Local Government Finance Bill

George Howarth Excerpts

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Annette Brooke]

At this stage, we are debating, and I hope all trying to be constructive about, the direction in which we would like the Bill to go, and it is important to be constructive, rather than to look for an immediate political hit.

Returning to the point I was making—

[Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)]

rose—

[Annette Brooke]

I have given way several times, and I shall proceed in order to retain the flow of my speech. There are concerns, and it is right that we discuss how we address them.

A further concern is how the burden of the proposal is to be shared between the billing authority and any other authority that might be involved, such as a district or county council. I give the example of East Dorset district council, which last year had a revenue support grant of just £29 per head, meaning that it has very little flexibility with which to pick up any extra costs. So this is a matter not only of working with other councils, but of coming up with a clear solution to the issue.

I share the concern about whether the scheme can be introduced within the proposed time frame, which looks tight. The major software companies say that it cannot be done, but we know the timetable we are on: July for the Bill, October for the regulations and then the consultation on schemes. Can it be done? I want Ministers to address those questions and to give more thought to how the issue is going to be handled.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hancock]

I agree entirely. Some hon. Members like me, have close-knit communities that are right next to communities in other local authorities. People on one side of the road will have a different scheme from those on the other side. It will be horrendously difficult to explain why one scheme prevails in Fareham and another in Portsmouth. Indeed, the hon. Member for Meon Valley (George Hollingbery) will have great problems, given the different districts that his constituency abuts. I therefore ask Ministers to consider seriously coming back on Report with something that shows they have heard the cry from local authorities. It is heartfelt and not just for effect. The Local Government Association has not done all that work to sustain its arguments without a great deal of effort.

In the spirit of trying to be constructive, I hope that if we are to have a day—or even two—on Report, creative thinking in the Department will soften some of the provision’s effects. Otherwise, I shall vote against it not only tonight but on Third Reading.

[Mr George Howarth]

rose—

[The Temporary Chair (Miss Anne McIntosh)]

I call Gerald Howarth.

[Mr Howarth]

George—not only a different party, but an entirely different politics, Miss McIntosh.

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Portsmouth South (Mr Hancock). Both he and the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) made a plea for constructive suggestions. I tried to intervene on the hon. Lady’s contribution with a constructive suggestion, but I think she thought that I was going to be disagreeable, and she refused to accept my intervention.

Many hon. Members have mentioned the consequences of protecting pensioners in the overall scheme, and I will not labour the point. It is important to say at the outset that nobody on the Opposition Benches and, I am sure, elsewhere, disagrees with the principle that pensioners should be protected. It is an important principle, to which we all subscribe. The difficulty that we are trying to address is not the Government’s decree that pensioners should be protected but their failure to deal with the consequences of that in the context of a 10% overall cut.

Some contributions have referred to the impact. For example, the hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms) wanted more information about how the proposal would work in practice. I would like to rely on a briefing that the special interest group of municipal authorities—SIGOMA—has given me. It is a local government representative group, but of a particular set of local authorities. It concludes that, to protect pensioners’ council tax credit, the rest of council tax payers nationally will face a reduction of 17% rather than 10%. We are talking about averages, and we discussed the problem of averages earlier. The range means that, at the bottom end, the figure will be 13.4%, and at the high end, it will be 25.2%. Those who have concerns should take those figures into account.

I will talk about Knowsley shortly. It is a Knowsley problem—there is a distinct flavour of Knowsley to it—but every hon. Member will be confronted with it if the scheme is implemented in its current form.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the scheme will disproportionately affect constituencies such as his and mine in Durham, which not only have many people in receipt of council tax benefit, but a growing elderly population?

[Mr Howarth]

Yes. There might occasionally be disputes about the scale, but every demographer recognises that people are living longer and that there are therefore many more elderly people in the system.

[Mr Syms]

The right hon. Gentleman is making a powerful point, but is it not more likely that, rather than having a cut of 15% or 17% across the board, the numbers will be more limited, so some people will have a cut of 100% because not as many will qualify?

[Mr Howarth]

The hon. Gentleman is right. That underscores the point that he and others made earlier: to some extent, we are taking a leap in the dark. Several hon. Members have said that one of the difficulties with local government finance is that, when you change it, the impact is unpredictable. I do not need to rehearse the history of the poll tax to show that. The position that we are considering is exactly the same in that it is unpredictable and volatile.

