Oral Answers to Questions
Ian Paisley Excerpts(10 years, 4 months ago)
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Mrs Villiers
Both the UK and Irish Governments will continue to support the efforts of party leaders to reach a conclusion on the Haass issues. Like the hon. Gentleman, I urge everyone, as we approach the height of the parading season, to comply with the rule of law to ensure that all protests and all parades are both peaceful and lawful, and that the Parades Commission’s determinations are complied with.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
Does the Secretary of State agree that getting Sinn Fein to tell the truth about the past is like hoping that Nick Clegg will be the Deputy Prime Minister after the 2015 election? Does she agree that the best way to deal with the past at this precise time is for her Government to annul the letters to the on-the-runs?
Mrs Villiers
As I have said many times in relation to those letters, they did not confer an amnesty; they were merely a statement of fact about an individual’s status with regard to the police and prosecuting authorities at a particular point in time, and that was confirmed by the Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland in the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee yesterday.
High Court Judgment (John Downey)
Ian Paisley Excerpts(10 years, 7 months ago)
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David Simpson
The hon. Lady is absolutely right.
No unionist would be surprised by the role the Northern Ireland Office at the time had in the design and implementation of the scheme. At the time, its pandering to republicanism and its contempt for Unionism and its representatives were a permanent feature of direct rule. However, it drew the Police Service of Northern Ireland into its dirty deals as well. In a question to the assistant chief constable—I believe it was Assistant Chief Constable Harris—my colleague on the Policing Board, Mr Thomas Buchanan, asked about the OTRs. The PSNI’s response was this:
“At this moment in time, there are no on the runs we are aware of residing in Northern Ireland, and if there was information to suggest there were individuals who are wanted for crime living within this jurisdiction, then we would be very anxious to learn of that.”
That was in 2010. That gave the impression that there was a desire to catch criminals, but the scheme was doing exactly the opposite.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
My hon. Friend knows that the former deputy chair of the Policing Board, Mr Bradley, has publicly stated that the board was briefed about the on-the-runs and knew all about it. Will my hon. Friend go further today and dismiss that as a fantasy?
David Simpson
Yes, I certainly will. It was an absolute fantasy, as the evidence that has come from Policing Board representatives over the past few weeks confirms.
At the same time the OTR scheme was running, the PSNI established the Historical Enquiries Team. It was supposed to be a systematic approach to give every victim the opportunity for justice. The OTR scheme now draws a long shadow over all the HET’s work. Some will conclude that as one section of the PSNI tried to put people before a court, another was helping them to avoid it.
I will not speak for long, because I know that many other Members wish to speak.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
It is very kind of you, Madam Deputy Speaker, to call me in this very important Back-Bench debate. I am happy to put on the record my thanks to the Backbench Business Committee for allocating such an extensive period for it. I am very grateful to right hon. and hon. Members who have taken interventions throughout the debate. I will try to contain my comments to less than 10 minutes, so that those who have been so generous to me have an opportunity to speak at length.
Ian Paisley
Given that the hon. Lady is an esteemed and very skilled legal expert, will she refer to the possible opportunities that now pertain to try to get someone such as Mr Downey with his experience—an alleged mass murderer—back into our courts, whether by warrant, extradition or whatever?
Lady Hermon
I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for intervening so early. That is a really interesting question. My honest and frank answer, as he would expect from the hon. Member for North Down, is that Mr Downey of course resides in Donegal. That is his place of residence and his domicile. Frankly, after the Downey case and its revelations, I have absolutely no confidence that this British Government would request the extradition of Mr Downey. I would love the Secretary of State to intervene now to say that I am completely wrong.
Oral Answers to Questions
Ian Paisley Excerpts(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Mrs Villiers
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) met the Disabled Police Officers Association of Northern Ireland, and I would like to associate myself with the shadow Secretary of State’s comments to the effect that we owe them a huge debt of gratitude. The representations made at that meeting will, of course, be taken up with the Northern Ireland Executive. My understanding is that decisions on these matters lie primarily within the devolved field.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
3. What assessment she has made of the potential effect in Northern Ireland of the Government’s proposed further reductions in welfare expenditure.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
7. What recent assessment she has made of the effect of the Government's welfare reform policies on Northern Ireland.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Andrew Robathan)
We have worked hard with the Executive to adapt our reforms flexibly to the circumstances of Northern Ireland. These reforms will ensure that work always pays and will help to lift people out of poverty by moving them into work. When fully implemented, universal credit will make around 3 million low-to-middle-income households across the UK better off.
Ian Paisley
The number of people living in poverty in Northern Ireland has increased from 18% in 2002 to 22% in 2013. In reality, that means that one in four people in Ulster earns and lives on a salary that falls below the basic standard of living. Will the Minister take the opportunity to give us an assurance that the cuts—the deeper and further cuts—talked about by the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not force more people into poverty in Northern Ireland?
Mr Robathan
I am not in a position to know what further cuts to the welfare budget the Chancellor may be planning. Northern Ireland receives more than a quarter more in Government spending per head in comparison with constituencies such as mine in England and, indeed, all English constituencies. It is a fact that Nelson McCausland specifically said that more people will be lifted out of poverty by universal credit, including some 10,000 children. I am sure the hon. Gentleman would welcome that. We are not immune to understanding people’s concerns, but we believe that it is work, not welfare, that will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland.
