Rail Franchising

Geraint Davies Excerpts

Wednesday 10th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

In this country, under Governments of both persuasions, we have taken decisions about the right balance between the cost of the railways being borne by those who use the railways and those who do not. Yes, the hon. Gentleman may be quoting walk -up fares, but he can go and buy an advance ticket for the east coast route at a fraction of the cost that he described.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

rose—

[Chris Grayling]

I am going to make some progress now, I am afraid, because the shadow Secretary of State asked a variety of questions about the east coast main line and I want to respond.

The reality is that sometimes the private companies get it wrong. The situation on the east coast franchise is a clear example. Virgin and Stagecoach overbid, and they are paying, and will pay, the price. I repeat—they will pay the price.

I have listened with interest to some of the ill-informed comments about the situation on the east coast line in the past few weeks. I have heard some absurd claims from people who do not understand what they are talking about. So let me explain to the House what the position is. I am not agreeing to early termination of a contract in 2020; no one has asked me to. This railway is paying a huge premium to the taxpayer and continues to do so, but the issue is that this franchise is not delivering the profits the operator expected and is at risk of not making it as far as 2020.

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[Chris Grayling]

That is simply untrue. The re-letting of the Wales and the borders franchise is being handled entirely by the Welsh Government. The interesting question is whether they are actually going to be able to deliver on their promises to electrify the Cardiff valley lines, the infrastructure of which I have given them as well. They have been given the opportunity to create an integrated metro railway for Cardiff, and I will be interested to see whether they can deliver what they have promised. They have control over the Wales and the borders franchise. The only power I have retained is to make sure that we look after the interests of people on the English side of the border. I am afraid the hon. Gentleman is just not right.

[Geraint Davies]

Has the Secretary of State seen, as he has mentioned this area, the proposals made by Professor Mark Barry for an electrified Swansea metro, which, through straightening the line, would reduce by half the time it takes to travel from Cardiff to Swansea? Implementing those proposals would provide the electrification David Cameron promised, an integrated Swansea metro and a shorter journey time.

[Chris Grayling]

I have not seen those proposals, but I say to the hon. Gentleman that I think it more likely than not that we will see on the Welsh valley lines and the Cardiff metro lines the same approach that I have taken in south Wales—using hybrid technology rather than electrification. That is what I think will be done.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Geraint Davies Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons & Ways and Means resolution: House of Commons
Monday 23rd October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hayes]

Yes. I will not amplify that extremely well-made point except to say that my hon. Friend is right that each of the three objections cited are likely to be dealt with, in one way or another, over time. Some will be dealt with by the industry concerned, some will be dealt with by changing market circumstances and some will be dealt with by the sagacious and pertinent behaviour of the Government. It is with both sagacity and pertinence that I will now continue my short—some may say, all too short—introduction to the Bill. Some may not actually say that, but I prefer to side with those who do, so let me continue.

We certainly need to improve the UK’s charging infrastructure to ensure that we remain at the forefront of these developments into the future. Hon. Members will know that, as we have begun to debate tonight, the Government have set the goal that nearly all cars and vans should be emission-free at the tailpipe by 2050. That means less pollution and more clean air. I am disappointed that the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) is not in the Chamber because I was going to say that this is not about a preoccupation with some high-flown theory about what the climate may look like in hundreds of years’ time. It is about having clean air now—the air our children are breathing in cities—and the particular material that affects human health day in, day out. That is why it is imperative we take action, and we are determined to do so. I am not prepared to have my sons, who are in the Gallery tonight, breathing air that is less clean than it ought to be. I want the same for them as I want for every other young person: to live in a cleaner world with fresher air, which is better for their health and their futures.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I welcome the Minister’s words. On the priorities for the charging infrastructure, will he confirm that the focus is on shopping centres and other places where people naturally leave their cars for a considerable time, not just petrol stations and places where they want to nip in and out? If there is a limited resource, it is obviously in the interests of the oil companies to have all the chargers at petrol stations to put people off, but we need them to be where people go shopping and stop at motorway services, and that should be the top priority.

[Mr Hayes]

That is a well-made point and one that we explored when we considered these matters previously. It is very important that the charging infrastructure is spread. There is a risk, which has been highlighted by Members from all parties, including the SNP Members who served on the last Bill Committee, that charging infrastructure becomes focused on major routes and in urban and suburban areas, and that smaller roads and rural parts of our kingdom are under-provided. That is not acceptable and we will look at ways of addressing it.

The Bill is born of a determination to increase the number of charging points. It does, as the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) suggests, talk of major retailers at the moment, but I am prepared to look at other ideas for how we can seed more charging points more widely. I have no doubt that we will explore that during the passage of the Bill.

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[Geraint Davies]

Have the Government considered that automation might require software to make moral decisions? For example, if a car is hurtling down a road and some children go on to the road, would the software decide that the only option is for the car to go headlong into a lorry so that only the driver would die? Has the Minister considered such moral aspects?

[Mr Hayes]

The research and development work I studied in detail this morning looked at hundreds of thousands of scenarios. The people developing these products are now engaged in exactly this process of designing software capable of anticipating all the variables that drivers might encounter. It is complex and challenging, but it is going to happen. The hon. Gentleman is right, however, that this is about doing as well as—indeed better than—a driver in control of a vehicle and therefore about making the vehicle safer.

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[Karl Turner]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. Indeed, I think that I made the same point myself.

[Geraint Davies]

Does my hon. Friend think that there is any risk of interference with the software by someone malicious—even a terrorist—to make some of these automated devices dangerous?

[Karl Turner]

That is a valid point, and I know from my discussions with the Minister that the Government are considering it and taking it very seriously.

The second part of the Bill relates to electric vehicles, charging and infrastructure. At this point I should declare an interest, as the proud owner of an entirely electric vehicle. It is a little tiny Renault, a Renault TWIZY. I like to think that it is the Tesla for the many, not the few, because it is really quite affordable.

Electric and alternatively fuelled vehicles are key to reducing air pollution and meeting the UK's climate change objectives, as well as presenting economic opportunities. The uptake of electric, hybrid and alternatively fuelled vehicles is already underway and increasing. However, the Government are still 1.5 million vehicles short of their 1.6 million ULEV target for 2020, so it is imperative that action is taken to encourage their uptake.

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[Karl Turner]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right: there must be proper training for sales personnel as well.

On infrastructure more broadly, the Government must ensure that regulatory divergence does not develop between the UK and the EU as a result of Brexit; this is a very important issue. We must absolutely ensure that regulation and standards are maintained after Brexit. That is essential if the UK is to be the vehicle manufacturers’ location of choice for the development, testing and deployment of automated and electric vehicles. However, if the Government continue to mess up Brexit, any positives this Bill brings in terms of encouraging the automated and low emissions vehicles industries will be completely negated.

[Geraint Davies]

My hon. Friend will be aware that Volvo and some other companies are getting rid of petrol and diesel production entirely and are focusing their fire more on France and Germany, which are going to stop diesel and petrol vehicles by 2030, as opposed to 2040, and where infrastructure development is also moving much faster. Does my hon. Friend agree that we need to go at least at the pace of our European counterparts in providing the range of infrastructure needed to encourage the private sector in Britain to get a move on?

[Karl Turner]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right.

We will table amendments in Committee, but the Opposition are very broadly supportive of the Bill.

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[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman, the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner), particularly as he supports this Bill, as I do; indeed, I say to my right hon. Friend the Minister that I greatly welcome the introduction of this Bill, which, as I pointed out in one of my interventions, is timely.

The Opposition Front-Bench spokesman talked about the official figures for the ranges of various cars, so he will be interested to know that when I was reading Next Green Car, I saw that the new Renault Zoe Z.E. 40 has an official range of 250 miles. It seems to me that almost on a weekly basis new vehicles are coming on to the market with that range extended, which is so important for electric vehicle users who suffer from range anxiety; I gather that that is a new form of anxiety which we can all suffer from if we get an electric car.

It is a great pleasure, too, to be taking part in a transport debate in which I am not discussing High Speed 2. This will come as a bit of a shock to some of my fans, but I have to say that I am more excited about electric vehicles and automated vehicles than about HS2. That is enough about HS2, however—except to suggest that perhaps the track could be used to run automated vehicles along, rather than the antiquated technology the Department for Transport appears to be ordering.

So often legislation and Governments are behind the curve when it comes to technology and science. In the ’90s, when I was first elected to this House, we were discussing the human genome project to a greater degree, and the legislation and regulations seemed to be far behind the science and technology at that time. So, unlike the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman, I do not think this Bill can be introduced and put through its stages soon enough, because it covers one of the foundations of this new technology.

We are behind countries such as Norway, where more than 5% of the passenger cars now sold are plug-ins. The Bill, which covers the insurance position on automated vehicles and electric vehicle charging, is setting the framework for some of the most significant advances since the internal combustion engine made an appearance, which in fact halted the progress of the electric vehicle the first time around.

