Devolution and the Union

George Howarth Excerpts

Thursday 20th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)]

First, I thank the Backbench Business Committee for the opportunity to have this debate and the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) for introducing the subject. I want to discuss city regions and, specifically, the Liverpool city region, but first I wish to make two brief general points. The first, which is largely accepted across the political spectrum, is that there has been over-centralisation in the UK, as a result of which our city regions—and, some would argue, our counties—have underperformed on productivity, investment, value added and many other things. The second is that, without doubt, there is public disenchantment with the Westminster-Whitehall model and an appetite, certainly in my constituency and in my city region, to ask what we can do for ourselves and whether we can do it better than central Government and the Westminster-Whitehall model.

I now wish to discuss how the Liverpool city region could move towards a better model in terms of fiscal powers and additional powers that currently are either with central Government or with other bodies that are not directly democratically elected. On fiscal devolution, I wish to make two points. First, as a result of fiscal devolution there is a need to enable city regions to retain local investment and local taxation; local finance bonds offer potential, and it is necessary to remove the restrictions currently on local government and, in particular, on combined authorities in the work they can do to support growth. I will not labour the second point, but there needs to be greater flexibility on borrowing. When there is a big strategic reason, such bodies should not have to go cap in hand to central Government, but instead operate a more prudential system to determine what is right.

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

My right hon. Friend is making a persuasive argument. Does he agree that, constitutionally, the role of local or regional government needs to be safeguarded, so that central Government, both here and in Scotland, do not dictate the level of council tax or revenue raised by local authorities, thereby hemming in their ability to react to local demands?

[Mr Howarth]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Given what I have said, it follows logically that I do agree with that.

I was going to say a word in response to the hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) but she seems to have disappeared. [Hon. Members: “She has moved.”] Oh, I am sorry. She put forward an argument about the Barnett formula, but there is a different, less polarising way of expressing her points that actually supports her underlying argument. I do not personally—and neither, I am sure, do most colleagues, certainly on this side of the House—have any difficulty with the Barnett formula. What I want is a Barnett formula for England, or something equivalent, and others will make a strong case for something similar for Northern Ireland and Wales. The issue is how we get a fairer distribution of resources.

[Mrs Main]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Howarth]

I will not give way, because I have not got a lot of time, but I hope the hon. Lady will agree that what I am saying—

[Mrs Main]

indicated assent.

[Mr Howarth]

The hon. Lady nods in assent, as what we are saying is very much along the same lines; I just put it in a slightly different way. I think we need a better system of distributing resources, certainly to areas such as mine where the need is great yet is not currently being addressed.

I want to talk briefly about some of the powers. This is not an exhaustive list, but it suggests the sort of areas we could move forward on: innovation, research and development, housing, skills, employment support, infrastructure and, in the longer term, transport, policing, waste disposal and fire and rescue services. Those are the areas we should be, and indeed are, talking about.

I hope we can have this discussion out in the open. What slightly disturbs me is that there are a lot of discussions going on behind closed doors. We need an open discussion about this.

On the Liverpool city region, another issue that arises is what sort of leadership and accountability would be appropriate. There is an issue about whether we have an elected leader, or an elected metro-mayor as some seem to call it. The position that most of the leadership of the councils on Merseyside—and possibly the wider population—take, and which I share, is that we do not want to be prescriptive about this. The Chancellor made the point that there is no one-size-fits-all solution, and I agree, but quiet pressure is being applied behind closed doors, not least from Lord Heseltine, to go along a particular road.

As it happens, I personally would not rule out the possibility of having a directly elected mayor, but I do think it needs to be the subject of proper discussion, and I also believe that that discussion needs to take place out in the open, transparently and publicly, and that, if it goes that far, because this would be a big departure, some means of consulting the public about having an elected mayor should take place, and I personally would favour a referendum on that.

[Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

My right hon. Friend is putting forward a good case for the city region of Merseyside, and I think he and I would agree that the boundaries of such a region should not be drawn from here in Westminster. Equally, the leadership should not be determined from here in Westminster. Does he agree that whatever model evolves from the discussions, it is essential to get the support of the people behind it?

[Mr Howarth]

I agree with my hon. Friend, and I think I said as much. I believe that it would be sheer folly to impose a leadership and accountability system without first having the wholehearted support of the wider public.

My hon. Friend also raised a point about what the boundaries might be. At the moment, we are made up of Halton, St Helens, Sefton, Knowsley, Liverpool and the Wirral, but there is a wider appetite for this, certainly from West Lancashire, which is in a process of negotiating whether it wants to be part of the combined authority that already exists. There is also some interest from the west Cheshire local authority area—which my hon. Friend’s constituency is in—to see whether it might want to be part of it. It might even encompass, in the wake of what has happened in Manchester, Warrington. I am not making a land grab for any of those areas. It is for them to decide, but I do think that question should be on the table, and it should be something that can be discussed.

