Proceedings during the Pandemic and Hybrid Scrutiny Proceedings

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Tuesday 21st April 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg)]

I beg to move,

That this House is committed to taking all steps necessary to balance its responsibilities for continuing scrutiny of the executive, legislating and representation of the interests of constituents with adherence to the guidance issued by Public Health England and the restrictions placed upon all citizens of the United Kingdom, and is further committed, in pursuit of that aim, to allowing virtual participation in the House’s proceedings, to extending the digital capacity of those proceedings to ensure the participation of all Members, and to ensuring that its rules and procedures are adapted to permit as far as possible parity of treatment between Members participating virtually and Members participating in person.

[Mr Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following motion:

That the following orders be made and have effect until 12 May:

A. Scrutiny proceedings

1) The House shall meet at 2.30 pm on Mondays, and at 11.30 am on Tuesdays and Wednesdays and will first proceed with questions and statements under the orders [Hybrid scrutiny proceedings] of today.

2) Scrutiny proceedings shall conclude not later than two hours after their commencement, save that the Speaker shall have discretion to extend the proceedings for a short additional period if it seems to him appropriate to do so.

3) Following the conclusion of scrutiny proceedings, the House shall proceed with business set down to be taken at the commencement of public business and then with the main business.

4) Scrutiny proceedings comprise

a) questions to ministers;

b) urgent questions;

c) ministerial statements.

5) No question of which notice has been given under SO No. 22(5) shall be taken more than one hour after the House sits, and scrutiny proceedings shall otherwise be taken in the order determined by the Speaker who shall announce that order not later than the start of the sitting to which it relates.

6) Members may participate in scrutiny proceedings virtually, by electronic means approved by the Speaker, or by attending in the Chamber. The Speaker may limit the number of Members present in the Chamber at any one time.

7) For the purposes of proceedings under this order, Members shall give notice by electronic means designated by the Speaker.

8) Notice periods in respect of all scrutiny proceedings shall be set by the Speaker, provided that the latest date and time specified by the Speaker for questions to ministers shall be such as to enable notices to be circulated at least two days (excluding Friday, Saturday and Sunday) before the question is to be answered.

B. Urgent questions

1) In respect of any day to which order (A. Scrutiny proceedings) applies, a Member may apply to the Speaker for leave to ask an urgent question under this order.

2) An urgent question is one which, in the Speaker’s opinion, is of an urgent character and relates to a matter of public importance.

C. Supplementary provisions

1) No unopposed business, save motions for unopposed returns of which notice has been given, may be taken at the commencement of scrutiny proceedings.

2) Notices of private business may be set down to be taken at the commencement of public business after scrutiny proceedings, but, if opposed, shall not be proceeded with but shall be deferred to such time, other than a Friday, as the Chairman of Ways and Means shall appoint.

3) Standing Order Nos. 7, 8, and 21 shall not have effect and the Speaker shall be required under paragraph (5) of Standing Order No 22 to take account of the party balance while these orders are in force.

4) In any case where the Speaker has ordered the withdrawal of a Member, or of several Members, under Standing Order No 43 and is required to direct the Serjeant at Arms to give effect to the order, the Member or Members shall be suspended from the service of the House for the following sitting day.

5) No motion to sit in private may be made during scrutiny proceedings.

6) The Speaker may amend any provision of these orders, if he determines it is necessary to do so in order to ensure that the conduct of business is consistent with the Resolution of the House (Proceedings during the pandemic) of 21 April.

7) Before exercising his power under paragraph (6), the Speaker shall satisfy himself that he has the agreement of the Leader of the House.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I rise to speak to the motion on proceedings during the pandemic and, as you have explained, Mr Speaker, I will also speak to the motion on hybrid scrutiny proceedings.

Mr Speaker, may I start by thanking you and the House staff for the incredible work that has taken place during the Easter recess to allow me to move these motions today? It is worth noting that our Clerks and staff often work very long hours when the House is sitting and expect to be compensated for that in recess periods. On this occasion, we have asked them to work during the recess period too, placing a double burden upon them. I am also grateful to you, Mr Speaker, for allowing these motions to be moved without formal notice, and to House staff for arranging the publication yesterday of these motions and the accompanying explanatory note.

From tomorrow, if the House agrees these motions, we will resume oral questions, statements and urgent questions virtually. While the new digital Parliament may not be perfect—Members may launch forth into fine perorations only to be muted or snatched away altogether by an intermittent internet connection—we must not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. The parliamentary authorities have done a superb job to get this up and running at short notice. Should the House agree these motions today, I would expect to bring forward further motions shortly so that we can extend our virtual ways of working for a longer period and to more substantive business, including legislation.