I do not know how many people appreciate that electric vehicles are in fact far from new: wider public ownership of them is new, but the first practical production electric car was built in London in 1884 by Thomas Parker. I have seen a picture of it; it looks a bit like a pram on wheels, and I would not recommend it to anybody. Interestingly, electric vehicles did come into use commercially, particularly in a small fleet of 12 cabs in New York as far back as 1897. The advent of the internal combustion engine provided the advantage of longer range and quicker refuelling. The rapid development of the infrastructure for petrol vehicles meant that electric vehicles took—forgive the pun—a back seat. There is a lesson to be learned from the death of the electric vehicle the first time round and the rapid introduction of the infrastructure for petrol vehicles.

[Geraint Davies]

Is the right hon. Lady aware that before world war two, all British cities had electric tram systems, and that after the war, the oil and motor car industries conspired to get them ripped out as part of the Marshall plan? Should we not be aware of the oil industry in our bid to get electrification and clean air in Britain?

[Mrs Gillan]

I will leave the hon. Gentleman to make his own point on that.

I am particularly excited about the progress of electric vehicles because of my concern about the environment. Air quality has already been mentioned, and there is no doubt that the Paris climate talks started to exert the downward pressure on carbon dioxide emissions that will inevitably result in the phasing out of fossil fuels. I have been talking to the Renewable Energy Association, which is the UK’s largest trade association for renewable energy and clean technology. It has produced an excellent forward view, which estimates that the move towards electric vehicles will be even more rapid than is currently anticipated by the Government.

Diesel Vehicle Scrappage Scheme

Geraint Davies Excerpts

Wednesday 19th April 2017 Westminster Hall

[Neil Parish]

I very much agree, because I think that any scrappage scheme must be very much linked to electric vehicles and certainly hybrid vehicles. I see little point in converting people from diesel back to petrol, especially if we use taxpayers’ money to do that.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I support everything that the hon. Gentleman is saying. He knows that today I am publishing my Clean Air Bill, which deals with wider mapping to provide infrastructure for electric and hydrogen, more powers for local authorities and a broader fiscal strategy to confront the escalating number of people dying because of diesel emissions. Will he lend that Bill his support—I know he has put his name to it—today?

[Neil Parish]

The hon. Gentleman’s Bill is a good idea, because we all have to work together on air quality to lengthen the lives of many of our constituents and certainly of many people in the hotspots. That is where electric vehicles, the charging points, taxis, buses and all those things come in. We need to look at hydrogen cars; we need to look at a whole range of vehicles, and perhaps sometimes we need to take people out of vehicles altogether. Norman Tebbit’s “On your bike” may have a whole new meaning. If people go to work on a bike, that is good for the environment as well as for getting to work.

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[Geraint Davies]

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s generosity in giving way. Does he accept that there is a strong case that the motor manufacturers, not just the taxpayer and the consumer, should make a major contribution towards the cost of such a scheme? Volkswagen has had to pay billions of dollars in the United States because of its cheat devices; we know that emissions on the road were at five or six times their supposed laboratory levels, and a lot of cars in France, Germany and elsewhere have been withdrawn for a refit. Is there not a strong case that the Government should go to the manufacturers for a contribution towards the scheme?

[Neil Parish]

I know that the Minister has had some strong discussions with Volkswagen. It is not just Volkswagen; car manuals often give a figure for miles per gallon and then a true figure that is about two-thirds of the ideal figure. They will say that the car does 60 mpg when it really does 45 mpg or 40 mpg, so there has been a certain amount of deception there. I also think that companies such as Volkswagen could buy themselves some public esteem by helping to support a scheme for moving towards electric vehicles. Not only should the Government talk to Volkswagen and other vehicle manufacturers; it would be good for those companies, which have manufactured so many diesels, to say, “We can help to convert people away from diesel.” The hon. Gentleman makes a good point.

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[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

As I mentioned earlier, I will publish my Clean Air Bill today. I should put on record that I completely agree with the sentiments and words of the Chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish). We all recognise that we have limited resources, so a targeted, capped scheme would send the right signal to consumers and producers about the future and put the focus in the right place. The electric car company Tesla, which produced just 76,000 cars last year, is worth $49 billion—$3 billion more than Ford, which produced 6.6 million cars. In other words, the marketplace is ready for these changes, and the Government need to facilitate them.

My Bill sets out a wider plan to provide a hydrogen infrastructure, an electric infrastructure and new powers for local authorities to get the evidence on localised air pollution, in order to have evidence-based restrictions and charges that protect the elderly, young people and general communities, alongside a fiscal strategy. This is a brave and sensible first step in that endeavour.

[Mr Spellar]

My hon. Friend talked about the market deciding. Which market is he talking about? Is it the bubble stock market, maybe reflecting fashionable thought, or is it the actual car market, which shows overwhelmingly that people are buying from the mainstream manufacturers?

[Geraint Davies]

Obviously, we can influence the market. More than 50% of new cars are now diesel. Margaret Thatcher knew about the problems of particulates and there was a judgment call on public health versus carbon. Since then, the problems with NOx have grown. The fact is that the amount of particulates and NOx being produced is much, much greater than people previously thought, partly because of the deception of Volkswagen and others. This is a public health catastrophe.

I will present the case for my Bill this afternoon with support from the Royal College of Physicians, the Royal College of General Practitioners and UNICEF. People will know that last year’s report by the Royal College of Physicians found that 40,000 premature deaths were due to these emissions, as well as presenting emerging evidence about foetuses suffering long-term damage and about the damage to the neurology, and general physical and mental health, of young children in urban spaces, particularly in poor areas. Those children are being poisoned, which has a disastrous impact on the rest of their lives. I am not prepared, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) appears to be, just to go on with business as normal, backing the poison of the current industry, which seeks to maximise profits.

It is the function of the Government to regulate markets in the interests of the public and it is an outrage that parents are unable to protect their own children, and that—as we speak—hundreds of thousands of children are in playgrounds enjoying themselves but inadvertently inhaling poisonous fumes. We need to take action and I am glad that we are moving forward with this first step; I hope that the Government agree.

[Graham Stringer]

I agree with the general thrust of my hon. Friend’s argument, but we should not let off the Government and all the parties in this House who supported the incentives for diesel. The health risks were known more than 25 years ago. A report by the then Environment Department in 1993, a piece in 2001 by the European Respiratory Journal and other sources all pointed out the health problems of NOx and particulates. People got the balance wrong between the perceived threat of carbon dioxide and the real threat of those poisons, but we should not pretend that there was ignorance of this issue in the past; there was not.

[Geraint Davies]

That is a point well made. I mentioned in passing that Margaret Thatcher and subsequent Governments were aware all along of these public health issues. Ironically, it is also the case that, with VW and the like, lorries often produce less NOx than cars. The reason for that is that defeat devices were found in lorries in America, but for some reason the authorities there did not realise that they were being deceived on cars on such a colossal scale.

Of course, ClientEarth has taken the Government to court, as we do not even satisfy minimum EU standards, let alone World Health Organisation standards, and I very much hope that as and when Brexit happens we will ensure that air quality standards are legally enforceable and at least at the level of the minimum EU standard, while moving towards the WHO standards.

These are difficult issues. I appreciate that people have bought cars in good faith. They feel that the current Government, which has been in power for seven years, the previous Labour Government and even the Government before that should have alerted them to these problems, and there is a move, alongside what is being said, perhaps to index fuel duties differentially. In the case of diesel, the real cost of diesel may not go up because of upwards inflation and because the cost of other fuels do not go up. Basically, the signals should be given that people would be wise to move forward.

I will ask the Minister a couple of technical questions. I would like him to comment on displacement issues regarding the targeting of the scrappage scheme; obviously, there are various incentives, which will affect different groups. I think we all share the view that many poorer communities will suffer the worst impacts of air pollution on their children. In addition, many poorer people have the worst cars, which they cannot afford to replace. Therefore, I welcome the progressive thrust of this debate, and to allow others to speak I will conclude my remarks there.

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[Mr Spellar]

I think the hon. Gentleman is underplaying the position. I acknowledge the fact that he is a farmer—which is why I threw it in the way I did—but I would ask whether he and his neighbours use red diesel. There was no mention in his contribution as to whether the enormous discount on red diesel should be included in our considerations. Again, I note that there was no figure—no estimate—for how much all of this will cost.

[Geraint Davies]

The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) mentioned the cap of half a billion pounds for the scrappage scheme, but if the signal from the Government to the market is that having points for hydrogen and gas is the direction of travel, the market will accelerate the infrastructure provision. As has been pointed out, there is a gas and an electric infrastructure. We need to pump prime a hydrogen infrastructure and the market will invest. The old-style socialist view that everything has to be paid for by the state is not the case.

[Mr Spellar]

But we are talking about dramatic change, with 11.7 million diesel cars, let alone trucks, buses and so on. The idea that the current infrastructure or even a massively ramped-up infrastructure will be able to deal with that without major Government investment seems entirely fanciful.

