NHS

Jeremy Hunt Excerpts

Wednesday 5th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

My hon. Friend is right. For the very first time in the history of the NHS, competition intervenes to block sensible collaboration between two hospitals seeking to improve care and make savings. Since when have we allowed competition lawyers to call the shots instead of clinicians? The Government said that they were going to put GPs in charge. Instead, they have put the market in charge of these decisions and that is completely unjustifiable. The chief executive of Poole hospital said that it cost it more than £6 million in lawyers and paperwork and that without the merger the trust will now have an £8 million deficit. That is what has happened. That is not just what I say; listen to what the chief executive of NHS England told the Health Committee about the market madness that we now have in the NHS:

“I think we’ve got a problem, we may need legislative change…What is happening at the moment…we are getting bogged down in a morass of competition law…causing significant cost and frustration for people in the service in making change happen. If that is the case, to make integration happen we will need to change it”—

that is, the law. That is from the chief executive of NHS England.

[The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt)]

That was Labour’s law.

[Andy Burnham]

No, it was your law, your Government’s law, the Health and Social Care Act 2012—the same law against which his own care Minister, the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), has recently been speaking out. He recently told the King’s Fund:

“I have a problem with the OFT being involved in all of these procurement issues… I think that’s got to change… In my view I think it should be scrapped in the future… That might happen at some future date… we’ve got to look at the barriers and address them and sort them out.”

Is that just his view, or the view of the whole Government? [Interruption.] He voted to let the OFT into the NHS. Why is he now changing his tune?

The former care Minister, the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), said the same:

“The one area I have my concerns about is the way”—

the 2012 Act—

“opened up the role of the OFT.”

Yes, but did we not tell him that two years ago when he voted for the Act and when his hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George), who is sitting next to him, joined us in the Lobby to oppose it? This is exactly what we warned them about. We warned them that it would let the market run riot through the NHS, but they would not listen, and that is why we are where we are today.

It is not just Ministers who are saying it; the comments by the chair of the Care Quality Commission at the weekend show the utter confusion in Government policy on competition in the NHS:

“We need more competition…more entrants into the market from private-sector companies”.

Will the Secretary of State clarify? Is that a statement of official Government policy? Is it his policy to get more private sector companies and more competition into the NHS? Is that what he wants? If that happens, it will mean more enforced competition leading to the fragmentation of care, and it will load extra costs on to the NHS at the worst possible time.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt)]

I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “House” to the end of the Question and add:

“notes the strong performance of NHS accident and emergency departments this winter; further notes that the average waiting time to be seen in A&E has more than halved since 2010; commends the hard work of NHS staff who are seeing more people and carrying out more operations every year since May 2010; notes that this has been supported by the Government’s decision to protect the NHS budget and to shift resources to frontline patient care, delivering 12,000 more clinical staff and 23,000 fewer administrators; welcomes changes to the GP contract which restore the personal link between doctors and their most vulnerable patients; welcomes the announcement of the Better Care Fund which designates £3.8 billion to join up health and care provision and the Integration Pioneers to provide better care closer to home; believes that clinicians are in the best position to make judgements about the most appropriate care for their patients; notes that rules on tendering are no different to the rules that applied to primary care trusts; and, a year on from the publication of the Francis Report, notes that the NHS is placing an increased emphasis on compassionate care, integration, transparency, safe staffing and patient safety.”.

The right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) today made some strong accusations. He talked about the worst winter in A and E for a decade. For months now, he has been predicting a winter crisis in A and E, but as ever, when we look at the facts, they simply do not stack up. Let us look at the last week available for A and E statistics, which is the week ending 26 January. Over 96% of patients were seen within four hours. At this stage in the winter, we have missed the target four times; at the same stage when he was Health Secretary, he had missed it 12 times. That is three times more. [Interruption.] He says the target is different. It is true: on the basis of advice from clinicians, the target was reduced from 98% to 95%, so let us strip out the targets altogether and just ask a simple question. How many people every day are being treated within four hours? Under him, it was fewer than 52,000; under this Government it is nearly 55,000. That is 3,000 more people every day.