Before turning to the motions, I want to set out my gratitude to the Procedure Committee for its rapid work. These are difficult and challenging times, and these necessary changes are happening at a pace that would not be ideal in more normal times. The Procedure Committee has an essential role in advising this House on reform. I am grateful to the Committee and to its Chairman, my right hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), for its report published today, and I commit to continuing to work closely with it. We will all want to keep under review how the procedures work. I know that the Committee has particular concerns about moving to electronic voting, and I would certainly want to work closely with the Committee on the options for that. I hope it will reassure the Committee if I say that, once we have moved to considering substantive business as well, I will be looking to make certain that we initially schedule business that is unlikely to be divided on.

[Mr William Wragg (Hazel Grove) (Con)]

I am extremely grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way at this early stage. Could he confirm that it is his intention tomorrow to bring forward a motion on remote voting?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I think we must wait till tomorrow for tomorrow’s business, but I do expect further motions to be brought forward on how this House will operate and move forward to substantive business. Those motions will be laid in the normal way before the rise of the House, so that we do not have to have the extraordinary situation of bringing forward motions without notice, but there will be further motions.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

I obviously understand the extreme circumstances under which we are working, and I commend the Government and the Officers of the House for what they have done. In his comments, the Leader of the House has indicated that nothing controversial that would lead to a vote will be brought before the House. In those circumstances, is he guaranteeing that nothing to do with the extending of abortion in Northern Ireland will be brought to the House during this crisis period?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I was referring to the period of next week, when we expect the business to be business that will be agreed without a Division. We are looking to having remote voting, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (Mr Wragg) mentioned, and motions will come forward—or have to come forward—to cover that. The point at which that is in place will be the point at which controversial business will be taken that is unlikely to go through without a Division. We are not looking to Divisions next week.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Leader of the House for giving way and for giving us a chance to ask a question. He will know that on every occasion we have considered any controversial issues to do with abortion, Ministers and right hon. and hon. Members from all the different parties in the Chamber have said that on no occasion would any decisions be made on abortion when the Northern Ireland Assembly was working. I am conscious that the Northern Ireland Assembly is up and working, and it is working well.

Is it not important that no such legislative change should be brought to this House when the Northern Ireland Assembly could make the decision? I need an assurance on the record from the Leader of the House that under no circumstances will any Member of this House be disenfranchised and prevented from voting against abortion. There are many people not just in my party but in other parties across the House who are opposed to the change on abortion, and certainly opposed to any change that affects Northern Ireland when we have a working Assembly to take those decisions.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

Votes on abortion have always been free votes. It would be astonishing if that were to change, and I would not be in favour of that. Such motions come from an Act of Parliament passed by this House last year and the Government must follow the law of the land. However, I give the assurance—I will announce next week’s business in the business statement—that next week we will bring forward business on which it is not expected there will be Divisions, because it is business that has been broadly agreed on.

I ought to turn now to the motions, and I am grateful to the House of Commons Commission and other parties for agreement to these measures. It may help the House if I briefly set out the approach taken; I draw attention to the detailed explanatory memorandum published for the convenience of Members.

The first motion commits the House to taking all steps necessary to balance its responsibility for continuing scrutiny of the Executive, legislating and representing the interests of constituents with adherence to the guidance issued by Public Health England and the restrictions placed upon all citizens of the United Kingdom. On today of all days—the 94th anniversary of the birth of Her Majesty—I feel that I should refer not to citizens of the United Kingdom but to subjects of our gracious sovereign and take the opportunity, in the absence of gun salutes, to wish Her Majesty very many happy returns of the day. We must, as her subjects, be an exemplar in the processes that we adopt to allow virtual working, and that is underpinned by the motion.

As the explanatory memorandum sets out, the main motion provides for the first two hours of each sitting on Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays to be devoted to scrutiny proceedings, defined as questions to Ministers, urgent questions and ministerial statements, during which it will be possible for Members to participate electronically in a form approved by you, Mr Speaker. The motion also enables the Speaker to restrict the number of Members physically present in the Chamber and to ensure that social distancing requirements are met. As I look around the Chamber today, I see that we have succeeded in doing that.

