hands
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. Of course, we have set out in the criteria for the licences what the UK Government policy and approach would be. If he has information in that regard, I am sure he will share that with the Foreign Secretary, the Secretary of State for Defence and us at DBT, and we would be happy to have a look at it. We take our obligations in this space exceptionally seriously. As I have shown before, we have acted to change policy in relation to changing circumstances on the ground.
I will move forward to deal with some of the points raised in the debate. I should add that the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office advises DBT on the situation in-country and the risks posed with respect to the UK’s export control responsibility.
Greg Hands
No; I will respond to the points already raised.
DBT then decides whether to amend, suspend or revoke any relevant licence, or to refuse new applications for licences. The private Member’s Bill proposed by the hon. Member for Coventry South, if I have understood it correctly, seeks to do exactly that, but it can already happen. I would also say in response to the point raised by the hon. Lady that the Foreign Secretary announced the doubling of aid from £30 million to £60 million, which is a tripling overall. My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Brendan Clarke-Smith) made a strong defence of Israel’s right to self-defence and our wider co-operation with Israel. He and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) asked me to restate our commitment to Israel, which I do.
The right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) had some praise for Lord Cameron. We have all performed some gymnastics over the years, but it was good to hear that praise from him. I have not personally seen the letter that he referred to, but our officials in the ECJU and the relevant Ministers engage with those groups all the time. In answer to the suggestion made by him and the hon. Member for Bedford (Mohammad Yasin), we continue to monitor the situation in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories very closely, and will take any action that we consider appropriate.
John McDonnell
This is a simple request. There are specific questions in that letter from War on Want and the other agencies. Could the Minister write to us on the detail of the Government’s responses?
Greg Hands
I am happy to find that letter and see whether there has been a response. As a matter of course, we at DBT respond to letters from non-governmental organisations. I will find out whether a response has already been sent. [Interruption.] If it is appropriate; I am not sure whether it was private correspondence. I might have to find the original letter, but I will make sure that it is responded to.
The hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Apsana Begum) rightly highlighted the suffering of the civilian populations in Gaza, which is of course under Hamas control. The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Richard Foord) raised a point about re-establishing the Committees; I think I have already answered that. He claimed that there were some tough Liberal Democrat policies in this space, but when the Liberal Democrats ran this Department for five years in the coalition, I do not recall those tough policies actually being implemented.
Greg Hands
No; I am going to finish. I have already taken an intervention from the hon. Gentleman.
The hon. Member for East Lothian asked a question about medical supplies. As I understand it, those are defibrillators and boxes for blood supplies—pure medical supplies—to Israel, but he is welcome to ask further questions if he needs more detail on that. To respond to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green, our position is to be supportive of Israel, not due to defence exports—which, as I have pointed out, are a small quantity from this country—but due to our support for Israel’s right to self-defend.
Finally, in the position of the hon. Member for Caerphilly, I did not detect any real difference from mine, so I welcome the official Opposition’s support for the UK defence industry. He said it is world leading, and I agree; he asked that we apply export criteria vigorously and robustly, and that is exactly what we do.
Finally, let me end by saying that our hearts go out to everybody affected by the conflict in Israel and Gaza.
Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).