Employment Rights: Government Plans

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Monday 25th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con) [V]]

Here we are again: another Monday, another Opposition day motion based on one newspaper report and framed to satisfy Labour’s endless search for social media attack ads. I speak as the proud granddaughter of a docker, from a working family. The Secretary of State has made it crystal clear that the UK does indeed have one of the best employment rights records in the world—one to be proud of, never dependent on the EU and frequently stronger than the EU’s. Our manifesto commits us to maintaining existing protections for workers and we will embrace the opportunity to decide which rules work best for the UK—those that encourage business growth, innovation and job creation.

The Government not only commit to maintaining existing workers’ rights but look to the future—a future in which we need to ensure that those same workers enjoy all the opportunities of an agile and dynamic jobs market. I have said it in this Chamber before and I do not hesitate to say it again: the heroes of our health crisis have been the incredible doctors, nurses, care workers and key workers. The heroes of the economic crisis will be the job creators, innovators and entrepreneurs who will create the high-growth jobs of the future. They need a Government who will prepare the best pitch for them, focusing on jobs, skills and working conditions fit for the 21st century. The working environment is changing at pace as we speak. Tens of thousands of people are working remotely from home, which raises new issues. To what extent should employers be able to constrict workers’ homes as workplaces? To what extent should employers be able to monitor employees? How can we protect workers against potentially overbearing, all-encompassing technology? How can we scale up innovation and skill our workforce to deliver the green technology of the future?

The Labour party does not have any answers. The Labour party is permanently rooted in the 1970s. It has just confirmed that it is considering a four-day week. Labour Members recently stood on a manifesto that aimed to nationalise energy, mail, water and transport and even establish a state drugs company. While Labour wants to turn the companies that delivered our life-saving vaccines into the Trabants of the pharmaceutical sector, this Government will care for the future of work and the future of workers.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

For the convenience of the House, I should inform you that the winding-up speeches will begin at 9.40 pm with Ed Miliband, followed by Mr Paul Scully at 9.50 pm, and the Question will be put at 10 pm.

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[Mark Eastwood (Dewsbury) (Con) [V]]

I start by welcoming the Secretary of State to his post. We have some of the highest standards of workers’ rights in the world, and I strongly welcome his assurances that those will not be lowered. However, the pandemic has exposed unsettling practices, including some employers using digital surveillance software to track their employees’ homeworking. The most high-profile software used for that purpose was Microsoft’s productivity score, which allowed employers to track users’ activity. While that has since been adjusted to hide individual data, it is clear that other pieces of software could easily fill the gap.

I know from personal experience how distressing this sort of probing from employers can be, albeit in a more analogue fashion. At one stage in my career as a successful sales manager, after my commission was cut, I entered a period where my sales performance slipped. That prompted my employer to take monitoring to a concerning level. A tracker was placed in my car. I constantly received phone calls demanding updates. I received regular, aggressive emails, and I was summoned to meetings. The entire episode was unpleasant and intrusive. It felt like an invasion of my privacy, and as though I was being deliberately bullied out of the company.

To my employer’s surprise, however—and, I imagine, to the surprise of some hon. Members—I was a member of the trade union Prospect. Thanks to its help and attendance at meetings, we arrived at a resolution. By that point, the relationship with my employer had become untenable, and I moved to a direct competitor, Teal HealthCare, part of the Senator Group.

Teal was a dutiful employer, which allowed me the freedom to excel at my job again. It paid me until I was elected. I refer Members to my entry in the register of interests. It was incredibly supportive when I became an MP, and I thank Teal and the Senator Group for their backing, and Prospect for helping me through a difficult period. Ironically, after moving to Teal, I helped to win the biggest contract awarded in the sector, in direct competition with the employer that drove me out—he who laughs last.

The important point, however, as digital monitoring begins to appear more attractive to employers, in particular if some seek to adopt remote working patterns after the pandemic, is that that approach can backfire. Used properly, performance monitoring is a vital tool for managers to encourage progression and to resolve workplace issues to the benefit of the firm and of the employee. However, clearly there is a distinction between monitoring performance on the one hand and monitoring activity on the other. I hope that employers reflect on that.