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

I join the Leader of the House in thanking everyone who has worked so hard to bring forward these arrangements. I would like to raise the subject of Adjournment debates. I declare an interest, because Mr Speaker has been kind enough to give me an Adjournment debate on the Order Paper for this week. Adjournment debates tend to be rather sparsely attended at the best of times, so I urge my right hon. Friend and the House of Commons Commission to find a way as quickly as possible for us to have Adjournment debates so that we Back Benchers can represent our constituents.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

If I may, I will answer the question in two ways. We are looking to expand the digital offering so that we can carry out more business, hence legislation next week. It depends on for how long this situation goes on. The other part of the answer is that, for Members who cannot come to the Chamber and so that no Member is disadvantaged, what we are not doing virtually we will not do at all—beyond today and some motions that may have to be laid tomorrow. I was coming on to make that point, but it is only right that everything we do should be available to all Members in a virtual format as well as to the small numbers who will want to attend in person. In that process, I am sorry to say, Adjournment debates will be at the end rather than at the beginning, because we need scrutiny and legislation to be further up the list.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

For the past few weeks, hundreds, if not thousands, of workers around my constituency, in paint factories and in manufacturing, have had to continue to go to work despite not being able to maintain the 6 feet or 2 metre distance while doing their jobs. They have been told repeatedly that that is in line with the guidance, and that the guidance is clear that that rule should be followed where possible. If we cannot do our jobs properly—Members are to be limited in their contributions and unable to ask supplementary questions in the usual way—will we be applying the same rules in this House as have been applied to those working in paint and kitchen factories in my constituency, who have to go to work regardless of the social distancing advice?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The same rules apply to us as they do to everyone else. That is the whole point of what we are trying to do—facilitating working remotely but trying to ensure social distancing in this House.

As we began prayers and Mr Speaker walked in front of me, about a foot away, I noticed that someone said, “That’s not social distancing.” There will be occasions, even in this House, when social distancing is not kept to absolutely perfectly but is in the spirit of the rules—as long as we are making our best effort to ensure social distancing, hence the tape that has been put on the floor and the novel style of prayer card on the Benches to ensure that we are in the right places. That is completely in line with the guidance given to the rest of the country.

We have a twofold duty of leadership as Members of this House: one is to show that we are following the rules that apply to everyone else; and the other is to lead by example in showing that we are getting on with our essential work. With the proposals brought forward, we do both.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

On the subject of leading by example on the rules that we have imposed on everyone else, I point out to the Leader of the House that we have never debated those rules. Those rules were implemented under legislation passed—presciently, as far as Orwell was concerned—in 1984, and we have never debated and explored them. Is that itself not shocking?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

We had an opportunity to debate the emergency legislation. What we are doing today is ensuring the opportunity for debate, discussion and the Government’s being held to account. I am providing for my right hon. Friend what he is asking for before he even asked for it. I do not claim the capability of second sight and of knowing what he was going to ask for, but I am delighted that, thanks to your good offices, Mr Speaker, we are delivering for my right hon. Friend.

As I was saying, the motion will enable the Speaker to restrict the number of Members physically present in the Chamber to ensure that social distancing is met, and the motion will remain in force until 12 May. It is likely that arrangements may be modified following the motion tomorrow on a wider set of proceedings. These arrangements are temporary—that is part of the point—and for while the crisis lasts.

I have specific points on which I wish to provide reassurance. Paragraph 3 of section A of the motion reads:

“Following the conclusion of scrutiny proceedings, the House shall proceed with business set down to be taken at the commencement of public business and then with the main business.”

I alluded to this earlier: I wish to make it clear that such provision allows us to bring forward further motions this week that are procedural and necessary, including a motion to allow for substantive business. It is not the Government’s current intention to meet physically to debate legislation or other substantive matters; rather, we intend to wait until the House has agreed a way in which that business may be debated remotely.

Turning to section C, paragraphs 6 and 7, the motion gives the Speaker the power to vary the orders, having agreed that with the Leader of the House, which is me. That might seem a sweeping power, but it is entirely to ensure that Mr Speaker can react to any teething problems with the new procedures, so I hope that Members will consider it a sensible inclusion. It is not so that you and I, Mr Speaker, can set up some form of railroading of parliamentary procedures, and it has to be within the requirements of the motion agreed.

To conclude, Parliament has always evolved to make sure that it can work efficiently. Parliamentary procedure is not an end in itself but a means to allow the institution to function successfully. Any changes now will be temporary, for the period of the lockdown, because like many things, the Chamber works best when Members can meet in person. I hope the whole House can support these motions, so that the House can undertake its essential scrutiny, and we can then move to considering other vital business, including legislation.

