Finances of the House of Commons

Jake Berry Excerpts

Thursday 21st November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

I am glad that my right hon. Friend is addressing the point about the education centre. Has he ever had a complaint from any visiting school or constituent about the standard of the education service in the House?

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I am certainly not aware of any complaints. The education service does a very good job. The question is how we can increase the capacity and do a better job. At the moment, we are very constrained by such circumstances as where people are brought into the Palace.

It is absurd that people may have to queue for a long time before being brought in at the north door of Westminster Hall, and then have to be taken all the way through the building to commence the tour back through it. Handling our visitors in that way makes us unique as a visitor attraction. With a dedicated education centre, there is no doubt that we could enhance the experience of people when they arrive and take them through the building along the proper pathway originally established for tours, as well as to extend our reach to many more schools. I accept the need to expand the funding that we have made available to schools further from London to make it easier for them to come here.

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[Andrew Miller]

My hon. Friend is clearly looking over my shoulder at my notes, because I was going to say that one of the considerations is to undertake a parallel project using tools such as the Microsoft Surface. Historically, the House has used Microsoft tools for its base documentation, so the software support for other technology may prove to be more efficient and effective if the Microsoft operating system is used, instead of crossing over between it and the Apple operating system. The Finance and Services Committee needs to make investment decisions if it is to continue with this project.

I intervened a number of times on the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, and I make a number of pleas to him and the House. He rightly set out a solid case for why we should be an exemplary employer—if we cannot do that, how can we expect the rest of the country to follow suit? In his final remarks he mentioned the potential court case. I do not accept that an exemplary employer will, at some stage, inevitably end up in court, and I urge the House to use all resources available to you, Mr Speaker, the Committees and the Commission, to work to resolve that problem and avoid the courts.

Court costs are astronomical. Lawyers get rich in these things—[Interruption.] There are a few lawyers in the House saying, “Hear, hear”, which is worrying. Vested interests always come forward. It seems to me, however, that it is incumbent on all Members of the House to try to resolve the problem without recourse to the courts, both because I do not want to make the lawyers any richer, and because that is our duty as a good—exemplary—employer. I present the challenge not only to the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, but to you, Mr Speaker, to try and resolve that.

I am 110% in support of the Visitor Centre, and my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) set out a logical case for the use of the location. One more entrance that could have been considered are the gates from Derby Gate to the gap between Portcullis House and the Parliament street building. That may not be suitable for other reasons, and although it is not true to say that the proposed route is the only way, I recognise it is one that would work.

It is hugely important that early indications from the restoration and renewal project are factored into questions of timing so that we do not end up spending money on a project that will then be mothballed for years. It is not a question of whether people support the project—all Members will support facilities that help us bring in the next generation of people and improve their understanding of what we do—but it must be considered carefully before any major commitments are made. An early interim report from whoever the Finance and Services Committee appoints, could easily result in someone saying, “Hang on a minute”, which would put everything on hold because we would have to get out of here sooner rather than later.

I spent time on the Terrace during the September sitting, and I was astonished at the rodent infestation that I saw.

[Jake Berry]

That’s just the MPs!

[Andrew Miller]

I was going to say that I did not mean Tory MPs by that, but we are facing serious problems. Through an interest in this building, some years ago I made a film about its geology. That resulted in me getting into places where most right hon. and hon. Members never go, such as the roof of the House of Lords or down in the basement. I have been down and looked at some of the structural issues, which are potentially very concerning, and we should not ignore the possibility that the subject of decanting might come up quicker than we thought. Against that background, when considering expenditure plans we must be prepared to say that a lot of them might have to be put on hold if an interim report suggests that things are as serious as they appear.

My final point is to the Leader of the House and my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife. One cost we are bearing—I do not know the exact figures, but they would be possible to calculate; I do not know whether the Finance and Services Committee has done that—concerns the terms during which we sit, particularly the September sitting. I fully understand the argument used by the late Robin Cook and subsequently the current Government about the merits of the September sitting, but is a bit of a myth. If we shifted those two weeks to either end of the summer period, what savings could be built into the restoration and repair programme during that period? I think they would be quite significant, and the House needs to look at that as another way of saving money.

