Devolution and the Union

Angus Brendan MacNeil Excerpts

Thursday 20th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House recognises the outcome of the referendum on Scottish independence; welcomes the freely expressed will of the people of Scotland to remain British; notes the proposals announced by Westminster party leaders for further devolution to Scotland; calls on the Government and Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition to bring forward proposals that are fair and reasonable for the whole of the United Kingdom, following a period of public consultation to enable people in all parts of the Union to express their views; and, in particular, calls on the Government to ensure such proposals include a review of the Barnett formula and legislative proposals to address the West Lothian question.

I begin by thanking the Backbench Business Committee and its formidable Chair, the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), who is not in her place today, for the opportunity to have this debate. I would also like to thank the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) for making common cause in co-sponsoring the debate and the motion. I thank, too, the 81 hon. Members from four parties who signed in support of the motion.

The great Scottish inventor of the telephone, Alexander Graham Bell, coined the phrase:

“When one door closes, another opens”.

For my part, I thoroughly welcome the outcome of the Scottish referendum and the decision of the Scottish people to remain part of the United Kingdom, but I also recognise—I say this at the outset—the division and the divide it has left north of the border and the consequences that need to be picked up south of the border. In the spirit of Bell, I want to focus on the positive opportunities ahead—opportunities to give greater expression to the Scottish desire for self-determination short of secession, and indeed opportunities for a wider democratic renaissance across the whole of the United Kingdom.

In truth, we have made some progress under the coalition. As a result of the Scotland Act 2012, the Scottish Government will raise around 30%—up from 14%—of their own tax revenue. All parties now pledge further tax-raising powers and greater control over social security. I say to those representing Scottish seats who want further devolution beyond the current consensus that I am rather sympathetic, and I will look at and listen to their ideas with an open and sympathetic mind.

Of course, beyond the UK, devo-max, as it is termed, can draw on a variety of federal models, including those of Germany, Canada and even Spain. Scottish National party Members and others will have noted that this would take us well beyond what was promised in the vow of the main party leaders in the Daily Record on 16 September.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

The hon. Gentleman’s party leader, the Prime Minister, said during the referendum campaign that everything was possible and all was on the table. Does the hon. Gentleman disagree with that?

[Mr Raab]

This may be the easiest intervention I get today, but I do agree that everything is on the table and that everything is possible. In fact, if the hon. Gentleman listens closely as I develop my speech, he will find that I am rather sympathetic to taking further steps toward financial devolution, which the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues have proposed.

Equally, there needs to be recognition that with greater financial freedom and power, Scotland must expect to bear some additional responsibility. I am sure that as a matter of principle—regardless of the practicalities—all hon. Members would agree with that. A new deal for Britain must be fair to all parts of Britain. In my view, that means two things. First, if we went down the road of devo-max or fuller financial devolution, it would eventually render utterly untenable the Barnett formula used by the UK Government to subsidise the devolved Administrations. That formula is based on outdated spending patterns and population numbers and is already divorced from any objective assessment of real need across Britain. If Scotland now wants greater powers to tax and spend—as I said, I am sympathetic to that—it cannot expect the Union and taxpayers across the Union to keep subsidising them to the hilt on such an arbitrary basis, without fuelling resentment in other parts of the UK. I note that that is also the logic of the SNP submission to the Smith review. I have it here and will happily read it later.

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[Mr Raab]

My hon. Friend—who chairs the Health Committee—is absolutely right, as usual. We must all agree that an accident of geography cannot mean that the voices and the needs of the elderly, the vulnerable, and NHS patients somehow count for less.

[Mr MacNeil]

Let me say something instructive to the hon. Gentleman. He has mentioned subsidies for Scotland a couple of times. If he is going to talk about subsidies, he should understand that referring to expenditure in Scotland in terms of the Barnett formula is cherry-picking. It represents only two thirds of spending, and that is just identified spending: there is another third of non-identified spending. Talking about the Barnett formula is a trick used by Tories and Labour Members to suggest that certain moneys are spent in Scotland. They are not talking about the whole pie; they are talking about two thirds of the pie. That is the trick.