The right hon. Gentleman did not just say that; he also said that people were waiting longer and longer to be seen, but that is simply not true. When he was Health Secretary, shockingly, people had to wait on average over an hour to be seen in emergency departments. With 350 more A and E consultants—as my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman) rightly mentioned—under this Government we have cut that to just 30 minutes. The right hon. Gentleman has the gall to stand up and criticise a record that is better than his.

[Julie Hilling]

In relation to those targets, the Secretary of State ignores the number of people who have not registered because they are in ambulances or because there is a huge queue to be registered. I wonder how that is factored into his claim that people are always seen within half an hour, when patently they are not.

[Mr Hunt]

With great respect to the hon. Lady, it was under her Government that we had the horrific tragedy of ambulances circling round hospitals because hospitals did not want to admit them in case they missed their four-hour A and E target. There is a lot of pressure in the system, but the fact is that 3,000 more people every day are being seen within four hours than when her Government were in power. That is something that A and E departments up and down the country can be rightly proud of.

[Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)]

I have had reason to visit my accident and emergency four times with my young son, who is 10 years old and an enthusiastic rugby and football player. On those four occasions—for a broken nose, a damaged knee, damaged ankles and damaged elbows—we were seen within minutes for pain relief and were out of A and E within two hours.

[Mr Hunt]

That is exactly what is happening in so much of the country. Despite a lot of pressure, our A and E departments are holding up extremely well. I wonder how the staff in that hospital would feel about the constant running down of the NHS that we get from the Opposition.

Let us look at the figures that the right hon. Member for Leigh quoted in more detail. How does he get the number he quoted for the worst winter for a decade?

[Andy Burnham]

Let us have a proper debate. I did not say the worst winter for a decade; I said the worst year in A and E for a decade. Let us get it straight. The Secretary of State should not redefine the question at the beginning of his speech. I am talking about the last 12 months, from this day today back to February 2013. Let us get that absolutely clear and let him answer for the last year, during which he has missed the A and E target 44 times out of 52.

[Mr Hunt]

Let us be absolutely clear. Why has Labour decided to remove the word “crisis” from the motion it submitted to the House this afternoon? It does not mention the word “crisis” at all, because the winter crisis that the right hon. Gentleman has been predicting for over six months now has simply not materialised.

Let us look—this is important—at how the right hon. Gentleman has been manipulating the statistics. He knows perfectly well that there is no A and E target for single categories of A and E; rather, the target applies to all A and Es. He gets his numbers by singling out the biggest A and E departments, type 1s, which are extremely important. How did type 1s—the most important and biggest A and Es—perform during the winter when he was Health Secretary? Let me tell the House: they missed their target every single week up until this point in the year. There are indeed pressures on A and E departments, but why does he think the country will listen to him, when by his own yardstick he failed to deliver every single week up until this point in the year?

The right hon. Gentleman has been predicting a winter crisis for months, and we are still waiting. For him, these debates are not about the reality on the ground; they are about hyperbole and spin. As someone who has been Health Secretary, he must know—this is a serious point—the effect that lurid headlines based on dubious statistics have on morale for staff and those using the NHS, but still we get the same cracked record, because for him, politics always matters more than patients.

It is not just A and E performance; under this Government—[Interruption.] It might not be comfortable for the Opposition, but let us look at the figures. Under this Government, MRSA rates have virtually halved, mixed-sex wards have nearly been eliminated and when it comes to elective care, more than 35,000 fewer people are waiting more than 18 weeks. That is thanks to the efforts of hard-working front-line staff. Our NHS is doing 800,000 more operations year in, year out than it did under Labour—something we can be immensely proud of.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

My right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), the shadow Secretary of State, has referred to comments by Dr Cliff Mann about the shortage of A and E doctors and the fact that the issue was flagged up some two years ago. What will the Government do to address the 50% shortage in A and E doctors, not only in England but throughout the UK?

