Northern Ireland: Legacy of the Troubles

Debate between Hilary Benn and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 4th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, the purpose of article 2 was to ensure that there was no diminution in the rights of people in Northern Ireland as a result of our withdrawal from the European Union. I certainly support that principle, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman does as well. The last Government thought it right to put it in place, because they negotiated that arrangement.

In respect of an appeal, we will just have to wait and see what the Supreme Court—if we reach that point and it goes there—has to say. I will not prejudge either a verdict or, indeed, what might flow from that. Let me just remind the hon. Gentleman, in relation to the Finucane inquiry, that there were very specific reasons. The previous Labour Government had made a commitment that in certain cases, if an independent judge determined that there be a public inquiry, we would hold one, and I believe that when Governments make commitments, we should keep our word.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I welcome the news that the Secretary of State will repeal the legacy Act. This is something that the previous Government—I say this with great respect—simply did not get right, and this Government now have an opportunity to get it right. The Secretary of State has outlined the greater scope for investigation and inquiry. I led an Adjournment debate in the last Parliament about the 10 Kingsmill workers murdered by the IRA in Newry, and I would seek an inquiry for them, for the victims of the La Mon massacre, in which the IRA murdered numerous innocent people, and for the four Ballydugan soldiers murdered on 9 April 1990.

Stuart Montgomery was three weeks out of police training college when he was murdered by the IRA in Pomeroy. My cousin Kenneth Smyth was murdered by the IRA on 10 December 1971. His friend Daniel McCormick was murdered beside him. Raymond McCord’s son was murdered by loyalists. I could mention many, many others. Will all those who seek justice be able to access that which they have requested in the past, which they have been denied so often—and equal to the decision for the Finucane family? Can the Secretary of State please further expand on the support that will ensure that there will be no witch hunt against armed forces and RUC officers, who served honourably for Crown and country? I apologise for the emotion.

[Hilary Benn]

The hon. Gentleman has no reason to apologise to anybody, because he has just demonstrated what I said in my statement about the pain that endures to this day on the part of families who have lost dearly loved family members. The way that he put his question, and the emotion that he was not afraid to show—I think he had no control over it; of course not, because this is how we feel when we reflect on these terrible incidents. He mentioned one of those killings, and here we are in December, which is a particularly difficult time of year. There are a number of anniversaries, and we are approaching Christmas, when we feel the loss of loved ones so greatly.

We have to work together as hard as we can to provide—if it is possible, because it may not be possible in all cases—the means through which the families can get some answers about what happened. But in the end, each family has to come to terms with the loss that they have endured in their own way. I cannot think of anything that is more difficult to do, but we need to stand with them every step of the way. I stand with the hon. Gentleman—he is my hon. Friend—in saying that.

Northern Ireland City Deals

Debate between Hilary Benn and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 9th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn]

I think we are going to have to wait for the Chancellor’s announcement on 30 October, but as I have already told the House, other partners are involved in those deals. Of course, I welcome the Executive’s announcement yesterday that they will proceed with the funding of elements of those deals out of the money that they have.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. With your indulgence, Mr Speaker, would the Secretary of State extend our collective thanks to the emergency services and local people for their response to the Strangford college bus crash on Monday past in my constituency? It is a miracle that no one was killed, and we thank God for that.

There have been headlines over the last few weeks about potential pauses of funding for city deals in parts of Northern Ireland, some of which cover areas of my constituency. Can the Secretary of State clarify that in the future action will be taken to ensure that funding that is offered will be delivered, and that devolved nations will not suffer as a result of central funding shortfalls here?

[Hilary Benn]

With your permission, Mr Speaker, I echo what the hon. Gentleman said about that bus crash. I must say that, when I first read the report, I was very fearful—I think we all were—about what might have been the consequences. I think the response of the emergency services was terrific, and I wish all those who were injured the very best for the future. I understand that the school is providing support, because it must have been and is still a very traumatic experience for the students who were on the bus.

In answer to the hon. Gentleman’s second point, we would all like to live in a world of certainty on a whole load of things. Being in government is about having to deal with the bits where certainty is not quite as certain as the hon. Gentleman may have hoped.

