Devolution and the Union

Gerald Howarth Excerpts

Thursday 20th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

I apologise to the House for not having been here at the start of proceedings. I hope Members will understand that I was having lunch with our former colleague, my great friend Mr Geoff Hoon, a former Defence Secretary who now does sterling work promoting British defence exports around the world on behalf of Westland Helicopters and who is currently based in my constituency.

I salute my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) and the others responsible for bringing this debate before the House. It is of enormous importance because, first and foremost, we tamper with constitutional matters at our peril. We should be very, very nervous about upsetting constitutional arrangements. There is no doubt that the devolution process, which was started in 1997 by the previous Labour Government, was designed to be a sop to nationalist sentiment, but far from being a sop it actually fuelled it. I took part in the Scotland referendum, along with my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Michael Moore). I went up to Scotland and as an Anglo-Scot—my Douglas family are on the borders of Scotland—I found it a very depressing experience. I believe it has opened Pandora’s box.

Reference has been made to the vow. [Interruption.] I will make some progress before I let the Scottish nationalists intervene. The so-called vow issued by the leaders of the three main political parties was, I recall, dismissed at the time by the Scottish nationalists as just a gimmick. Now they have grasped it as though it were the holy grail. It is as though the vow, which was made out of nowhere, is now the very thing on which they hang. I made it clear at the time, as, indeed, did many people I spoke to on the doorsteps in Scotland, that the leaders could only make those promises subject to the will of Parliament. They cannot just make policies—certainly not policies of such constitutional importance—on the hoof. It had to be a decision of this House and the other place. It should, therefore, come as no surprise that it is not being taken for granted by anybody other than the Scottish nationalists.

[Dr Julian Lewis]

I am completely undecided on the correct course to take when a vow that could well have influenced, to some extent, the result of a referendum was given without the authority of Parliament. Does not the whole process show the danger of panic reactions by all three party leaders in the aftermath of a single rogue opinion poll?

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point. I think that one of the factors that influenced the campaign in the end was my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister speaking directly to the Scottish people about his passion for retaining the Union and his belief in the importance of Scotland.

Unlike my namesake, the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth), I do not sense that there is any enormous appetite in England for a change in our constitutional arrangements. In particular, I do not believe there is the appetite mentioned by the Local Government Association for devolution of further powers to the English regions. Aldershot certainly does not have that appetite, but it may exist in Knowsley.

[Pete Wishart]

Is it the view of Tory Back Benchers, therefore, that the vow is not even worth the price of the paper it was written on?

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

That is a very stupid question. The constitutional point is that the leaders of the three parties made a commitment, but they are not in a position to deliver upon that commitment, because it is both Houses of Parliament that make the laws. We do not live in a state where it is the divine right of kings to rule. It is subject to the will of Parliament, and Parliament therefore has to decide on these matters.

[Pete Wishart]

rose—

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

No, the question is so silly that it is not worth responding to again.

I do not believe there is any real appetite for change in England. My principal concern—I am sure it is shared right across the House, apart from by SNP Members—is the maintenance of the Union. I am a Conservative and Unionist. I believe profoundly in the Union. I went to Scotland—my wife went on holiday in the south of France, but I could not be out of the country when the future of my kingdom was at stake. I am a former Defence Minister and I believe that the repercussions for defence, had Scotland gone its own way, would have been catastrophic for England. England would have been diminished. I believe that we are enhanced as a nation by having Scotland as part of this great kingdom.

[Mr George Howarth]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I want to see the maintenance of the Union, but surely he must accept that the best way to make sure that the Union continues is to make sure that all the parts of it are content with the arrangements. I am afraid he is wrong; that is not the case at present.

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman. It is important—I was just coming on to make the point—that devolving further substantial powers to Scotland will, in my view, provoke a backlash from England. England has been pretty quiescent. Contrary to what many Scots feel, England is not concerned with what goes on in Scotland. It ploughs its own furrow. If there is not a sensible settlement, I believe that England will rise up. England otherwise gets on with its business, but if it feels that it is being dealt with unfairly, there will be a problem.

Something must be done to address the West Lothian question. I shall set out what I think may be the solution, but first I shall say what I do not want: a long drawn-out boring debate—[Interruption]—on some grand constitutional reconfiguration of the whole United Kingdom. I do not believe that that is what the nation wants or that it would serve us well as a nation.

[Mr MacNeil]

rose—

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

No. I have given way enough.

I do not want more regional government. My hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen) made the point about the situation in the north-east when a referendum was held there. I believe that still pertains. I certainly do not want the abolition of the House of Lords, which is currently the repository of much serious experience and wisdom. The creation of a ghastly senate with some sort of regional representation would do nothing to enhance the democratic accountability that we need in this country.