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[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. If an all-party group is in hock to one particular organisation, I would expect the same sort of disclosure that I have mentioned to be applied and abided by. I do not want to get too involved in the minutiae, but perhaps we could gently suggest to my right hon. Friend the Chairman of the Administration Committee that he carry out a further inquiry into the matter and come up with some distinct recommendations to deal with it. There is at least a debate to be had about who should have access to this place, on what basis and under which charging regime, hence my gentle suggestion to my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) as a possible way forward.

In an intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, I made it clear, as has he, that savings should happen only provided that they do not hamper our work as Members of Parliament. I put the work of Select Committees very distinctly in that category. Since their introduction, which was agreed, as my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) said, by Margaret Thatcher when she was Prime Minister, Select Committees have been an outstanding success in this Parliament, providing a model that many other Parliaments around the world are following.

I have hosted some foreign delegations that came here specifically to look at how our Select Committees work, and they are now beginning to adopt similar methods in their own countries, while the Westminster Foundation has sent out experts from the Select Committees around the world precisely to explain how they work. It would be a great pity—no, it would be more than that; it would be a serious limiting effect—if we limited the work of Select Committees by the amount of finance they receive. There clearly needs to be a budget. My suggestion would be for each Select Committee to put in its bid within an overall budget that is administered by the Chairman of the Liaison Committee. If a Select Committee has a particular problem for a good, well-made reason, it might need to incur additional expenditure through the year and should be able to go before the Chair to make its case. If the overall budget were breached, our Committee would have to look at it. That might be a way forward.

I shall next deal briefly with the restoration and renewal programme, whose budget will run into many hundreds of millions if not to £1 billion or more. We are therefore talking about a very big project indeed, and the possible savings to be made are immense. I commend the Chairman of our Committee on having guided us to ensure we have proper professional consultants to do a thorough appraisal; I say that as a chartered surveyor. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross that work done at the beginning on proper scoping and appraisal will save us from having to do more work in the long run.

Furthermore, that will not only help us with the financial aspects of this huge project but help us decide which of the three strands my hon. Friend mentions is the most appropriate one for this House. As a chartered surveyor who has taken part in large projects—perhaps not as large as this one—it seems to me that we will probably end up doing the most efficient job and saving the most work if we adopt the more extreme option, which is to decamp this House. If we do decamp, however, we should make it clear that there is a very strict time penalty on the contractor because we should only be out of here for the minimum possible time, and Parliament should make it absolutely clear that we are coming back in here, into an improved environment.

As others Members have said, if one goes down into the basement of this place one realises how fragile the overall services are. Our heating, lighting and IT and communication services are very fragile indeed, and our works department and works contractors do a fantastic job in keeping them going, but there is only so long that that can be done before a complete renewal will be needed. As has been said, there has not been such a complete renewal, and certainly not on the entire building, although part of it burnt down during the war. Some of the services in this place are therefore very ancient indeed, and we will need to look very carefully at that in the restoration and renewal programme.

Indeed, we need to look at some of the services fairly carefully now. I have an office in Portcullis house and I was without electricity for a day and a half a week or two ago. I am told that some parts relating to the electrical copper wiring are no longer available and it was confirmed in the Committee yesterday that it is entirely possible that that building, which is only 10 years old, may need complete rewiring. We do need to get these systems right because we cannot be hampered in our jobs by being without the basics of electricity, computers, telephones and so forth. Indeed, we cannot do our jobs without them.

The education centre is a subject of some controversy. In the light of the change of culture I have been talking about—running things efficiently in this place—I have to inform Members that, when the House originally passed the idea of an education centre, the initial budget proposed was a whopping £86.3 million. The budget today for the centre in Victoria tower gardens is some £6.1 million. That seems to me to be much more acceptable. Let me make it absolutely clear that I am in favour of this idea in principle because it is right that we should get as many of our schoolchildren around this place to see how this fount of democracy works and what we actually do on a day-to-day basis, because if they saw more of what we actually do, they would appreciate why it is important to elect Members of Parliament and they would bother to vote in elections, and the whole of our democratic system would be strengthened.

[Jake Berry]

My hon. Friend mentions the £6.1 million budget for the construction of the new education centre. Can he enlighten the House as to the annual running costs that would be incurred on top of that?

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

Yes, I can. Let us separate the capital cost and the running cost. I have thought about this whole thing quite carefully, and I have thought about what my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross said in his opening remarks. I was initially opposed to the idea because I felt it would be a waste of money to build a demountable building that was likely to be put out of use when we started the R and R programme in some seven to 10 years’ time, as we would have that structure in Victoria tower gardens for only a fraction of its life and then it would not be used. As a chartered surveyor, I think that there will be some resale value to this building, however, and I believe it is still worth doing even if we decamp from it when we start the R and R programme in some seven to 10 years’ time, as I suspect we will have to, as it will be in the way.