[Mr Raab]

If the Barnett formula is not subsidising Scotland to the degree that concerns some of us, why is the SNP so averse to any review of it, let alone change? However, as was pointed out by the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz), this is not just about the Barnett formula. The second price of further devolution must be steps to bridge the democratic deficit between Scotland and the rest of the Union. As in the case of the Barnett formula, south of the border it smarts that Scottish MPs in Parliament still vote on matters concerning England—from social care to school reforms—that in Scotland have been devolved to the Scottish Government.

There are various ways in which we could address the so-called West Lothian question. Others will have different views, but I believe that, as a minimum, any new legislation should implement the common-sense plan presented in 2008 by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) to restrict Scottish MPs from legislating at Westminster in Committee and on Report on issues that do not affect Scotland. I suspect that, far from creating deadlock—which is what has been put about—that would lead to a rather healthy spirit of compromise. A United Kingdom Government who were reliant on Scottish MPs would retain the power of initiative, and England would have a democratic shield to prevent such a Government from imposing their will on it without consent.

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[Mrs Main]

The hon. Lady makes an interesting point, and I am certain that there would be no reason why, if the motion is carried today, everything could not be on the table for discussion. It would be up to her to make her case, but I think that what she describes is very different from what the hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green was suggesting, which was that we have to split up the whole of the Union into little tranches of competences. It would be unrealistic, and it would certainly result in a democratic deficit, to suggest that people in Scotland can have grabbed power for themselves, and rightly want to use it, but resist giving away any of their powers in this place. I know it suits the Labour party to try to keep those powers, but we have to make the case that it is not reasonable and not fair.

Lord Barnett has said the following about the Barnett formula:

“It is unfair and should be stopped, it is a mistake. This way is terrible and can never be sustainable, it is a national embarrassment and personally embarrassing to me as well.”

I do not believe we should scrap the Barnett formula, but we should certainly review it, and whatever comes out of that would be done with the will of the House. Far less money is spent on my constituents and I find it hard to justify to them that in my constituency, which contains areas of multiple deprivation, people get some 11% less than the UK average, 23% less than Scotland gets and 28% less than Northern Ireland gets.

[Mr MacNeil]

rose—

[Mrs Main]

I will not give way. I am sure that many MPs on the Benches around the hon. Gentleman want to make the case for the Scottish National party.

Because of the flaws I am outlining—[Interruption.] My constituency is not in London. St Albans is in a county above London, and we are not part of the London development system up there, but we have to pay a high price for our properties. My constituents do not understand why they are net contributors to the Chancellor’s coffers and do so badly when they are trying to get services—

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[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

I am delighted that the motion is before the House and I would like to address two particular issues: spending disparities across the UK and the vexed issue of how to implement English votes for English laws. Before the recent referendum, party leaders promised a continuation of the Barnett formula and the powers of the Scottish Parliament to raise revenue. It is vital, if the integrity of political leaders is to be respected and believed, to take this promise to the Scottish people seriously and to work within the confines of the Barnett formula arrangement.

To say that the debate about the referendum did not make people across the United Kingdom think very carefully about the fairness of the allocation of resources is to miss the point considerably. The Barnett formula is just one aspect of the wider question of spending disparities across the UK.

[Mr MacNeil]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

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[John Glen]

If the hon. Gentleman can contain his anger and listen to what I have to say, he will notice that I have not mentioned the word subsidies. It is he who keeps mentioning subsidy, and it is not in my speech—[Hon. Members: “The hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) did!”] But I have not and I will not.

To have an informed debate about funding reform, we need to think carefully about why the disparities exist. Some exist for reasonable historical reasons. However, differences in health spending, for example, due to different demographics and sparsity issues need to be fully examined and we must have a national debate on them. It is right to say that the case needs to be made for each significant disparity. The whole referendum debate has provoked a discussion in this country and we need to address it.

[Mr MacNeil]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[John Glen]

No, I am going to continue with my speech.

That cannot be done on the basis of one short-term fix. In the next Parliament, the Government should establish a fair funding commission that would look comprehensively at the distribution of spending across all Government Departments over all regions and all aspects of that distribution. It could clearly take into account economic geography, a consistent definition of sparsity, demographic inequalities and historical differences in funding settlements. I believe that it would then quickly become clear that the distribution of taxpayers’ money is complex and that some proposals to deal with spending disparities are too simplistic. Fiscal devolution at a national level is not sufficient by itself. Some residents in Wales might use NHS services across the border in Herefordshire, for example, and vice versa, and it is important that we take account of such scenarios.