[Mr Hunt]

The hon. Lady is right to highlight the fact that there has been a long-standing issue with recruitment into A and E. We have made some good progress. We have 350 more consultants in post than at the time of the election, but we need to do even better, so we are looking at the training process for A and E consultants. We are also looking at the contractual terms for A and E consultants, particularly as they relate to things such as shift work, to try to make it a more attractive profession. I am confident that these issues are now being addressed—in fact, I have had some encouraging feedback from the College of Emergency Medicine saying that it, too, is confident about that.

[Mr Slaughter]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Hunt]

I will give way in a minute, but this is an Opposition day debate, so I want to return to the central motion. Let me remind the right hon. Member for Leigh that he told this House—in fact, he had an Opposition day debate to do it—that the NHS budget had been cut in real terms. It had not: it rose. He also claimed that the number of nurses was being cut, when actually it went up. His attempts to talk up a winter crisis have been disproved time and again. That is important, because we have not had a proper apology to this House in relation to the letter he received from the chief executive of the south-western ambulance trust complaining about his spinning, which stated:

“information provided to your office in response to a Freedom of Information request…has been misinterpreted and misreported in order to present a grossly inaccurate picture for the purposes of apparent political gain.”

The right hon. Gentleman should not be playing politics with the pressures in A and E; he should be getting behind front-line staff, who are working extremely hard and who find that kind of tactic extremely demoralising.

[Andy Burnham]

For the record, I am afraid that the letter the Secretary of State quotes had its facts wrong. The information provided by the south-western ambulance service that I quoted was accurate. I wrote to the service the day it wrote to me to put it straight, and I am afraid it has not come back since and said that I was wrong; so again, let us get the facts straight. We have had enough spin from the Secretary of State; he needs to start dealing in a bit of fact.

[Mr Hunt]

I will tell the right hon. Gentleman exactly what the facts are. The other word I heard him use several times in his speech was “complacency”. I will tell him what complacency is: it is complaining about an English NHS that is hitting its A and E targets and completely ignoring Labour-controlled Wales, where the NHS has been missing its A and E targets since 2009. Something else that is complacent is this idea Labour has that, almost a year after the Francis report, the lessons of Mid Staffs stop at the border of England and Wales—that Wales has nothing to learn and does not need to do a Keogh report into excess mortality rates, which the Welsh Labour Government have consistently refused to do. People in Welsh hospitals are suffering because the Welsh NHS has refused to bite the bullet on excess mortality rates.

[Mr Slaughter]

Tonight, at a “Save Our Hospitals” meeting in west London, I shall be speaking to A and E doctors and GPs about the largest-ever closure programme: four NHS emergency departments are to close in west London. Eight west London MPs, including me, have asked the Secretary of State to meet us and discuss the issue. Shall I tell those who attend tonight’s meeting that the Secretary of State is still refusing to meet eight MPs who collectively represent nearly a million people in west London?

[Mr Hunt]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I must follow a strict legal process in relation to such decisions, and we have had an extensive consultation. However, let me say this to him. When he talks to those MPs, he should tell them the facts about the proposals for north-west London which I approved—proposals for three brand-new hospitals in which seven-day working is to be introduced, 24/7 obstetrics, 16/7 paediatrics, seven-day opening of GP’s surgeries, and a range of other services which will help to address precisely the issues raised by the right hon. Member for Leigh in connection with transforming out-of-hospital care, which I support. As a result of those proposals, the services that I have listed will be available in north-west London before they will be available in many other parts of the country. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will inform the MPs whom he is meeting of those important facts.

[Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD)]

My right hon. Friend may remember that in 2009 the Labour Government transferred an A and E unit from Burnley to Blackburn, some 15 miles away. Last week, we opened the doors of a new emergency facility in Burnley to replace the one that Labour had shipped out. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is right to invest capital in A and E, and to stop listening to the rubbish that is being spoken by Labour Members?