Haass Talks
Ian Paisley Excerpts(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Mrs Villiers
If any deal is to work, it is important that it commands a broad consensus. If we are to reach an agreement, some difficult decisions may be needed to get the compromises that are necessary. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that as well as working on the Haass issues, important though they are, it is crucial that efforts continue to be made to improve education in Northern Ireland, to boost the economy and to deal with all the other challenges with which the Northern Ireland Executive continue to grapple.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
I, too, would like to be associated with the tributes that have echoed from both sides of the House to our dear friend Paul Goggins. When I was a Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive, he was a particular and specialist help and a source of encouragement. When I had the honour of becoming a Member of this place in 2010, he continued to be not only a friend but, as I saw in the many Committees on which I served with him, an expert on matters of security. His expertise was a particular help. This House will be the poorer for his passing, but his Father’s house of many mansions will be the richer for his presence.
May I also say, Mr Speaker, that I think your tribute to him was touching? You described him as a man who was Labour to the core, but the least tribal of Members. I think that that captured the man and the moment, and we are richer for that.
Turning to the Haass talks, I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson). You will appreciate, Mr Speaker, that I am known for speaking my mind and for calling a spade a shovel. I believe that my party was right to say no to the final text, and it will remain right to say no until it gets to a point when it is able to say yes to something that we can recommend to our community. I believe that we did the right thing, and we will continue to do the right thing when it comes to saying no at the right time and saying yes when it is appropriate to do so.
The Secretary of State said that it was disappointing that it had not proved possible to reach an agreement on an historical investigations unit to take the place of the HET. Why would she try to fund such a unit, with its panoply of lawyers and additional experts, when there is a shortfall of £60 million, starting in 2015, for the current arrangement, which is the cheaper option, and when there is an additional shortfall of £36 million for security? Will she commit now to finding the money to allow the police to function for the next five years, rather than pursuing this fanciful idea of an historical investigations unit?
Mrs Villiers
It is important that the parties continue to work to find an agreed position on all these issues. I welcome the statement from the First Minister that he feels able to support substantial parts of the Haass proposals. The hon. Gentleman is right to raise the issue of costs, which would need to be resolved in the event of an agreement. As I have said, the UK Government would expect the Northern Ireland Executive to fund that primarily from within the considerable resources provided by the block grant. We will obviously consider any application for top-up funding, but given that we have to deal with a deficit of such gravity, it is difficult to commit to additional funds at this stage.
Oral Answers to Questions
Ian Paisley Excerpts(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Mrs Villiers
The Attorney-General’s remarks were patently made on his own behalf rather than that of the Northern Ireland Executive or the Government, and they received almost universal criticism. The Prime Minister has made it clear that we have no plans to introduce an amnesty along the lines suggested by the Attorney-General—and yes, I acknowledge that there is a degree of contradiction between his actions and his comments in relation to inquests.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
Will the Secretary of State go a bit further and tell the House what action she is prepared to take to ensure that justice is done and seen to be done, rather than justice and the process of law being abandoned, which is what a senior law officer in Northern Ireland wants to happen?
Mrs Villiers
The Government are entirely committed to the integrity of the rule of law, and we will maintain our position. I think it important for the outcome of the Haass discussions also to abide by that principle, and to be consistent with maintaining the integrity of the rule of law.
Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Ian Paisley Excerpts(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Mark Durkan
The right hon. Gentleman makes a point that gives rise to questions about what other support should be available as a way of assuring people when they are co-operating with inquiries. Perhaps that would also encourage more people to co-operate in future, given that we have experience of times past when some did not, and we now have a signal that fewer would in future.
New clause 3 provides for whatever work goes on in the future in relation to the past; it is not prescribing what work should go on. It states that, whatever different channels are used to review and report on the past, it would be right and proper for this House, year on year, to receive an annual report that reflects the work that has gone on and for that report to be accompanied by a statement by the Secretary of State that refers to whether there is independent legal advice to show that all that work is compliant with article 2 of the European convention on human rights and addresses other salient matters.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
While I understand the merit of what the hon. Gentleman is proposing, is there not a huge danger of such a process creating a free-for-all for lawyers, with ultimately only lawyers benefiting from it?
Mark Durkan
No, there would be no free-for-all for lawyers in my proposal, because it would not add any new form of investigation relating to the past. The new clause basically says that whatever different strands are dealing with complaints about the past, whether it be the Independent Commission for the Location of Victims Remains, the HET or any successor body, the police ombudsman, or any other inquiries or panels—and whatever their work is—this House would receive an annual report showing what had been done in that year. It would also address article 2 compliance, because that is a serious issue that has arisen in relation to the HET, and other matters.
One issue the annual report could address is whether the reports of that year show new findings and put new light on events that were previously the subject of very different accounts in Parliament. We know that Ministers reported very differently to Parliament about a lot of these events, compared with the evidence now available from HET reports and Government papers that have emerged from the archives, thanks to the work of the Pat Finucane Centre and others. The annual report, with the statement from the Secretary of State, could be a parliamentary point of record for any apologies that have been issued by anybody in Government, and not only the British Government. Any apology by any public body or any Government in respect of findings or reports would be recorded, rather than being left as though it is just a matter of private correspondence between a victim’s family and a Government Department, which is the Government’s current position. The Government say that if they issue an apology on the back of something in an HET report or anything else, they do not see it as being up to them to record it or to acknowledge it in Parliament in any way. If the Government are iffy about doing that in every single instance, an annual report that reflected on work on the past and responses to it would provide a way for them to do it.
