Windsor Framework

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

Tuesday 19th November 2024 Westminster Hall

[Hilary Benn]

I hope it will not come as a surprise to the hon. Gentleman if I say that I agree with him. Complaining and ignoring does not get us very far. He anticipates what I am about to come on to: the progress we have seen as a result of the Windsor framework.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

I thank the Secretary of State for getting to the point where he talks about progress, but I remind him, as he will have heard this morning, that every Ulster MP in Westminster Hall today rails against the fundamental impediment to our constitutional position and the overarching framework that has been imposed upon us against our will. But we worked on solutions and reached arrangements and agreements with the Government in “Safeguarding the Union” about ensuring the movement of goods within our UK internal market, which he supported when he was in opposition, and those agreements need to be honoured. While deadlines have slipped, there is a huge imperative for him and his Government to respond appropriately and earnestly implement the very things that saw a return to devolution in Northern Ireland.

[Hilary Benn]

I have great respect for the right hon. Gentleman, and he and I have had many discussions about progress on implementing the commitments made in “Safeguarding the Union”. He can see the progress that has been made, and he and I have discussed issues where there is work in progress.

By the way, the original protocol, which had many flaws and difficulties, and the Windsor framework negotiated by the previous Government, which represents a considerable improvement, were both approved democratically by this Parliament. The hon. and learned Member for North Antrim argues that they were imposed from Brussels, but it was this Parliament that decided the way to reconcile the choices—impossible choices, in a way—that leaving the European Union created. Frankly, I would not have started from here, as I think he well understands, but this is a consequence of a decision taken by the British people, and Parliament decided to put these arrangements in place. To reject the idea that there is an issue that needs to be addressed is not the responsible thing to do, and therefore the Windsor framework represented a considerable step forward.

Police Funding

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

Tuesday 5th November 2024 Westminster Hall

[Alex Easton (North Down) (Ind)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered funding for policing.

I wish I could present a more optimistic picture of police funding across our United Kingdom to the House. Unfortunately, that is not the case. No discussion on policing should overlook the contributions of Sir Robert Peel, the founding father of modern policing. Although we have made significant progress since the establishment of the Metropolitan Police Service in London in September 1829, there remain critical challenges that we must address and I fear that, without adequate funding, we are in danger of regressing.

The significance of police funding cannot be overstated, particularly when considering the Peelian principles, which emphasise the prevention of crime and the maintenance of public order. The principles remind us that the true measure of policing effectiveness lies not in the physical presence of police officers, but in the absence of crime and disorder. Adequate funding is essential to uphold those ideals and ensure that our police service can effectively serve and protect their communities.

Where do we stand? I will begin with an overview of the United Kingdom, focusing specifically on the Police Service of Northern Ireland. It is with deep gratitude that I represent North Down in this House, though it pains me to acknowledge that my constituency lacks a fully operational, full-time police station open to the public. Not one member of the public can report a crime in a police station in my constituency, because they are not open.

Using Eurostat, we can compare international policing strengths, with England and Wales ranked 29th, Scotland 23rd and Northern Ireland 16th. As of 31 March 2024, our police force stands at 170,500 full-time equivalent police officers. While that marks a 10% increase from 2003, when the Home Office first began its recording of these figures, it still represents a 0.7% decline from the peak numbers of 2010. In Scotland, there are 16,536 full-time equivalent officers, a figure 2% lower than last year and 7% lower than the peak numbers recorded in 2013.

As I come to Northern Ireland, I will pause, as we are in the season of remembrance, and take a moment to honour those across the UK who have made the ultimate sacrifice in police service for us all. I pay tribute to the 300 members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, following on from the Belfast police in 1836, who lost their lives, and the 312 officers of the Royal Ulster Constabulary deservedly awarded the George Cross, along with their 370 gallantry awards and 712 awards for distinguished service. We remember the 16 members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland who have been killed in the line of duty.

