Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 30th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Rebecca Long Bailey]

My right hon. Friend is 100% right. The problem with blacklisting was that it was done very much under the radar; we had Government institutions going behind legislation. This piece of legislation, however, would unashamedly carry out similar practices in broad daylight, with the full sanction of the Secretary of State and his Prime Minister.

This is an authoritarian and undemocratic Bill. The proposed amendments that I am supporting today are therefore designed simply to enhance parliamentary scrutiny, to constrain the unreasonable powers of the Secretary of State and to protect workers and trade unions, in particular by making co-operation with work notices voluntary on the part of employees, by providing that a failure to comply with the work notice will not mean a breach of contract or provide grounds for dismissal or detriment, and by limiting the reasonable steps that a trade union must take.

This despotic Bill not only represents a fundamental attack on workers’ rights, but dangerously divides a nation, demoralising and threatening to sack the very workforce who have tried to hold our country together over the last two difficult years. These amendments are the bare minimum necessary to take the dangerous edges off this very dangerous piece of legislation—but, frankly, this piece of legislation needs to be thrown in the bin.

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

It is always a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Rebecca Long Bailey).

I rise to speak in favour of amendments 80, 84, 97, 20, 83, 93, 85, 95, 92, new clause 1 and all amendments tabled by the Opposition Front Bench. I am absolutely delighted to declare that I am a member of Unite and the GMB.

I start by congratulating members of the Fire Brigades Union on their resounding strike ballot today, which really was democracy in action, and expressing solidarity with all the workers in dispute this week. This is a pernicious Bill designed to target the very same workers who, as a nation, we clapped from our doorsteps not so long ago in gratitude for their heroics during the pandemic—the same key workers who, let us not forget, are being forced to use food banks in vast numbers because their work does not pay.

The old chestnut that work pays is becoming a bigger fallacy than some hon. Members’ tax returns. Nurses, firefighters, teachers and other public sector workers are all targeted in this Bill, prohibited from striking and risking dismissal if they resist. Let us be clear: these public sector workers are being forced into industrial action in the first place by a Government who have overseen 12 years of real-terms pay cuts, the erosion of job security and pensions and the destruction of our public services. I note that the Prime Minister said today, after finally sacking his party chairman, that he

“will take whatever steps are necessary to restore the integrity back into politics”.

Well, I cannot help but find that pledge laughable as I stand here speaking out against this Government’s Bill, which will see key workers lose their protection from unfair dismissal and trade unions sued for upholding workers’ rights.

It is clear that the Government are trying to fast-track the legislation through Parliament without proper scrutiny. The Bill lacks detail, and I note that the TUC has submitted a freedom of information request to ascertain why it has been published without an impact assessment. It is a further insult to our key public sector workers that this bonfire of workers’ rights is unfolding just as the Government are laying the groundwork for another bonfire—one of financial regulations, through the Financial Services and Markets Bill.

The Prime Minister speaks about restoring integrity, yet here he is presiding over the empowerment of speculators and lifting the bankers’ bonus cap as our key workers lose their right to strike. It is beyond shameful. I have sponsored 25 amendments aimed at protecting the right of workers to take industrial action, and at neutralising this appalling Bill, which attacks our fundamental right to strike. I support Labour’s amendments to safeguard protections against unfair dismissal, and further amendments that would require the Government to submit the legislation to greater parliamentary scrutiny, including by forcing the publication of assessments of how the Bill would impact on individual workers, equalities, employers and unions.

I am deeply opposed to the Bill, which further curtails the right to strike and other trade union activities. I fully support the rights of workers to take industrial action. I voted against this dreadful Bill on Second Reading, and I will continue to oppose it in this place and out on the streets with the public, who also oppose it. We can and must do better than this dreadful, divisive and potentially unlawful Bill.

[Claudia Webbe (Leicester East) (Ind)]

I rise to speak in support of the amendments that protect democracy, our devolved Parliaments, our human rights, our workers’ rights, our compliance with international law and, fundamentally, our freedom. Those aspects are laid out in new clause 1 and amendments 92, 93, 80, 27, 83, 84, 20, 8, 40, 94, 4 and 1, among others. I declare my proud membership of Unite the Union, the GMB and Unison.