Finally, I strongly recommend that anyone in a professional environment—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Sorry, Mark, you just ran out of time there.

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[Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) (Con) [V]]

Listening to many Opposition Members, I wonder whether they are residing in some kind of alternate universe. The hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) gave a wonderfully tub-thumping speech, talking about the Conservative party’s so-called ideological attack on Britain’s workers. The hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) claimed the Government are going to strip away the rights of our key workers. What absolute nonsense. Frankly, I find it completely shameful, at a time of national crisis, when our constituents are terrified about losing their livelihoods, when our healthcare staff are battling this virus day and night, and when thousands of volunteers are standing wrapped up against the cold to help roll out the vaccine to keep their parents and grandparents safe, that Labour is once again using an Opposition day motion to spread its mistruths for the sake of a few Twitter likes and to put genuine fear into the very people it claims it wants to protect. It is completely shameful.

I am beyond proud of our country’s record on workers’ rights. Regardless of any referendum fearmongering, it is a record that has never depended on our membership of the EU. In countless instances, we go far beyond the EU: we guarantee five and a half weeks of annual leave compared to the EU’s four; we guarantee 52 weeks of maternity leave, 39 of which are paid, compared to the EU’s meagre guarantee of 14 weeks; we have had guaranteed paternity leave and pay for 20 years, while the EU only introduced it last year; we guarantee the right to request flexible working, which is something that the EU only provides to parents returning from parental leave. I could go on, but I am sure that the House gets the point. Those are just a few quick examples of our excellent record put in an international context.

I was proud to stand on a Conservative manifesto that promised greater protections for workers, including the introduction of a new single body to crack down on any breaches of employment law. Back when I worked in restaurants, I would see examples of breaches, like managers pocketing waiting staff’s tips at the end of the night. That might seem tedious to some who had never had to scrape a living, but those occasions really made a difference—not just to my wages, but to my overall happiness at work. A more streamlined reporting process for breaches of employment law will go a long way to making workers, particularly those in the lowest-paid industries, feel more secure in their jobs. I really look forward to seeing and scrutinising the Government’s plans for this in due course.

I heard the Secretary of State loud and clear earlier when he said unequivocally that we will not reduce workers’ rights. We can waste taxpayers’ money debating motions such as this one that have absolutely no root in reality and will have no impact on policy, or we can focus our efforts on something that my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) rightly outlined as being of paramount importance: job creation. We can debate workers’ rights, but I would rather talk about how we keep our workers in work in the first place. This pandemic has had catastrophic impacts on our economy and on jobs. Instead of fearmongering, I call on my Labour colleagues to stand with us in focusing on—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. We have to move on. I call Margaret Greenwood.

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[Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Northfield) (Con)]

Another week and another attempt by the Opposition to scaremonger and spread fear—time that could have been used in this place to debate how we respond, collectively, to the pandemic and global health crisis, but time yet again wasted on providing social media videos to scare people across the country. It is as if the Labour party has some kind of holy trinity of scaremongering—the NHS, animal welfare and standards, and employment rights—which they attempt to scare people with time and again. It was Einstein who said that the definition of madness was doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. We saw it in 2010, 2015, the 2016 EU referendum, 2017 and 2019. Again and again, these arguments were deployed across the country and every single time those arguments were rejected roundly by the public.

I genuinely think Labour Members do not understand the British working class anymore. It is because of our NHS, it is because of our standards in animal welfare and food, and because of our employment rights that people are proud to be British. Time and again, at every election and at every opportunity such as today, they see Labour MP after Labour MP talking down this country and its achievements—the very reasons why we are able to stand tall around the world. It is because of the living wage of £10.50 by 2024 that people are proud to be British. It is because of our 28-week sick pay that they are proud to be British. It is because of our 52 weeks maternity leave that they are proud to be British. And it is because of our minimum 28 days annual leave that they are proud to be British.

Every time we hear from Opposition Members, they try to make the same comparisons with the European Union and the ways that British standards are inferior, but it does not take five seconds to Google those comparisons. There is no requirement in the European Union for a living wage. There is no minimum for sick pay. There is 14 weeks compared with our own 52 weeks for maternity leave, and 20 days rather than 28 for minimum annual leave. It is because of this that people do not believe these scaremongering tactics. It is because of this that they dismiss their many Facebook and Twitter videos. When they look at the Labour party, they no longer see a serious alternative Government, because on occasions such as this, when it could step up to the challenge and debate the issues facing this country, it decides—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I call Ian Byrne, to finish at 9.40 pm.