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[Geraint Davies]

I may be paraphrasing my right hon. Friend, but he said that the EU did not really care about the issue. My understanding is that there was a move for an EU air quality regulator that was blocked by the British in some sort of dodgy deal related to avoiding a banking regulator. There is movement towards air quality improvement and innovation in Europe. In the Council of Europe, in which I sit, an urban air quality study is going on. Given that 3 million people are dying across the globe, with 400,000 in Europe, there is an imperative to develop sustainable transport technology. The thrust of his argument seems to be—

[Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair)]

Order. Interventions are getting longer and longer. At least one other hon. Member wishes to participate in this debate.

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[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) on securing this important debate. It was fascinating to listen to the speech by the right hon. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar), who set out in pithy terms the policy issues concerned with this matter. I draw attention to my declarations in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Also, I chair the all-party group for fair fuel.

Pollution is a serious problem, but it is important that we look at the science and the statistics and do not go around the place scaremongering. We must not allow the people who for a long time have not been in favour of cars to find another excuse to attack motorists and to seek to visit extra taxes upon them. So when we look at the serious problem of NOx we need to look at what has happened to pollution over the past decade and beyond, because it is revealing that NOx pollution levels have halved in the past decade. They have gone from 1.6 million tonnes in 2005 to 0.9 million tonnes in 2015.

Particulates are also down. Between 1990 and 2015 the most harmful particulate emissions reduced by 47% in the UK and PM10 fell by 51%. I think we should spend a little less time beating ourselves up and a little more time congratulating ourselves and our nation on the advances we have made. Much has been done, but there is much yet to do, and I want to address what we need to do next.

[Geraint Davies]

If the hon. Gentleman looks at the associated data, he will find that from 2010 to 2017 there was a levelling off and a gradual increase in particulates and NOx.

[Charlie Elphicke]

The hon. Gentleman always looks on the positive side of things. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs figures show that there has been a levelling off, but they are still hugely down. The hon. Gentleman should try to be more of a glass half full sort of person and look at the progress that has been made. He has promoted the Clean Air Bill, which, from the way he talks about it, will attack motorists, diesels and cars. However, let us look at the scale of the problem in the round. Let us look at the science rather than the rhetoric. Let us look at the numbers. What percentage of nitrogen oxide pollution in London comes from diesel cars? The Labour Mayor of London proposes to try to fleece motorists out of £20 every time they visit the city. According to the London Assembly Environment Committee’s report, the percentage is 11%. Separate figures from Transport for London indicate 12% from the diesel car. Some 750,000 diesel cars in London produce that amount.

Why has there not been any focus on the other 90% of the problem? The risk is that we only attack the motorists who thought they were doing the right thing when they bought the cars, because they were advised to do so. They were advised that it was a clean, environment-friendly thing to do. We are at risk of unfairly targeting and demonising those people, and of ignoring the other 90% of the problem. If we focus on 10% of the problem, we risk not looking at the other 90%. So what is in that 90% that needs to be in the air quality plans? I hope the hon. Gentleman will talk about that when he discusses his Bill and will look at the science and statistics and not just go after the poor motorists, many of whom live in his constituency. Let us look at where the problem comes from.

The answer is that 8% comes from rail: ageing trains chuffing up fumes at Paddington. Some 14% comes from non-road mobile machinery: generators on building sites. The system does not seem to allow plugging them into the main grid, which would be the obvious thing to do, so we have to have diesel generators. Why has action not been taken on that? Why have we not heard about that from the medical and the green lobby who want to target the motorist? We ought to hear about that. We ought to look at the diggers that do not have the filters that they should have, that do not have the same quality. We ought to clean up our building sites. We ought to look to do that, because if it is important, it is important across the board.

We need to look at non-domestic and domestic gas—gas central heating systems produce nitrogen oxide. So do Transport for London’s buses—10% of nitrogen oxide in London comes from buses, which the right hon. Member for Warley mentioned.

It is very important that we do not demonise diesel drivers and that this is not seen as an opportunity for Labour Mayors and Labour councils up and down the land to fleece motorists with more taxes—many have set out such plans. As the right hon. Member for Warley pointed out, in many cases that would hurt the poorest, who have been priced out of cities, and would be unfair. We should make sure that we have an across-the-board plan to deal with a problem that affects everyone; we should focus not on the 10% but on the 100%. It is my plea that we treat motorists fairly—that we treat ourselves fairly. We should treat the whole problem and all of the pollution. That is how we will have the best chance of making sure we have cleaner air, a cleaner country, cleaner cities and a cleaner nation, for our sake, and the sake of our children.

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[Mr Hayes]

My hon. Friend is right that in implementing any set of policies we need to be clear about the particularities of different localities. The circumstances in rural areas are different in all kinds of ways. The biggest problem with air quality and pollution is obviously in urban areas, and the Government’s approach—of which clean air zones are the exemplification—has, of course, focused on just such areas. It would be inconceivable for us not to be sensitive to different circumstances, which is why we are so determined to work with all agencies and local government in particular to ensure that the specificity of any proposals that we put into place is sufficient to deal with those particularities. He is absolutely right to raise that.

Having said that air quality has improved, let us be clear: we must do more. There is no complacency in making a bald statement about the facts. We have to go further, for, as Disraeli also said:

“The health of the people is really the foundation upon which all their happiness”

depends. It is right that high nitrogen dioxide levels exacerbate the impact of pre-existing health conditions, especially for elderly people and children, as my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton and others made clear; it is right that we protect those most affected by poor air quality. I am absolutely committed to that objective.

People know this already, but I am not afraid or ashamed to restate it: Government can be a force for good. I mentioned the Clean Air Acts, and in those terms Governments were a force for good and can continue to be so if we get the regulatory environment right. Air pollution has reduced, but we need to tackle it with a new vigour and determination. Road transport is at the heart of that, because it is the single biggest contributor to high local concentrations of nitrogen dioxide, and it is nitrogen dioxide that has featured large in the debate.

[Geraint Davies]

The Minister mentioned the reduction of pollution, but will he not accept that the aggregate reduction of pollution in Britain is linked to the demise of the coal mines and the exporting of our manufacturing base, as well as the financial disaster in 2008? If he focused his measurements on more recent years and urban environments, there has been a worrying escalation in the NOx and particulates that we are talking about. We should therefore support the scheme.

[Mr Hayes]

In recent years emissions have been a problem in particular areas—I acknowledge that clearly—and the Government are particularly keen to deal with the effects on those areas. The air quality plan will of course have a national footprint, as it is a national plan. The particularity I described was about Government setting out an appropriate and deliverable framework, and then working with localities to ensure that in the implementation of that framework all those local circumstances are put in place. That is the point that I was making about urban and rural areas and the different circumstances that apply there.

Clean air zones cover a designated area and involve a range of immediate local actions to support cities to grow while delivering sustained improvements in air quality and transition to a low-emission economy. Measures that could be implemented include the promotion of ultra-low emission vehicles; upgrading buses and taxis; promoting cycling schemes; and, in the worst cases, charging for the most polluting vehicles. In 2015 we named five cities, Birmingham, Leeds, Nottingham, Derby and Southampton, that are required to introduce a clean air zone. The Government are engaging with the relevant local authorities on the schemes’ detailed design.

Clean air zones will support the transition to a low-emission economy, but the Government are considering how to mitigate the zones’ impacts on those worst affected. I am not in the business of disadvantaging those who are already disadvantaged and in exaggerating the circumstances of those who already face tough choices and have a struggle to make their way in the world. That is not we are about and would not be the kind of fair politics that I believe in and to which this Government are committed. A fairer Britain is one that takes account of such disadvantages and we will do so in the construction and delivery of this policy.

My hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton suggested that a means-tested scrappage scheme could address some of those issues. He emphasised the fact that his scheme would be means-tested, and he did so with a fair amount of passion. Hegel said:

“Nothing great in the world has ever been accomplished without passion”,

and my hon. Friend has displayed that very passion today. Let me be clear: I note his points and I will ensure that they are considered as part of our consultation and as part of our work. I do not think you get much better than that typically in Westminster Hall.

It is absolutely right that the Government’s clean air zone policy recognises all the challenges that have been set out by various contributors to the debate and it tackles the problems of the most polluted places by acknowledging that low-cost transport is vital to people’s opportunities and wellbeing.

Severn Bridges

Geraint Davies Excerpts

Tuesday 31st January 2017 Westminster Hall

[Jessica Morden]

My hon. Friend is completely right. More clarity would be most welcome so that, when statutory instruments are introduced on the matter, we are far clearer about what the effects will be. The consultation contains more detail about the options that are not being considered than about those that are on the table. It says that Highways England will have the responsibility in future, but will it contract out any elements of the operation or maintenance of the bridges? What maintenance charges, other than for the resurfacing, do the Department for Transport anticipate for the bridges in the first 18 months?

The consultation mentions the option of removing tolls between 10 pm and 6 am—off-peak travel—but does not seek views. Will the Government speak to businesses and others to gauge their views? Business representatives I met in my constituency on Friday said they thought it would be extremely attractive to companies based in south Wales, particularly in the logistics industry, so more work should be done to pursue that option.