It would be very important for this House, as its encouragement to the parties in the Haass talks, to say, “Yes, we know that on the issue of the past there is a huge responsibility on the parties to come to an agreement and an understanding on how better to deal with it. More honestly addressing the serious events of Northern Ireland’s past is not the job of the Northern Ireland parties alone; there is a serious and particular role for the British Government and for this House, which held Northern Ireland under direct rule for so many years and heard so many accounts and versions of events that may now have to be addressed differently in the light of what reports find.”
Ian Paisley
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his generosity in giving way so often. He will be aware of the phrase, “Victors write history.” Is he not in danger of handing the historiography of the troubles to a group that he would not even agree with?
Mark Durkan
No. The new clause is aimed precisely at preventing that. In the absence of anything wider, people are getting away with their own gable wall histories. They are getting away with their own pretences about the nefarious character of violence during the troubles being attached to one side and not the other. Equally, we still sometimes get the nonsense from some spokes- persons within sections of Unionism that the loyalist campaign existed only as a response to republican violence, and that it needs to be understood in that context. As far as I am concerned, all the violence was wrong. None of it could be justified, and none of it could be justified by the violence or excesses of anybody else. What the IRA did, did not justify what the loyalists did. What the loyalists or security forces did, did not justify what the IRA did either.
It is important that we are able to bring those sorts of narratives out. If reports are available from the various mechanisms to deal with the past, they should be sourced and reported on in the way I talked about—on a class basis, which can straddle a number of years and localities, as under new clause 1—or through future annual reports to this House. Such reports would provide an assurance that the past is being dealt with by due standards and is receiving a due response from those in Government and in other public bodies who should be responding to it. I make no pretence to claim that either of the new clauses would directly burden paramilitary organisations with compliance with giving evidence or the truth. However, the new clauses would be a lot better at addressing the truth and being open to all dimensions of Northern Ireland’s difficult past than some other partial proposals.
I remind hon. Members that back in 2005, this House saw what was probably the worst piece of proposed legislation: the Northern Ireland (Offences) Bill. It attempted to set up an entirely secret tribunal whereby people could go in, unbeknownst to the relevant victims, and claim complete indemnity and immunity from anything in the past. Not only would the issuing of certificates have been secret; the then Government proposed a clause through which an added seal of secrecy could have been imposed by the Secretary of State. The only person who could have gone to prison in connection with any crime committed in the past would have been a relative or a reporter who reported or alleged that somebody had benefited from a certificate relating to their particular victimisation. Potentially, only the victims, or people who were reporting in sympathy with the victims, could have ended up in jail—not anybody else.
I do not pretend that the two new clauses are perfect, and nor are they complete. I do not want to pre-empt what might come out of the Haass process, but they are offered as honest contributions, recognising that more could be done with what is already being done in relation to the past. Whatever happens with Haass, this House has a continuing responsibility to address the past and to acknowledge its responsibilities during that past.
Dr McCrea
I accept that many of the atrocities carried out by members of the IRA are not in the files, but there are files on McGuinness and Adams, and it is about time they were brought out, if we are to have this openness we talk about.
The apologies, too, are selective. We have had apologies in the House, but they have been selective. Where was the Government’s apology to the people of Teebane? People might say, “Well, the Government didn’t let it happen”, but yes they did. Successive Governments of this United Kingdom allowed the Provisional IRA to carry out its atrocities. They could have stopped it on many occasions, but what did they do? They wined and dined its members and took them into the places of power, instead of bringing them to justice. If we are to have apologies, therefore, I do not want selective apologies; I want apologies to the families of La Mon, Teebane, Castlederg. I represented that constituency when those people were killed, and I would take Members to visit a little graveyard outside the town of Castlederg— 30 mph speed limit—because proportionally more members of the security forces lie there than in any other part of this United Kingdom. But who really cares? They were just members of the RUC and UDR along the border. They were just ordinary families.
Ian Paisley
Does my hon. Friend agree that we have a pup’s chance of getting an apology from the Provisional IRA? The MLA for Belfast North, Mr Gerry Kelly, shot a man in the face when escaping from Her Majesty’s prison Maze, but not only does he deny it, he has now authored a book in which he makes no apology and shows no shame for organising an escape from the prison. What are the chances of ever getting an apology from that type of scurrilous individual?
Dr McCrea
One thing about that man from north Belfast: he knows who shot that prison officer and so he should be making a revelation.
I heard more about the Glenanne gang, but let us be quite clear. If we are going to have the record of the troubled past and if we want to appoint a person to prepare an analysis of the findings, issues, patterns and lessons from previous reports, there are an awful lot of gangs that were around in Northern Ireland, and I can assure hon. Members that they brought a lot of grief to a lot of families and homes whose lives will never, ever be put together again. We had 30 years of terrorism— 30 years of appeasement by those in authority.
Northern Ireland
Ian Paisley Excerpts(11 years ago)
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Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I congratulate you, Madam Deputy Speaker, on achieving your position and wish you well in your job for the future.
I also congratulate the shadow Secretary of State and welcome him to his new post. He is only 14 days into the job and already finding his way in what could be a very difficult portfolio. We are a bit disappointed that the shadow Minister of State, the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound), is unable to be with us because he is away on parliamentary duties. I think he would use the phrase “erudite tones” of the debate if he were here. It is a pity that he is not, and we are obviously disappointed to miss his contribution.