It is with deep concern that I must place on record that the Police Service of Northern Ireland has been underfunded since 2010. While the Northern Ireland block grant has increased by nearly 50% since the 2010-11 financial year, reaching approximately £14.2 billion for this financial year, the police budget has unfortunately decreased from £903 million to £892 million. To put that in perspective, funding for health has increased by 89% in Northern Ireland and funding for justice has increased by 8%, while policing has faced a 3% cut. Benjamin Franklin, a founding father of the United States, wisely noted:

“If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.”

In the context of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, accurate planning reveals that there is a significant need for funding, with £166 million required for 2025-26, a further £235 million for 2026-27 and a further £307 million for 2027-28.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate and on advancing his argument so expertly. When he acknowledges the projected pressures that police will face in the coming years, does he recognise that the Budget made no reference to the McCloud judgment, to the holiday pay issue, to legacy liability or to the recent PSNI data breach, which amounts to £750 million of unfunded pressures that will put even more difficulty on PSNI, the Ministry of Justice and the Northern Ireland Office?

[Alex Easton]

I totally agree with the right hon. Member: what we have does not even touch the amount of funding that the PSNI needs to find, and he raises the most valuable points.

These figures underscore the urgent requirement to address the ongoing issue of structural underfunding. I acknowledge the £37 million in additional security funding allocated from the Budget, as well as the investment in the Paramilitary Crime Taskforce. While those measures are welcome, let me be unequivocal: they do not adequately address the underlying pressures facing our police service in Northern Ireland.

Don Quixote reminds us that the truth of the pudding is in the eating, so let me now present to the House the stark truth of policing in Northern Ireland. Neighbourhood policing is diminishing; response times for non-emergency calls are excessively prolonged; the capacity to investigate crimes has been reduced; inquiry offices are closing and the ability of the police to support partner organisations is compromised.

However, I am supported by listening to policing colleagues on the frontline, committed to proposing solutions alongside dialogue on those challenges. A comprehensive approach to address those issues includes supporting the business case for maximising the Police College’s potential over the next three years, aiming for 7,000 police officers and 2,572 staff by 2028. It is important to note that those figures remain significantly below the Patten commission’s recommendation of 7,500 police officers. The funding required for the initiative is £8 million in year one, £25 million in year two and £47 million in year three.

To put it bluntly, any viable solution must be threefold. First, the monitoring round must address the £37 million funding gap. Secondly, there must be an increase in the budget baseline to establish sustainable funding. Finally, we need approval of the business case to enable police headcounts to recover to previous levels. It is entirely appropriate for the chief constable of the police service to accurately highlight the current position, and he has my unwavering support, along with that of many others.

There is no doubt that the Justice Minister faces a crucial set of questions regarding the adequacy of the current budget allocation in the light of recent crime rates and increased public safety concerns. First, how can the budget be considered sufficient when community safety, recruitment and training—essential components for maintaining public trust and safety—are insufficiently prioritised? The current funding allocation leaves much to be desired, and as a result the PSNI’s ability to effectively serve the community is hindered. Furthermore, the limited resources allocated for community safety directly impact the PSNI’s ability to perform its duties, which raises the urgent need for accountability.

An explanation is required as to why public safety is not being treated as a top priority, especially when the current funding does not reflect that crucial need. Sadly, it appears that the voices of the public, of the police unions, of community leaders and of political parties, all calling for adequate resources, are not being heard sufficiently by either the Ministry of Justice or the Minister. I challenge the Government to be open to a comprehensive review of policing budgets. That is essential to ensure the PSNI’s mandate, but I must be honest and place on record that they have fallen short in that regard.

It is unsustainable to have approximately only 4,500 deployed officers in Northern Ireland. The reality we face is that the PSNI loses around 40 officers each month due to retirements and departures, while the number of graduate officers fails to keep pace with that attrition.