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab) [V]]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and thank you to Opposition colleagues for securing this important debate.

I start by saying I am proud member of the GMB and Unite the union. I also declare an interest as I have a brother who is subject to hire and rehire. As mentioned by colleagues this evening, there have been reports that the Government are considering changes to employment rights, which include ending the 48-hour working week, and removing rest breaks and holiday pay entitlements. Workers are keeping our country going under unimaginable pressure, with many of those in the lowest paid sectors, such as care workers, cleaners, delivery drivers and supermarket workers on the frontline. Right now, the Government should be rewarding workers for their heroic efforts to help our communities in this pandemic and not thinking of ways to rip up the rights that protect them both physically and financially. Workers are facing this alongside public sector pay freezes and the proposed cut of £20 a week to universal credit.

The existing employment rights and protections were implemented to protect workers’ mental health and safety, and to ensure they suffer no detriment while taking necessary time off. Even with those rights in place, we know that many employers do not respect them, and the ramifications for workers’ health and safety are huge. The Government cannot level up and tackle the gross inequalities that bedevil our communities if they are engaged in a race to the bottom on employment rights. They should instead focus on improving employment rights and tackling the injustices that workers already faced and continue to face during the pandemic. One such injustice is the unfair dismissal practices used by some app-based courier and private hire companies. The practice of unfair dismissal is leaving many key workers on low incomes facing potential destitution. They urgently need the support of a Government who have so far overlooked their—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I am terribly sorry that you had only two minutes, Ian, but I am really pleased that we got you in.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

I thank hon. and right hon. Members for raising many interesting and important points. The right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) talked about a back catalogue; well, his was laid bare by my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Lee Anderson) when he talked about the fact that, when the right hon. Gentleman was Leader of the Opposition, the Labour party, which claimed it was a living wage employer, had security staff at its headquarters complaining that they were not even paid the living wage.

What we are doing here, though, is working on workers’ protection for the 21st century. We heard from my hon. Friends the Members for Dudley North (Marco Longhi) and for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) about the challenge of job creation as well as job protection. My hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Laura Farris) talked about issues of automation. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Julie Marson) talked about the risks of working from home, saying that if we do not get that right, it is the equivalent of living at work, and my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Mark Eastwood) talked about the monitoring of software where people are working from home. We have heard many powerful and passionate speeches today, and I am grateful to everybody across the House who has contributed.

I will start by reiterating what the Business Secretary said in his opening speech: there will be no reduction in workers’ rights. Let me turn to address some of the important issues. Following our departure from the European Union, the Government are committed to maintaining the existing levels of protection for workers provided by our current laws and regulations. As an independent country, it is right that the UK’s Government and elected MPs can now decide what rules should apply that work best for the UK, including on policies around business growth, innovation, job creation and strengthening protection for workers. That means we can look for improvements where we believe there is a need to do so.

As laid out in our manifesto, we will bring forward legislation that will make workplaces fairer by providing better support for working families and new protections for those in low-paid work, and by encouraging flexible working. We have been clear that there will be no reduction in workers’ rights, and the Business Secretary has reiterated that multiple times. In fact, as we have heard, we have one of the best workers’ rights records in the world.

Our high standards were never dependent on membership of the EU. Indeed, the UK provides for stronger protections for workers than are required by EU law: one of the highest minimum wages in Europe, which will increase again on 1 April; 5.6 weeks of annual leave compared with the EU requirement of four weeks; and a year of maternity leave, with the option to convert to parental leave to enable parents to share care. The EU minimum maternity leave is just 14 weeks. The right to flexible working for all employees was introduced in the UK in the early 2000s, and we will build on that, but the EU agreed rules only recently and will offer the right to parents and carers only. The UK introduced two weeks’ paid paternity leave in 2003; again, the EU has only recently legislated for that.