I recently attended Irish Fest in Milwaukee, USA, where I highlighted the other side to the history that many of Irish descent and many of Ulster descent had learnt from the propaganda and an often slanted media view. Americans and those from mainland USA watch films like “The Devil’s Own”, which have a degree of artistic licence that I fear greatly rewrites history. These and other stories make it seem as though 302 RUC men and women—men and women with the George Cross—were not human beings with families and lives but simply moving “legitimate target” signs; or make it seem as though 30 prison officers and 763 armed forces members were simply numbers on a score sheet, not people whose spouses and children still feel the devastating loss to this day. These histories and films would glibly portray a prison break as a great lark and not take into account the lives that were destroyed by the loss of a father and husband. One of those was my constituent Mr Ferris, and other people were shot and injured as a result of that escape. Never portrayed in a film is a scene where a busy fish shop is bombed with no warning on a busy Saturday, killing one terrorist and nine people, including two children, and injuring 57 others. Nor do we see depicted the unveiling of a plaque in memory of this terrorist, yet that is the legacy that we are dealing with in Northern Ireland today, as so ably laid out by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson).
This is history. It should not be rewritten to glorify what were nothing more than acts of evil. I watched the snippets of the Shankill bombing and saw one of the bombers on the one hand apologising but, on the other hand, stating that he was proud to be unveiling a plaque in memory of his fellow murderer. That certainly stirs up the feelings of anger and loss in communities that are determined that they cannot and should not let their heartbreaking histories be displayed in a light that would dull the horrific nature of what has taken place.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
How does my hon. Friend think that people would feel if anyone in the Unionist community were to suggest that next week a commemoration was held to acknowledge and to celebrate what happened at Greysteel, when eight innocent people were slaughtered? How would he feel if we decided that there should be a band parade and a celebration? What would that say about this community, and does not it say the very same about nationalists and republicans whenever they decide to do that about the Shankill road bombing?
Jim Shannon
I thank my hon. Friend, who makes the point exactly. That would annoy me no end, as it would annoy everybody in this Chamber and everyone right across the whole of Northern Ireland. It does a disservice to every man, woman and child in Northern Ireland who has ever suffered loss on either side of the troubles. It does a disservice to those who are rehabilitated and living with injuries caused by the troubles, and to those who work hard to see the past for what it was and still try to find a way forward.
I want to make it clear that I believe there is a way forward for Northern Ireland, because I am positive and always try to be so. I would even go so far as to say that Northern Ireland is at long last on a journey forward, but it is not an easy task. There are many bumps in the road and many hurts that must not be whitewashed, and must be sensitively handled. Sometimes that happens, but a lot of the time it does not. Make no mistake: there are tensions. They are stirred up in all communities by agendas that would not seek to move forward while ever remembering the past, but that would seek to throw us into turmoil once again.
The removal of the Union flag from city hall is one such tension-stirring issue. There was no doubt about the strength of feeling in favour of retaining the flag. I asked people at Irish Fest in the United States of America how they would feel if they were asked to remove their flag at the Alamo. They would never do it, and yet the people of Belfast had it enforced on them in the name of progress. That is not progress: it is not now and it will not be so in the future. It is disrespectful. We are trying to engage with those on the ground to ensure that it does not derail the good that has been done thus far.
The Haass talks will, I hope, be positive. I would like to think that they will pave the way for another step forward, but if people continue to disrespect and alter what has gone before, that will not take us forward but leave us for ever going over the same ground. It is important that we be positive, but some in the community are not and are holding things back.
I am delighted that our party tabled this motion and it is only right and proper that we address the attempts to rewrite what really happened. Winston Churchill, whom I admire greatly and who was one of my childhood heroes, once said:
“History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it.”
The history of Northern Ireland is too fresh to undergo a rewrite and we can never defend the indefensible or justify the unjustifiable, no matter whether a tweet about a 30th anniversary is sent by a twit—I can think of other words, but I am not allowed to use them in this House—and no matter how many people gather to celebrate the lives of terrorists and murderers.
Anyone who saw the faces of those family members who gathered at Castlederg during the despicable and wretched IRA parade—I was there—would say that the history of that area is not written but etched on the lines on their faces and the breaks in their hearts. The Protestant and Roman Catholic members of the Castlederg community had no wish to see the glorification of atrocities committed there. They had no wish to listen to the words of IRA members and elected leaders, or to see them parading through their streets with blatant disrespect. They stood silently in dignified protest with photographs of their murdered loved ones.
There are 28 unsolved murders in Castlederg and only one person has been held responsible. Imagine the anger and pain that the people of Castlederg felt at the time. My cousin Kenneth Smyth, a sergeant in the Ulster Defence Regiment, was murdered along with his Roman Catholic friend on 10 December 1971. That caused real pain, real sorrow and real frustration. An elected representative tried to elevate the position of two would-be killers, and the parade disregarded totally the feelings of those who were only 100 or 150 yards away.
We can move forward and find a way to make things work in Northern Ireland, but we cannot do so when such events are perpetually thrown in the faces of victims. Those real victims—as opposed to the perpetrators—have enough daily reminders, and it is essential that they feel supported by their community, their representatives and this House.