We also need to recognise the tension between the needs of metropolitan and rural communities, which particularly concerns my constituents in Salisbury. A fair funding commission would allow us to make mature, long-term decisions about funding levels based on comprehensive data and an appreciation of all the relevant factors across the whole United Kingdom. A wide range of options for reform would be available, including reviewing the baseline for formulas or introducing a fair funding consolidated grant.

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[Sir Gerald Howarth]

I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman. It is important—I was just coming on to make the point—that devolving further substantial powers to Scotland will, in my view, provoke a backlash from England. England has been pretty quiescent. Contrary to what many Scots feel, England is not concerned with what goes on in Scotland. It ploughs its own furrow. If there is not a sensible settlement, I believe that England will rise up. England otherwise gets on with its business, but if it feels that it is being dealt with unfairly, there will be a problem.

Something must be done to address the West Lothian question. I shall set out what I think may be the solution, but first I shall say what I do not want: a long drawn-out boring debate—[Interruption]—on some grand constitutional reconfiguration of the whole United Kingdom. I do not believe that that is what the nation wants or that it would serve us well as a nation.

[Mr MacNeil]

rose—

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

No. I have given way enough.

I do not want more regional government. My hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen) made the point about the situation in the north-east when a referendum was held there. I believe that still pertains. I certainly do not want the abolition of the House of Lords, which is currently the repository of much serious experience and wisdom. The creation of a ghastly senate with some sort of regional representation would do nothing to enhance the democratic accountability that we need in this country.

So what do I want? I want a simple solution. I have been persuaded up till now by the proposal of my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash), who suggested a change in Standing Orders so that Scottish Members of Parliament are unable to vote on matters which are determined to be solely of English concern. Again, points have been made, particularly by my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury, about the technicalities that would have to be dealt with in order to arrive at that situation. I quite accept that it could create a crisis, particularly for a Labour Government, for if a Labour Government came to office and their majority were determined by the number of Members of Parliament the party held in Scotland, the Government would be unable to get their legislation through. There is a constitutional issue which my hon. Friends should bear in mind, although it might in the short term be to our advantage.

The best solution is simply to reduce the number of Members of Parliament in Scotland to reflect their reduced responsibilities. That may be the price for maintaining the Union. I believe passionately in the Union and I believe we need to reach out and embrace Scotland. Scotland contributes so much to the United Kingdom. I want to retain Scotland and perhaps that will be the best way of doing it. Although it has been proposed that we should withhold cash from Scotland, I remind the House than when James VI of Scotland became James I of England, his progress from Scotland to London was accompanied by his being showered with gold by the English all the way through England.

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[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

This debate has settled on three issues: the Barnett formula, more powers for Westminster, and, of course, the famous vow.

[Sir Robert Smith]

The hon. Gentleman makes the important point that the commitments made by leaders in the referendum played a part in its result and need to be honoured. To that extent, will he say to his new leader that she should honour the commitment made by her predecessor that this was a once-in-a-lifetime referendum, and that no means no?

[Mr MacNeil]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for intervening before I made any points, because he has allowed me to say something that I had forgotten to include in my speech. He mentioned the “once in a generation” quote, but I think that must be seen in context—[Interruption.] I encourage the scoffing hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) to do the same, and to look on YouTube where he will find an interview between Jeremy Paxman and Alex Salmond from seven years ago. Mr Salmond was asked whether a referendum would be a once-in-a-generation event, or whatever, and he said that the referendum would either be once in a generation or when there was another electoral mandate for one. He was very clear on that. He said that in his view it should be once in a generation—[Interruption.] Again, Labour Members do not want to hear the truth; they want to invent their own history, and I encourage the hon. Gentleman to look at YouTube because it is clear. Alex Salmond said that a referendum would be dependent on another electoral mandate. He could not bind the hands of the Scottish National party or—more importantly—the wishes of the Scottish people. The next referendum will be when the Scottish people want one, and I hope the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith) will be a decent enough democrat to accept that point. I am sure he will when he reflects on it, as will the scoffing Members on the Labour Front Bench.

[Mr Frank Field]

Whatever YouTube shows, the Scottish people will make decisions when they want to make decisions. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that after the next election, whatever has been promised, this Parliament may wish to make progress on the Barnett formula?