To conclude, the Severn Bridges Act was written almost 30 years ago. As we have said many times, it was an inflexible piece of legislation that was not future-proofed. I have one plea for the Minister: whatever legislation we have to pass—the consultation made mention of statutory instruments—we as local Members should be consulted properly. We and our constituents need to be able to take part, because in the months to come we will have many more detailed questions, although I hope that the Minister can answer some today. I appreciate other hon. Members supporting the debate and I look forward to their contributions.

[Geraint Davies (in the Chair)]

Moving from Newport East to Newport West, I call Mr Paul Flynn.

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[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr John Hayes)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies.

Dickens said:

“An idea, like a ghost...must be spoken to a little before it will explain itself.”

The hon. Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) has certainly spoken to and about this idea on many occasions, including today, and I congratulate her on taking the opportunity to make the case that she has made before once again. Relatively recently, in July 2015 in this Chamber, she raised these issues and asked the Government to do many things. I will address as many of those issues as I can in the time that I have available. As is inevitable on these occasions, I have a pre-prepared script written for me by my officials, which will inform me, but I will not be constrained by it. As I have said before, I feel it is important in Westminster Hall debates to answer the points made by hon. and right hon. Members and not simply to parrot what I could have said regardless of their contributions.

[Geraint Davies (in the Chair)]

I am sure that is very welcome.

[Paul Flynn]

Will the right hon. Gentleman elevate himself to a star in the political firmament by abandoning his pre-prepared script and answering the debate? It would be a rare and delicious experience for us.

[Paul Flynn]

It depends how we look at history. I once read a book that asserted that only the future is certain, but the past is always changing. We have just seen an example of that and of somebody rewriting his own history. However, it is a matter of great honour and pride to us in Newport that in 1839 the last Chartist riot took place in order to set up a republic. We have week-long celebrations every year. That is our view of history and the Chartist riot was contemporaneous with the Rebecca riots. It was a glorious start to socialism in this country and throughout Europe, and something of which we are very proud. Of course, there is a black history interpretation whereby people with a Conservative mood of mind try to fictionalise those great events, but they were heroic and it is time to bring them back.

[Geraint Davies (in the Chair)]

I confirm this is in order because it is a bridge to the future.

[Mr Hayes]

I did not want any historical inaccuracy—I have used the word now—to stand on the record uncorrected. I know you would not have wanted that either, Mr Davies.

I want to turn now to the specific matters relating to the Severn crossing. The hon. Member for Newport East generously acknowledged at the outset that we have begun the consultation that was promised previously. In the debate that I referred to in 2015, she referred to

“the need to offer some light at the end of the tunnel for my constituents.”—[Official Report, 21 July 2015; Vol. 598, c. 436WH.]

That is part of the reason why she secured that debate then when she sought further progress on the character of tolls, which I will try to address today. She will know that the current consultation invites contributions on a range of issues, many of which have been raised here. It is a real consultation, and we are genuinely open-minded about how we move forward. The Government have made some proposals, as was also said. None the less, to be meaningful, the consultation has to respond to consultees’ ideas and thoughts. We have not come to any predestined conclusion, and I will take into account the various comments that have been made.

I want to deal with five matters. First, on the amount of the toll, the hon. Lady and other hon. Members will know that we have proposed effectively to halve the toll by reducing it to £3. She will also know that that will be welcomed widely by regular users of the route, for any reduction of that scale and size is bound to be welcome. However, the hon. Lady asked for more detail on traffic flows. That is a perfectly reasonable request and I will make more information available following today’s debate. It is important that we gauge the effect on traffic flows of any changes we make both in the toll and in the way it is collected.

There were changes to traffic flows—I discussed this before the debate—when we changed the tolling system at the Dartford crossing in Kent. We believed that if we could automate the process it would improve the flow of traffic and ease congestion and so on. If we were to make that change at the Severn crossing—we are consulting on that and people will offer views—it is important that we gauge the likely effect on the convenience of travellers. The hon. Lady is right to ask about that and details will be provided.

The hon. Lady also asked us to break down costs in greater detail, and that is also a reasonable request. There are a variety of costs. My hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), who always speaks with great authority on all matters to do with Wales—indeed, on all other matters as well—said that a balance has to be struck. A perennial debate on river crossings—bridges and other structures—is how much the Exchequer and the user should each contribute. That debate continues almost wherever some fee or charge is made. It is easy to describe it as double taxation of those concerned but, my goodness, we could say that of any charge that is made for any public service. I do not think that we should want to characterise every charge made to every taxpayer as double taxation. That would be crude and even—dare I say—a little crass.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Lady is right to say that we need to set out the process, and that responsibility will pass to Highways England. The fourth of my five points is that it is important to be clear about how Highways England will manage the process. She asked particularly whether others will be involved and Highways England will contract the responsibility. That will of course partly depend on the results of the consultation. If we move to a free-flow system, like the one at the Dartford crossing, it will have implications for organisation and management. Fewer people will be involved at the crossing and more behind the scenes, and there will be advance booking as happens at Dartford, with an account-based system that will hopefully help traffic flow. That will require us to set out, following the consultation, the further steps necessary for the handover. I am happy to do that, but I do not want to pre-judge the consultation.

There are arguments for maintaining cash payment; I will be blunt about that. When we debated Dartford, the first time I was in the Department for Transport, we considered that closely because a cash system is simple and straightforward; but there are disadvantages—particularly the delays. Evidence from places in this country and abroad shows that automated systems can be highly effective, can be properly managed, and can offer considerable benefits, particularly to regular and business users. We will set out the transition process and it will to some degree depend on what we do about future toll collection.

The fifth point that I want to make is to express thanks to those involved over time in managing and maintaining the crossing. It is right that in any changes that take place we recognise the contribution that people have made to running this important crossing, which is a vital piece of UK infrastructure. It has benefited road users from England and Wales for 50 years, it is used by more than 25 million vehicles each year and it has provided road users and businesses in England and Wales with exceptional savings in time and money since the first crossing helped to connect the economies of both countries in 1966.

I enjoyed the story about the ferry, although I am not sure I was meant to enjoy it. It sounded like a hazardous—indeed tortuous—business, and I imagine that those who can look back on that will recognise just what a difference the crossing has made. As we now consider the next steps, it is important that we take account of the effects they might have on all of those involved in the process, and I wanted to do so publicly.

Let me summarise my response. I repeat that we have no preordained view about how this matter should unfold. It is important that these debates inform thinking, and they certainly do in my case. There is a strong argument for making as much information available as possible to Members of this House and more widely along the lines requested throughout the debate across the Chamber, and we will do so.

If the debate does no more than all of that, it will have achieved a great deal, because it has persuaded this Minister—if he needed persuading—not only of the importance of the matter but that we need to move ahead with as wide agreement as possible about the kind of tolls charged, the effect they have on people, the methodology that we employ and the steps we will take to manage that process. All of that will happen, and the hon. Member for Newport East can be proud of yet again representing her constituents and others so admirably.

As a postscript, the hon. Lady and the hon. Member for Newport West can be pretty sure that my references to the pre-written script were as slight as the hon. Gentleman had hoped.

[Geraint Davies (in the Chair)]

We will finish where we started: I call Jessica Morden to wind up briefly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady. I have spoken already, but I omitted to pay tribute to the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones). Were it not for him and his role in this matter—I mention him because he answered the debate last time round—I do not think we would have moved as quickly as we have. He has been determined to ensure that we responded properly to the hon. Lady’s concerns. It is not I but he who deserves the credit for any progress that has been made.

[Geraint Davies (in the Chair)]

That sets a precedent—an intervention on a wind-up.

[Jessica Morden]

I appreciate the Minister’s intervention. I thank him for his comments, but I am not sure whether we are that much clearer about the breakdown of the £3 toll. I will hold him to his promise to break that down for us in more detail.

I am also not sure whether we are that much closer to understanding the handover plan. The Department for Transport clearly cannot take over the bridges the minute the last car pays up and the revenue target is reached, so it would be useful to know about that, not least because I would not want constituents to face another annual increase in January 2018. I would also like more detail from the Minister on what can be done about the TAG reduction.

I hope that this time we end up with a lasting solution that means we can future-proof the legislation. Will the Minister respond in writing to anything else we have raised in the debate? That would be particularly helpful. As in all our efforts in talking about the Severn bridge tolls, we do so for our constituents, our businesses and the wider economy of south Wales, which have been hit hard by the tolls over the years.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered future operation of the Severn Bridges.

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

Geraint Davies Excerpts

Wednesday 18th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

That demonstrates the challenges we face to get the pace right. One thing we should be absolutely clear about is the importance of sticking to the course. There are three reasons why it is important to stick to the course of reducing the deficit and reducing debt. It is inherently unfair for future generations to bear the cost of debt we have built up.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Hoban]

Let the hon. Gentleman answer this question: is it really fair for our children and grandchildren to pay the cost of debts we have built up? Let him answer that question.

[Geraint Davies]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that since 2010 debt as a share of GDP has grown from 55% to 80%, and that the Tories have borrowed more in five years than we did in 13 years even though we had to bail out the banks? Is that not a complete failure of economic management?

--- Later in debate ---

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty), who sits on the European Scrutiny Committee with me.