I ask Members to send a message of support that they will stand with my party and me against the artistic licence that is too often used to lessen the impact through phrases such as “legitimate targets” and “collateral damage”. There is no such thing: there is no such thing in Castlederg, on the Shankill road or at La Mon in Castlereagh in Belfast. There is certainly no such thing in Ballydougan in Downpatrick, where four UDR boys, three of whom I knew personally, were murdered by the IRA. There are only evil people, carrying out evil deeds for a cause that even those they think they represent do not want.
Today I stand for every true victim of the troubles and say to them: even as we attempt to move forward to a functioning society, your loss has not been erased, you were not irrelevant, your family were not ignored or emotionally isolated, and you are not now—indeed, you will never be—forgotten. That is my promise and the promise of my party.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will adhere to that time. It is a pleasure to serve under your deputy speakership.
The debate has been telling and important. As many right hon. and hon. Members have said, it is being held on the 20th anniversary of the Shankill road massacre. My right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) outlined in very emotional yet diplomatic terms what happened on that day. October 1993 was an horrendous month. As the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and others have outlined, we had not only the Shankill massacre, which resulted in nine murders, but the Greysteel massacre a few days later in my constituency, which resulted in eight murders. They are to be condemned equally. Without equivocation or hesitation, we utterly and totally condemn all those murders. In fact, 28 people died in October 1993, such was the nature of the violence that year.
Ian Paisley
My hon. Friend will vividly recall that on that morning we were sitting in a meeting of party officers in a hotel in Dungannon when we got the news of the atrocity at Shankill. Many of us raced to the Shankill road and saw for ourselves the horrid vista of violence that was visited on the people of Northern Ireland. When we witness such things with our own eyes, it drives home how atrocious terrorism in Northern Ireland has been, and how grateful we should be that we can start to move on.
Mr Campbell
We all recollect exactly where we were and our reactions at that time.
I welcome the shadow Secretary of State to his new position. He indicated that he has been in place for only 14 days, and yet he is rapidly getting to grips. He understands that his position is a challenging profile. The hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson)—the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee—said that the future had to be better than the past. All hon. Members concur with that. My hon. Friends the Members for Upper Bann (David Simpson) and for South Antrim (Dr McCrea), and other colleagues, elaborated on double standards.
The hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) made a reasonably positive contribution, although I do not get what connection the Planning Bill, which was debated yesterday in the Northern Ireland Assembly, has with dealing with the past. I will leave that to one side. The hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) spoke at some length about the need to reconcile the distinctive and profound differences, which all hon. Members understand.
The hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) said that honesty was required, and I shall speak in the remaining moments I have on the theme of honesty. There is a distinction in Northern Ireland, but it is not between Unionism/loyalism and nationalism/republicanism. There is a distinct difference in how we look at the past. The vast majority of people, be they Unionists or nationalists, look at the past and see that there were those who carried out evil, heinous atrocities. There were then those in the RUC, the UDR and the Army who had to respond and try to deal with the problem that had been created by the paramilitaries. The vast majority of people on both sides know that that distinction is absolutely clear. The security forces endeavoured to contain the paramilitaries that carried out so many atrocities, whether they were republican or loyalist organisations. Unfortunately, that containment was for many years restricted by political considerations. We always knew that the decoded message was, “Do not rock the boat. We’re trying to include republicans in the political process. Please do not rock the boat.”
Oral Answers to Questions
Ian Paisley Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Mike Penning
Like fuel smuggling, cigarette smuggling is a serious problem, not least because of where the profits go—we know that some go into terrorist activities. I work closely and meet regularly with HMRC and we will meet again soon, but at the end of the day we must make sure that when we get the smugglers, they are prosecuted correctly and get the right sort of sentence.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
Is the Secretary of State telling the House today that she is content with the delay in the implementation of the invitations to make submissions procedure between Customs and Excise in the Republic and HMRC in Northern Ireland? The delay is frustrating the security services, putting billions of pounds into the hands of criminals and, importantly, assisting organised crime. What is she going to do about it?
Mike Penning
Speaking on behalf of the Secretary of State in answering this question, let me say that we are doing everything we possibly can. Are we frustrated? Yes, we are. Are the police frustrated? Yes, they are. But we have to make sure that the system is robust and legal, and we will get there.
Northern Ireland
Ian Paisley Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House notes the significant and positive developments in Northern Ireland in recent years; acknowledges that challenges remain; and reaffirms its commitment to supporting peace, progress and prosperity in every community.
It gives me great pleasure to move the motion on the Order Paper in my name and those of my right hon. and hon. Friends, and to open the debate on behalf of Her Majesty’s Opposition. Hon. Members do not often get the chance to discuss Northern Ireland on the Floor of the House and I welcome this opportunity. It is good to see many Northern Ireland Members in the Chamber. The motion enables them to speak with a great deal of flexibility on the many issues that affect their constituents.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
I appreciate the hon. Gentleman giving way so early in the debate. I commend him, as a Front-Bench spokesman, for leading a debate on Northern Ireland. It is important to put on the record that this is the first Front Bencher-led debate on Northern Ireland since the 2010 election.
Vernon Coaker
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his remarks—I hope he feels like that at the end of my speech as well as at the beginning. In all seriousness, I am grateful for his remarks. The issues that affect Northern Ireland are taken seriously on both sides of the House. We need to debate them and to consider the challenges.