The running cost, which includes the £470,000 extra for security, will be about £1.5 million a year. That is a substantial sum, but with at least 55,000 schoolchildren coming around this place, it is an important contribution the taxpayer will be making to strengthening our democracy.

[Jake Berry]

I am sure my hon. Friend will acknowledge that in total that is £20 million over a 10-year period, so it is £2 million a year. Does he not think that a more reasonable solution could be to rent a building in the vicinity of Parliament?

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

It is not too late for that. As a property person, I think we could see if there is an office we could rent somewhere along the road from which we could do the job just as well. It is not too late to do that, but a solution has been identified that will also improve the travel path, as it were, through these buildings. At the moment schoolchildren are led in from the 1 Parliament street end of the building and all the way through, causing trouble at the pinch-point of the elevator from Portcullis house. If we take them in from the other end of the building, their flow around these buildings will be much better. I can see that my hon. Friend is not entirely convinced and I was not entirely convinced when we discussed this in Committee. However, I do think it is important that we get these children around this place.

One problem with getting schoolchildren around this building is that there is a London-centric issue. Those schools nearer London tend to come to Parliament more often than those further away. Therefore, we must do everything we can in terms of grants to make sure schools further from London get every possible assistance, so we can spread this visitor attraction to schoolchildren around the country as much as possible.

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[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

Mr Speaker, I always wish to accept your encouragement for fear that I might not get it another time.

I just want to say a word or two about our ICT systems. The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) and others mentioned tablet computers. I am a bit of an IT dinosaur, but even I have got one, and even I can use it in Committee.

[Jake Berry]

Keep taking the tablets.

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[Ms Eagle]

The hon. Gentleman is already beginning to think creatively about where savings could be released, and we should do a lot more of that. I know that this is a radical proposal, and that it will ruffle some feathers, not least because the administration structures have grown up separately and guard their independence jealously. None the less, it is about time that we had a look at that anomaly and thought about how we might address it.

We have had an interesting debate on the prospect of the House raising revenue. At one end of the proposals is the suggestion that the cost of providing for those who visit us should at least be offset. At the other end are suggestions for more proactive revenue raising. Much of this is sensible and acceptable, although I acknowledge and share some of the worries that have been expressed today about the more radical proposals to rent this place out on a completely commercial basis. I hope we can all agree that we should expect to cover the costs of welcoming visitors, but we need much more debate on the prospect of renting out the building to all and sundry on a purely commercial basis. I share the feelings of unease about those more radical proposals. We are first and foremost a democratic Parliament, not a commercial proposition.

Much work still needs to be done on the matter of restoration and renewal. The subject is going to take up a huge amount of our attention, but it is not doing so at the moment so I shall leave the matter there, given the shortness of time for this debate.

On the education centre, I am a great supporter of the plans for the extended education service, and I think we should just get on with it. There are generations of young people out there who deserve to have access to our Parliament. I welcome the ambition to double the number of young people who visit Parliament. This is part of our need to renew our connection with those people who sometimes look askance at what we do here and who perhaps think that politics has nothing to do with them.

[Jake Berry]

The hon. Lady mentions the education centre. A brand new secondary school in my constituency —the Darwen Aldridge community academy—was constructed for just over £20,000. We have heard—

[Andrew Miller]

Only £20,000?

[Jake Berry]

I am sorry; I meant £20 million. We have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) that the building and running costs of the temporary educational buildings and classrooms here would be £20 million over 10 years. Does the hon. Lady think that it is better to have a brand new secondary school in a Member’s constituency or to have temporary accommodation here in Parliament?

[Ms Eagle]

With all due respect, the hon. Gentleman is positing a false choice. It is important for the strength of our democracy that young people—from constituencies as far away as mine, not just from London—should be enabled to visit our Parliament, as part of their education, to see how it works. This is not an either/or in relation to providing education in Members’ constituencies. I am a great supporter of the proposals for the education centre, and I think it will prove to be good value for money.