--- Later in debate ---

[Fleur Anderson]

The need for more funding is understood, which is why I was glad that more money was delivered to Northern Ireland in last week’s Budget. It was good news for Northern Ireland. The Budget delivered a record £18.2 billion for the Northern Ireland Executive for 2025-26—the largest settlement in real terms in the history of devolution. That includes a £1.5 billion top-up through Barnett consequentials for 2025-26: £1.2 billion for day-to-day spending and £270 million for capital investment. What will be done with that money? It is for the Executive to set a budget for all Northern Ireland Departments and for the Department of Justice to allocate funding to the PSNI. How that funding is used is an operational matter for the PSNI and the Chief Constable.

The PSNI estate—police stations—was raised by the hon. Member for North Down. The allocation of that money and questions of whether police stations are open or not are entirely operational matters for the Chief Constable, who is accountable to the Northern Ireland Policing Board.

Paramilitarism has been mentioned. The effort to tackle paramilitarism is led by the Northern Ireland Executive’s “Tackling Paramilitary Activity, Criminality and Organised Crime” programme, which was established after the “Fresh Start” agreement. The programme is working to tackle the presence of paramilitaries through evidence-based early interventions, targeted law enforcement measures and initiatives that provide direct support to help build safer communities who are resilient to paramilitarism. The UK Government provide 50% of the funding—£8 million a year—for the cross-Executive programme for tackling paramilitary activity and organised crime. As was announced in the spending review, that has been secured through to March 2026.

One strand of this work is the Paramilitary Crime Task Force, the PCTF, which is a multi-agency taskforce including officers from the PSNI, the National Crime Agency and His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. Over the period from April 2023 to March 2024, the PCTF made 107 disruptions and 83 arrests, charged and reported 115 people and conducted 175 searches. The PCTF seized drugs with a street value of more than £1.3 million and illicit tobacco with a street value of more than £2.8 million, along with 41 firearms and weapons, of which eight were explosive devices.

The Executive programme for tackling paramilitary activity and organised crime has provided PSNI with £5.6 million in 2023-24, and the same for 2024-25. PSNI police numbers have been raised several times—rightly so. A well-staffed and resourced PSNI is vital to the success and stability of Northern Ireland. I am aware that the PSNI restarted recruitment earlier this year, and that the Chief Constable has been speaking to the Department of Justice to discuss funding to allow that to continue. Recruitment and retention are absolutely vital to delivering effective policing. Policing in Northern Ireland, apart from national security, is a devolved matter, and police numbers are a matter for the Department of Justice and the Chief Constable. As of 1 October 2024, PSNI has 6,303 full-time officers. I am aware that the Chief Constable aims to lift officer numbers to 7,000 within three years. That will be challenging, but I understand that he is speaking to the Department of Justice about it and we will continue to support him.

The hon. Member for North Down will be aware of the Executive’s draft programme for government, which was published in September. I note the programme’s recognition that PSNI officer numbers are low, and welcome the Executive’s commitment to grow police officer numbers to 7,500 in line with New Decade, New Approach. As I have said, last week’s Budget delivered the largest settlement in real terms in the history of devolution, including that £1.5 billion top-up through the Barnett consequentials. The money is not ringfenced, and the Northern Ireland Department of Finance will work with Executive Departments to allocate it based on budget pressures.

I welcome the fact that the data breach was raised by the right hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson). In response to the August 2023 PSNI data breach, the PSNI worked closely with the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland to fully understand the cost implications of its response to the very serious incident. The UK Government granted an initial, non-repayable reserve claim of £15 million after the data breach. That was communicated to the Department of Finance and intended to assist in addressing the challenges to the PSNI budget caused by the data breach. In February 2024, however, the Department of Finance confirmed that the funding was not required and PSNI costs could be absorbed within the NI budget. No additional funding was required from the UK Government, but we continue to work together in ways like that to ensure that policing can continue.

[Gavin Robinson]

Would the Minister accept that that was in relation to the likely fine from the Information Commissioner’s Office? The fine was greatly reduced, but there is no cover or resource allocation for the level of compensation that will be due to the thousands of officers that were involved. That figure is at £240 million.