Mrs Villiers
It is certainly a great disappointment that the legislative consent motion has not been adopted by the Northern Ireland Executive. I understand that policing matters are hugely sensitive in Northern Ireland, for all sorts of historical reasons, but I am concerned that the abilities and the international reach of the National Crime Agency will not be available to the PSNI. Discussions are continuing on whether it will be possible to persuade the Northern Ireland Executive to provide a legislative consent motion in the future.
The right hon. Gentleman is right to highlight the question of the proceeds of crime, a matter currently dealt with by the Serious Organised Crime Agency. It would be unfortunate if such work in Northern Ireland were not taken over by another body. If it is not taken over by the NCA, it would be a matter for the PSNI and the Northern Ireland Executive to consider developing an alternative capability. Discussions are continuing, and I have discussed the matter with David Ford on a number of occasions. He has done an excellent job on trying to build consensus for this change, and we will continue to support him on that. The Home Secretary also takes a close interest in this matter, and she is considering how the NCA will operate in relation to matters that are still the responsibility of Her Majesty’s Government, including UK border matters and matters relating to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs.
The Government’s first duty in Northern Ireland is to keep people safe, and it is one that we will not shirk. I fully recognise, however, that terrorism will not be brought to an end by security means alone. As well as exercising continuing vigilance on security measures, we need to make progress on our other objectives—on the economy and on addressing sectarian division—if we are to address the problems on which paramilitaries will always try to feed.
I should like to provide some reassurance to hon. Members on the economic points that have been raised today. On taking office, this Government faced the largest deficit in the G20 and the largest in the UK’s peacetime history. In three years, we have cut that deficit by a third, and more than 1.25 million new jobs have been created in the private sector. In Northern Ireland, Labour left us with an economy that was heavily dependent on public spending—even more so than at the time of the Belfast agreement in 1998. Some studies have suggested that public spending accounts for as much as three quarters of gross domestic product in Northern Ireland. Of course I understand the historical reasons that have contributed to that, but it is unsustainable in the longer term. We simply cannot go on as we are.
Under the devolution settlement, many policy areas on the economy and unemployment fall within the Executive’s remit, and I warmly welcome the work that they have done on crucial economic matters, including their great success in attracting inward investment.
Ian Paisley
There are many things that the Government can take credit for, but the biggest disappointment for anyone in the business community is their failure to take a decision on corporation tax. That failure has been a knockout blow; it is sad, and it reflects a lack of urgency to move forward for the business community.
Mrs Villiers
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will welcome the fact that the Government are planning to reduce corporation tax across the UK economy. The Prime Minister has also set a clear pathway to a decision on whether corporation tax decisions could be devolved to Northern Ireland. The reality is that significant technical issues need to be resolved before a decision can be taken on the principle of whether to devolve the power. There are also wider constitutional issues to be considered in the context of the referendum on Scottish separation.
Significant economic responsibilities are retained by Westminster, and I am working with the Northern Ireland Executive on our shared objective of rebalancing the economy by boosting the private sector and pursuing a strongly pro-enterprise agenda. That is why we are cutting corporation tax from 28% under Labour to just 20% by 2015—the lowest rate in the G7 and joint lowest in the G20. The Prime Minister has made it clear that a decision on whether to devolve the setting of corporation tax rates to the Northern Ireland Assembly will be made in the autumn of next year.
Our deficit reduction programme has helped to keep interest rates at record lows, helping businesses and households across Northern Ireland, and our new employment allowance will see national insurance cut for 25,000 Northern Ireland businesses, with 10,000 small and medium-sized enterprises paying no tax on jobs at all. This will provide better help for business than Labour’s one-off national insurance tax break.
We have exempted Northern Ireland electricity generators from the carbon price floor, to provide a level playing field with the Republic. That was a key ask from the Northern Ireland business community, as well as from the Executive. We have also devolved long-haul air passenger duty to help to save our direct air link with the United States, again at the direct request of the Northern Ireland Executive.
Mr Dodds
That is absolutely right and, interestingly, when Sinn Fein voters were polled, a quarter of them also said they would stay in the United Kingdom. So, certainly from our perspective, things are changing in Northern Ireland in a positive and good way.
We face a number of challenges, however, including some major economic issues. We have heard a lot about them already today. In trying to build the economy, tourism is a key sector, and today is Titanic Belfast’s first anniversary. That is an iconic building, and I take some pride in it because I brought the project to the very first meeting of the Executive when I was Economy Minister in 2007, and we managed to get some substantial financial support for it. People at that stage queried whether it would be a success, but today it can be proved that it has been a success, because in the first year there have been 807,340 visitors, almost half a million of them from outside Northern Ireland and from 128 different countries. That contributed almost £30 million to the economy. It is a fantastic benefit to Belfast and to Northern Ireland as a whole. It is a world-class tourism project and product.
I recently visited the Giant’s Causeway visitor centre, built under the Northern Ireland Executive, which is attracting lots of visitors, again from outside Northern Ireland, which is the key point because it has added value to the economy. In 2012, the Olympic year, hotel occupancy in Northern Ireland in June was at the same level as that in central London, which is incredible when one thinks about it.
Ian Paisley
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to put his finger on where visitors are coming from. It is not a marginal outside increase. Apparently, of the million people who have visited the Giant’s Causeway and the Titanic centre this year, 60% are from outside the United Kingdom.