It is clear that the public do not need protecting from public sector unions. The workers and the public—ordinary people—need protecting from this Government. The only fit end for this appallingly vague, skeletal and frighteningly broad Bill is the scrapheap. It should be withdrawn or, if not, voted against in its entirety. At the very least, the amendments and new clauses are needed to minimise the immediate and potential harm that this “sack the workers” and anti-trade union Bill will cause.

The Conservative party has already demonstrated its readiness to trample on legal principles and the democratic and human rights of people in the UK. Through the Bill, as it stands, the Government are seeking to bypass democracy in this House, which is why amendments 80, 27 and 40, among others, are needed. The Government are also seeking to circumvent the established autonomy of the UK’s devolved Governments without even assessing the impact of those actions. That is why amendment 28 and others are vital.

It is essential that the amendments and new clauses force the Secretary of State of to seek the approval of Parliament to amend or add to the legislation. In fact, the Bill’s provisions are so wide and vague that it would set a precedent in allowing the Government to amend or revoke, in private, any legislation that they do not like, against any set of people they disagree with, or simply on a whim to make a political point. The Bill is also a mass assault on the rights of millions of working-class people, no matter where they live, and on the unions that enable them to organise and act together to improve their working conditions and living standards.

Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill

Ian Byrne Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 16th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

It is an honour to follow the hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Chris Clarkson) with that extremely interesting speech. I would like to put on the record that I am a proud member of Unite the union and the GMB. I will vote against the Bill and stand in absolute solidarity with all those in Liverpool, West Derby taking industrial action in defence of their pay, their conditions and their colleagues, as well as in defence of the public who rely on those services. I am proud to stand alongside workers on picket lines and will continue to support those workers in their struggle with pride. May I offer a word of advice to Conservative Members? Go to the picket lines and speak to the people on them. Maybe then the demonisation will not slip so easily from their lips.

This is a pernicious Bill that shames the House and the nation. It is designed to attack and demoralise public service workers who are taking industrial action as a very last resort. I have spoken to nurses, firefighters, civil servants and posties in Liverpool at our food pantries, who have been forced into food poverty because of the wages that they have received after 12 years of austerity—a political choice made by the Tory Government in 2010. We are now living through the wreckage of that choice, with the destruction of our NHS and public services.

Let us be clear: the reason why these workers are having to take industrial action in the first place is because of the Government and their decisions. Never, ever forget that the hunger and poverty that many public sector workers face at the moment is a political choice that the Prime Minister unfortunately finds so easy to make. We have a multi-millionaire Prime Minister who will never know what it is like to feel hungry—he will never fear the creep of poverty at the door of his home—telling public sector workers facing this dire situation that they will be sacked if they withdraw their labour when they are simply saying, “Enough is enough.” It is obscene.

We have a morally bankrupt Government with financial scandal after financial scandal, and second job after second job, bringing in draconian legislation to outlaw industrial action for the very people we clapped during covid for everything they had done for us as a nation. The Bill is purposefully lacking in detail. It is a practically unworkable and potentially unlawful attempt to undermine the right to strike. Instead of bringing it to Parliament, Ministers should have been spending time negotiating meaningfully with the trade unions about pay and conditions. They could also have used that time to write the long-promised employment Bill.

The Bill must be voted down. The draconian drift is becoming a raging current. Any parliamentarian who believes in the democratic rights of our citizens must see that clearly and kick this wretched piece of legislation out of this place.

Royal Mail and the Universal Service Obligation

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Thursday 12th January 2023 Westminster Hall

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ali. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne) for securing the debate.

Postal workers are the lifeblood of our communities, and they kept us afloat during the covid-19 pandemic. We clapped their selflessness and dedication. For many, they were, and are, the only source of human contact. They stepped up to the plate when we needed them most. It has been a pleasure to stand on picket lines in Liverpool, West Derby and witness the respect with which they are regarded in my community.