[Mr MacNeil]

I agree with that but I point out to the right hon. Gentleman that after the next election, according to current opinion polls—indeed, going by stories in the Daily Record of all places—the complexion and make-up of this Parliament will be very changed.

[Thomas Docherty]

rose—

[Mr MacNeil]

I will make some progress and then I will give way—[Hon. Members: “Ahh!] My goodness. I have given way to two people. Labour Members, who are asleep during Labour speeches, wake up when the SNP speaks.

[Thomas Docherty]

Does the hon. Gentleman recall that on 14 September, four days before the referendum, Alex Salmond said, “This is a once-in-a-generation referendum”?

[Mr MacNeil]

No, I do not recall that—[Interruption.] I don’t! But again, that should be seen in the context of whether there is a new electoral mandate or other trigger points. It is quite simple and I explained it in response to the first intervention. The hon. Gentleman has delayed progress in the Chamber by making a fatuous intervention that I had already addressed. Let me get back on track and away from the hon. Gentleman’s diversions.

On the Barnett formula—I address the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) with this point—it must be remembered that London has the greatest per capita payment and highest Barnett spend, with Northern Ireland in second place. That, too, must be understood in context. When people talk about Barnett spending, they mean identifiable spending, which is about two thirds of the spending round pie. There is also non-identifiable spending such as defence, which is concentrated in the south of England. The UK Government seem unable to tell us where defence spending is spent—they used to, but it became a political hot potato. By contrast, the United States of America can list non-identifiable spending not only at state level but at county level, although it seems beyond the wit of the UK Government to identify down to that point.

[Mr Raab]

Given all the complications, cloud, and smoke and mirrors that the hon. Gentleman is articulating, does that not strengthen the argument for a review of the Barnett formula and the implications for financial spending and responsibility across the nation?

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[Mr MacNeil]

The review we are looking for, in the context of the Barnett formula, is one with full fiscal autonomy for Scotland where we are rid of these interminable rows and where Scotland spends what Scotland earns. The big point is that Scotland is a wealthy nation that has, each and every year for the past 33 years, provided more tax revenue than the UK average to the Treasury and the Exchequer at Westminster. Members overlook that point.

[Mr Raab]

rose—

[Mr MacNeil]

I am really sorry, but I have been too generous in giving way. Members overlook that point when they talk about the Barnett formula, and the hon. Gentleman may want to come back to it in his summing up.

Like it or not—the hon. Members for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) and for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) did not like it—the big jumping off point is now the vow. Whether Tory or Labour Back Benchers like it or not, that is the truth of the matter. The vow must be seen in the context of what was happening at the time it was made. On 10 September, the Prime Minister said:

“If Scotland says it does want to stay inside the United Kingdom, then all options of devolution are there, and all are possible.”

The right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), the former Prime Minister—Gordon Brown, for those at home watching who might not be absolutely certain who I mean—said:

“The purpose of the Scottish Parliament should be to use the maximum devolution possible”.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. We do not usually use a Member’s name, certainly when he is not informed of any discussion that may take place. I am sure the hon. Gentleman would not have done that on purpose.

[Mr MacNeil]

I am always delighted to follow your guidance, Mr Deputy Speaker. If they want to strike it from the record they can. I was trying to make a wider communication point, but I understand and respect what you are saying.

The vow was surrounded by those remarks and the vow ended the option of the status quo; it moved the argument on. The muddle, of course, is what is meant by the vow. In this Chamber, I asked the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath whether, when he signed up to the vow, he knew what he was signing up to. My suspicion, after the Downing street EVEL declaration on the morning after the referendum, is that he was duped. He will know whether he was or not.

I am not sure what the three amigos meant by the vow when they signed up to it on the front page of the Daily Record. The “three amigos” is the collective name in Scotland for the leaders of the Labour, Liberal and Conservative parties—they are seen as much of a muchness. [Interruption.] There they go—the cackling starts again. I suspect that before the referendum the vow meant anything at all to keep Scotland within the Union. After 18 September, they meant it to mean as little as it possibly could.