Patrick Finucane Murder

Debate between Hilary Benn and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 11th September 2024 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn]

As I have already indicated, I will seek to establish the inquiry as quickly as possible. How long it will take is ultimately in the hands of the judge when he or she is appointed.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. As he understands, the Democratic Unionist party stood against the legacy legislation, in the interests of pursuing justice for victims. What he says today will give hope to families such as those affected by Kingsmill. I had an Adjournment debate on the Kingsmill massacre in the last Session. On 5 January 1976—48 years ago—10 innocent men who just happened to be Protestants were murdered with weapons that were linked to 40 other serious Republican terrorist crimes over a 15-year period. Information has indicated that the perpetrators were helped by the Garda Síochán. Clearly some of the Garda Síochán had IRA sympathies. It could be said that by their very position, they were agents of the state of the Republic of Ireland. Will the families of those 10 innocent Protestant men be granted the same path to justice as the Finucane family? If no inquiry is granted on Kingsmill, it will be perceived—and indeed will be proven by the Secretary of State himself—that a two-tier system of justice for victims has been clearly enshrined by this Government. How disappointing, how disgusting, and how angry that makes me.

[Hilary Benn]

I am sorry to have disappointed the hon. Member. As I indicated, having met the one survivor of the Kingsmill massacre, I have some appreciation of just what an appalling and brutal event that was, at a time of many appalling and brutal murders. There has been an inquest, which concluded recently. As I recall, it held the Provisional IRA responsible for that murder. I am sure that the families want to proceed further, and one of the options open to them is to go to the independent commission, but at the risk of repeating myself, I need to point out that I came to my conclusion because the Finucane case is exceptional, for the reasons that I have tried to explain.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hilary Benn and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 24th July 2024 Commons Chamber

[Sorcha Eastwood (Lagan Valley) (Alliance)]

3. Whether he has had discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on a revised financial formula for Northern Ireland.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

9. If he will have discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on reforming the Barnett formula for Northern Ireland.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)]

The interim fiscal framework agreed earlier this year introduced a needs-based funding formula set at 124% of spending per head in England, based on the advice of the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council, and we are committed to taking forward these discussions with the Executive.

[Hilary Benn]

The Northern Ireland Fiscal Council was set up to help to answer the question about what the need is in Northern Ireland. It came up with a range of between 121% and 127%, and opted for 124% in the middle. The fact that that was in the interim fiscal framework that the previous Government negotiated is welcome, and was welcomed by the Finance Minister in Northern Ireland. We are committed to taking those discussions forward, and I understand that the Finance Minister in the Executive has already met the new Chief Secretary to the Treasury.

[Jim Shannon]

May I, too, welcome the Secretary of State to his place and wish him well in the role that he now plays? The Chancellor has indicated that there will be a 5% increase in wages for health workers and those in the education sector, but unfortunately, given the current Barnett consequentials for Northern Ireland, that will not mean 5% for those workers in Northern Ireland. Will the Secretary of State urgently look at that issue to ensure that health and education workers in Northern Ireland deserve the same increase in their wages as those on the mainland do because, quite clearly, I am here for them?

[Hilary Benn]

As the hon. Gentleman will be well aware, decisions about pay in Northern Ireland are a matter for the Executive. Any additional spending in England will apply through the Barnett consequentials to Northern Ireland in the normal way.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Hilary Benn and Jim Shannon

2nd reading
Wednesday 24th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn]

The right hon. Gentleman links the pay question to his stance on the DUP’s difference of view on the Windsor framework and the protocol. I say to him in return that it is equally true that if the DUP were to go back into government, public sector workers would get their pay increase. That is why I said a moment ago that I hope very much that that will be the case.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Back home in the papers, with TV correspondents and in media statements, those in the unions say clearly that the problem does not lie with the politicians but—with respect—it lies with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who has control of the moneys. He, in his own right, could settle the claims for those in education, healthcare and elsewhere. The moneys are there. The unions say, “Let the Secretary of State do it.” Has the shadow Secretary of State heard the same story that I have heard in the news and media?

[Hilary Benn]

I have indeed heard the unions making precisely that point. I have set out to the House that I understood why the Secretary of State took that approach initially, but I do not think that public sector workers should continue to be held hostage to the failure thus far. I hope that it will change soon in order to solve this problem, which is why I am calling on the Secretary of State to release the funds now.