So what do I want? I want a simple solution. I have been persuaded up till now by the proposal of my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash), who suggested a change in Standing Orders so that Scottish Members of Parliament are unable to vote on matters which are determined to be solely of English concern. Again, points have been made, particularly by my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury, about the technicalities that would have to be dealt with in order to arrive at that situation. I quite accept that it could create a crisis, particularly for a Labour Government, for if a Labour Government came to office and their majority were determined by the number of Members of Parliament the party held in Scotland, the Government would be unable to get their legislation through. There is a constitutional issue which my hon. Friends should bear in mind, although it might in the short term be to our advantage.

The best solution is simply to reduce the number of Members of Parliament in Scotland to reflect their reduced responsibilities. That may be the price for maintaining the Union. I believe passionately in the Union and I believe we need to reach out and embrace Scotland. Scotland contributes so much to the United Kingdom. I want to retain Scotland and perhaps that will be the best way of doing it. Although it has been proposed that we should withhold cash from Scotland, I remind the House than when James VI of Scotland became James I of England, his progress from Scotland to London was accompanied by his being showered with gold by the English all the way through England.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) and those who sponsored his motion on their success in persuading the Backbench Business Committee that this was a suitable subject for debate. The extremely interesting, fascinating and lively debate we have had demonstrates that the Backbench Business Committee was probably right to choose it.

This is a topic of obvious relevance to all of us as we seek to adapt our unwritten constitution to meet the rapidly changing expectations of our constituents and yet ensure that the whole is coherent and greater than the sum of its parts. We must seek to do that in an era when much political endeavour is seen through a prism of coruscating cynicism and where genuine and open debate is hard to sustain. To counter that, it seems obvious to me that we must begin by delivering on our promises, which is why Labour believes very strongly that it is imperative that we deliver, to the agreed timetable, on the vow that all leaders of the main parties made to the people of Scotland just prior to the referendum.

Our amendment, which was not selected, notes that

“the commitment made by the Prime Minister, Deputy Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition to the continuation of the Barnett allocation of resources and full representation for Scottish MPs in the UK Parliament”

is equally important and needs to be borne in mind. The Prime Minister told the Liaison Committee this morning that reform of the Barnett formula was “not on the horizon” and that

“if you took all the extra money that Scotland gets from the Barnett formula and distributed it amongst the 55 million people in England, it’s not a pot of gold”.

He made the obvious assertion that 55 million English people do not get quite so big a share of the Barnett formula deliveries as 6 million Scottish people get. In essence, if the Barnett formula is reformed, the hope that England will somehow be full of all the things it needs is probably not an accurate view.

I have never been a conservative by instinct or, indeed, by any kind of inclination. I have long believed that the way in which this country is governed can be improved, and I think it can be improved significantly. Labour believes that the current system of governance for all the nations and regions of this country is far too centralised and not nearly democratic enough. We believe that we need a much more fundamental shift of power away from London and Whitehall, and we have a radical plan for spreading power and prosperity across the great towns, cities, regions and nations.

The following Labour Members have contributed to the debate: my right hon. Friends the Members for Knowsley (Mr Howarth), for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), and for Birkenhead (Mr Field), and my hon. Friends the Members for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz), for Dudley North (Ian Austin), for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray), for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart), for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain), for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie), for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) and, last but by no means least, for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott). There has been a consistent drum beat in favour of having more and better sharing of powers from the centre to the cities, counties, regions and nations of this country. We need to enhance real democratic involvement, not watch it diminish through reduced involvement and cynicism.

When the Hansard Society’s annual audit of political involvement shows that only 7% of people strongly believe that if they got involved in politics they could make a difference, and when voter turnout has been in decline, it is obvious that we need to act to bring forward profound change if we are to strengthen, reinvigorate and renew our democracy. But that action must not be some kind of partisan Westminster cooked-up insider fix, which is why we in the Labour party have called for a constitutional convention to be established to review and make recommendations in relation to future governance arrangements for the whole of the United Kingdom. We want to reverse a century of centralisation by devolving tens of billions of pounds of funding to the regions and local government. We also believe that proposals should be brought forward to replace the House of Lords with an elected senate of the nations and regions. We believe that there should be a new Scotland Act, but we also believe in an English devolution Act. If we form the next Government, we will bring both those things forward.

The advent of the Scottish referendum and the dramatic campaign it produced is a tribute to the power of lively democratic debate to banish complacency and galvanise politics as a whole. Little wonder that it has promoted not just the commitment to a further devolution of power to Scotland, but, as many have pointed out, a wider debate about political power in the whole of the UK—who has it and how they use it. I want to address specifically the further powers to be given to Scotland and I want then to set out Labour’s proposals for devolution for the rest of the UK. Finally, I want to talk about why it is important that we approach any conversation about constitutional change in a consensual and not a petty partisan way.