[John Healey]

The effect is uncertain, but it is possible to make some projections. In my authority of Rotherham—a member of the SIGOMA group—if the pensioners are protected in the way in which the Government clearly believe that they will be, everyone else who is currently entitled to support, including many who work but get low wages, and therefore require and have a right to that support, will take a cut of not 10% but 19.5%.

[Mr Howarth]

My right hon. Friend makes a strong point, which I hope to tackle shortly.

Currently, many people, especially young people, have to accept jobs, often well below the level of their qualifications, on a minimum wage, at the same time as having to forge an independent existence from their families. I fear that they, or young couples with families, in which the principal earner is on a low wage, will be most affected and put in an impossible position, unless the discretionary powers that the Bill describes are spelled out clearly so that the outcomes cannot be arbitrary. We deserve to know at least what the Government are planning, and that should appear on the face of the Bill. Who are the classes of people? There are vague descriptions in schedule 4, but nothing is spelled out clearly.

I said I wanted to talk about Knowsley and the Liverpool city region. I am indebted to the director of finance in Knowsley for the impartial briefing he has given to me—it is a Labour authority, but he has provided advice on the basis of his financial experience and qualifications. His view is that the 10% cut combined with pensioner protection means that the benefit of other claimants will have to be cut by 18%. If there is provision for others in a local scheme—they could be singled out or ring-fenced—that 18% cut could increase to as much as a 100%, because people could be excluded altogether, as the hon. Member for Poole said.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that those same people will also be affected by the Welfare Reform Bill? For example, some will lose money under the under-occupancy rule in addition to their losing their council tax reduction. Many such people are in work.

[Mr Howarth]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. If he bears with me, I will cover precisely that point shortly in the context of the Liverpool city region, but I am sure the same trend applies in his constituency.

[Mr Syms]

Another question is whether we can differentiate council tax payers from non-council tax payers. What happens when there is a split household, in which one person is a pensioner and one is not? What happens when someone becomes a pensioner in-year? There will be so many months when they are not a pensioner and so many when they are. That also needs to be explained.

[Mr Howarth]

The hon. Gentleman, who is always fair and reasonable, makes a fair and reasonable point. I hope that the Ministers, who represent the two parties in the coalition, will at least take notice of the concerns that have been expressed from the Government Back Benches, even if they do not take notice of what Opposition Members say.

The Office for National Statistics estimates that pensioner take-up of Knowsley council tax benefit could be as low as 53%, but there could be a significant increase in take-up as a result of a localised scheme, which would place a disproportionate burden on other categories of people. If a greater number of pensioners take up the scheme, which is perfectly possible, the 18% I mentioned could be still higher.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) has been patient, so I shall speak about the effects of other measures. It is important that the changes are not taken entirely in isolation. We will talk about welfare reforms tomorrow, but a series of measures will combine to hit some of the poorest in society.

When Labour was in government, I remember the Opposition hammering us by saying, “Well, the Institute for Fiscal Studies says something different from what the Government say.” If that is good for Conservatives and Liberal Democrats when they are in opposition, it is good for Labour Members. “The Impact of Austerity Measures on Households with Children”—an IFS report published this month and produced on behalf of the Family and Parenting Institute—found that the planned changes in the tax and benefit system, including those to council tax benefit, will hit the incomes of families with children the hardest. The IFS estimates that the measures will increase child poverty by 2014-15, with the poorest families being around 10% worse off.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Howarth]

I will give way in a minute. I just want to finish my point. The measure in the Bill combined with other measures will have a devastating effect on some of the poorest families in our communities.

[Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)]

This morning at the Select Committee on Education, I asked the Secretary of State for Education whether his Department had done an impact assessment of the benefit changes on children’s welfare and educational prospects. He said that as far as he was concerned, that had not been done but it should be done. Is that a good idea?

[Mr Howarth]

My hon. Friend makes his point well with his experience of that Committee sitting. I absolutely agree with the sentiment behind his question.

I want to return to what the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole said on that point. She is respected on both sides of the Committee for her long and distinguished record of campaigning on behalf of children. I hope she reflects on the fact that child poverty is likely to increase because of the combined effects of the Bill and the other measures that are currently trundling their way unevenly through the benefits system.

Liberal Democrats who have spoken in the debate, and the hon. Member for Poole, made sensible suggestions to get around that problem. The problem, as many Opposition Members and others have highlighted, is that we are being asked to support a measure that contains massive uncertainty. If we get it wrong, some of the poorest in our communities will suffer the most.