I welcome this annual debate. It is already throwing a welcome light on the decisions that are taken by the House’s administration Committees that meet behind the scenes, in a way that I hope Members of the House and people outside will appreciate. I commend you, Mr Speaker, for agreeing to our holding this debate, and I welcome the fact that we are now holding such debates annually. Time is short, so I shall now allow the Leader of the House to tell us what he thinks.

Business of the House

Jake Berry Excerpts

Thursday 21st November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I know that the House will be as concerned as the hon. Gentleman and his constituents about this. I will, if I may, talk to my right hon. Friend at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and ask him to respond to the hon. Gentleman and the House on what steps can be taken.

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

The Britannia Coco-nutters, led by their longest serving member, Dick Shufflebottom, have danced in Bacup in my constituency for the past 156 years. They survived the depression, two world wars and the winter of discontent, but it looks as though their boundary dance may not survive the health and safety inspectors from Rossendale borough council and Lancashire county council. Will my right hon. Friend ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government to come to the House and make a statement about how the Britannia Coco-nutters can be accommodated for generations to come?

[Mr Lansley]

I am interested to learn about this from my hon. Friend as, I am sure, are my hon. Friends at the Department for Communities and Local Government. If the matter relates to the Health and Safety Executive in particular, the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, our hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), who I know takes a common-sense view of things, will be happy to talk to my hon. Friend about how such provisions are properly applied in this case.

Business of the House

Jake Berry Excerpts

Thursday 10th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the opportunity to remind the House that business confidence is up, consumer confidence is up, exports are up, construction is up, manufacturing is up, growth forecasts are up, and that only this week the International Monetary Fund’s international outlook upgraded its forecast for the UK economy for this year and next year by more than any other major economy.

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

Will the Leader of the House ask the Secretary of State for Health to come to the House to make a statement about the recent changes proposed in Europe to both the packaging of tobacco and the banning of menthol cigarettes? While we all support anything that reduces the number of people who take up smoking and reduces the number of cigarettes that people smoke, the House needs to have the opportunity to debate this serious health issue.

[Mr Lansley]

These are important issues and the House will want to consider the agreement in Europe this week on the tobacco directive. Rather than the Secretary of State coming to the House to make a statement, the proper route is for the issue to be scrutinised by the European Scrutiny Committee. If the Committee then recommends a debate in the House, we will seek to achieve that.

Business of the House

Jake Berry Excerpts

Thursday 27th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

Since I do not accept the premise, I am not planning to arrange such a thing.

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

It could be genuinely useful for Members of all parties to have a debate on youth unemployment, including on apprentices, in Rossendale and Darwen. Over the last 12 months, youth unemployment has dropped by 20%, and we have tripled the number of people entering into apprenticeships since the general election. It would useful to explore whether that supports our world-class manufacturing and what it says about the hugely successful 100 in 100 campaign, which we are now running for our second year.

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend makes very important points. I cannot offer an immediate debate, but I hope that an opportunity will arise before too long, because the 1 million apprenticeships created under this Government are vital and are making an enormous difference. We have persistent, worrying and continuing levels of youth unemployment, which grew under the last Government at a time when the economy was growing and even before we hit the Labour-induced recession. This programme should, through traineeships alongside apprenticeships, help some of the young people who have found the greatest difficulty getting into work. That will also help us to achieve the Government’s objectives clearly set out in the Queen’s Speech, which is to ensure that all young people gain access to traineeships, apprenticeships or college-based education.

House of Lords Reform Bill

Jake Berry Excerpts

Tuesday 10th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

As a strong supporter of the coalition Government and the need for strong government at a time of financial crisis, I find myself in the extremely difficult position of not being able to support them this evening. Within the limited time frame available, it would be difficult to go into all the reasons now. We have heard excellent speeches by Members in all parts of the House. I want to focus on two key issues in the Bill: first, the primacy of the House of Commons; and secondly, the impact on elected Members of this House and their relationship with their constituents.

At a general election, through the first-past-the-post system, the public will decide to support or change the Government. The Government will generally get their way through the manifesto. The other place holds the Government to account according to the manifesto. It will offer advice and often slow things down to enable the Government in the House of Commons to rethink, but by convention this House will always get its way. Electing Members to the other place will change that. The relationship between both places will change, and election to the other House will give its elected Members the moral right to reject legislation that comes from this place. Conventions that have developed and evolved over many generations will become a thing of the past.