[Mr Hunt]

I understand my hon. Friend’s frustration. This is the shadow Secretary of State who said that it was irresponsible to maintain the NHS budget at its current levels and who actually believes that it should be cut, and he has stuck to that position. It is not possible to make such investments by following the right hon. Gentleman’s advice.

The right hon. Gentleman talked a great deal about competition, and I am afraid that his comments about that also showed a wilful disregard for the facts. He raised two distinct issues, and he was right to do so, because they are important. The first relates to mergers. NHS hospitals often need to concentrate services for clinical and safety reasons, but the involvement of the Office of Fair Trading and the Competition Commission is not a result of the Health and Social Care Act 2012, as the right hon. Gentleman alleged. As he well knows, it is as a result of powers that they have under Labour’s Enterprise Act 2002. All my Front-Bench colleagues agree with me that we must ensure that when those powers are exercised, they are exercised in a way that is in the best interests of patients. For that reason, I have had useful discussions with both the Competition and Markets Authority—which is replacing the OFT and the Competition Commission—and Monitor about how their respective roles can be clarified.

[Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab)]

If the Secretary of State believes that, can he explain why the Health and Social Care Act contains a section stating that any mergers of NHS trusts must be referred to the Office of Fair Trading and the Competition Commission?

[Mr Hunt]

Yes, I can explain that. When drafting the Act, my predecessor wanted to ensure that investigations would not be carried out by both Monitor and the Competition Commission. [Interruption.] If Members wish me to answer the question, I will happily do so.

If we repealed the Health and Social Care Act—as the right hon. Gentleman has often argued should happen—the Competition Commission and the OFT, or the Competition and Markets Authority, would still have the power to stop mergers, under the Enterprise Act. The right hon. Gentleman should get his facts right before presenting his arguments.

Secondly, the Health and Social Care Act did not introduce new rules in relation to procurement. For all the efforts of the right hon. Member for Leigh to convince people otherwise, clinical commissioning groups observe the same procurement requirements as applied to primary care trusts. Labour may have made many mistakes in office, and the right hon. Gentleman may have shifted his own views dramatically to the left, but it will not do for him to try to seek cover for that by attaching blame to the Health and Social Care Act.

[Andy Burnham]

If everything is exactly the same, why did the Government legislate? Why did they need a 300-page Bill if they were doing everything that the previous Government had done? Let the Secretary of State answer this question directly. There was a huge debate in the House about section 75 of the Health and Social Care Act, and his Minister had to withdraw the regulations and rewrite them, but the view of the entire NHS is that section 75 requires services to be put out to open tender, and does not leave discretion with GPs. GPs cannot decide, as the Secretary of State has claimed. Services are being forced out to open tender. Is that the correct position, or is it not?

[Mr Hunt]

Let me make the position absolutely clear.

[Andy Burnham]

Answer!

[Mr Hunt]

I am about to answer, if the right hon. Gentleman will be a little bit patient. The Act does not change the procurement requirements under which PCTs operated. It does not change the locus of the Competition Commission or the OFT under the Enterprise Act.

While we are correcting some facts, the right hon. Gentleman may be interested to know—as would my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), but he is no longer in the Chamber—that we have the figures for the number of people admitted to the NHS with scurvy in 2011-12 and in 2012-13. In 2011-12, the number of admissions not just to A and E departments but in total—[Interruption.] Yes, including A and E departments. In 2011-12, eight people were admitted—[Interruption.] This was the right hon. Gentleman’s big argument about why A and E departments are under so much pressure. In 2012-13, 18 people were admitted. With the greatest respect, I think that the right hon. Gentleman is building his house on sand.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

We have figures for 2010-11, because they were included in the answer to a parliamentary question that I asked just before Christmas. The Minister of State, who is present, replied that they were not the total figures, because the Department had the hospital admission figures but did not have the figures for primary care admissions.

[Mr Hunt]

With the greatest respect, what we heard earlier from the right hon. Member for Leigh was a big argument about a massive growth of pressure on A and E departments that had been caused by, among other things, scurvy, and we found that the total number of admissions was 18. I think that that says a great deal.

[Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)]

On the subject of disastrous mistakes made by the Labour Government, may I point out that one of the omissions in their motion is the lack of any apology for the £63 billion ticking time bomb generated by off-balance-sheet dodgy deals under the private finance initiative? The worst in the whole country, which was signed off by the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) at Peterborough and Stamford Hospitals Trust, has produced an indicative structural debt of £40 million a year. [Interruption.]

[Mr Hunt]

I am afraid that my hon. Friend is absolutely right. Perhaps the situation is put into perspective when we know that those PFI deals are costing the NHS more than £1 billion a year: £1 billion that could have been spent on providing compassionate care and looking after patients with dignity and respect, but instead is having to finance Labour’s appalling mismanaged PFI contracts.

Let me return to the issues raised by the right hon. Member for Leigh. I think that a much more substantive argument relates to the things that he chose not to say. This is the day before the anniversary of the Mid Staffs report, and this is the day on which hospitals are finally putting behind them Labour’s appalling legacy of poor care. We have 14 hospitals in special measures—all of them, incidentally, with A and E departments—making encouraging progress after a very difficult year, with 650 additional nursing staff and 50 board-level replacements between them. Every single one of those hospitals had warning signs under Labour, but rather than sorting out the problems, Labour chose to sweep them under the carpet, sometimes because they had arisen during the run-up to an election. There are 5,900 more clinical staff in the NHS than there were a year ago, and there are 3,300 more hospital nurses than there were at the time of the last election. All those people are vital to the functioning of our A and E departments.

Bullying, harassment and intimidation were perhaps the ugliest features of Labour’s management of the NHS. Now we have seen courageous A and E whistleblower Helene Donnelly being given a new year honour, alongside brave campaigner Julie Bailey, who was literally left out in the cold when she came to lobby the right hon. Member for Leigh about poor care at Mid Staffs.

There is much to do—poor care persists in too many places—but with a new Ofsted-style inspection regime, in England but not in Labour-run Wales, we can at least be confident that poor care in A and E departments and throughout hospitals will be highlighted quickly, and not hidden away. We will keep people out of A and E departments in the first place—that is something to which the right hon. Gentleman referred—with the return of named GPs for the over-75s and integrated health and social care through the better care fund: precisely the joined-up, personal and compassionate care that was envisaged when the NHS was founded 65 years ago.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

Was not one of the key points that Francis made about transparency? The Secretary of State is making claims about staffing numbers which are not recognised. Ministers have had the opportunity to go along with a better scheme of transparency in hospitals, whereby they display every day on the ward their staffing ratios—as Salford Royal does. The Secretary of State will not accept that, however. If he thinks that putting out the totals of staff once a month is an adequate way of dealing with the Francis recommendations, he is fooling himself.

[Mr Hunt]

We on the Government Benches will take absolutely no lessons about transparency in the NHS from Labour after what it did for so many years. I think what we are introducing is a huge step forward, because for the first time every hospital in the country will, as a minimum, have to publish their ward-by-ward staffing ratios every single month. They can publish more—they can do what Salford does—but for every hospital in the country to do that every month is a huge step forward.

[James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)]

The Secretary of State talks about finding alternatives to people presenting at A and E. May I commend Rowley Regis hospital in my constituency, which has just opened a GP-led primary care assessment centre in order to deal with people in the community—in a community setting—rather than having to refer to A and E? That hospital used to have five in-patient wards, but they were closed by the Labour party and the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) when he was Secretary of State. However, three of them have been reopened in the past three years, which is a substantial new investment in a very important community hospital.

[Mr Hunt]

I commend what is happening; it is very important that locally driven solutions are providing good alternatives to going to A and E. One of the most important things we can do for my hon. Friend’s constituents is make sure we have proper continuity of care so that for our most vulnerable patients there is a doctor who knows what is up with them at any time, whether they are in or out of hospital, and who can give them joined-up care and make sure they have a proper care plan wrapped around them. That is the kind of care we need to see.