Royal Mail represents one of the clearest examples of the decimation caused by privatising a public service. It was established over 500 years ago, and the universal service obligation is now on the verge of being lost forever. That follows the service’s 2012 privatisation by the coalition Government. Royal Mail was profitable at the time of privatisation: in the year prior to its sale it reported a 60% increase in its pre-tax annual profits to £324 million. Privatisation was an awful decision.

Fast-forwarding to today, Royal Mail has paid out billions in shareholder dividends and millions in payments to chief executive officers, while hiking up stamp prices, cutting workers’ wages in real terms and failing to meet Ofcom targets for service provision. There is now an attempt by Royal Mail bosses to get the Government to change the USO, by asking to move to a minimum five-day delivery service for letters from the current minimum six-day service. While West Derby postal workers have been forced to food banks because of low pay, and 10,000 postal workers have been cut from the service in the middle of the cost of living crisis, CEO Simon Thompson received a £140,000 bonus. Royal Mail has also introduced owner drivers on lower pay and insecure contracts, which signals a move to a gig economy employment model. Workers on the picket line are terrified of that move; they are terrified for the people in their communities—not just for their own jobs.

Make no mistake: if Royal Mail’s senior leadership is allowed to continue with those plans, and with its mismanagement of the organisation’s funds, Royal Mail as we know it will simply no longer exist. It will no longer provide a service to over 32 million addresses daily. After 500 years of service, it will be broken up and turned into another gig economy parcel courier, leaving communities, businesses, customers and workers worse off. Will the Minister respond to the calls of the Opposition and the CWU and launch an urgent inquiry into the leadership of the Royal Mail, given that it is a key part of the UK’s national infrastructure and appears to have been brought to the brink of collapse due to the gross mismanagement of its business by the current management?

It is no surprise that the majority of voters want Royal Mail to be brought back into public ownership. Research from the University of Greenwich tells us that buying back Royal Mail would cost £4.6 billion, but £171 million would be saved every year, to be reinvested into the postal service. Does the Minister want to stand by and allow one of the most cherished foundation stones of our nation, the Royal Mail, to be lost forever? If the Government shared the CWU’s vision, the service could be at the forefront of the regeneration of our communities. Instead, it is becoming a hollowed-out and gutted UK version of some of the awful international companies in this sector that treat their workforce as fodder. We must be better than that. Those loyal postal workers deserve the Minister’s action and support. They and our nation deserve nothing less.

Employment Agencies and Trade Unions

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Monday 11th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

I would like to put on record that I am proud member of Unite the union and the GMB. I start by paying tribute to all those in Liverpool, West Derby and indeed across the country who are facing real-terms cuts to their pay, attacks on their conditions and security of work, attacks on their pensions, redundancy and attacks on health and safety in the workplace, and are having to take industrial action as their absolute last resort. I stand in absolute solidarity with them.

While the workers worry about their families and their families worry about their futures, as they are forced to leave the industry they have dedicated their whole lives to and are forced into poverty and using food banks, we have the disgraceful spectacle of a morally bankrupt Government using this Parliament to attack fundamental workers’ rights—and this is in the middle of a cost of living crisis, when workers are fighting against real-terms cuts to a wage so that they can actually put a meal on the table.

[Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making a fantastic speech. Does he not think that to be a working person in Britain today, to have lived through a decade of stagnating wages, to have seen their pay collapse in real terms while prices soar and to know their own Government refuse to lift a finger forces people on low pay to take strike action to try to force—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order.

[Ian Byrne]

Absolutely. I agree with everything my hon. Friend said.

This is a Government who furiously defend the class interests of those they represent in this place, and that is never the working class. The Trades Union Congress has pointed out that the action is a violation of trade union members’ right to strike, which is safeguarded by international law. Make no mistake, this is a risk to public safety, and standards will be lowered. Any consequences of these actions will lie at the foot of this Government.