Think of it, Mr Deputy Speaker. A new Government might find that they cannot get their way. There will be constitutional deadlock and the ping-pong that we have experienced on some occasions will become commonplace. Some Members argue that that is not the case and that the Parliament Acts will preserve the primacy of this House. However, using the Parliament Acts will become commonplace. It will no longer be a significant step, but merely part of the normal process of any Government in this House who seek to get their way and to force their legislation through.

That means that the elected Members in the other place will be second-class citizens. If this House can simply force its will through, time and again, on every piece of legislation because the Members of the other place are not important enough to make a difference, why should Members of this House show them any respect at all? That will create an unsustainable situation.

The second element of my speech, in the limited time that I have, relates to the relationship that there will be between elected Members in the other place, Members of Parliament and our constituents. I have been a regional Member of the Welsh Assembly and have observed the activities of regional Assembly Members of all parties. The result will be that our constituents will have several elected Members who are responsible for the same areas of policy and legislation.

Regional Members will have a habit of picking and choosing the issues that they think are the most important and most popular. They will deal with significant issues when it suits them and will be nowhere to be seen when there are awkward and uncomfortable issues for the electorate. They will accept all the credit, but none of the responsibility. That will undermine the role of the Member of Parliament in relation to their constituents and weaken the Member of Parliament.

The relationship between the Member of Parliament and the elected Members in the other place will become competitive. Regional Members will focus on specific areas in marginal seats. There is nothing in the legislation to prevent an elected Member of the other House from spending all their time and resources in the most marginal part of the most marginal constituency in an attempt to further their cause of being elected to this place.

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware that that issue is covered in the Bill. There will be a bar on people going straight from the other place into this House should it become an Act of Parliament.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his contribution. However, the activities of a regional Member will certainly undermine the activities of a Member of Parliament. I will give two examples from the Welsh Assembly. One regional Assembly Member opened two constituency offices in one marginal seat, even though they had responsibility for two thirds of the geography of Wales. Another regional Assembly Member focused all their activities, surgeries, street surgeries and campaign meetings on the most marginal area of the most marginal seat to further their party’s cause. It can therefore be done on an individual or party basis. We should bear it in mind that the elected Members of the other place will by and large be party appointments, so they will be able to focus all of their activity in that way.

The reforms will undermine the independence of the other place and its Members, and lead to constitutional deadlock between the two Houses.

Business of the House

Jake Berry Excerpts

Thursday 22nd March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

May I start by saying that I have given notice to the right hon. Gentleman to whom I will refer in this question? I join my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) in calling for a debate on the morally repugnant use of service companies by those in public life to avoid paying their fair share of tax. In that debate, can we look in particular at the tax arrangements of the Labour candidate for Mayor of London and the recent publication of the accounts for the Office of Gordon and Sarah Brown Ltd?

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

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[Mr Speaker]

Just before we move to the next business, there is one matter with which I should like to deal. In the course of business questions, the hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry) prefaced his question by indicating that he had notified the right hon. Member to whom he was about to refer in advance of coming to the Chamber. I simply want to say this to the hon. Gentleman and the House: advance notification to a Member of an intention to refer to that Member is, of itself, not sufficient; much depends on what is then said. I say for the benefit of the hon. Gentleman and the House that where an accusation or implication of possible improper conduct is made, that must be done either by a reference to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards or upon a substantive motion. It should not be done in the course of a question. That was wrong, and a discourtesy—unintentional, I am sure—to the House. Therefore, I invite the hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen to apologise to the House for that discourtesy. He should now rise from his seat and apologise for that discourtesy, which I accept and am sure was unintentional.

[Jake Berry]

Mr Speaker, I apologise for an unintentional discourtesy to the House.

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his apology. I think that deals with the matter.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jake Berry Excerpts

Thursday 22nd March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vaizey]

I have regular contact with the Scottish Government, who have welcomed the funding and are putting in their own funding to support broadband roll-out in Scotland.

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

It was once said that the entire empire hung by Lancashire’s thread. Will the Minister join me in congratulating Lancashire county council on prioritising superfast broadband? The entire county now hangs from its fibre optic cable.

[Mr Vaizey]

I am happy to join my hon. Friend in congratulating Lancashire on its superfast broadband. It is a very innovative and go-ahead authority, which has also been particularly pioneering in libraries.