[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend is making a very pertinent point about transparency, because again what the Opposition refuse to acknowledge is how many patients were left off the books. It has been discovered in my hospital trust that a significant number of patients who were not discharged because there was not a link-up with social care were left off the books and so did not show in the statistics.

[Mr Hunt]

I think my hon. Friend is talking about the issues in West Hertfordshire trust, which I am extremely concerned about. The whole House will want to get behind the efforts of the outstanding chief executive there, who is sorting out those problems.

It is of course challenging when we read about these things in the media, but we have to remember that it is essential that poor care or cover-ups such as the ones that may have happened in that case are brought to the surface very quickly. That is the big change we want to make.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Hunt]

I want to make some progress, but I will give way once more.

[Guy Opperman]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is the right policy to highlight trusts such as Northumbria, which is leading the way on integration between hospice care and local authorities, and which is also assisting another trust, in this case North Cumbria, which is presently in special measures and which we hope will come out of them very soon?

[Mr Hunt]

Absolutely. One of the most encouraging developments in the last year was the setting up of buddying systems so that hospitals in difficulty such as North Cumbria—where I think there was a pay-out of £3.6 million to just one person under the last Government because of some utterly appalling care—are given help by a hospital that is being run well.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Hunt]

I shall give way one last time.

[Mr Marcus Jones]

Will my right hon. Friend join me in welcoming the progress being made under the Keogh review at the George Eliot hospital, where changes to working practices and more innovation are meaning that the A and E department is turning into one of the best performing in the country?

[Mr Hunt]

I am delighted with the progress being made at the George Eliot and I commend my hon. Friend on the interest he has shown. A lot of that progress has come also from the outstanding support from Dame Julie Moore and the Queen Elizabeth hospital in Birmingham.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hunt]

I will make some progress, because I need to make one final point.

All of these changes cost money, at a time when we are still living with the economic mess we inherited from Labour. None of these changes would be possible without the tough decisions we took on public spending in 2010, all opposed by Labour, which allowed the NHS budget to be protected and, as growth returns to the economy, secured for the long term.

[Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Hunt]

No. Had Labour won the last election, the NHS budget would not just have been cut at the outset; it would have been cut and cut again as the country was brought to its knees in a Greece, Portugal or Ireland-style collapse.

[Mr Reed]

rose—

[Mr Hunt]

Our amendment talks about the Francis report, which I know is desperately uncomfortable territory for the Labour Opposition—the 81 times they refused to have a public inquiry; the 50 warning signs missed by Labour Ministers and the officials working for them; the warning signs ignored at countless other hospitals now in special measures.

[Mr Reed]

rose—

[Mr Hunt]

It was a grim saga—

[Mr Reed]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Mr Reed, the Secretary of State has repeatedly made it clear that he is not prepared to give way to you, so perhaps we could move on with the debate. Perhaps you will find another way to make your point.

[Mr Hunt]

I think that that demonstrates, Madam Deputy Speaker, how much the Labour Opposition do not like hearing about the failings at Mid Staffs.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. I say to the Secretary of State that actually it does not indicate anything except that you do not wish to give way to the hon. Gentleman. So, return to your speech.

[Mr Hunt]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We will all draw our own conclusions about why the Opposition are using these tactics, but I want to offer the Opposition today, a year after the Francis report, a chance to draw a line under this whole tragedy. I as Secretary of State am happy to move on from Mid Staffs in terms of the debates in this House if the Opposition pass three tests: to tell Labour in Wales to do a Keogh-style mortality review so that we deal with the poor safety in Welsh hospitals, just as we are doing in England; to apologise to the relatives and survivors of Mid Staffs not just for what happened, but for the policy mistakes that led to what happened; and to commit Labour to more compassionate, safer care in the NHS by promising never to accuse those who highlight problems of “running down the NHS”, and instead to support every whistleblower and concerned member of the public when they raise concerns. Do that, and the world will know that Labour has changed; but fail to do it, and the country will know for sure that the NHS is simply not safe in Labour’s hands.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—