The Government’s cynical regulations that we are debating tonight put agency workers, who they know have limited rights, in the position of having to turn down an assignment with the prospect that they will be denied future work by the agency if they do not want to cross a picket line. Many agency workers, such as supply teachers and bank nurses, will be trade union members themselves, and they have suffered terribly in this pandemic.

The regulations highlight the insecurity of the labour market, the erosion of workers’ rights and how flawed and immoral it all is. The pandemic shone a light on this immorality when workers with covid had to continue working because they had no sick pay. The employment model is broken for millions. We should be legislating and learning lessons from covid, and enhancing worker protections, including sick pay. Instead, tonight we are voting on a scab charter for bad employers from a Government who have picked their side.

Trade unions are the transformational vehicle for positive change—they have been for centuries and, despite the efforts of this wretched Government, will continue to be so for future generations. I will always be proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with them supporting workers in the struggle who refuse to be poor.

Tonight is yet another sad day for democracy in this place. I stand in absolute solidarity with all those trade unions and trade union members who are fighting so hard for our communities and the rights of workers everywhere. Their fight for economic and social justice has never been needed more.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Tuesday 7th June 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Energy, Clean Growth and Climate Change (Greg Hands)]

I know of my hon. Friend’s ongoing interest in all matters in relation to energy, and he makes an important point about big energy users such as the Royal Mail planning and ensuring that they are efficient and robust for the future. I will ensure that his point on industrial estates is reflected back to our Department, to the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities and to other relevant Departments.

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

T3. I have heard from constituents in West Derby how the use of fire and rehire tactics by employers such as British Gas and British Airways put them in unbearable situations during the pandemic. Shamefully, in the middle of a cost of living crisis, we see many rogue employees across all sectors utilising those immoral practices on a daily basis to drive people into poverty. As my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) made clear, we need employment legislation now and the outright outlawing of the despicable practice of fire and rehire. Can the Minister justify why workers should accept anything less from the Government?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

Later this year, the hon. Gentleman will see an effective code that will penalise the most egregious cases of fire and rehire and hit those companies in the pocket. That is an effective way of banning those egregious situations without disallowing the flexibility that some employers need in times of trouble.

Oil and Gas Producers: Windfall Tax

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Tuesday 1st February 2022 Commons Chamber

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

The impact of the cost of living crisis on my constituents and people across the country is truly harrowing and a shameful injustice inflicted by the Government. An article in the Liverpool Echo this week talked about the “perfect storm” that people in our city are facing of soaring energy costs and record inflation—all against a backdrop of a decade of Conservative austerity that has cut our support services to the bone.

According to research from Feeding Liverpool, about 14% of households in Liverpool experience fuel poverty, which is significantly higher than the England average. Some 32% of adults in Liverpool are food insecure, where food is a source of worry, frustration and stress—that is more than 150,000 people in Liverpool alone. That was all before inflation started to spiral. A humanitarian crisis demands permanent solutions, not tinkering with a broken system.

An example of that broken system was highlighted by my good friend Tony Caveney, a cabbie from Liverpool, who said in a message last week:

“An old woman in the taxi this morning said she had to get out the house to get warm.”

I did not know whether to laugh or cry, but we should all be raging with anger, because it is the political choices of the Government that have enabled the scandalous situation that many people in our communities find themselves in.

This crisis will affect generations to come. Before Christmas, I spoke in the House about what Professor Ian Sinha, a paediatrician at the fantastic Alder Hey Children’s Hospital in my constituency, said to me:

“A big issue at the moment is the interplay between food and fuel poverty—eat or heat—in essence babies and infants in the coldest houses will spend their calories trying not to get hypothermia rather than utilising the energy to grow their body systems and lay the foundations for a healthy life course”.

That is shameful. Fuel poverty is a political choice and hunger is a political choice. They are all choices made by the Government and inflicted by the Chancellor in particular. The £20-a-week cut to universal credit and his current failure to intervene in the spiralling costs of fuel bills are political choices.