First of all, I should welcome a couple of things in the Budget. One, of course, is the Swansea Bay lagoon. If that is going ahead—I assume that the Planning Inspectorate has suggested it supports it—it will be more than a small step for green energy and a giant leap for the Swansea economy. Secondly, I welcome the VAT withdrawal from tolls on the Severn bridge, which will loosen the noose around the neck of the south Wales economy, although I think the toll should be reduced down to the maintenance and operations level—about £1.50 a car—to encourage inward investment, tourism and trade, particularly with the south-west.

In general, however, I think this is a candy-floss Budget—it looks bigger than it is and seems to taste nice, but afterwards we are left feeling hungry, and it is not particularly good for us. Prior to the Budget, we heard from the OBR that the previous plan was to reduce spending to 1930s levels. It is as if the Chancellor is operating a time machine. He has moved the switches, and he can move around the numbers, because the oil prices are down, so now apparently we are only going back to the year 2000. However, the executive summary from the OBR mentions that the cuts, increased for 2016-17 and 2017-18, are much harsher and sharper than in the previous five years, but then he plans the biggest increase in real spending for a decade in 2019-20, which of course is election year. In other words, this is cynical electioneering, rather than a long-term economic plan.

On the long-term plan, the two variables people talk about are the deficit and jobs. It is hardly a success to see debt as a share of GDP move from 55%, where Labour left it, to where it is now, hovering around 80%. It is hardly a success that the Conservatives and the coalition Government have borrowed more in five years than Labour did in 13 years, during which time we bailed out the banks. The reason for that is the failure to generate growth. It is claimed that there is lots of growth, because there is 2.6% growth at last, but annualised growth over the past five years has been about 1.7%. Under Labour, growth was 40% over the 10 years prior to the banking crisis in 2008. Again, this is not a great success. We have lost our triple A rating.

There is talk about jobs. There are more jobs, but productivity is down and overall production is being spread among more people. There are 800,000 fewer people in jobs earning more than £20,000, and more people than that are earning less than £20,000. Through the economics of austerity and low wages, we are generating less tax revenue, we cannot balance the books and debt is going up. That is hardly great news. Meanwhile, there is talk of people literally dying on sanctions. In Swansea, 65% of people on jobseeker’s allowance, surviving on £72 a week, have been put on sanctions. Why are the Government not focusing on the 10% of wealth held in offshore accounts where it is evading or avoiding tax? We have heard something about that, but it is more talk than action and recovery.

The big choice is not about how much we spend versus tax and comparing the different numbers; it is about how growth can help to generate revenue and get the deficit and debt down. Anyone who, like me, has run a business knows that if they make a loss there are two ways forward: one is to make savings and the other is to grow the business. How are we going to do that? In fact, we are doing the opposite. We have the austerity of cuts. With the police, we have seen 26% cuts and another 20% of cuts are still to come through. The president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, Sir Hugh Orde, has said that we are at a tipping point and there might be greater risks from disorganised terrorism. It is the same with defence, with massive cuts to the budget, while Russia is spending £50 billion or 3.3 trillion roubles on defence. There are threats out there in the world; are we rising to them? No, we are not. Why not? Because we are not generating growth.

Growth incorporates the three elements of consumption, investment and net exports. Consumption confidence was dashed in 2010 when the Chancellor said he would sack half a million people and people stopped spending money. Investment was undermined when the funding for lending scheme of the Bank of England was focused on mortgages, not businesses, so that lending to business went down by 40%. There was no growth in net exports in 2013 in terms of the balance of trade, with no net contribution. Last year was even worse, as we lost £8 billion. Firing up exports has been a complete failure.

So we need a plan for growth, which includes things such as tuition fee reductions. What that does is increase productivity and the size of the cake. Whatever the Business Secretary says, the reality is that people are being deterred because of the prospect of having these massive debts. People’s credit ratings are being reduced; people cannot buy a house. At some point, if their incomes go up, they hit higher payback thresholds, and they want to avoid paying it all. It does not make sense; we need to invest in productivity. Tuition fees are relevant.

We need to say clearly that we want to be part of the EU because we need inward investment from China or India, platforming into the biggest economy in the world—it is the EU economy—from an English-speaking place, namely Britain. Those thinking of making such investment do not want to worry about a referendum and the possibility of our coming out of the EU. We want city regions and we want them supported by money from regional banks. We want a house building programme and we want a procurement strategy through which small businesses, which pay British tax, are encouraged and not discouraged by the bigger players.

We also want fairer taxes, whether it be a 50p top rate or getting rid of the bedroom tax. The reality is that poor people spend all their money, and rich people hide it away. If we want growth through consumption, we need a better way forward with a fairer balance of incomes. The truth is that we have a Chancellor who is looking to the future walking backwards. He is taking us back to an age in which the poor get poorer and the rich get richer. We all want a fair share, and we all want to be productive to help make Britain succeed together. That will only occur with a Labour Government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sheila Gilmore]

We have heard the argument that if we reduce taxes, we get more revenue in. Of course, it is usually heard in relation to the 50p rate of tax, but that was a very poor example. It hardly had any effect, and so many people made their own arrangements before and after the announcement was made on reducing the rate again that we cannot tell what really happened.

It is important that we should have a discussion about the kind of values we want and the kind of society we want to live in. There has been a similar debate north of the border, where we have a Government who are trying to suggest that, although they do not necessarily want to cut taxes, it is possible to have fantastic services without ever putting up taxes. That will also leave the public confused about what can really be achieved.

[Geraint Davies]

Does my hon. Friend accept that if the Government consistently put up tax allowances while putting wages down, tax revenues are going to fall? Does she agree that that is why we are nearly bankrupt?

[Sheila Gilmore]

Tax revenues have been falling, and the whole issue about low wages is extremely important.

We have had discussions in the House about zero-hours contracts. I think it was the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) who said today that Labour had done nothing about them for 13 years. I was not a Member of this House at that time, but I was a local councillor for much of that period and I met people constantly in that role. In all honesty, I do not recall people raising the issue in the way that they have been doing more recently.

Zero-hours contracts are a growing phenomenon, and they are still under-reported. I mention them on some of the literature that I give out when I am door-knocking, and a couple of the people I have spoken to in the past few days have looked at that literature and said, “What are zero-hours contracts?” When I explained, they said, “Oh yes, that’s what my son had when he was working for a pizza house.” Another man said, “Oh yes, that’s what happened to my son. The other day, he called and asked me to pick him up from work because he had gone in, only to be told to go home again because there was not enough work for him. They could do that under the terms of his contract.” Those people might not have known the term “zero-hours contract”, but they certainly recognised the conditions involved.

These issues are a matter of concern for young people. Unemployment is not falling as it should be. It is still, in the words of most commentators, “stubbornly high”, and we need to do something to address the problem. Also, earnings for younger people have not risen. The Government are proud of saying that average household incomes are beginning to rise again. Those in the oldest age group have done the best, and people in the middle are beginning to do a bit better, but young people are still doing significantly less well. That is a serious matter and we should be giving it greater consideration.

Many young people have a string of temporary jobs. They are in and out of jobs even when there is work available, which is very frustrating. One constituent told me that her son had worked for Royal Mail for three months at Christmas. He knew that it was a temporary job and he was told that there was no further work afterwards. He signed up with an agency that handled temping work, and he was phoned up a few weeks after Christmas and asked whether he was interested in a “call-on job”—a zero-hours contract, effectively—with Royal Mail, no less. So apparently there was no proper job on offer, but Royal Mail had none the less asked the agency to take on someone on those terms. How much better would it be for that young man if he could get a proper job that paid him a proper wage and in which he could learn a skill? We must do something for our young people. We must not sit back in apparent complacency and say that there is not a problem.

Cross-border Rail Services in Wales

Geraint Davies Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd July 2014 Westminster Hall

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I noticed an advert in London the other day that mentioned a Virgin train from London to Manchester costing just £19 and taking two hours and nine minutes, a train from London to Birmingham taking one hour and 24 minutes and costing £7.50 and, of course, one from London to Swansea that takes three hours and costs £78.

The Government have decided to invest more than £40 billion in High Speed 2. There is an issue about geographical equity in economic development, and we need to think about that. Some £5,000 per head is spent in London, versus £500 elsewhere. It is important to people from Wales—certainly, those from south Wales—to link up to the city regions in south Wales, which are also networked into the city regions in the south-west. As it happens, my father was the head of economic development in the Welsh Office many years ago—Rhodri Morgan used to work for him, interestingly enough—when a study was done showing that, in respect of the invoice network, the economy of south Wales was linked more to the south-west than to north Wales. Clearly, infrastructure investment in rail and road connectivity should follow that.

There has been talk about HS2 connecting to north Wales, but KPMG has suggested that it will be different in south Wales and that we in Swansea, for example, will be losing some £16 million a year and Cardiff will lose £70 million a year. There is a case for a Barnett consequential of approaching £2 billion to help connectivity to south Wales.