Charging for Access to Parliament

Jake Berry Excerpts

Thursday 15th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[John Thurso]

The Commission put forward the overall figure of 17% savings in real terms during the summer of 2010. That figure informed all the documentation that has come out since, and it is the target. I actually hope that we can go further than that, because the process has demonstrated that many of the ways in which we do things have remained unchanged for many years, decades even. When they have been properly examined and re-engineered, it has been found that there are real and considerable savings to be made, not only monetary savings but increases in the efficiency of our work patterns.

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[John Thurso]

I will.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. May I remind the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) that he is up against the clock, and that when he gives way he is not getting any extra time?

[Jake Berry]

How can we be talking about charging people for tours of Big Ben when we still have people who work in the House occupying grace and favour mansions at the taxpayer’s expense?

[John Thurso]

I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point, but you have just reminded me, Mr Deputy Speaker, that I have substantial progress to make in a very short time, so I will move on.

In 2004-05, the estimate—our total cost—was £189 million. In 2009-10, it was £278 million. Even taking out the one-offs and exceptionals, that was an increase in excess of 25% in the cost of this place in five years, more than twice the rate of inflation. This year, the out-turn is expected to be in the order of £205 million to £206 million, which is a substantial saving. The programme has been undertaken by the Management Board, and I think it has done an excellent job of examining very professionally what is going on. I see that the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) is leaving her place, but before she does so, may I say to her that I do not believe there are too many managers here or that they are distant from those at the bottom? The board is well constructed and does its very best to ensure that it is in full touch with both the staff and Members’ needs.

There is no question, nor has there ever been, that access to the Palace and the parliamentary process will be charged for at any time. However, I put it to hon. Members that we get more than £1.5 million in income from tours. We have been charging for summer tours for 10 years, and we are piloting art tours for which we charge £15. I say in parenthesis that the other place charges £30 for its tours—I do not know whether the art is better. We have a long history over the past 10 to 15 years of opening up the parts of this place that are not available to the public for a variety of reasons, and recovering the specific costs of doing so. I put it to my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow that what we are proposing for the Clock Tower is very much in line with that principle.

I invite my hon. Friend to accept my amendment, which would allow the Commission and the Finance and Services Committee, which I chair, to consider the points that he has made, take them on board and return with an appropriate proposal. I ask him and other hon. Members to accept that as a better way forward. The answers to all his other questions will have to wait for another day.

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[Thomas Docherty]

I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point and I entirely agree with him. As you know, Mr Deputy Speaker, I have repeatedly raised in the House at business questions the issue of grace of favour apartments, because those arrangements need to be looked at.

[Jake Berry]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Thomas Docherty]

I need to make progress.

On accessibility, the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) may wish to know that only seven of his constituents have taken the opportunity during his term of office to come and see the Big Ben Tower. If we are to find money for transparency, it would be better to take Parliament to places more far-flung than central London.

[Jake Berry]

I intervened during the previous speech on the issue of grace and favour apartments. Will the hon. Gentleman confirm whether any discussions have taken place with the Chairman of his Commission as to whether his grace and favour apartment should be surrendered?

[Thomas Docherty]

I was not aware that the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) has a grace and favour apartment. Perhaps the hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry) knows something I do not—the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden, who is in his place, is the Chairman of the Administration Committee, of which I am a member.

I should make progress on the point I was making. The hon. Member for Harlow made a point about the 17% saving, but I should point out that that is the Government’s figure—

[Jake Berry]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Could you give me some guidance as to a remedy? The hon. Gentleman did not hear what I said. I referred to the Chairman of the Commission.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

That is a point of clarification and it has been well made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

May I say what a privilege it is to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride)? I was not originally intending to speak in today’s debate because I felt that charging people £15 to go up the Westminster Clock Tower might seem remote to the people of Rossendale and Darwen—from where it costs nearly £100 to get here on a train. I changed my mind because on my most recent leaflet, “Rossendale and Darwen Matters”—delivered free to the door by the MP—I included a line about Parliament belonging to the people, saying that it was always open for them to visit me here. I have been overwhelmed by the response of so many Lancashire people saying that they want to visit this great building.

As MPs, I believe we should look at how to save money within Parliament, and I commend the 17% target. I read in a newspaper recently about proposals to turn Parliament into a theme park, including the idea of charging people £2,000 to use the Terrace, £20,000 to use Westminster Hall, and now £15 to go up the Clock Tower. I believe that we Members should resist that. We should stand by the principle that this is a place that our constituents pay for; it belongs to them and it should be free for them to visit.