On the Smith commission, we know what the Scottish people want: they want Scotland’s Parliament to control many areas of policy. Polls show that they not only support the Scottish National party; they support income tax, corporate tax, welfare and benefits, and pensions being dealt with in the Scottish Parliament. If the Smith commission fails the people’s hopes, the polls show that people well understand who the champions of Scotland are and who will put Scotland first. That is why the SNP has between 45% and 59% support in the polls. The complexion of this Parliament will change next May as a result. There are many trigger points that could cause a new, second independence referendum in Scotland. One is an exit from the EU. Another—the most likely—is the demand of the Scottish people for power to go to their Parliament to change their lives, their communities, their families and their neighbourhoods.

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[Ian Murray]

I knew that would be a waste of an intervention. Many Scottish Members want to speak, but the behaviour of the SNP today has been appalling. I wish it would engage with this issue.

People want politicians elected to represent them to talk about the things they tell us about, and we have listened to the Scottish people. SNP Members might not believe it, but it was a no vote. Their own leader said that would be it for a generation, yet they have even been talking about unilateral declarations of independence. The people have spoken, and politicians must listen. The Smith commission’s recommendations will be out next Thursday and will be implemented as per the plan. That was the vow to the Scottish people, and it will be followed through. It is part of a variety of devolution measures that this party has delivered and which are still to come.

[Mr MacNeil]

rose—

[Ian Murray]

I will not give way because I want other Members to speak and time is ticking on.

A constitutional convention would deal with all these issues, alongside devolving £30 billion to the English regions, reforming the House of Lords and turning it into a regional senate, and further devolution for Wales.

These are important debates. We should have more Government time in which to explore these issues properly, but it is clear that the devolution vow and promise made to Scotland will be carried through—separately from all these other issues about English votes and devolution elsewhere in the United Kingdom. This is a view for the whole of the UK and we should do it on that—

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[Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)]

Let me pour a bit of oil on this heated debate and remind us of its title, “Devolution and the Union”. All of us bring to these debates some personal experience. For the first 18 years of my life, I lived in a federal state, not in a union. Those who talk about federalism need to be reminded of just what it means. I also spent 18 months on a constitutional convention, so I know what that means, too.

Let us consider three terms. First, what does devolution mean? No one could argue that Labour has not been the architect of genuine devolution within these British Isles. In many ways, the one piece of unfinished business has been devolution in England outside London. We must reflect on that, because we cannot have devolution in the constituent parts of the United Kingdom unless there has been proper devolution in the largest part of that United Kingdom.

The second issue, a puzzling one, arises when we talk about money. I think we have completely forgotten the purpose of transfer payments. The centre collects money in order to redistribute it to the regions according to need. That is the nature of our Union. It is not a vehicle for increasing separatism and it is not a vehicle for increasing special pleading: it is a vehicle of unity, a vehicle of bringing disparate parts together in a fair and proper manner.

The third issue is how our electorates in a United Kingdom and a Union relate to that. What I find really troubling about this whole debate is that those who are strong advocates for devolution sometimes use it as a means of breaking up the Union. If people do not want a Union and they want federalism, they should be clear about what that would mean. As a structure in which one part is disproportionately larger than the others, federalism does not work. People say, “Isn’t it great how Germany works as a federal state?”, but speaking as a German who grew up in Germany, let me remind the House that the only time federalism worked in Germany was after Prussia had been broken up. I would not recommend the Prussian model as one to follow. If people want to follow it, okay, but they should be very cautious.

Federalism in the UK would be deeply divisive. The rest of Europe looks at the model of the Union in the UK as something that this country got to a couple of hundred years before everybody else did, and they admire and envy us for having done so. I find it quite extraordinary that some are trying to go back on that. Let us remind ourselves that the transfer of money is in order to represent the United Kingdom as a Union—

[Mr MacNeil]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Ms Stuart]

I am reluctant to do so. I found the hon. Gentleman’s speech irritating because he was so ill-tempered and ill-informed. If he promises to make an informed and well-tempered intervention, I will allow it.

[Mr MacNeil]

I promise the hon. Lady that if my speech appeared like that, it was because of the barracking and level of discourtesy I had to deal with from Labour Members. I apologise to her, and doubtless she would want to apologise for her colleagues. She talks of money transfers, so let me ask her in which direction she thinks these transfers are going.

[Ms Stuart]

When my children used to behave badly, they blamed their big brother, but it always takes two to pick a fight. I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman was too big and too grown up to be goaded by anyone, so let us come back to the transfer, which is what we are arguing about at this stage. It does not matter what we call it. I have to say that the impetuous behaviour of the Prime Minister after the referendum brought about much of this trouble, and I wish that he had been a little more grown up and reflective.