[Sir Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con)]

The Leader of the House rightly says that these measures are only temporary, which I think we all welcome. Does he agree that the real spirit of this has to be that, as the restrictions on the country are lifted over the coming weeks, we should respond in kind, moving at least in step with the increasing freedom of citizens to go about their business and showing leadership in that respect too?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

As a general rule, it is wise to agree with the chairman of the 1922 Committee, and I am happy to say that on this occasion, I do agree with my hon. Friend. As the rest of the country sees its ability to do more become apparent, so we must go along with that. He kindly leads me perfectly to the point at which I want to end.

What we do in this House is not something that it is nice to do—a frippery or a bauble on the British constitution. It is the British constitution. It is the essence of how our governmental and constitutional system works. The ability to hold the Government to account, to seek redress of grievance and to take up those matters brought to us by our constituents so that they may be put right are best done when this House sits. In 1349, when the black death affected this country, Parliament could not and did not sit; the Session was cancelled. Thanks to modern technology, even I have moved on from 1349, and I am glad to say that we can sit to carry out these fundamental constitutional functions. I am enormously grateful to many who are just as traditionalist as I am but who have accepted these constraints. Mr Speaker, I sometimes think that you compete with me to be a traditionalist, but you have been at the forefront of getting this to happen, because Parliament—the House of Commons—is essential to how we are governed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

With the leave of the House, I shall try to respond to some of the points that were made in the debate.

The shadow Leader of the House asked whether the time limit can be expanded. We are currently working with what we think is the maximum that can be done with the technology, but the hope is very much that it can be expanded. You responded to the point on secure voting, Mr Speaker; any remote voting must be secure. We do not want people other than Members to be voting.

[Chris Elmore]

I agree with the Leader of the House that voting obviously needs to be secure, but can he provide some reassurance that when testing for voting is carried out, there is enough capacity to allow all 650 Members to vote remotely? My understanding is that the testing yesterday did not go terribly well—that is how it was described to me.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that any system needs to work, to be robust and to ensure that votes are properly registered. On points of order, as raised by both the right hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) and the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith), I believe those can be sent to you, Mr Speaker, in written form, so it is not as if there will not be any ability to raise points; it simply will not be possible to interrupt a television screen, because that would not actually work.

I reiterate my thanks to my right hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), Chairman of the Procedure Committee. Like her, I think all MPs have seen an enormous explosion in casework, and therefore the ability to hold Ministers to account and to get answers for one’s constituents is very important. My right hon. Friend, like other Members, including my right hon. Friends the Members for North Somerset (Dr Fox) and for Chipping Barnet (Theresa Villiers), the right hon. Member for Warley (John Spellar) and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), emphasised the importance of this situation being temporary. I would not have put my name to these motions if it were not going to be temporary. I want Parliament to be back operating properly in its normal way.

However, as the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) pointed out, this is actually about people dying, and what we are doing is part of trying to save lives, along with the rest of the country. Yes, it is second best, and yes, it is imperfect that we should meet with these screens and with the Chamber losing its normal decoration, but we are doing our best in difficult circumstances to maintain as much as we can. The motion has effect until 12 May, and although it may have to be renewed at that point, it is temporary and will remain temporary.

I agree with the right hon. Friend the Member for Warley that this is much better than press conferences. Holding the Government to account makes for better government. This may not be a common view expressed at the Dispatch Box, but it was not that long ago that I was a Back Bencher, and Back Benchers see week in, week out, year in, year out, better decisions taken because the Government are held to account. Wise Governments—I inevitably think that this Government are wise—actually have the sense to recognise that.

My right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) made the extraordinarily important, fundamental constitutional point that a Member who wishes to represent his or her constituents must be able to do so, and that is part of what we are trying to do. How that is managed, with a maximum of 50 Members in the Chamber, is a matter for Mr Speaker, but the purpose of that is to maintain safe social distancing. However, if a Member needs to get in and is on the list to be called to speak, if I am in the Chamber, I will leave to make way for that Member to come in and speak. I will go and watch it in my room on the television if I am answering the debate, so that the Member may come in and make the point.

We will have to work with each other to maintain our ancient constitutional rights. I should point out, Mr Speaker—you know it is one of my favourite points—that we have all had a right of uninterrupted, unhindered access to Parliament since 1340. It is one of our most ancient and precious rights. I assure my right hon. Friend that I would not want to be Leader of the House when that right is taken away, but it may operate differently, to ensure that it works with safeguarding.