I appreciate that the Minister will mention electrification, and I was pleased that the Prime Minister promised to electrify the railway from Paddington to Swansea, but I should like some clarification on that, because there is a bit of a spat going on with the Welsh Government. It now seems that the Government are saying that they will electrify as far as Cardiff and then from Bridgend to Swansea, but not from Cardiff to Bridgend. The issue is who pays for the electrification of the valleys lines. In my mind, the bit that runs from Cardiff to Bridgend, which is not the valleys, does not seem to be involved in this spat and should be paid for by the Prime Minister’s undertaking. Although we welcome electrification, we will be worse off downstream in inward investment, as I have already said.

My focus is on acknowledging that we should be making connections between the economic clusters in, for example, Neath-Port Talbot, Swansea and Lllanelli, and Cardiff and the valleys, so that we can stimulate economic growth. My hon. Friend the Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) mentioned tolls. Today is not the time to talk about tolls, but, again, that is a cost for south Wales that is not faced elsewhere.

We have a second-class service. In that regard, hon. Members have mentioned the frequency of trains, which is arguably equivalent to train speeds. From Swansea, there are two trains an hour to London Paddington, one at 28 minutes past the hour and one at five minutes to the hour, and people have to change at Cardiff from one of those trains. However, on the way back, at various times, particularly in the afternoon, there is only one train an hour. An inward investor thinking of investing, and going back and forth between Swansea and London, might have to wait nearly an hour at Paddington before getting a train, and they will then spend three hours on the train—a total of four hours. I urge the Minister to work with the Welsh Government on train timetabling. For example, in the other direction—I do not mean to be too parochial—people get the Manchester Piccadilly train one way, get off at Cardiff and then pick up another train and go on. On the way back, why can they not get the Cardiff train, then pick up the Manchester Piccadilly train or even a Bath train?

Hon. Members mentioned connectivity with Manchester. Looking at traffic flows, the economic network is, as I mentioned earlier, with the south-west, not with Manchester. It would be better to have much better, regular connectivity between Swansea and Bath and the south-west than connectivity with Manchester. Traffic flow and volume make the economic case for frequency and connectivities. I appreciate that it would involve working with the Welsh Government to get the train timetabling right. That is a simple thing that could be done within the next weeks, and overnight we could end up with an assurance of having two trains an hour from Paddington to Swansea. That would make a big difference to me when talking to inward investors who might want to go to Swansea bay city region.

There has been talk about nationalising Arriva Trains and about public ownership of various franchises. The Minister knows that the east coast main line is in public control and we are saving something like £700 million a year. It is worth looking at such cases around Britain. I understand that in Wales, we are spending some £170 million a year of taxpayers’ money on Arriva Trains. Again, the Welsh Government should look at that, not for the sake of it, but to deliver best value for money for the taxpayer.

I appreciate that Deutsche Bahn, the biggest railway company in Europe, has command over our freight system and, with a turnover of £39 billion, has the economic muscle to make the investment. I am particularly interested in investment in the south Wales rail network to make it part of the transnational transport network acknowledged by Europe. As Members will know, South Wales is not on the map of strategic European rail routes that people are willing to invest in; the connectivity just goes up the spine of England, not to south Wales, and one reason is that the criteria for such investment include core ports and airports.

In respect of the Silk report, there is a case for nationalisation of ports in Wales, in particular—the Minister may think this is an ideological point—so that Swansea port and the port at Port Talbot would be regarded as one port. Then we could increase the amount of freight to that port, triggering a process to make it a core port and in turn triggering its becoming part of the transnational rail network. That in turn would trigger European funding to provide connectivity that would then extend, transnationally, over to Ireland. My hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) made those points.

The trouble is that, if the only way to get rail investment is on the basis of its being demand-led as opposed to supply-led, we will always have a problem in Wales. The reality of the economics of transport is that, when a rail or tube link, or whatever, is provided, more people use it and more people buy houses, so house prices increase and there is more economic activity. To a certain extent, we have to lead with greater frequency and greater investment, and I certainly want to see that.

I am asking the Minister about extra investment in Wales, so that we get our fair share; about the frequency of trains; about whether he has a balanced view of whether the public or the private sector should run particular train franchises; and about whether he is willing for the public sector to bid in, as with the east coast main line. That would, of course, be a question for the Welsh Government.

In passing, let me mention some other rail projects. We should look more imaginatively at opportunities for some trains to go directly to Swansea from Cardiff without stopping, or from Cardiff to Port Talbot Parkway, with a light rail route going all the way through to the Mumbles.

The Minister may or may not know about the conversations about the Swansea tidal lagoon. I saw a presentation recently about it—three new lagoons would be provided, stretching across Swansea bay city region, but not the whole way across. It would not go as far as Swansea bay itself, so as not to distort the view towards the Mumbles. There would be a reconfiguration of the road and rail networks and a visitor centre that would generate, in the view of the plan’s originator, some 3 million visitors a year.

Will the Minister explain whether the planning regime is merely some sort of incremental process of upgrading, extending or reducing existing networks, or whether it is part of a more creative vision of economic development, which perhaps embraces a vision of Swansea—the area I represent—as not only an economic and academic hub, with its universities and traditional industry, but a quality tourist destination, building on the city of culture bid, Dylan Thomas and so on? That vision is of a place in a global marketplace, in which increasing numbers of people from China, India, Russia and Brazil want to go to English-speaking non-sun cultural destinations. How should that infrastructure be planned? How should we provide multi-modal connectivity with road, rail and the development of Cardiff airport to ensure that that vision works in a holistic way, rather than keeping an incremental, slightly pedestrian approach to transport planning?

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Hammond]

Most issues concerning rail services wholly inside Wales are now a matter for the Welsh Government, which is the key point here.

The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami), who is no longer in his place, suggested that rail is an afterthought. That may or may not have been the case previously, but it is certainly not the case under this Government. Rail is at the heart of both our economic and transport strategies.

The hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) referred to the scale of investment that he had seen elsewhere. The scale of investment proposed in the current control period between now and 2019 dwarfs any of the investment that he has seen in any other country, because £38 billion is being invested in this country’s rail system. On top of that, £30 billion is going towards the road system. He mentioned regional input, and we will soon be announcing local growth funds, into which local authorities will bid. We have also encouraged local authorities to come up with local rail projects, and there is also the local pinch point fund, so there is much local activity.

The hon. Gentleman also referred to the Wrexham to Bidston line, and I recognise and understand his desire for its electrification. At the moment, however, the aspiration should be to get a more frequent diesel service so that plans can move forward. The hon. Gentleman is right to have such hopes and I promise to work with him, because increasing frequency on that line would be of substantial benefit to his constituents.

My hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) spoke of his campaign for an hourly service from mid-Wales so that newly elected Conservative MPs can actually get to London, and I am delighted that that service is in place. He also asked about the new Virgin direct award deal and direct services from Shrewsbury to Euston. I confirm that he is absolutely right: there would be little point in putting in place a service that did not allow for economic growth and for easy movement from London to Shrewsbury, and the other way around, to do a day’s work. The first train in the morning leaves before 6.30 am, but gets into London by 9.15 am; the last train back in the evening leaves around 6.30 pm—I think at 6.32 pm—which gets someone back into Shrewsbury for 9 o’clock, allowing a full day’s work in London if necessary.

The hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) made a number of points, some of which I will cover later in my speech. He talked a little about his aspiration for renationalisation of certain parts of the line. I am not entirely sure where that fits with the shadow Chancellor ruling it out on the television on Sunday. I am happy to reaffirm to him, however, that the Government’s view is that franchising, and the creation of partnerships between the public and private sectors, is the best way to get value for money and better services for the fare payer and the customer, as well as the taxpayer. That is clear.

[Geraint Davies]

What I was getting at was that the east coast main line is now in public ownership, or publicly run, and we are saving £700 million, so does the Minister have an open mind on individual franchises? There was a basis for competitive tendering to include the public sector, so that we got the best value for money. I am not talking about total nationalisation for the sake of it; I want best value for the taxpayer. Does he agree with that, or does he want to give money away willy-nilly to the private sector because he is the one that is ideologically driven, not me?

[Stephen Hammond]

I absolutely disagree. The east coast franchise, however, will be out of public hands and back into private hands as a result of the franchising. By the end of the year, we will have announced the winner of that competition.

The hon. Gentleman must have noted the Rail Delivery Group report that came out on Monday, which pointed out that, since privatisation, the level of private sector profits for the rail companies has fallen, while the premium going to the Government has risen by more than £400 million. The facts show not only that privatisation has seen a doubling of passenger numbers, but that franchising has benefited both passenger and taxpayer. He should agree that those facts bear out the point that the process is not ideologically based at all.

The hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) talked about the Pembrokeshire to Manchester stopping service, but that is a matter for the Welsh Government, because the stops would be inside Wales. I am sure that the Welsh Government will read her comments, and I hope that they will take them on board. As hon. Members know, it is true that co-operation on and, where appropriate, co-ordination of transport matters between the Department for Transport and the Welsh Government is important to the success of cross-border links. Relationships have advanced significantly and co-operation under the joint parties agreement occurs regularly. The Welsh Government and the Department have a good working relationship. Officials can therefore provide Ministers with the best advice possible to deliver some of the aspirations that we are discussing.