What was said of the Scottish referendum is also true for the whole of England: this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to get it right. It is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to shift the balance away from Westminster and Whitehall to local communities who know better what they want out of politics and what they want out of services. I hope we can get this right, but most of all I hope we can now have this discussion in the open and in public and not behind closed doors.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr George Howarth]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I want to see the maintenance of the Union, but surely he must accept that the best way to make sure that the Union continues is to make sure that all the parts of it are content with the arrangements. I am afraid he is wrong; that is not the case at present.

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman. It is important—I was just coming on to make the point—that devolving further substantial powers to Scotland will, in my view, provoke a backlash from England. England has been pretty quiescent. Contrary to what many Scots feel, England is not concerned with what goes on in Scotland. It ploughs its own furrow. If there is not a sensible settlement, I believe that England will rise up. England otherwise gets on with its business, but if it feels that it is being dealt with unfairly, there will be a problem.

Something must be done to address the West Lothian question. I shall set out what I think may be the solution, but first I shall say what I do not want: a long drawn-out boring debate—[Interruption]—on some grand constitutional reconfiguration of the whole United Kingdom. I do not believe that that is what the nation wants or that it would serve us well as a nation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

I will try to meet the five minutes deadline. I am pleased to join in this debate. When I first joined the House of Commons in 1979 I held the views that the hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) held. The world has changed dramatically since then, and this debate should much more accurately reflect those changes. So when the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) invited me to join him in calling for this debate, I jumped at the opportunity. Although on the Order Paper it is described as a debate about the consequences of Scottish devolution, for most of this House it is a debate about England.

My great fear has always been that for quite understandable reasons, for the protection of our privileges, Labour might seem to be wishing not to speak for England. If we are to have a life as a party, it is crucial that we are seen not to be joining the debate, but to be leading it. The worry is that if we protect privileges that may not be our privileges in the next Parliament anyway with a large representation of Scottish Labour Members in this House of Commons, we will increasingly be seen as a party of ghosts, representing a land that no longer exists. Therefore, I jumped at the opportunity to be a co-sponsor of this debate so that, as far as one can possibly ensure, there is a strong view from the Labour Benches—that has already been represented, particularly by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr Godsiff)—that this is an issue on which Labour wishes to lead. It will clutch it to its bosom and debate it constructively, given the results of the Scottish referendum.

I did not think we were in the position that the hon. Member for Aldershot was when he said that he feared that Scotland would go its own way. The truth is that Scotland is going its own way and we need to adjust to that. In doing so there are two big questions that we, as English Members, must answer in a way that is not spiteful or mean and which does not try to trip Scottish Members up. We need to see that they prosper as we wish to prosper ourselves.

One of those two questions is the West Lothian question and the other concerns the Barnett formula. There are siren voices that have been active in this debate since 1977, telling us that we cannot move on constitutional changes unless we have mega conventions to debate the issues. It is quite clear now what the constitutional settlement will be, whether we in this Chamber like it or not. There are going to be four Parliaments, where England has its voice, Scotland has its voice, Wales has its voice and Northern Ireland has its voice. Although some might object to the name senate, there will be a House of Lords much reduced in size and called a senate, which will have the responsibility of protecting the liberties of the four constituent Parliaments and dealing with those matters not delegated to those Parliaments. Only by having such an arrangement can we honestly stand up and say that we have settled the West Lothian question. Some might say that that will somehow create inequality of Members of Parliament, but we have inequality of Members of Parliament now. I cannot vote on some Scottish matters, but Scottish Members can vote on English matters.

The second issue is clearly the Barnett formula. It was interesting that the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson), who led for the Scottish nationalists, would not say when Scotland would return to demand total independence. His phrase was, “It is up to the people.” Scottish Members must understand that while the Prime Minister and the leaders of all the parties may in good faith have said that they will defend the Barnett formula, the next Parliament, which will have a much clearer English identity than this Parliament has, may not wish to honour those pledges.

The starting point for that debate is as follows. Whatever the complications of the formula are, it is totally unacceptable that the poor in my constituency should be less well supported than the poor in Scottish constituencies, let alone the richest people in Scottish constituencies. While of course I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth), we do not have to have one or the other. We will have English Parliaments, but we will also see a delegation to the great city regions of England. They are not incompatible.

[Mr George Howarth]

I think my right hon. Friend has answered my question. We could still get all those disparities within England, and the question is how to address that.

[Mr Field]

Clearly, the debate about the Barnett formula has to be comprehensive. It has to take up all forms of support and from different sources. At the end of that we must come to a conclusion that we can all defend to our constituents, whichever part of the four countries we try to represent. That debate will take place. It might be called the Barnett formula. That is where the time will be consumed. The time will not be consumed in deciding what the constitutional settlement is, now that Scotland has, in effect, got the independence it wished for.