I will not support the amendment, because I believe that more can be done than simply looking at the issue again. When we look to save money, we should look to our own first of all. That is why I draw the House’s attention to what I believe is the scandal of the grace and favour apartments enjoyed by people who work in this place. When the last Clerk of the House retired, there was a great opportunity to remove the grace and favour apartment attached to the job. However, we did not take the opportunity. I think that as long as we provide such facilities to people who work here, we should not charge our constituents for going up the Clock Tower.

We should definitely not charge our constituents in what is an Olympic year, as this building will be at the front and centre when people visit our country. In this Olympic year, there is great interest in finding London hotels for people to stay in. I made an inquiry of the Ritz to find out how much its most expensive suite was, and I did the same for the Dorchester and all the posh places where I could never afford to stay. These suites cost thousands of pounds—some as much as £7,000 a night. What an opportunity for we Members to make these grace and favour apartments available all day to save the taxpayer some money. Why do people choose to pay thousands of pounds to stay at the Ritz and the Dorchester? It is clearly location, location, location—and security. That is what these grace and favour apartments have—location and security.

[Thomas Docherty]

The hon. Gentleman is making a compelling argument. I wonder whether he is aware that there are some other grace and favour places down the road in No. 10, 11 and 12 Downing street. Perhaps the Patronage Secretary could make his place available to his constituents.

[Jake Berry]

But that is completely different. Government is for 365 days a year and 24/7; Parliament is having an early recess to enable Members to avoid the Olympics, so surely those who work in Parliament will not be here.

We are not talking about a Big Brother-style eviction; we are simply talking about the possibility of those with grace and favour apartments, including the Chairman of the Commission, the Speaker of the House of Commons, giving them up for the period of the Olympics. Speaker’s House would, of course, command the biggest premium. I suggest that we could charge £20,000 a night for it, perhaps more, and that simply making it available during the Olympics could save half a million pounds.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I think we are in danger of losing out on the Clock Tower by discussing the renting of the Speaker’s apartments. We are getting a little wide of the mark.

[Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend think that the price would be enhanced if the Deputy Speakers were present to attend the visitors?

[Jake Berry]

Well, I cannot speak for—

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I assure that the House that that would not be the case.

[Jake Berry]

All joking aside, it is true that we must save money, but I suspect that charging our constituents to go up the Clock Tower is in the easy pile. When we start talking about the things that are in the difficult pile—such as Speaker’s House, the grace and favour apartments of the Clerk and the Serjeant at Arms, and the crèche—we do not hear so many voices.

It is important for us to establish what we are here for. I think that we are here to speak up for our constituents, and to ensure that they continue to have free access to this building that they lease to us for five years at a time. If we want to save money, let us look at ourselves. Let us look in the difficult pile. Let us work out where the money can be saved without our charging people for access to Big Ben.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jake Berry Excerpts

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vaizey]

I shall certainly write to the hon. Lady. I was going to add that I am sure she will wish to join me in welcoming the settlement between S4C and the BBC, as 100% of the programming budget will go to independent companies such as Tinopolis.

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

When young people do manage to get a job, if they choose to listen to the radio in their workplace they may be subjected to hounding by PPL. That company is repeatedly phoning a constituent of mine to demand money for a radio licence when he is working at home in his garage. Will the Minister meet me to discuss this case and the behaviour of the company more generally?

[Mr Vaizey]

There was an identical case in my constituency, and the misunderstanding was cleared up rapidly and amicably.

Business of the House

Jake Berry Excerpts

Thursday 15th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concern. One of the Vickers report’s recommendations is that it should be much easier to switch accounts from one bank to another. I therefore hope that if a bank raises its charges, it will be easier for people to transfer their custom to a bank that offers a more competitive service.

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

Will the Leader of the House grant a debate on the independence of British newspapers? Yesterday while perusing his copy of the Morning Star, he may have read, beneath the headline “Could You Be Any More Wet”, the TUC’s reaction to the Leader of the Opposition described as “heckling, derisive laughter” and “deflation”. Given that dramatic about-turn, may we have a debate on that, too?

[Sir George Young]

I am afraid that I did not read yesterday’s Morning Star, but I am grateful to my hon. Friend for providing me with an abbreviated edition. The ownership of newspapers was the peg on which he hung his question, and that is a matter for the Leveson inquiry.