Many households have already seen a significant energy price rise and the household energy price cap is expected to rise by up to 50% in April. Fuel poverty campaigners estimate that that increase will drive 2 million people into fuel poverty and impact older households already seeing the suspension of the triple lock on pensions. By voting for the motion today, the Government could introduce a windfall tax on the profits of North sea oil and gas producers, which is a much-needed first step towards funding a national package of support for households.

The crisis has been long in the making and we need the Government to bring about systemic change. Trade unions and campaigners have long argued that the privatisation of the energy sector has resulted in high profits while the public foot the bill and costs rise. People who cannot afford the extortionate bills pay with damage to their health, livelihood and wellbeing.

Workers in the industry are being made to pay through attacks on their terms and conditions by industry bosses, which have pushed many workers into fuel and food poverty. We saw that when British Gas used fire and rehire tactics against its workers at the height of lockdown, and we see it today with OVO, which is threatening to make between 1,700 and 2,000 staff redundant despite, according to Unite the Union’s estimate, its top directors taking £4.6 million out of the company in salaries and benefits in the last five years.

The system is broken. To transform this shocking situation, we need action from the Government on public ownership, decarbonisation in the energy sector, and the urgent retrofitting and insulating of houses to bring down energy costs. The practice of bailing out and subsidising private energy suppliers without the benefits of public ownership and control is wasteful and unjust. Research by Greenwich University’s public services international research unit showed that public ownership of water, energy grids and the Royal Mail would save UK households £7.8 billion a year and pay for itself within seven years.

The technology and solutions exist. What is lacking is the political will from a Government whose mission is always to prioritise private profits over the wellbeing of the people who they are supposed to represent. We do not have to look far. Across the border in Wales, the Welsh Government are going to set up a publicly owned energy provider in the near future, so another way is possible.

I urge the Government to back the motion, bring some much-needed relief quickly to worried communities across the country and have the bravery to tackle the systemic failings that are driving this humanitarian crisis to alleviate the suffering of millions. We cannot let this plight continue when it can be eradicated by the correct political choices.

Fuel Poverty

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Thursday 8th July 2021 Commons Chamber

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab) [V]]

I thank the Members who have secured this important debate.

An estimated 3.2 million households, or one in 10, are currently living in fuel poverty in England, meaning that they are below the poverty line and face much higher bills due to poor levels of energy efficiency in their homes. The covid-19 crisis has worsened existing inequalities that our communities face and has pushed many into unimaginable levels of hardship. In August, Citizens Advice estimated that 2.8 million UK adults had fallen behind on their energy bills. That will no doubt include people who receive legacy benefits and will be denied the £20-a-week uplift. I urge the Minister to press her colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions to end this injustice, which has resulted in 4,889 of my constituents missing out on vital support during the pandemic.

This week in Liverpool West Derby I spoke about this issue to Jo from St Andrews Community Network, which does a fantastic job in combating poverty in my community. Jo told me that it recently sent out an email asking the networks of food banks throughout my constituency to prepare kitchen packs for people suffering from fuel poverty who can only use a kettle to prepare foods. These packs consists of noodles, tinned fruit and meats that can be eaten cold. Let that sink in: it is 2021 and many families in my constituency are using a kettle to prepare food for their children’s meals on a daily basis. How is that levelling up, Minister? I put on record my gratitude to the team at Liverpool City Council for the citizen support scheme, which offers support for people in crisis, but without a fair funding settlement for councils, it is now under threat.

As a Commons Library briefing explains, cold homes can have negative impacts on both mental and physical health, potentially adding demand on the NHS and social care providers and directly contributing towards more people dying in the upcoming winter. Health impacts of cold homes include increased risk of heart attack or stroke, respiratory illnesses, poor diet due to “heat or eat” choices, and worsening of or slow recovery from existing conditions. Those most at risk of ill health from fuel poverty include children, the elderly, people with disabilities and people with long-term illnesses.