Arguments about money involve equal and fair distribution and democratic representation. Scotland had a referendum, for the second time in my lifetime. Some Members may be too young to remember the first referendum, but I do. This is the second occasion on which the Scottish people have spoken decisively on where they wish to be. There must come a point at which we must simply accept what the people have said.

I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) that devolution in England outside London is unfinished business. I think that we must look much more closely at taxation powers for the city regions. Ultimately, however, when we argue about money, we should bear in mind the fact that it should be used as a mechanism to bring people together and to bring greater fairness. It should not be used as the divisive mechanism for which I think some Members are currently trying to argue, because that would be a very, very bad way of going about things.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

I want to speak on behalf of a group in my party that is little heard of, but involves a long tradition of support for home rule for Wales. It goes back to the time of Keir Hardie, who represented a Welsh constituency. For me, it goes back to the time in 1953 when, as an 18-year-old schoolboy, I marched through Cardiff with a plaid Lafur—Labour party—banner reading “Senedd i Gymru”: “A Parliament for Wales”. That strand has always been there in the party, although it has not always been dominant. It is, to me, a cause for celebration and pride that, after all the generations that have come from Wales for the last 100 years promising devolution and home rule, I had the chance to be here when we delivered on that. It may not be a full Parliament—perhaps it should be described as half a Parliament—but it is a developing Parliament.

I stand here as someone who, for various reasons, has had a lifelong commitment to home rule. I believe that there is a stronger personality in Wales than in almost any other area. We are aware of the distinctive characteristics of other areas, but we have an ancient language—a 2,000-year-old language. In my constituency 2,000 years ago, the children who were intra muros, within the boundaries of Caerleon, spoke Latin, while those who were ultra muros, outside the walls, spoke Welsh. They still do—not all of them, but Welsh is still heard on the lips of the children, although we do not hear a great deal of Latin nowadays. That says something about the resilience of the language.

When István Széchenyi, a litterateur from Hungary, was asked “Where is the nation? Where do you find it? Where do you look?” , he replied:

“A nation lives in her language.”

All the wisdom, all the hurt and all the folklore of our nation echoes down the centuries in our distinctive language, and, to our great pride, it is now being spoken by more people than at any time in history. Every child in Wales has a chance to learn some Welsh, and many learn it and become fluent. The roots of a great renaissance of Welsh personality and character is there.

It is crucial that we have political institutions. Someone suggested that Carwyn Jones had never expressed a commitment to a constitutional convention. I am one of those who slave away on the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, and anyone who delves into our fascinating, page-turning reports will find that we have to go through the delicate process of building up a constitution. However, I think that we are being a little unambitious in suggesting that there might be four Assemblies. I have been very surprised by the extraordinary change in the Republic of Ireland following a visit by the Queen, who put on a green dress and stood in Croke park, bowing her head in penitence. A century of antagonism has not melted away, but it has certainly softened a great deal. I can see a possibility that within, say, 20 years there will be a federal system in which we can all join.

It was suggested in The Guardian this morning that the next Head of State—

[Mr MacNeil]

rose—

[Paul Flynn]

Does the hon. Gentleman wish to intervene?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Members should address the Chair. The last two speakers have felt the need to face in the opposite direction rather than facing the Chair. I think that the hon. Gentleman wishes to give way to the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil). I hope that Members will address each other through the Chair from now on.

[Mr MacNeil]

The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) is making a thoughtful speech. Does he think that the Republic of Ireland would have had the same success without the powers that it now has under independence, or what we might call total devolution? Does he think that those powers have contributed greatly to what Ireland has now?

[Paul Flynn]

I shall tread carefully here. I do not want to get involved in the Scottish situation, on which we remained silent throughout the referendum. Members of my family were in the Irish Anti-Partition League and in Sinn Fein in the 1920s. All those divisions were there, although of course we hope that they will come to an end. That has certainly been part of the history of these islands, and we should rejoice at what has in many ways been a happy outcome for Ireland, after the misery and suffering of previous centuries.

We are now in a delicate position, because what happened in Scotland is having repercussions. The vow must be respected. There is no question of turning back on that; if we do, there will be a wave of cynicism from Scotland and elsewhere. No referendum solves everything; it is never a final moment. I recall the 1975 referendum on Europe, which hardly settled things in that regard. The entrenched opinions became more deeply entrenched, and that continues to this day, with people still feeling dissatisfied with the result.