Co-operation between the two Governments is clearly vital if we are to secure the best possible benefit from the record levels of investment now going into the rail network. The investment for 2014 to 2019 that I mentioned—the details were published in July 2012—is built around four priorities: further electrification; increased capacity and faster journey times between key cities; facilitating commuter travel between and into major urban areas; and improving the major railway links to ports and airports. More specifically in Wales, the strategy includes the £1.35 billion electrification of the Great Western main line between London and Cardiff, on which services are expected to be electric by late 2017, and the electrification of the valley lines, which is due to be completed by 2019. Furthermore, the UK Government are specifying and funding electrification of the line from Bridgend to Swansea, thereby completing the 47-mile main line electrification from Cardiff to Swansea.

[Geraint Davies]

Is there, therefore, an undertaking for the Government to finance it all the way from Paddington to Swansea? The Minister also seems to be suggesting the valley lines will be included, but is there now at least a commitment that the UK Government will pay from Paddington all the way through to Swansea? Is there clarification of who is paying for the valleys bit?

[Stephen Hammond]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, that discussion is ongoing. The Welsh Government have raised issues about the arrangement signed with my right hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine Greening), who was Secretary of State for Transport at the time.

Rail Investment

Geraint Davies Excerpts

Monday 16th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Justine Greening]

I do not think I could put it better myself. My hon. Friend is absolutely right.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

In 2014, we celebrate the 100th anniversary of Dylan Thomas’s birth. May I thank the Secretary of State for ensuring that in that year we can herald a new beginning to electrification to Swansea bay city region, encouraging inward investment and growth? Will she assure me that a door will be opened for more investment in transport infrastructure, including ports and roads?

[Justine Greening]

I understand how important this investment is. I think that it was Admiral insurance that wrote to me saying what a difference the investment could make to jobs in the area. It was precisely those sorts of representations I reflected on, which is why I know that the investment will make a huge difference.

Transport and the Economy

Geraint Davies Excerpts

Tuesday 28th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate.

Transport clearly affects all our constituencies. My own constituency forms part of the city of Leeds, which is the biggest financial centre outside London and, as such, as been hugely successful. People from throughout the county work there every day. That success has put huge pressures on our transport infrastructure, and all our railways and roads are heavily congested. As a result of that and the conversion of ex-employment sites in my constituency—particularly the old mills—into residential developments, more people are travelling to work, thus adding to the congestion. In the current more difficult economic climate, it is more important than ever for us to do all that we can to make it easier for people to travel, because that will help business to be active in a wider geographical area. An increase in economic activity will present real employment opportunities to people who are out of work.

Given that the Government have an unprecedented deficit to deal with—let us not forget that that is the biggest threat to economic growth—it is impressive that they have been able to announce so many major transport projects. For instance, it has been announced that in my own area, in Leeds, the M62 is to be widened. Anyone who has travelled on that road will know how congested it is. The southern access to Leeds railway station will create an opportunity for the southern part of the city to develop economically. New railway stations are being built at Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge, which will help with congestion and will also release £250 million of private investment. The electrification of the line between Manchester and Leeds will be a huge benefit: anyone who has tried to get on to a train on that line at peak times knows how horrendous the journey can be. Extra trains have also been provided on the Airedale line.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the hon. Gentleman—who is a member of the Welsh Affairs Committee—support my call for the electrification of the line from Cardiff to Swansea, and say no to any prospect that people will have to get out at Cardiff on the way to Swansea from London?

[Stuart Andrew]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Committee is considering the issue of east-west travel. I look forward to his contributions, for he is a diligent member. [Interruption.] I will not say any more at the moment. I have my own area to fight for.

HS2 means that we can now connect our great cities, create thousands of new jobs, and release desperately needed capacity. That is real investment, which can only help to increase our economic activity.

Let me now say something about the differences in spending in different parts of the country. For years, spending per head in the north has been considerably less than that in the south. Under the last Government, spending per head in Leeds was less than the national average. That difference still exists, and it is important for us to deal with it. In the many transport debates that we have had during the last couple of years, Members in all parts of the House representing all parts of the north of England have raised that concern, and we now have an opportunity to do so again.

The Yorkshire Post has led a major campaign to highlight the problem, and I praise it for its work. It has built a coalition of business leaders, transport bosses and politicians. However, although we have benefited from many recent projects, the gap is still large; and although we are starting to see a decrease, for which I thank the Government, we need to continue the trend in a high-speed way. All that we in the north, and those involved in the Yorkshire Post campaign, ask is a bit more fairness. Of course London is the powerhouse in economic terms, but extra investment is desperately needed in the north. In my constituency, the ring road is congested, the access to Leeds airport is poor and the A65 is constantly congested. Members on both sides of the House have mentioned the northern hub, and investment is certainly needed in that. On a recent Select Committee visit to Wrexham, I thought I would be green by getting the train from Wrexham to Leeds. In a car, that journey can be done in about an hour and a half. It took me four and a half hours by rail, and I had to board five different trains.

There are major businesses in Wrexham, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Hull, Newcastle and Sheffield—

--- Later in debate ---

[Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)]

It is always a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton). As a member of the Select Committee on Transport, I have a great interest in all things transport-related, from aviation and road to rail and shipping. A 21st-century Britain needs a 21st-century pragmatic transport strategy. Although politics is usually, and regrettably, played as a short-term game, transport strategies and infrastructure projects require a steady long-term commitment. It is rarely possible for such projects to deliver results within a Parliament or two, but that fact should enable us to take party politics out of the mix and unite across this House on a common goal to deliver a long-term, all-encompassing transport plan.

On a wider note, I should stress that my interest in transport policy is not born simply of my serving on the Transport Committee; it also comes from a far more regional and local perspective. On a regional level, as a Yorkshire MP I know that transport links play a vital role in bridging the north-south economic divide, which previous Governments have failed to address. This issue is vital to providing a sustainable long-term economic recovery for our country and for the Yorkshire region.

On a more local level, congestion and gridlock has an impact on the daily lives of my constituents. However, it is not just local households who struggle with such congestion, as businesses are being hit hard, too. The York northern ring road and the A64 act as a brake on local economic growth, bringing increasing congestion, more accidents and costly delays. As the Transport Committee’s second recommendation in its “Transport and the economy” report outlined, investment in this regard is “a high priority” so that we can support economic growth, locally and nationally.

Travelling through or around the city of York can be an extremely time-consuming exercise. York’s infrastructure is often seen as a nuisance, but the sad reality is that it could get a lot worse, and rather quickly too. The City of York council’s draft local development plan contains some stark warning signs. It states that

“congestion delay time across the network could triple by 2026”

and that

“even with all reasonably practical and deliverable transport investments in place, congestion delay across the network will double by 2026.”

Such a frank and honest assessment is frightening. The link between transport infrastructure and economic growth is undisputable, so my fear for York and for the rest of the country is that economic growth over the next decades will become increasingly choked by the outdated infrastructure. We may want companies and businesses to invest for the long-term future in northern cities such as York, but they will require certainty that there is a long-term plan in place to deal with congestion—a long-term plan that they can buy into.

[Geraint Davies]

In 2014, we will have the centenary of Dylan Thomas’s birth in Swansea, and we are looking forward to massive tourism investment as a result. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is important that business and the people managing these things know in advance that the electrification of lines will take place, for instance between Cardiff and Swansea, so that they can plan ahead and business has good time to make that inward investment?

[Julian Sturdy]

Absolutely. Tourism is also a key element in York’s local economy and the congestion is having an impact on the tourism level in the city. Sadly, my local authority in York would rather tinker with small-scale schemes than take the difficult long-term decisions that will safeguard the city’s economic future. As I mentioned at the outset, we need a fearless transport strategy. We need a long-term approach to investment at a national level and implementation locally. The Government’s £3 billion of capital for local road projects outside London, to be spread over the next four years, is therefore a welcome starting point, but is that the sum part of a long-term strategy for our roads? The crux of road investment is long-term, joined-up thinking.

I shall now discuss another form of transport. We have to tackle aviation issues seriously, and we face two problems. Airport capacity in and around London is at breaking point. We should be enormously proud that our capital city has remained resilient over a number of years, maintaining its position as the best place in the world to do business. Although international politics and powers have changed, London has remained at the top table, with a positive knock-on effect for the rest of the UK. However, if we refuse to expand our capacity, we risk throwing away our the capital’s crown and, again, our economy, both nationally and locally, will suffer.

Coastguard Modernisation

Geraint Davies Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

Rather than just using the radio, the new centre has unbelievable communication. The state-of-the-art technology has been put into that building at huge cost to the taxpayer, and it is a real shame that I cannot use all the buildings around the country and can only use the one.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Minister in his statement when considering the pros and cons of Milford Haven and Swansea said that “there are no operational reasons for choosing one of these sites rather than the other”, and that the building in Swansea will remain operational. He said that Swansea was switched off in a planned way to enable Milford Haven to take over, but will he accept that on a number of occasions Milford Haven has closed down in an unplanned way, that Swansea is the second busiest coastguard, that the protest involved hundreds of thousands of people compared with a much smaller protest from Milford Haven, and that people locally will rightly see this as a cynical political, rather than operational, move that will affect the risk to Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Devon?