[Fleur Anderson]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for raising that ongoing issue, but I will need to conclude now. I agree with the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart) that ending violence against women and girls must be a priority in policing. Altogether, it has been demonstrated that the positive steps Northern Ireland has taken to become a more peaceful and prosperous place are ongoing, and reflect the commitment of communities from across Northern Ireland to build a safer place to live and work. The work of the PSNI, alongside other security partners, is a crucial component in the delivery of a safer Northern Ireland. I am delighted that the Government have been able to increase the additional security funding provided to PSNI to allow it to continue to do that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the leader of the Democratic Unionist party.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

We look forward to a positive conclusion to those discussions next week. As the Minister knows, both representatives from the Mid South West region growth deal and the Causeway Coast and Glens growth deal are in Westminster today. Will the Minister acknowledge that, in working with businesses and in trying to encourage greater trade within our own country, the appointment of a chair of Intertrade UK was an important first step, but work needs to start, the terms of reference need to be set and businesses need to be able to engage with that body established to support trade within our country?

[Fleur Anderson]

I agree with the right hon. Member that Intertrade UK needs to get going with its work to encourage investment between all of the regions and nations of the UK. It is very important to set the terms of reference, and we are working with the organisation as fast as we can now that the chair is in their place

[Gavin Robinson]

I thank the Minister for her reply. She will know from discussions with her Cabinet colleagues that decisions have been taken to delay the agreement on parcels, to delay the agreement on customs, and to avoid taking the decision on UK-wide labelling. Myriad other decisions were also made and supported by this House, including Labour Members, that are required to be implemented from the “Safeguarding the Union” document. She will know about the interface between trade and constitutional politics, so I urge her to engage with the Secretary of State, the Paymaster General and others within the Cabinet to get on and deliver what businesses and the people of Northern Ireland need?

[Fleur Anderson]

We are not the only Ministers who came into office three months ago to have faced all sorts of decisions that should have been taken by the previous Government. We have taken up those decisions on parcels and on every aspect that the right hon. Member mentions. He is right to raise them, because we do need to work on them to ensure that we protect the UK internal market and that we create the best possible regime for business.

Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2024 Westminster Hall

[Robin Swann]

I thank the hon. Member for his point, and I will come to it later when I quote him in regards to the concerns that were raised when Mr Kinahan resigned.

On Mr Kinahan’s appointment, the leader of the Ulster Unionist party at that stage, Dr Steve Aiken, said that it

“will be warmly welcomed by all veterans and the wider armed forces community across all of Northern Ireland”,

that Mr Kinahan would

“be a first-rate advocate for the many thousands here who have served”

and that

“by his appointment we have at long last joined the rest of the United Kingdom in providing that very necessary representation.”

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member on securing this debate. Having heard the comments of the former leaders of the DUP and the Ulster Unionists, it is important to place on record our appreciation for the work that Danny engaged in. He did not work in a party political way, but rose to the occasion as a veterans-first commissioner and a champion for veterans. Having worked with him throughout his time in the role, I think the hon. Member will come on to some important deficits and deficiencies, in terms of not only how the role was hampered and constrained by the Northern Ireland Office and the appointing Department, but how it lacked the resource that would have allowed the commissioner to engage properly with anything more than about a 10th of veterans in Northern Ireland.

[Robin Swann]

I thank the right hon. Member for his intervention—believe it or not, I was going to quote him later as well, but he has pre-empted that. Trust me, we are making cross-community representations to the Minister and the Northern Ireland Office.

Moving on from the warm words of congratulation on Mr Kinahan’s appointment, we are here today because, unfortunately, on 5 September—four years after the role was created, and having been reappointed for a second term—Mr Kinahan issued a statement announcing his resignation, which came as a surprise to some. It said:

“I can confirm that I have today resigned from my position as Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner.

Following an open and frank conversation with the Secretary of State, I have sadly concluded that I cannot provide the independent voice that veterans require.

There is a feeling among some veterans in Northern Ireland that they have been forgotten and that they do not enjoy the same protections as their counterparts in Great Britain.