I am grateful for the widespread support for these motions. We are all trying to do our best in difficult circumstances, which I think the House appreciates. I am very grateful, I ought to add, to the Opposition Chief Whip, who has worked closely with the Government Chief Whip and, indeed, representatives of the SNP to ensure that these proposals could be agreed.

Question put and agreed to.

Ordered,

That this House is committed to taking all steps necessary to balance its responsibilities for continuing scrutiny of the executive, legislating and representation of the interests of constituents with adherence to the guidance issued by Public Health England and the restrictions placed upon all citizens of the United Kingdom, and is further committed, in pursuit of that aim, to allowing virtual participation in the House’s proceedings, to extending the digital capacity of those proceedings to ensure the participation of all Members, and to ensuring that its rules and procedures are adapted to permit as far as possible parity of treatment between Members participating virtually and Members participating in person.

Hybrid Scrutiny Proceedings

Ordered,

That the following orders be made and have effect until 12 May:

A. Scrutiny proceedings

1) The House shall meet at 2.30 pm on Mondays, and at 11.30 am on Tuesdays and Wednesdays and will first proceed with questions and statements under the orders [Hybrid scrutiny proceedings] of today.

2) Scrutiny proceedings shall conclude not later than two hours after their commencement, save that the Speaker shall have discretion to extend the proceedings for a short additional period if it seems to him appropriate to do so.

3) Following the conclusion of scrutiny proceedings, the House shall proceed with business set down to be taken at the commencement of public business and then with the main business.

4) Scrutiny proceedings comprise

a) questions to ministers;

b) urgent questions;

c) ministerial statements.

5) No question of which notice has been given under SO No. 22(5) shall be taken more than one hour after the House sits, and scrutiny proceedings shall otherwise be taken in the order determined by the Speaker who shall announce that order not later than the start of the sitting to which it relates.

6) Members may participate in scrutiny proceedings virtually, by electronic means approved by the Speaker, or by attending in the Chamber. The Speaker may limit the number of Members present in the Chamber at any one time.

7) For the purposes of proceedings under this order, Members shall give notice by electronic means designated by the Speaker.

8) Notice periods in respect of all scrutiny proceedings shall be set by the Speaker, provided that the latest date and time specified by the Speaker for questions to ministers shall be such as to enable notices to be circulated at least two days (excluding Friday, Saturday and Sunday) before the question is to be answered.

B. Urgent questions

1) In respect of any day to which order (A. Scrutiny proceedings) applies, a Member may apply to the Speaker for leave to ask an urgent question under this order.

2) An urgent question is one which, in the Speaker’s opinion, is of an urgent character and relates to a matter of public importance.

C. Supplementary provisions

1) No unopposed business, save motions for unopposed returns of which notice has been given, may be taken at the commencement of scrutiny proceedings.

2) Notices of private business may be set down to be taken at the commencement of public business after scrutiny proceedings, but, if opposed, shall not be proceeded with but shall be deferred to such time, other than a Friday, as the Chairman of Ways and Means shall appoint.

3) Standing Order Nos. 7, 8, and 21 shall not have effect and the Speaker shall be required under paragraph (5) of Standing Order No 22 to take account of the party balance while these orders are in force.

4) In any case where the Speaker has ordered the withdrawal of a Member, or of several Members, under Standing Order No 43 and is required to direct the Serjeant at Arms to give effect to the order, the Member or Members shall be suspended from the service of the House for the following sitting day.

5) No motion to sit in private may be made during scrutiny proceedings.

6) The Speaker may amend any provision of these orders, if he determines it is necessary to do so in order to ensure that the conduct of business is consistent with the Resolution of the House (Proceedings during the pandemic) of 21 April.

7) Before exercising his power under paragraph (6), the Speaker shall satisfy himself that he has the agreement of the Leader of the House.—(Mr Rees-Mogg.)

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the House for the manner in which it has conducted this debate, to all those who have worked so hard to establish the arrangements, which will apply from tomorrow, and to the Procedure Committee for its high-speed report. Guidance for Members on the arrangements is now available online, and in hard copy from the Vote Office. I should also alert Members that the deadline for urgent questions to be taken on Tuesdays and Wednesdays will be 1 pm, not 2 pm as stated in the explanatory memorandum.

I have received a letter from the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), resigning as Chair of the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee. I have also received a letter from the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) announcing her intention to resign as Chair of the Committee on Standards when her successor has been elected. I wish to pay tribute to the commitment and dedication with which both of them have chaired their respective Committees both in the present Parliament and in the last. I will make an announcement about the arrangements for elections tomorrow.

I understand that the ten-minute rule motion will not be moved.