In September, the Scottish people, for the first time in their history, made the decision in a referendum to remain part of the United Kingdom, but they also voted for change, not the status quo. I spent some thought-provoking and exhausting days campaigning in Scotland to maintain the Union, and it was clear from the many people to whom I spoke that they simply were not satisfied with business as usual. The conversations I had emphasised the truth. For too long the Scottish people have felt disempowered and alienated from decisions taken in Westminster. But it struck me forcefully on those Scottish doorsteps that the alienation and the feeling of powerlessness would be mirrored on a great many English doorsteps too. I come across it wherever and whenever I knock on doors. The answer to it is a deeper, more meaningful democracy with more profound devolution across our nations. It is not the politics of separation, grievance and divisive nationalism.

Labour has led the way on devolution to the Scottish Parliament. We passed the Scotland Act 1998 and brought the Parliament into being, and I am glad that we are continuing to develop it now. The former Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), has set out a timetable for further devolution to Scotland, which is well on track. The three main parties all signed up to the vow that we will deliver change for Scotland. This is not and never has been in doubt.

The vow makes four key promises—promises that it is imperative that we uphold. Extensive new powers will be granted to the Scottish Parliament. The people of Scotland will be central to any decisions moving forwards. All four nations should be resourced fairly, and we will continue the Barnett allocation for resources. I want to restate Labour’s categorical assurance that in our first Queen’s speech we will have a new Scotland Act. We look forward to the report from Lord Smith of Kelvin, which I understand is expected next Thursday.

The result of the Scottish referendum will change our Union for the better. The Opposition are completely clear that we will keep our vow, made to the Scottish people on the eve of referendum. It is also clear that we now have a great opportunity to change the governance arrangements in the rest of the UK for the better, and it is that to which I now turn. It is right that we do not just consider further powers to Scotland in isolation from a wider crisis of trust that we are seeing in our politics across all four nations, and it was widely alluded to in many of today’s speeches. There are a number of reasons for this breakdown. The age of deference is long gone, thank goodness, but it is not welcome that it has been replaced by the age of contempt. All institutions have been affected by this breakdown in trust: Parliament, the Church, the police, the press—I could go on. We need to address that.

Globalisation has increased the feeling of powerlessness, and the view that supranational forces are more influential than national Governments makes it hard to persuade potential voters of the possibility of change at national level. The commercialised retail model of politics as a brand choice, rather than a contest of values, encourages passive consumer behaviour, rather than empowering potential voters to become actively involved. The way politics is carried on in Westminster is becoming increasingly incomprehensible to an electorate who are alienated, rather than charmed, by our arcane and quaint procedures.

It is clear that we need a radical plan for reform and change. That is why Labour has built on our proud tradition of constitutional reform, and has announced a comprehensive programme for change. We will deliver a new English deal, which will devolve over £30 billion to city and county regions. We will ensure that the Welsh model of devolution is on an equal footing with the Scottish, and will hold an unprecedented and wide-reaching constitutional convention, in order to have a conversation with all parts of our country about the change that we need if we are to modernise the way that we are governed. We will introduce regional investment banks; devolve powers to encourage economic development in cities, counties and regions; and ensure that skills, transport and the Work programme can be planned and delivered locally.

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

Can the hon. Lady tell us how long she expects this modest endeavour to take?

[Ms Eagle]

Does the hon. Gentleman mean the constitutional convention?

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

Yes.

[Ms Eagle]

We are already doing some pre-work, before the election. We want this to happen very quickly after the election, and want to be ready to come forward with some views after proper conversations with people from across the entire country. We are looking at models such as the Scottish constitutional convention and the Irish constitutional convention, which happened after the crash. There are good models out there that we can use to bring about a process that would give a new settlement the legitimacy it deserves. [Interruption.]

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

Can the right hon. Gentleman clear this up once and for all? The hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) said that the vow is not worth the paper it was written on because it was not agreed by Parliament. What is the right hon. Gentleman’s message to his Back Benchers? Is it that the vow is something that is promised and guaranteed or that, as the hon. Member for Aldershot says, it is not worth the paper it is written on?

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

rose—

[Mr Hague]

I will defend my hon. Friend, to save time. To be fair to him, he said that the SNP had called the vow a gimmick and now treat it as being of huge importance, which it is. [Interruption.] That was absolutely his argument.

The hon. Member for Moray said that he was speaking on behalf of 1.6 million people who voted yes. Actually, our duty in this House is to speak on behalf of, and consider the interests of, all 62 million people in the United Kingdom. When asked by Labour Members, he left some doubt as to whether the SNP will accept the outcome of the Smith commission. The rest of us made compromises on the basis that we will support the outcome of Smith.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans), who has had to leave, made the powerful point that in 1997, when he and I opposed devolution in Wales and it was carried by a very small majority, we accepted the result of the referendum and did everything possible to make the Welsh Assembly work in the interests of the people of Wales and to support the success of devolution in Wales. Nationalists seem to have an asymmetrical view of democracy, whereby if there is a referendum that confirms their view, it is for ever, and if there is a referendum that differs with their view, it is only a temporary thing before going on to the next one. It is time for a symmetrical view of democracy as well as more symmetrical democracy within the United Kingdom.

That brings me to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen), who said that he was against an English parliament. I agree with that, and I agree with those who have said—