Veterans in Northern Ireland have particular needs and concerns which need to be addressed by the UK Government, which I have made very clear in our discussions.”

In closing, Danny said:

“Finally, I would like to place on record my gratitude to all those who have placed their trust in me and assisted me with my work over the last four years. I will continue to work in their interests where I can.”

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Fleur Anderson)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd. This is my first time responding to a Westminster Hall debate for the Government and I am delighted that it is on this issue; my grandfather was from Northern Ireland and served in the British Army, so this debate is very close to my heart. I am so grateful for his service and the service of all veterans.

I congratulate the hon. Member for South Antrim (Robin Swann) on securing this important debate—his first Westminster Hall debate as well—and on his work to improve support for veterans in Northern Ireland over many years, including reconvening the Armed Forces Liaison Forum when he was Minister of Health for Northern Ireland. I know he is deeply committed to ensuring that veterans in his constituency, and indeed right across the UK, receive all the recognition they deserve and the support to which they are entitled. It is a commitment shared by this Government and, I am sure, by all in this Chamber—

[Gavin Robinson]

I appreciate that the Minister is here today and speaks with a personal connection to this story. She will know that the commitments in NDNA were important and represented work done in the Defence Select Committee and through private Members’ Bills to make sure veterans in Northern Ireland had a strong voice, as their counterparts across the United Kingdom do. She should also know that the last number of years have proven very difficult for veterans, with the closure of the VSO and with the feeling that they are not treated the same as their counterparts across the UK. Does she understand that the most important initial step she could take would be to confirm that the NIO will advertise the position of Veterans Commissioner? Doing that now would indicate a commitment to that support.

[Peter Dowd (in the Chair)]

Order. This is a half-hour debate. I accept that people are intervening on a very important matter, but I ask Members to be careful and considerate with their interventions in such debates.

Northern Ireland City Deals

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

Wednesday 9th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn]

I will indeed be that champion. May I take this opportunity to congratulate my hon. Friend on assuming the leadership of her party? We all wish her well in that endeavour. I also express our appreciation of the former leader of the SDLP, my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood), who is sat next to her. Let us be frank: the truth is that when bad news is forced on the Government, it is unwelcome, whenever it is announced.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

The Secretary of State will know that city deals were talked of for a long time, but it was in 2017 that the Democratic Unionist party got a commitment from Government—a commitment that would not just impact us but be of benefit to everyone in Northern Ireland, creating opportunities for growth in cities and regions throughout Northern Ireland in a phased, programmed, sensible and strategic way. The decision to pause both the Causeway Coast and Glens and the Mid South West region deals was unnecessary, and I think the Secretary of State accepts that. Given that no arrangements were in place to agree the necessary financial requirements, there was no need to pause the deals because of a lack of finance.

As I think the Secretary of State acknowledges, this decision places in jeopardy the matched funding from private investors, as well as the ability to proceed with the food and drug development centre in Coleraine, the Enniskillen bypass, and myriad other important and strategically significant proposals. As we wait until 30 October, it would inject confidence if this Government were to say that they recognise the importance and value of city deals; are determined to deliver on these aspirations, which will be key regional economic drivers in Northern Ireland; and recognise, as I think the Secretary of State does, that pausing these proposals was foolish.

[Hilary Benn]

I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman’s last proposition. As I have already indicated to the House, given the fiscal inheritance, the prudent thing is for the Government to say, “We need to look at a range of things in the round.” I entirely recognise that this decision is unwelcome to many people. The best thing we can do is give certainty as quickly as possible, which would assist, but I entirely understand the practical difficulties that this decision creates in the meantime. I will learn more about that when I meet the chief executives of the deal areas.

The House is united, though, on our shared desire to maximise economic growth in Northern Ireland. This week, we have had a really good example of that with the announcement of the very significant order that has gone to Wrightbus. This is a company that nearly went bust; then investment came in, and it is now helping to deliver the bus transportation of the future from a factory that I and many other Members have had the chance to visit. There are a lot of good things happening in Northern Ireland, and we need to build on them.