[Mike Penning]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s disappointment. I went to Swansea and, after the driver drove through the picket, went back to speak with everyone on the picket line as well as all the staff. I fully admit that there was a planned shutdown during my visit, just as there was a planned shutdown while the refurbishment took place at Swansea, when Milford covered it for weeks and weeks. I am sorry that he was not fully informed about the number of closures that took place in the past. He is absolutely right that sometimes stations go down without warning, which is why we need a national resilience system, which we do not have today. That is the most important thing.

Swansea Coastguard

Geraint Davies Excerpts

Monday 12th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Martin Caton]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend.

People who know the coast and the waters covered by the Swansea centre cannot believe that the Government are proposing that there should be no coastguard station anywhere on the Bristol channel. These people know how dangerous a place the channel can be. It has the second highest tidal range anywhere in the world, which is potentially a fantastic resource for power generation, but also a source of increased risk to people on the sea and the coast. They have seen the increase in shipping traffic in recent years and, even more so, the massive growth in coast and marine leisure activities in the area, which has put more and more demands on our coastguard, but demands that the Swansea station has always been able to respond to.

There is a massive campaign, centred in Swansea, but involving people around the Bristol channel. It is cross-party, involving Conservative, Liberal Democrat, Labour and Plaid Cymru supporters, and many more people of no political affiliation. A “Save Swansea Coastguard” petition has so far attracted more than 100,000 signatures, and I understand that the number of individual responses to the new consultation on the changed recommendation that call for Swansea to be saved will be at least in the hundreds. Today, that campaign brought its message to the House via the River Thames.

In a letter to me on 16 December 2010, the Minister wrote:

“On the basis of an evaluation of the existing sites and the facilities available at them, it is proposed that three of the proposed sub-centres be located at Falmouth, Humber and Swansea.”

This evaluation was on the basis of a location assessment document that provided the criteria for comparing the existing stations. We can only hope that this was a comprehensive piece of work, because it was the basis for deciding which network of centres could best deliver the service on which this country’s marine and coastal safety depends.

I was therefore surprised that the Secretary of State, in announcing the changed proposal, felt able to say:

“In the light of a further review of the potential costs of vacating the existing sites in Swansea and Milford Haven which has shown that there are no financial reasons to favour either location”,

and then go on to say,

“we should retain the coastguard centre at Milford Haven rather than the centre at Swansea.”

I think that that is wrong. The Swansea centre is a freehold building with a long-term ground lease, providing long-term security of tenure. There is virtually no rent. The Milford Haven site is rented at something like £25,000 a year.

Both the Secretary of State and the Minister for Shipping have also maintained that, from an operational point of view, Milford and Swansea are level pegging, but in fact Milford and Swansea have never been equivalent in operational capacity—if an objective judgment is made. One way to make one is to employ the very location impact assessment criteria used by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency to choose the best sites for the future coastguard network.

I am grateful to have received from the MCA a copy of the document setting out those criteria. When we study it, we find that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to believe that it was used at all in deciding between Swansea and Milford. One important factor that the MCA highlights is the need to make best use of the agency’s existing property portfolio. It states:

“This is particularly the case where there are other MCA functions currently co-located with an MRCC”.

Swansea shares its centre with the MCA regional business unit and a radio site.

Another criterion to be employed, according to the MCA, is population. It states:

“Sub-centres would most sensibly be located in areas with a reasonably large population and pool of job seekers to facilitate future recruitment”,

and that is significant when considering Milford and Swansea, because in recent years the agency has found it difficult to recruit in Pembrokeshire. In fact, of the past six coastguards appointed to Milford Haven, only two have been from Pembrokeshire; the rest came from other parts of Wales, including Swansea. In addition, the location impact document states that

“it makes sense to have the sub-centres evenly spread.”

Switching from Swansea to Milford, however, makes them less evenly spread.

Finally, the agency states that

“the broad co-location of a co-ordination centre with the volunteers of the coastguard rescue service, other search and rescue partners and local regional resilience fora is a factor in the overall assessment of preferred sub-centre locations”.

Again, Swansea is the better site—even more so because so many Swansea coastguards are also volunteer rescue officers.

So, using the MCA’s own location assessment document, we find that Swansea outscores Milford on just about every criterion. Swansea is by far the better location, but a sensible location assessment process should look at other factors: the quality of communication links by road, rail and air; the comparison of facilities and space at the centres; the comparison of broadband links at the centres; and hotel space availability in case of major incident. Again, Swansea proves the better option by a long way.

I hope that in responding the Minister will be able to tell me whether those MCA criteria, and the other factors that I have suggested, were used in deciding between Swansea and Milford. He should be able to do so, because we know that the decision was made by Ministers, not by the MCA.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is my hon. Friend aware of the considerable concern of Swansea’s inward investors, not just in tourism but in industries such as wind farms, shipping and ferries, about the risk of removing Swansea? Given the growth of those industries, the value of those investments completely dwarfs the cost savings that the Minister is trying to engineer.

[Martin Caton]

My hon. Friend makes a very valid point.

As I was saying, this was a ministerial decision. Sir Alan Massey, the chief executive of the agency, told us so when he came to Swansea. He said:

“Ministers have made this judgement based on employment and that's way above my pay grade!”

But that is not exactly what Ministers have done, is it? If Milford and Swansea had been exactly equal, and I believe I have demonstrated that they are clearly not, I suppose that it would have been reasonable to have taken into account comparative unemployment in the two catchment areas. If Ministers had done that, they would have established that unemployment in the Swansea area is worse than in the Milford area, but that is not what they did. Perversely, Ministers decided to look at how many Department for Transport jobs there are in each location.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mike Penning]

We have eight minutes left, and I have taken many interventions. We would have been a lot further on had I not done so, but that would not have been fair to hon. Members.

The hon. Gentleman has made many points, and I will answer as many of them as I can. Many of them were made in the consultation process. Although I am unable to answer all the points today, when the consultation is over we will respond. All the points that the hon. Gentleman has made tonight will be part of the consultation.

I was trying to build a picture of the coastguard around the country and of the people who actually do the job. I have said to myself, and to Sir Alan Massey, the chief executive of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, and to my chief coastguard as we have gone around the country, that the Government know that 18 is not the figure that should remain and that the figure should be around about eight or nine. That was put to us in submissions from around the country. In Belfast, it was put to me that there should be eight. I asked the Belfast coastguard, which works very closely with the Swansea coastguard co-ordination centre, why it had chosen in its submission to keep Swansea and not Milford Haven. Everybody who was there will know that Belfast said that its submission was based on the cost of closing Swansea compared with the cost of closing Milford Haven.

To answer one of the points made by the hon. Gentleman, I came back to London and asked for those costs to be analysed. I felt that if we were going to do this right around the country—hon. Members should remember that we had not come to our full conclusions on which stations should stay open and which should close, and whether or not that would mean having part-time, “day manning” stations, or 24-hour stations—I needed to make sure in my own mind, for when I stand before the House and others, that the MCA’s early cost analysis on the choice of Swansea or Milford Haven was right. When the figures came back, I was told that that analysis was not right. I was told that if we were to come out of Swansea completely, it would be a very close fiscal decision between Swansea and Milford Haven.

We then completed the process, Mr Deputy Speaker—

[Geraint Davies]

You’ve been demoted, Mr Speaker.

[Mike Penning]

Sorry, Mr Speaker. We have known each other for many years, and I am sure you will not take offence. Oh, dear.

We looked at the main concerns, which included 24-hour stations and local knowledge. In the Secretary of State’s statement, we accepted those two points. We felt that leaving the station open as what I, as an ex-fireman, would call a “day manning” station was not right and we had to come up with a formula that would allow us to come down to the numbers that we needed to come down to while having the national resilience that we were looking for and a maritime operations centre or headquarters that could feed out in major incidents. So we made two decisions. The first was to come down to the key 24-hour stations and to have one MOC, not two, which actually will give us enough money to keep stations open 24 hours a day.

The second decision was obvious. It was obvious to me when we were doing the work that, if we were worried about topography, as I call it, being an ex-fireman, and local knowledge, which was the general concern, we ought to look at the pairs—or the twins or whatever we want to call them—which cover for each other regularly. That is how they have been structured. We did not have national resilience, which is why the coastguard co-ordination centres were paired off. They covered for each other. Some were paired off quite arbitrarily. For instance, Belfast was paired with the Clyde. But they did it and it worked. We decided that, if those were the criteria for pairing, we would take one of the pairs away. They are in the consultation now because initially the proposals did not include Swansea. However, having decided to move one of the pairs, logically we had to consult on Swansea and Milford Haven, as well as Liverpool and Holyhead—Liverpool was in the consultation with Belfast and the plan had been to close Holyhead—the 24-hour centre in northern Scotland and the Western Isles and the single MOC. That was the basis of the consultation now.