My intention in speaking to the amendments is to support amendment 79, which is in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford), amendment 85, which is in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), and new clause 11, which is in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones), but I have a serious suggestion that I believe would command support on both sides of the Committee. I suggest that the provisions should be delayed until they can be aligned with the universal credit system. At that point, a realistic estimate can be made of the impact of the combined changes on those poorest families. That is the only way in which we can ensure that there is fairness in the system, and that those who stand to lose the most are not the most penalised.

I should tell Ministers, one of whom will respond to the debate shortly, that all the evidence from reputable sources suggests that the poorest people in our communities will suffer the most, and that child poverty will increase. I am sure they do not want that to happen. My suggestion is therefore reasonable. I doubt they are briefed to accept it today, but I hope they will reflect on it.

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

We are in the same position as we were in last week, in that we are discussing a measure to which most Members agree in principle. Perhaps not all Members agreed on business rates, but we are discussing consequences.

My understanding—we have been told—is that the sums show that the measure balances itself out nationally, whether at £420 million or £500 million.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Stunell]

On the first point, I agree that it was due to the fact that council tax doubled while Labour was in government. On the second point, as I shall demonstrate—I hope that this expands on the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) made—the Bill not only deals with deficit reduction but creates opportunities for local authorities to collect more council tax in other areas. I will come to that in a minute or two.

Taken overall, our reforms will give local authorities a stake in providing support for council tax, which they have not had before, and will strengthen the incentive for local authorities to support residents back into employment, which in turn will reduce demand for support. Localisation gives local authorities significant control over how that reduction in funding is achieved, and it enables councils to design schemes reflecting local priorities.

I want to pick up on a point made a couple of times about whether the Secretary of State would approve schemes. The Secretary of State is not required to approve schemes, and local authorities do not have to submit schemes for approval. The important points are that the schemes should be transparent and that local authorities should be accountable to the law and local areas but not to the Secretary of State.

Amendments 79, 80 and 85 would, in effect, guarantee that there would be no reduction in funding to local authorities and leave authorities with no plan to reduce that funding. In the context of the wider deficit reduction programme, that is neither affordable nor sustainable.

[Mr George Howarth]

rose—

[Mr Raynsford]

rose—

[Andrew Stunell]

I give way to the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth).

[Mr Howarth]

The Minister just asserted that the Secretary of State does not have any locus in this system. Will he explain, therefore, why paragraph 2(8) of schedule 4 reads:

“The Secretary of State may by regulations prescribe other requirements for schemes”?

What is that if not the power to intervene?

[Andrew Stunell]

It is a power to intervene but the Secretary of State does not propose to intervene on schemes. [Hon. Members: “Why’s it in there then?] The Secretary of State always has reserve powers. Right hon. and hon. Members have asked what is the system of checking, of feedback and of amendment to the scheme, and that is always provided for in regulations. That is the basis on which we are proceeding.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

I agree, and that will have a disproportionate effect on northern councils such as County Durham. It will also be a complete nightmare for local authorities in London. I know that the Bill allows for data sharing between local councils and the Department for Work and Pensions, but given the movement of people in London it will be very difficult indeed for councils to chase people up.

What are the options open to councils such as Durham, given the 10% cut, to make up the difference? The Minister and the hon. Member for Bradford East said that it would be made up by charging a different rate on second homes.

[Mr George Howarth]

My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) just made the point that councils could be bogged down in appeals. Does my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) believe that it is also conceivable that the Bill could be deemed discriminatory under the Human Rights Act 1998? The Bill contains a declaration—as do all Bills, for purposes of the Human Rights Act—that the Secretary of State says that

“the provisions of the Local Government Finance Bill are compatible with the Convention rights.”

Does my hon. Friend think that that might slightly overstate the case?

[Mr Jones]

My right hon. Friend raises a very good point, because we will have different schemes in different areas. I wonder whether there will be challenges to the criteria that are used to draw them up. The hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole said that various equality Acts applied to the measure. They may well do, but that is not stated in the Bill. If people who find that they are not in receipt of council tax benefit after the measure is introduced feel that their local authority has discriminated against them, that will doubtless lead to court cases. Again, the costs will fall on local authorities, and again, no doubt the Secretary of State will be nowhere to be seen and will blame councils for not implementing the scheme properly.

The hole could be plugged by further cutting benefits for those who are in work and others. Second homes give another method—obviously, there are a plethora of second homes in Bradford.