With this in mind, it is unthinkable that in the middle of a pandemic the Government are pushing ahead with plans that will cut support and push people even further into fuel poverty. The plan to scrap the £20-a-week universal credit uplift is shameful and must be reversed. How can the Government cut universal credit when it is clear that more support is needed, not less? This comes alongside the Government ending the eviction ban and tapering down furlough, both of which will leave people vulnerable to food poverty and debt in communities throughout this land. I genuinely fear for the situation facing our community this winter when the pandemic is far from over and when, as is clear from the Library briefing, fuel poverty already leads to illnesses that place people at serious risk from covid-19.

I ask the Minister to put herself in the shoes of a mother in the winter, freezing cold because they cannot afford to put the gas heating on and heating the kettle for the noodles they have received in a kitchen pack from the food bank for their family, and ask herself if that is something that one of the wealthiest countries in the world should be allowing to happen while, worse still, making policies that enable it further. I urge her to remember that image when she devises the policies that are creating this environment and, for the good of this nation, to change course and show some humanity, not cold indifference.

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Tuesday 9th March 2021 Commons Chamber

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab) [V]]

I listened to the Chancellor’s polished rhetoric last week and heard a man who knows nothing of and has never faced the dire circumstances that millions of people face in our nation today. This Budget offers nothing by way of a solution to the increasing levels of poverty and inequality in our communities.

The Independent Food Bank Network reported an increase of 88% in emergency food parcels between February and October 2020. Action for Children reported that 40% of families were struggling to feed their children. A Kellogg’s survey last week said that one in five schools now run food banks. In Liverpool, West Derby, we have seen a 100% increase in youth unemployment. Those are desperate, desperate statistics.

To combat that, we have a Government with a perverse interpretation of levelling up, and a Budget that shamefully denies a pay rise to public sector workers, cuts the pay in real terms of NHS staff, who are putting their lives on the line to protect ours, takes away the £20 uplift to universal credit from 6.5 million families in September, continues to deny an uplift in legacy benefits, and continues to deny justice to 4,889 of my constituents who have missed out on that vital extra support for the past year. It brings 1.3 million people into paying income tax for the first time, hits families with council tax rises of about 5%, and continues to exclude many from any Government support at all, including constituents of mine who have now gone without pay for 13 months. It also provides no support for the 700,000 households in rent arrears and those who face the threat of eviction.

Liverpool, West Derby and the nation need solutions to these grave issues. The images of hundreds of people queuing for food banks are now commonplace and they shame this Government. We need root-and-branch systemic change, but instead we have a Government tinkering round the edges of inequality with a garden strimmer.

Employment Rights: Government Plans

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Monday 25th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab) [V]]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and thank you to Opposition colleagues for securing this important debate.

I start by saying I am proud member of the GMB and Unite the union. I also declare an interest as I have a brother who is subject to hire and rehire. As mentioned by colleagues this evening, there have been reports that the Government are considering changes to employment rights, which include ending the 48-hour working week, and removing rest breaks and holiday pay entitlements. Workers are keeping our country going under unimaginable pressure, with many of those in the lowest paid sectors, such as care workers, cleaners, delivery drivers and supermarket workers on the frontline. Right now, the Government should be rewarding workers for their heroic efforts to help our communities in this pandemic and not thinking of ways to rip up the rights that protect them both physically and financially. Workers are facing this alongside public sector pay freezes and the proposed cut of £20 a week to universal credit.

The existing employment rights and protections were implemented to protect workers’ mental health and safety, and to ensure they suffer no detriment while taking necessary time off. Even with those rights in place, we know that many employers do not respect them, and the ramifications for workers’ health and safety are huge. The Government cannot level up and tackle the gross inequalities that bedevil our communities if they are engaged in a race to the bottom on employment rights. They should instead focus on improving employment rights and tackling the injustices that workers already faced and continue to face during the pandemic. One such injustice is the unfair dismissal practices used by some app-based courier and private hire companies. The practice of unfair dismissal is leaving many key workers on low incomes facing potential destitution. They urgently need the support of a Government who have so far overlooked their—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I am terribly sorry that you had only two minutes, Ian, but I am really pleased that we got you in.