Mr Dodds
Yes, and these are very important figures, because in the past a lot of tourist attractions were dependent on repeat visitors from within Northern Ireland or from over the border, which is increasingly unsustainable in the long run. But sights of the magnitude of the Giant’s Causeway, the Titanic, St Patrick’s trail and Londonderry and the walls are all great visitor attractions. Londonderry is the UK city of culture this year. We have the G8 coming to Fermanagh as well, so there are lots of fantastic things happening in Northern Ireland. When we consider what it was like just a generation ago, we can see what can be done when politics works, and we all have a part to play in building on the peace and stability that has underpinned that progress.
Recently, of course, times have been tough. Despite the economic downturn and recession, we have still been able in Northern Ireland to attract high degrees of foreign direct investment. We are still the second best area in the United Kingdom outside London for attracting such investment, which is a very significant statistic. In the past five years, the Northern Ireland Executive have spent more on infrastructure—roads, schools, hospitals and housing—than at any time in Northern Ireland’s history. More jobs than at any time in history have been delivered by the Executive, at a time when we are delivering the lowest local taxes in the whole of the United Kingdom. Peace, stability and opportunity make a real difference to the lives of those who live in Northern Ireland.
That said, Mr Deputy Speaker—I am conscious of your earlier injunction—I want to say that it is important, as my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) said, that the Government act on corporation tax. While we welcome the moves that were made in terms of the help that the Secretary of State enunciated and the financial backing given to the Executive, and although the Executive have done a considerable amount on business rates and domestic rates and in helping lending to small businesses, and in backing the work of Invest Northern Ireland, there is no doubt, and it is the consensus among the political parties in Northern Ireland, and among business and industry, that what is needed is a game changer. If we are to alleviate high unemployment and reduce dependency on the public sector, something like the devolution of corporation tax is needed to make that happen. Of course, it is important that we retain our 100% regional aid status as far as Europe is concerned.
As for the political challenges that we faced, very briefly we have come a long way to achieve the stability and durability of the Executive and the Assembly. That must not be underestimated and should never be taken for granted. We all must continue to work hard to make sure that it is not undermined. But there is a case to be made—the people of Northern Ireland on all sides have expressed this many, many times—for reducing the bureaucracy surrounding the Assembly and the Government Departments. We have too many Government Departments with too big an Assembly. Too much is being spent on governing the place.
I welcome the fact that the review of public administration will reduce the number of councils, streamlining local government. We on the DUP Benches support the reduction in the size of the Assembly, support the reduction in the size of Government and support the idea of introducing an Opposition to the Assembly set-up, but there are other parties in the Assembly that, to varying degrees, do not lend support to that. I hope that, in the coming years, we can look back on this debate and say, “From then on, there was the desire to make devolution, and the Assembly and the Executive, work even better.”
The issues to do with the shared future, the past and how we can ensure that all sections of our community benefit from peace and stability, are absolutely key. I do not have time to go into all those, but it is incumbent on us all to work together—all the political parties in Northern Ireland, with the Government here—to move these issues forward. They cannot be left in abeyance. It is absolutely critical. I know that in the constituency that I represent, North Belfast, there are many people who, when they consider the impact of welfare reforms, or the economy, or the reductions in the public sector, and the wider political process, do have a sense of grievance. While we acknowledge and address those issues, it is the job of all of us to ensure that the positive is put forward, that we continue the progress of the last 15 years over the next 15 years, and that we continue to build on the peace and stability that has been created in Northern Ireland.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
Thank you very much for calling me, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Let me reiterate the thanks to the Opposition Front Bench spokesman and the Secretary of State for the way in which the motion was introduced, as well as the terms in which it was introduced. It was not a eulogy to the past or to one political philosophy. That is a mature way to approach things, because we are all good at trying to explain and justify why we are here and how we got to this point, when in fact our job as politicians and leaders in the community is to explain to people and give them hope, to co-ordinate and concentrate on where we are going to take them and to give them a forward-looking agenda. I am delighted that today’s debate has largely been about forward-looking policies and ideas and identity, which is important.
There is no doubt about it: Northern Ireland has changed. The legacy we have inherited has changed from when I grew up, when it was mainly a bloody and difficult politics to grow up in, to now, when it is mainly just a difficult politics to grow up and work in. The hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) is absolutely right: there are difficulties and we should not try to brush them under the carpet, but thankfully they are no longer bloody and difficult problems, but largely just difficult problems. That is an important point.
There have been positive developments. Let me turn briefly to the employment situation in Northern Ireland, which is largely pinned to that in the rest of the United Kingdom, so we are sitting at about 8.5% unemployment. That is slightly higher than the rest of the UK, but it is certainly not as high as in the Republic of Ireland, at almost 15%, or the eurozone in general, at 12%, so there is a clear benefit to continuing with the economic link, which shows that we are stronger together than apart. Jobs have been created in the last term of the Assembly; in fact, 10,244 have been created in the life of the Assembly. That is pretty incredible for Northern Ireland, given the disadvantages and problems, which we are well aware of. Indeed, £500 million of investment from overseas has been secured, and although Northern Ireland represents 2% of the UK population, 7% of all foreign direct investment comes to Northern Ireland. Those statistics on their own are encouraging in helping us to grow, develop and find a way forward.
We are a successful region, but there are obviously difficulties and challenges, and we should look at some of those. It is disappointing that one in four Sinn Fein members still believes that it is okay to murder a Protestant. That is the stark reality—that is what they said last week at their party conference when polled by the Belfast Telegraph—so leadership needs to be shown to bring that community to the point where it is never justifiable to murder for any cause. We need to make that absolutely clear.