We need to be honest about how we got to the deadlock that the Government, and indeed the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson), as the leader of his party, have been grappling with. One of the many consequences of leaving the EU was that a decision had to be taken about what to do about trade across the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. Everyone agreed that the border had to remain open—there were not many things on which everyone agreed when it came to Brexit, but that was one of them—and everyone agreed that the EU needed to be sure that goods crossing that border complied with the rules of the single market. There was no escaping that. The Government decided that the answer would be the Northern Ireland protocol.

Before I occupied this role, I was one of many people who argued that the implementation of the protocol would not work in Northern Ireland as originally intended, including for reasons that many in the Unionist community had pointed out. In fairness to Maroš Šefčovič, he understood what the problems were and changed the EU’s approach. That is why I genuinely believe that the Windsor framework represents a significant step forward, and why Labour voted for it.

Of course, detailed implementation will need to be worked through—that is another reason the Executive need to return—but most businesses tell me that the green lane is working reasonably well. As I said last week—I make no apology for reinforcing this point today—the framework is here to stay and will continue to be implemented by whoever is in government in Westminster. With respect, anyone who thinks otherwise has simply got it wrong, not least because any hope of negotiating future arrangements of benefit to Northern Ireland with the EU will depend on the Windsor framework being implemented. If the UK were to renege yet again on an international agreement that it has signed, which has happened before, no sanitary and phytosanitary agreement or anything else would be reached, because trust would once again have been destroyed—absolutely destroyed.

At the same time, of course, unlike the rest of the UK, Northern Ireland continues to enjoy ready access to both the UK and EU markets, which is a huge opportunity for jobs and economic growth in the years ahead. Those are facts that nothing will change. What the Government have been doing, as we all understand, is negotiating on measures that they could take to reinforce Northern Ireland’s position in the UK internal market. The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley has wisely and repeatedly said—and I support him in this—that any agreement has to be acceptable both to Unionists and to nationalists. That has shown great wisdom. In addition, there is now a financial offer on the table that I think provides a basis on which to go forward. After months of negotiation between the Government and the DUP, now is the moment to decide whether to restore the institutions.

On the detail of the Bill, of which there is not much, I have one question. In his press statement on 19 January, the Secretary of State said:

“I intend to introduce new legislation which will take a pragmatic, appropriate and limited approach to addressing the executive formation period and support Northern Ireland departments to manage the immediate and evident challenges they face in stabilising public services and finances.”

I take it from those words that actually he was referring to another Bill that he thinks might be needed if the current negotiations fail. Can he confirm that that is the case? I am not asking for any further detail, but we all hope that the institutions return and that such a Bill will not prove necessary. Will he assure the House that, as and when there is an outcome either way, he will immediately make a statement to the House?

Energy Bill [Lords]

Debate between Hilary Benn and Jim Shannon

2nd reading
Tuesday 9th May 2023 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore). I agree with every single word he said. If we do not work together on this, we really will be failing our constituents.

I support this big, important and complex Bill, but the test we should apply is very simple: will it give us the tools we need to achieve energy security in a net zero future? As the right hon. Gentleman said, we know exactly what needs to be done. We now need to get on and make it happen.

Some of the policy changes have turned out to be quite simple. The decision to say that petrol and diesel cars cannot be sold after 2030 has been brilliantly effective, because it has led to a huge increase in innovation and to new electric models coming on to the market, but other areas are much more complex.

I will address my remarks to the transition in home heating, which is intensely personal to all our constituents and, indeed, to all of us. There are currently 23 million homes in this country that are dependent on gas for their heating, which we know will have to change because the point will eventually come when no more natural gas comes through the pipes. The policy question is, what will replace that gas? Will it be electric heating, in the form of heat pumps or electric boilers? Will it be district heating? Will it be, for some consumers, hydrogen?

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I support what the right hon. Gentleman is saying. The Government should also consider hydrotreated vegetable oil. We have a depot at Carryduff in my constituency, and the National Trust property at Portaferry and properties in Millisle are using it. It is a proven option. Does he feel the Government need to widen the net and consider HVO as a possibility?

[Hilary Benn]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, because I think we will need all the current technologies and all the technologies that have yet to be invented to meet this challenge.

Of course, the advantage of heat pumps is that they are extremely efficient. Provided that the electricity comes from renewable sources, and all our electricity will come from renewable sources in the not-too-distant future, they are genuinely zero carbon. They work very well in some houses, but they do not work in others. I think of a row of 40 back-to-back houses in my constituency. The doors open on to the street, so where exactly would they put a heat pump? Well, they would not.