One of the EU’s own agencies, Eurofound, ranked the UK as the second best country in Europe for workplace wellbeing, behind only Sweden. It is totally disingenuous of the Labour party to claim that we do not stand on the side of the workers, and we will not take lectures from Labour on employment rights. On the Government side of the House, we have a track record of driving up protections for workers. It was a Conservative Government that introduced the national living wage and a Conservative-led Government that banned exclusivity clauses in zero-hours contracts.

By March last year, workers across the UK had enjoyed 26 consecutive months of real pay increases, and women and workers from black, Asian and minority ethnic backgrounds made up a larger proportion of the workforce than ever before. From the outset of the pandemic, the Government have acted decisively to provide an unprecedented package of support to protect people’s jobs. This is real action to drive up protection for workers, not just political posturing and confected argument, as we have seen from the Labour party today.

It is a sad fact, though, that due to the impacts of covid-19 and despite the support that the Government have put in place, some employers are considering making redundancies on a larger scale. We urge employers to consider all alternatives before making redundancies. However, we recognise that it is not possible to save every business and every job.

The House should be left in no doubt that the Government will always continue to stand behind workers and stamp out unscrupulous practices where they occur. A number of Members here today have made the point that firing and rehiring practices are illegal in some European countries and that we should look to make them illegal in the UK. First, it is important to note that the legal framework relating to employment law in European countries differs from that of the UK, so we cannot compare like for like. Also, in contrast to the more restrictive European frameworks, the UK’s flexible labour markets mean that we intend to enjoy higher employment rates and lower unemployment than countries with more rigid approaches. Before covid struck, the UK unemployment rate was only 4%, compared with the EU27 average of 6.6%. However, in all circumstances, including where employers are contemplating redundancies, we expect employees to be treated fairly and in a spirit of partnership. Laws are in place to ensure that contractual terms and conditions cannot discriminate unlawfully—for example, on grounds of race, sex and disabilities—and we know that most employers will do the right thing. Most employers want to retain their staff, especially as they have invested in training them over a period of time.

As the Business Secretary mentioned in his opening remarks, the Government take seriously reports that threats about firing and rehiring are being used as a negotiating tactic. I myself have condemned it many times in this Chamber. Officials in the Department have engaged ACAS to gather evidence of incidents where fire and rehire has been used. It has approached a wide range of stakeholders such as businesses, employee representatives and other bodies to ensure that we are hearing a range of perspectives. ACAS officials have made good progress in their independent and impartial discussions and are expected to share the evidence gathered with my officials in February this year. We think that this evidence-led approach is the right one for such a sensitive subject.

I want to conclude by reiterating that there will be no reduction in workers’ rights. Our proud track record of strengthening employment rights while maintaining the freedom and flexibility in the labour market that have supported businesses to create jobs and our economy to grow should leave the House in no doubt that we are a party on the side of workers. As laid out in our manifesto, we will bring forward legislation that will make workplaces fairer by providing better support for working families and new protections for those in low-paid work, and by encouraging flexible working. This will balance the needs of employers and workers, ensuring that everybody benefits from flexibility.

As I said earlier, we have seen a confected, manufactured vote to create snippets and clips for social media, which will foment division. This will foment some pretty poisonous things on social media. I make one challenge today. Conservative Members have talked today about 21st-century issues that we need to tackle in terms of workers’ protections. When Members on either side of the House tweet tonight, they can either tweet a clip about this manufactured vote and who has voted for what, after a useful constructive debate, or they can actually save lives and protect employment rights for 6 million people who are suffering from domestic abuse at the moment. Let us tweet about the fact that responsible employers should sign up to the employer initiative on domestic abuse. This is workers’ protection that we can get right tonight and tomorrow morning on social media. From a business point of view, it will help to tackle a £1.9 billion productivity issue, but it is so much more than a business issue when we talk about workers’ protection. It is about people’s lives, people’s mental health and people’s physical health, and we can all do this today. This is worker protection. This is what this side of the House does. It is real, proactive action for people up and down the country. We will not posture; we will act when appropriate.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Before I put the question, I gently remind the House that if Members shout no, it will be expected that they will not then vote for the motion; indeed, it would be frowned upon if they did so. My hearing is pretty okay, however, and if I hear Members persistently shouting no, a Division will take place. That is what I am anticipating.

Question put.