I agree with the sentiments expressed by Micheál Martin, the leader of Fianna Fáil, when he said that a move towards a border poll would be some sort of “half-baked” gimmick. He was absolutely right, and I am glad that the Secretary of State pinned her colours to the mast today and said that she was not going to waste her time on such a poll. It is welcome to be able to clear that matter up and move on.
The hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) was absolutely correct to identify the hard work that our Select Committee is doing on fuel laundering. I know that he has briefed the Secretary of State on that matter, and I urge her and her office seriously to pursue the issues that he has put before them. They are serious issues, and they demonstrate that there is something really rotten at the heart of things. They must be addressed eagerly and with energy, so that we can put those smugglers out of business once and for all. They are stealing money from the pockets of ordinary citizens in Northern Ireland.
I have already mentioned the issue of corporation tax, and my disappointment that the Government think that a technical matter—namely, Scotland as part of the Union—is preventing us from devolving that power. I really feel that the Government should have addressed this matter much faster. The National Crime Agency has also been mentioned, and it will be disappointing if we do not achieve a level playing field for every citizen of the United Kingdom in that regard. Each of them should be part and parcel of the area in which the NCA deals with the terrible issues such as slavery, prostitution and all the other rackets that go on. It is important that Northern Ireland should have the same standing in that regard.
I want to draw the House’s attention to a full frontal attack on £16 million-worth of salaries in Northern Ireland. I have waited some time for an opportunity to put this matter on the record, and the Government must address it. They are contemplating plain packaging for cigarettes, and they are now indicating that the proposal might be in the Queen’s Speech in a matter of weeks. We need to be absolutely clear about this. According to the response to a freedom of information request, which is in the House of Commons Library, the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) was interviewed by Patrick Wintour of The Guardian on or about 28 February. Five days later, on 5 March, an article appeared in that newspaper indicating that the proposal was going to be in the Queen’s Speech. That drove 2.8% off the stock market value of the shares of a manufacturing company in the United Kingdom. The share price has not yet recovered, despite Ministers’ denials that they are going to introduce such a policy on 8 May.
The Government have a duty and a responsibility to defend employment in Northern Ireland. They might not like what is being manufactured, but that industry keeps 1,100 people in jobs in Northern Ireland and puts £60 million directly into the wage economy there. More importantly, it supports tens of thousands of other smaller companies including retail shops and other minor businesses in the locality. The Government have a serious responsibility to stop that full frontal attack on business in Northern Ireland and to address this matter once and for all. I hope that they will not put the proposal into the Queen’s Speech, and that instead they will have a serious look at defending our manufacturing industry in the tobacco sector. They will have a serious problem if they do not do so.
I ask the Minister to ensure that the freedom of information request in the Library is looked at, and to give consideration to an inquiry into whether anyone gained from the drop in share price that occurred in the five days between that interview taking place and the article appearing. Any such inquiry should look into who benefited from that share value drop, as this could be a very serious matter for all those involved in what I think was a deliberate attempt to undermine that business and to adjust share pricing, which has affected business in Northern Ireland.
I shall turn now to two events that summarise the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland. I had the sad duty, and honour, of accompanying the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) to the 30-year anniversary of the Ballykelly massacre. When I stood with him in that little church and helped to lay the wreath, I remembered how, as a 16-year-old, I had heard about that awful atrocity and witnessed the pictures of what had happened at the Droppin Well discotheque. It was awful, but it was the signature that appeared in most of our lives as teenagers growing up in Ulster during the ’70s and ’80s.
If we fast forward to last weekend, I spent the day with my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell). We toured around our constituencies and visited the Coleraine football club and its liaison officer, Andy Alcorn, and the community liaison team. We looked at 600 young people from all across the region—from Magherafelt, Cookstown, Ballymoney, Ballymena, Coleraine, Bushmills and Ballycastle—who came into the heartland of Coleraine. There they were—whether it be the Magherafelt Celtic team or the Carniny football team from Ballymena—working together, playing soccer together and enjoying sport together, even though they were from a divided community. That signifies the hope of what our future might be, as our children grow up in a much more peaceful Ulster than my generation had the chance to do. We therefore have the opportunity to create and to develop the change—not just to hope it happens, but to create it and make sure that it does.
Oral Answers to Questions
Ian Paisley Excerpts(11 years, 8 months ago)
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Mike Penning
At the outset, let me pay tribute to the work that the hon. Gentleman has done over the years. I know I upset him the other week when I was slightly robust, but Mr Speaker has also rebuked me for being too soft and quietly spoken in the past couple of weeks. Let us put it this way: I served in the Province and am very proud to have done so. No bomb is acceptable and we must get to the truth.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
Will the Minister of State acknowledge that I am a member of the second largest party of opposition in this House—that is, not the Labour party—and indicate what other reports by the Historical Enquiries Team are pending on other atrocities in Northern Ireland? Will he demonstrate that the HET must do more to reassure the majority community, as republicans murdered Protestants in Northern Ireland in cold blood and the HET should demonstrate that in its publications and findings?
Mike Penning
The issue has been raised with me on more than one occasion. I have continually looked into the evidence base and if the hon. Gentleman has evidence that such work is not taking place across the political divide in Northern Ireland, he should come and see me about it. He knows that he will get a welcome response.