Hydrogen is also zero carbon when it is burned, but for hydrogen to work it has to be made through electrolysis using renewable electricity—so-called green hydrogen. There are other ways of producing hydrogen. There is the blue hydrogen question. Can we truly capture the CO₂ and hold it through carbon capture and storage?

The other advantage of hydrogen is that it is “boiler out, boiler in”. Nothing else has to be changed, but there are practical issues, which the Secretary of State mentioned, when it comes to safety and operation. The gas companies are working on that, although it is worth remembering that 50% of coal gas is hydrogen. Many of us lived through the burning of a fuel that is 50% hydrogen, but hydrogen will succeed as a long-term replacement in some cases only if we can produce enough green hydrogen quickly enough, which requires a huge increase in renewable electricity, because the disadvantage of green hydrogen is that it is not very energy-efficient to produce. Three units have to be put in to get one unit of heat, although we currently pay turbine operators to turn off their turbines when the grid cannot take the electricity they would otherwise produce. It is obvious—why do we not use it to produce green hydrogen for storage?

As I said to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), I think we will need all the technologies, in all sizes and colours, to succeed. I do not think it is the Government’s job to pick one or another. The Government’s job is to encourage them all. Where I think the Government have a responsibility is in quickly clarifying how plans to decarbonise home heating in particular places will be pulled together, because with great respect to the new Department, it will not come up with a plan for the city of Leeds and its 800,000 people. The sooner it is clear how the local authority, working with Ofgem, the energy companies and others, will decide what are the appropriate technologies to make the transition, and in which places, the better.

My final point is on the important question of who will pay for this change. My right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) made this point in his excellent speech. We cannot have a transition to net zero in which some people end up having to pay, or being asked to pay, huge costs. We all have constituents who can barely pay their gas bill at the moment, and we cannot ask them to pay for the cost of a heat pump, even with one of the Government’s 90,000 grants. Those grants will not convert 23 million homes. Frankly, we are way off the pace when it comes to home heating. That means that when a gas boiler dies, the homeowner, social landlord or landlord will put in another gas boiler because it is currently cheaper than a heat pump.

We have to get to net zero in a way that is fair to people, wherever they live and whatever they do. We cannot lumber them with costs that they simply cannot afford. If we seek to do that, those 23 million homes simply will not be converted. That is why, in this Bill and in many other ways, we need more clarity and more speed. When the Bill completes its passage through this House, I hope it will emerge even better equipped, with all the tools we need to do the whole job.

Protecting and Restoring Nature: COP15 and Beyond

Debate between Hilary Benn and Jim Shannon

Thursday 14th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn]

I agree completely. There are one or two insects in the north of Scotland—midges in particular—that can cause a certain amount of distress, but just think of the glory of the Scottish countryside and the mountains. Who does not feel a sense of awe and wonder as they contemplate the astonishing biodiversity and landscape that our small islands reveal unto us?

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the right hon. Gentleman for the planting that he has done on his acres of land. He spoke about the changes that he has seen. I am fortunate to live on a farm, where we have had the opportunity to plant trees directly. We have planted some 3,500 trees, retained the hedgerows and put in two ponds. We regularly see bees, moss and lots of wildlife. The Government have committed to replanting across the whole United Kingdom. Does the right hon. Gentleman feel that there should be more of a commitment to tree planting, to ensure that we can become the lungs of the world?

[Hilary Benn]

I agree completely. There should be no limit to the number of trees that we can plant. We can each play our part if we have the opportunity. As MPs, because of the nature of our job, we probably get invited to plant the odd tree in our constituencies.

The point that the right hon. Member for Islington North made about front gardens is really important. One of the things we did after the floods of 2007 was to change the planning rules. People cannot hard pave over their front gardens any more unless they use permeable paving, because if we pave, tarmac and concrete over all the land in a town or city and huge quantities of rain fall out of the sky, of course the water is going to flood into people’s homes. That makes us realise the inter- connection between our choices as human beings and the consequences of not paying sufficient attention to nature.

I would argue that to be disconnected from nature is to be disconnected from the Earth itself, so it is not just self-preservation that should urge us to confront the threat of climate change and biodiversity loss, which are absolutely connected, but our love for the soil from which we all came and to which one day we will all return—but not just yet.