Patrick Finucane Murder

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

Wednesday 11th September 2024 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn]

For one family, this now provides a process, but I am very conscious that many other families will say, “What about us?” That is why we need to find the most effective means to get to the truth, and that is part of the reason, as I have explained, why I decided that we would not get rid of the commission. I have met Sir Declan Morgan a number of times, and I have confidence in his ability to do his work. We have to find practical means of providing answers to all of those families, so that they feel their story can be told and they can get what they have been looking for. The point I wish to emphasise again to the House is that this particular case is exceptional for the reasons I set out in my statement.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

One of the things the Secretary of State did not outline in his statement was that the Supreme Court considered whether it was appropriate not to proceed with a public inquiry, and that the Supreme Court agreed, provided that an investigation could satisfy article 2 compliance. He has said today that the ICRIR not only has his trust and confidence, but has the ability to perform such tasks for other families. So when he rightly says that families across Northern Ireland will ask the question, “What about us?”, so too do I, because the most exceptional circumstance about this is the exceptionality of treatment. Over 1,200 families still have neither truth nor justice, and if the plans enacted last year continue, they will never get justice. I would ask him, in repudiating the ICRIR and suggesting today that it is not an appropriate mechanism for the Finucane family—and I do not besmirch their grief or their quest for truth and justice—but it is appropriate for every other, how can he honestly look victims in the eye and say that there is not a hierarchy?

[Hilary Benn]

There should not be a hierarchy, and the right hon. Gentleman and I shared reservations with—indeed opposition to—the legacy Act because it did cut off lots of routes to justice. In the end, I think families should have the opportunity to avail themselves of inquests and civil cases, but the commission is now in existence. The honest answer to his question is that in this particular case, and this does not apply to any of the others, the Government of our country made a commitment twice—once at Weston Park, and secondly by the then Secretary of State—to establish a public inquiry. I think it is right and proper, the Government in the past having made that commitment, that we honour it, and that is the answer I would give him.

Oral Answers to Questions

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

Wednesday 24th July 2024 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his appointment. The reasons for the Government’s decision about Harland and Wolff were clearly set out in the written ministerial statement that my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary laid before the House. Harland and Wolff is now talking to its main supporters, Riverstone, about potential additional financial support. We are committed to shipbuilding across the United Kingdom, including in Northern Ireland, and as that written ministerial statement made clear, Harland and Wolff is an essential part of the £1.6 billion contract for the fleet solid support ships.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

4. What steps he plans to take to support public services in Northern Ireland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Fleur Anderson)]

I am delighted to be appointed to this role, and I look forward to working closely with Executive Ministers to see public services transformed in Northern Ireland. I will be meeting the First and Deputy First Ministers tomorrow in Stormont, as well as the Northern Ireland Health Minister, Mike Nesbitt.

[Gavin Robinson]

I welcome the Minister of State and Secretary of State to their positions. I am delighted to see them in post, and I know they are committed to effective public services and stability of the institutions in Northern Ireland. May I caution that in a number of responses that we have received from the Front Bench, we are having a recurring conversation that the fiscal framework that was announced back in December on an interim basis does not solve the problems we have? Even the stabilisation money that was agreed back in December has already been forecast as necessary to sustain pay in Northern Ireland. Will the Minister of State engage earnestly not only with what the Government—both of this hue and the previous Government—have been saying for the past six months, and recognise that to provide good public services in Northern Ireland we need not only to sustain, but to transform?

[Fleur Anderson]

I agree with the right hon. Member. Money is allocated specifically for transformation of public services to improve service delivery outcomes. In Northern Ireland, three in 10 people are on an NHS waiting list; that number is one in 10 here in England. That figure needs to be transformed for health outcomes.

I will be talking about funding when I meet Executive Ministers, but I will also be talking about other ways in which our doors, and those of other Government Ministers, too, are open. We are determined to work together to transform public services.