In Wales, there was a tiny majority in favour of devolution in 1997, but the next time a vote was held, 65% of the vote was in favour. Huge changes are taking place. When we campaigned for a Welsh Assembly, there were those who said that we were on a slippery slope. Some were against devolution because it represented a slippery slope towards more independence in Wales; others supported it because they were in favour of just such a slippery slope. If there is one certain way of ensuring the break-up of the United Kingdom, it is to arouse the sleeping giant of English nationalism. We have heard about this today, and as the antagonism—

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[Mr Hague]

I will defend my hon. Friend, to save time. To be fair to him, he said that the SNP had called the vow a gimmick and now treat it as being of huge importance, which it is. [Interruption.] That was absolutely his argument.

The hon. Member for Moray said that he was speaking on behalf of 1.6 million people who voted yes. Actually, our duty in this House is to speak on behalf of, and consider the interests of, all 62 million people in the United Kingdom. When asked by Labour Members, he left some doubt as to whether the SNP will accept the outcome of the Smith commission. The rest of us made compromises on the basis that we will support the outcome of Smith.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans), who has had to leave, made the powerful point that in 1997, when he and I opposed devolution in Wales and it was carried by a very small majority, we accepted the result of the referendum and did everything possible to make the Welsh Assembly work in the interests of the people of Wales and to support the success of devolution in Wales. Nationalists seem to have an asymmetrical view of democracy, whereby if there is a referendum that confirms their view, it is for ever, and if there is a referendum that differs with their view, it is only a temporary thing before going on to the next one. It is time for a symmetrical view of democracy as well as more symmetrical democracy within the United Kingdom.

That brings me to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen), who said that he was against an English parliament. I agree with that, and I agree with those who have said—

[Mr MacNeil]

rose—

[Mr Hague]

I will not give way again because I have only a few minutes before I must let my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton speak.

I agree with those who have opposed a federal system for the United Kingdom, because the United Kingdom does not lend itself to a federal structure. Therefore, we have to find our own answer to what we have always called the West Lothian question. This debate goes wider than votes in this House, as the shadow Leader of the House said, but it does include votes in this House. That is something that we have to address, and in the coming months, we must make specific proposals to do so.

Various commissions have worked on the issue over recent years. There was the Norton commission that I established within the Conservative party. There was the democracy taskforce of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke). There was the McKay commission, which set out the important principle, to which the Prime Minister referred at the Liaison Committee this morning, that

“decisions at the United Kingdom level with a separate and distinct effect for England (or for England-and-Wales) should normally be taken only with the consent of a majority of MPs for constituencies in England (or England-and-Wales).”

Although there are many different ways of implementing that principle, it will be important to do so. Refusing to face up to that would be the true “insider fix”, because the great majority of the people of the United Kingdom expect some such principle to be implemented and adopted.

The hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) said that it was time for England to come to the devolution party. I agree, although I think he was unkind to the Prime Minister in saying that there was a lack of urgency. There is a great sense of urgency in the Government in taking forward decentralisation to cities and other localities, and in addressing the West Lothian question as well.

My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot proposed the idea of reducing the number of MPs from Scotland and Wales. I do not agree with that opinion. It is important to address the issue in other ways, and I do not think that they should be reduced below their proportionate representation in the House.

I will not have time to go through all the hon. Members who have spoken. The hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin), who is not in his place, made the case for a Minister for the west midlands, largely on the basis that he would be the Minister for the west midlands. I think we have now moved past that idea to address the issue in new ways. The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) made the case for the importance of languages. He can be assured that the Welsh language lives very strongly in the family I have married into, and I am extremely conscious of that.

If I may finish on the question of Wales, it is important for Wales to play its full part in the greater decentralisation and devolution. The Secretary of State for Wales has made it clear that he wants to hear views from across the political spectrum in Wales on the best way forward. He has begun discussions with the leaders of the Welsh parties with a view to building consensus.

These issues now have to be addressed and resolved in a way that is fair to the whole of the United Kingdom. We are absolutely committed to the timetable for Scotland and we are committed to further powers for Wales and on the special needs of Northern Ireland, but we cannot ignore the needs and the rights of England. Being fair to all is now our mission.